Jay 37,373 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 So did the FSM Superman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Spock's narration, at the end of TWOK, is essential. It's as much a part of the whole listening experience, as the score is. Sally, why are sittin' around moping, sittin' around hoping? Just listen to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Rhino did it first. And as far as I recall, the FSM doesn't even offer the full eight minute track on the dialogue version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said: If you hoped Spock's narration in the finale to TWOK would vanish in an expansion, think again. If you thought Scatman Crothers' song from Twilight Zone: The Movie would finally be gone from expansion, you were mistaken. Why are people so wedded to this idea that dialogue has a place to be dubbed over scores on album that you can't even get rid of it in expansions? At least the Rhino Superman gave you two versions of The Flying Sequence! When the WotW complete score has just the dialogue-including version (or if it's in the main program and not on the bonus section) I'm gonna... well what am I gonna do? Nevermind, this would be bullshit. 3 minutes ago, Richard said: Sally, why are sittin' around moping, sittin' around hoping? Just listen to me... At least this is sung. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Brundlefly said: When the WotW complete score has just the dialogue-including version (or if it's in the main program and not on the bonus section) I'm gonna... well what am I gonna do? Nevermind, this would be bullshit. That'll happen. Trust me. They never let an opportunity like that go to waste, as I've noted regarding TWOK and TZ:TM. There's some weird ideology that's festered in the industry over the years that dialogue on soundtracks is "essential" for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 I'm not sure if you could call that "singing", but it's a cute tune. I wouldn't mind hearing A MOST REMARKABLE MAN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,373 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 7 minutes ago, Sally Spectra said: Rhino did it first. And as far as I recall, the FSM doesn't even offer the full eight minute track on the dialogue version. You recall incorrectly. The exact album version is disc 8, track 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, Jay said: You recall incorrectly. The exact album version is disc 8, track 2. I was thinking of the 2:51 minute version for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 I disagree with almost everyone about almost everything in this thread, but we DO agree on one thing -- I, too, severely dislike dialogue on soundtrack albums. Pieter Boelen and A. A. Ron 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,385 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 3 hours ago, Sally Spectra said: That'll happen. Trust me. They never let an opportunity like that go to waste, as I've noted regarding TWOK and TZ:TM. There's some weird ideology that's festered in the industry over the years that dialogue on soundtracks is "essential" for whatever reason. We must MV make consious of the fact that we don't want any dialogue on any future release. Maybe as a bonus track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,897 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 5 hours ago, Sally Spectra said: If you hoped Spock's narration in the finale to TWOK would vanish in an expansion, think again. If you thought Scatman Crothers' song from Twilight Zone: The Movie would finally be gone from expansion, you were mistaken. Spock's narration was absent in the 50th Anniversary collection. It even says "sans narration" in the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 2 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said: Spock's narration was absent in the 50th Anniversary collection. It even says "sans narration" in the title. Yes I know, but you still need a separate release from the FSM or OST to actually hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 The Spock narration is essential. Horner scored it to the narration and it works beautifully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Brundlefly 2,385 Posted August 8, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 8, 2017 5 hours ago, Evil-Lyn said: The Spock narration is essential. Horner scored it to the narration and it works beautifully. Every cue is written with the film's dialogue in mind. Shouldn't they always include any dialogue and sound effects? crumbs, Bilbo and artguy360 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 That's different! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. A. Ron 1,742 Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 On 8/7/2017 at 3:39 PM, Brundlefly said: We must MV make consious of the fact that we don't want any dialogue on any future release. Maybe as a bonus track. Forget MV, it's Mike Matessino who needs to agree with us. On 8/7/2017 at 5:38 PM, Manakin Skywalker said: Spock's narration was absent in the 50th Anniversary collection. It even says "sans narration" in the title. I think the "sans narration" version is essential! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Richard Penna 3,694 Posted August 10, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted August 10, 2017 On 8/5/2017 at 4:36 AM, Sally Spectra said: False equivalence. It's also like a filmmaker shooting a bunch of material for a film, and just releasing all that raw footage for all to see, without editing it all down to create a story with pacing and sensibility. A composer may want to do the same with their music, but does it make any musical sense on their part? An album is an opportunity to present it how they feel is proper and tells a story. This comparison of a complete score release being like releasing all of the film's dailies doesn't make sense. The complete score is a finished product from the perspective of the film. The bits they don't include on album are still as valid to be heard. To answer the original question, The Terminal has annoyed me the most over the years. Repeated music, bizarre sequencing that doesn't even take you properly through Viktor's story, and the omission of a dramatically crucial cue. RotS is also a worthy mention, if only due to the absolutely baffling omission of the funeral and transformation into Vader. What part of the listening experience and storytelling leaves that galaxy-changing part out? Manakin Skywalker, crumbs and Holko 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 9 minutes ago, Richard Penna said: This comparison of a complete score release being like releasing all of the film's dailies doesn't make sense. The complete score is a finished product from the perspective of the film. But it's not a finished product from the perspective of the album. Two different media. Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 But the changes required to make an album are unique for every film. There's no 'one' finished product. Hence you can't turn your nose at every release longer than 50 minutes and complain that it's not properly presented. How does anyone define that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 13 hours ago, Richard Penna said: But the changes required to make an album are unique for every film. There's no 'one' finished product. Hence you can't turn your nose at every release longer than 50 minutes and complain that it's not properly presented. How does anyone define that? Length (or quantity of music) is really irrelevant to me, although I'd argue that very few musical works/albums hold up to 70 minutes and beyond. That would be Wagner and stuff like that. What matters is getting the artist him- or herself to make the presentation with listening experience in mind; or if he/she's not available, an experienced album producer who values listening experience over archeological importance. We've been very fortunate that Williams has been in a position to produce most of his OSTs himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Simply out of interest, Thor...why are you not a fan of expanded/complete releases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 38 minutes ago, Richard said: Simply out of interest, Thor...why are you not a fan of expanded/complete releases? Don't go there Richard! Just don't! Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Just asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 He'll pitch his tent and climb on that soap box of his faster than you can say "fizzy drinks cause hissy fits". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Ha, ha...indeed. Due to popular demand, I should probably refrain from elaborating further. But for fun and giggles, here's one of the first BIG attacks I had on expanded releases, way back on August 11, 2000 (exactly 17 years ago today!): http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=1121&forumID=1&archive=0 (don't hold the whimsical prose against me; I was in my early 20s at the time). Unlucky Bastard and Naïve Old Fart 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 I wasn't even born, then. mstrox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 I vos neevah dat yung Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt S. 493 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 I really have no qualms with Williams OSTs (though I do agree that the Jurassic Park OST is a bit odd, with so much repeated material), but the only really baffling decision to me is the inclusion of the Throne Room music in the middle of the Episode III end credits. It makes no sense musically; it is so out-of-place and awkwardly shoehorned in that to me, it very nearly ruins the entire album. I've always enjoyed the Star Wars albums in large part because of the end credit suites; they are (almost) always perfect summations of the scores, and bring the album to a perfect close. That Episode III suite, though, ugh. It makes me cringe. It's so unnecessary; the film version of the credits is perfect; the usual Luke's Theme/Rebel Fanfare opening segues to Leia's theme (with a nice new transition to the concert version), then to Battle of the Heroes, then back to the Luke's Theme. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,318 Posted August 11, 2017 Author Share Posted August 11, 2017 I think it was meant to be Williams' farewell to the series, basically bringing the whole musical tapestry full circle. Clearly in hindsight, he shouldn't have bothered. Kasey Kockroach 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 10 hours ago, Thor said: Length (or quantity of music) is really irrelevant to me A few months ago, in response to me saying 'It's about length': On 11/2/2016 at 10:56 PM, Thor said: Absolutely, yes! Make up your flipping mind. Your arguments simply don't make coherent sense from one week to the next. I can see exactly where you're coming from - you want to listen to the music with no ties to the visuals, meaning that edits/missing music are irrelevant. Unfortunately, there's a magic formula somewhere in your head for making Thor's perfect album, and no one knows what it is. Yet when a composer misses that formula, you're amazed. Can't help noticing this in your FSM post: Quote In fact, the ONLY JUSTIFICATION in my book for expanded releases is if there is IMPORTANT MUSIC left off of the original release. I thought you didn't care about what music had been left off, as long as your listening experience works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 Yes, my view has changed a bit in the last 17 years. Back then, I was open to more music (at least important music) being included on a release, but now I don't really care about "missing" stuff, regardless of quality. All that matters is how the album holds up for what it is. Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 Such a narrow, limited view! Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 13 minutes ago, Stefancos said: Such a narrow, limited view! It's called a preference. And I'd call it a wider and more dynamic one than those who MUST have all of the music, exactly as it is in the movie. Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Thor said: All that matters is how the album holds up for what it is. Yet if the album spills onto more than one CD (or violates an arbitrary limit that even you're not sure of), then your implication is that no thought whatsoever has gone into the album experience. That's what I call a narrow view. Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 8 minutes ago, Richard Penna said: Yet if the album spills onto more than one CD (or violates an arbitrary limit that even you're not sure of), then your implication is that no thought whatsoever has gone into the album experience. That's what I call a narrow view. In a strawman mood today, are we? As I already said, quantity of music is really irrelevant. But I also think few musical works in general hold up to, say, 70 minutes and beyond. These are not mutually exclusive thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 Thor, you have a point. If we equate this conversation with other music (say, rock music), I'd rather have a 40-minute CD of "all killer, no filler", than 75 minutes of stuff, just because the group recorded 75 minutes of stuff. However...a complete OST recording is not a rock album. It's meant to add depth, and texture to what's already there, and the chances are that we've heard the extra music, already, as part of the film. We are not approaching the music blind. I do have two questions for you, though, to wit; 1/ do you own any complete/expanded scores? 2/ if you do, do you listen to the whole score, or just the OST presentations/tracks? At the end of the day, anyone can listen to whatever they want, in whatever form they wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Richard said: 1/ do you own any complete/expanded scores? Yes. Some I've sold or given away, some I've kept. 1 minute ago, Richard said: 2/ if you do, do you listen to the whole score, or just the OST presentations/tracks? Just the OST, if there is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 Hmm. Thanks for that. Although I would never denigrate your decision to listen to OSTs exclusively, I will suggest that you perhaps miss the point of complete scores. They are not wasteful. Far from it. The OST is meant not only to represent the music heard in the film, it, somehow, encapsulates the mood - the intent - of the film. The complete score, on the other hand, is so that fans can understand what the composer is trying to say, and to understand it with greater clarity. Several scores that I own, have been enhanced by my buying compete scores, which give me richer insight into the composer's compositional process, and allow me to listen to the musical story - the journey, if you will - as it was meant to be heard. For me, that's a rare privilege. crumbs and DarthDementous 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 Basically, Thor doesn't care about the film, or the score's relationship to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 If that's true, then that is a pity, because Thor must know that they are inseparable. They were not meant to be experienced alone. What say you, Thor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, Richard said: If that's true, then that is a pity, because Thor must know that they are inseparable. They were not meant to be experienced alone. What say you, Thor? Richard Penna is right. In terms of soundtrack listening, the film has no relevance to me. I approach soundtracks as concept albums. But I'm obviously very interested in film music as part of my film interest (heck, I wrote my master thesis on it). To me, these are two completely different interests and activities. Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 Two completely different interests... which both concern the same music. Right. Bilbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,552 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 One can study soccer as both a game of skill, and a business. It's "nothing simpler than perception". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, Richard Penna said: Two completely different interests... which both concern the same music. Right. Well, they are. One is part of my film interest, the other is part of my music interest. Why do you feel this urge to somehow prove my preference is incorrect? What does it matter to you anyway? Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 Not really an urge, I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint. Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,519 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 17 minutes ago, Richard Penna said: Not really an urge, I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint. Then why is your rhetoric confrontational? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 24 minutes ago, Thor said: Well, they are. One is part of my film interest, the other is part of my music interest. Why do you feel this urge to somehow prove my preference is incorrect? What does it matter to you anyway? He's afraid the film score labels will start listening to you and in the future will only release CDs with about 40 minutes of music instead of 110. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,318 Posted August 12, 2017 Author Share Posted August 12, 2017 So many Williams OSTs are poor representations of the complete score, omitting crucial cues (for thematic development reasons or otherwise) or unnecessary repetition of concert suites already presented earlier on the OST. Jurassic Park, The Terminal, Amistad and Prisoner of Azkaban are noteworthy offenders here. I can't for the life of me understand why Williams favours including note-for-note repetition of music already presented earlier on an OST (or even a previous OST, in the case of sequel scores) rather than including variations on primary themes. One need only look at his treatment of existing themes in Star Wars OSTs to notice this. DarthDementous 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 I apologise for the overly confrontational tone so far - I got a bit carried away. But I think you are too quick to criticize album producers for thinking they don't have your approach in mind. Just because a release is long, doesn't mean it hasn't been selected with quality in mind - it's surely related to how much music there was to begin with. The upcoming Walking Dead release for example, I hope will be 2 CDs. Not because I want to wade through 2 hours of music, but because with 7 years of the show, McCreary has a lot of story and musical ground to cover. I calculated in another thread how much music he's written for the show (~50 hours). To ask him to present just 2% of his work purely for length, feels unreasonable. 4 minutes ago, crumbs said: I can't for the life of me understand why Williams favours including note-for-note repetition of music already presented earlier on an OST (or even a previous OST, in the case of sequel scores) rather than including variations on primary themes. One need only look at his treatment of existing themes in Star Wars OSTs to notice this. I see why he does it - he imagines listeners sitting down with the CD and going through a musical journey, and a thematic repeat is a way to end that. But the preservationist, or someone wanting to hear the music from the film, sees it as a wasted opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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