Star Wars Disenchantment

[JTN 2,046]

If so, then why does he keep asking people what it’s about? If an ordinary person can understand it, why is he playing to be some sort of “Star Wars professor” who knows so much more about it than others? Why would anyone with a sane mind think that Star Wars is anything more than a fun fantasy space opera? Why does everything have to be more than what it is? 

[greenturnedblue 372]

9 hours ago, Mattris said:

"Under the direction of the Lucasfilm Story Group, all elements of Star Wars canon now operate in a unified and collaborative storytelling setting."

 

That has thoroughly been debunked:

Quote

Well if that's your point then you're just flat out wrong that Star Wars has always had haphazard continuity. From the release of Heir to the Empire to The Clone Wars movie the continuity within the expanded universe was a huge consideration and meticulously handled. Any contradictions that arose would actually be addressed and 90% of the time resolved in future media or from members of the Lucasfilm Story Group themselves who took great time and care to respond to fan concerns. The amount of interconnectivity was also insane, you'd be reading a comic set in the Clone Wars and it would be simultaneously referencing events from the Knights of the Old Republic comics, as well as setting up elements for the Thrawn Trilogy which doesn't occur until post-ROTJ

Now, when I say 'to The Clone Wars movie' I don't mean that they just stopped giving a shit about continuity after it came out, but rather the Lucasfilm Story Group faced some extreme continuity challenges. Your favorite person Chen, George Lucas, had allowed people to flesh out the area between the Prequel movies quite significantly on the stipulation that he wasn't going to touch it. However, in the mid 2000s he changed his mind and put together The Clone Wars which completely bull-dozed through the existing expanded universe to the point the story group had to come up with a band-aid fix known as 'T canon' which elevated TCW above all the rest of the expanded universe. Unfortunately, while this means that TCW could continue unfettered by any restraints to what was previously established in the era, other EU stories had to bend over backwards to blend the old stories with Lucas' and it became pretty messy. The interconnectivity remained however, and some of the best expanded universe works came out post-2007 so it wasn't a complete write-off

Come post the 2013 Disney buy-out and everything is erased except TCW. Theoretically, with this clean slate, continuity should be easier than ever to maintain but the values of the Lucasfilm Story Group shifted significantly and no longer was there the same attention to detail in the pre-Disney expanded universe. However, a bizarre paradox arose where they had the ambition to have everything that was created, be it video game or novel, from now on to be on the same level of canon as the movies. This ultimately proved to be an utter disaster and fell into the MCU trap of alienating the general audience by having events in movies heavily rely on expanded material to understand

So, from my point of view when I look at the absolute disastrous state of Star Wars these days I can't help but partly attribute it to de-prioritization of continuity. I also can't help but notice how unbelievably solid it was pre-Disney when that was a greater concern, and how it lead to richer stories and a far more cohesive-feeling universe that also managed to not feel homogenous

That is why I do not tolerate the idea that Star Wars should just continue on the death-march it's currently on because 'that's what it did in the past', because not only is that not entirely correct but it's the kind of attitude that breeds stagnation

 

 

[Mattris 416]

Not only does that post from DarthDementous not 'thoroughly debunk' Lucasfilm's stated intent, it contains at least one false statement: "they had the ambition to have everything that was created, be it video game or novel, from now on to be on the same level of canon as the movies."

 

Should any inconsistencies or direct contradictions be found in the various canon media, the Saga movies always take president.

[greenturnedblue 372]

I suppose you are forgetting that just a few hours ago, you were saying "all elements of Star Wars canon now operate in a unified and collaborative storytelling setting".

 

And now you admit there could be "inconsistencies or direct contractions" in the canon?

 

It seems you cannot even get your own theory straight.

[Mattris 416]

It seems you haven't read the information from the links I provided. Here they are again:

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Canon

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Canon_policy

[Bellosh 3,419]

i love this thread

 

[Tallguy 3,401]

Nope. We got that. The announcement was

 

Quote

the term "canon" come to be reserved exclusively for George Lucas' canon - the six movies and the seasons of Star Wars: The Clone Wars he developed and producered - and the movies, television series, novels, comics, toys and video games created by Lucasfilm after the acquisition.

 

And we all said "Wait! If something shows up in the comics or a video game and it goes against whatever J.J. Abrams (or whover) then they have to STICK TO THAT? And Disney rather ridiculously said "You betcha!"

 

It turned out to not be true.

 

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, greenturnedblue said:

I suppose you are forgetting that just a few hours ago, you were saying "all elements of Star Wars canon now operate in a unified and collaborative storytelling setting".

 

And now you admit there could be "inconsistencies or direct contractions" in the canon?

 

It seems you cannot even get your own theory straight.

 

Do you not understand why there may be inconsistencies or contradictions in the Star Wars canon?

 

Reacting 'sleepily' only indicates that you are lazy and/or don't want to admit that your perceived issues have been addressed by high-ups at Lucasfilm.

 

40 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Nope. We got that.

 

And we all said "Wait! If something shows up in the comics or a video game and it goes against whatever J.J. Abrams (or whover) then they have to STICK TO THAT? And Disney rather ridiculously said "You betcha!"

 

It turned out to not be true.

 

What in the comics or video games has 'gone against' whatever J.J. Abrams or others have produced?

 

Pablo Hidalgo has said on multiple occasions that Star Wars is a story being told. Each volume/episode of this story is told from a certain point of view, not objective fact or as if it were reality. The audience is not a fly on the wall. (The unreliable narrator comes to mind.)

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

I don’t know which one of you first started saying “contractions” instead of “contradictions,” but you’re all the worst!

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

43 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Reacting 'sleepily' only indicates that you are lazy and/or don't want to admit that your perceived issues have been addressed by high-ups at Lucasfilm.

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

42 minutes ago, Mattris said:

addressed by high-ups at Lucasfilm.

 

You know they're just making things up on the go, right?

[Mattris 416]

46 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

You know they're just making things up on the go, right?

 

Obviously, I've concluded differently... especially as it pertains to the main story, themes, lore, and character archetypes... elements that have remained consistent from the very beginning (1976).

 

Just because because you - and many others - have concluded something to be (obviously!) true doesn't mean that it is so. The fact that 'your side' continually fails to produce facts or substantive evidence to support your assumptions means that you are almost certainly wrong.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

53 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

You know they're just making things up on the go, right?

He refuses to know that.

[Demodex 557]

.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

I'm not on any side. I don't care. 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

13 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Just because because you - and many others - have concluded something to be (obviously!) true doesn't mean that it is so. The fact that 'your side' continually fails to produce facts or substantive evidence to support your assumptions means that you are almost certainly wrong.

You fail that same standard all the time Mattris. You claim to have more evidence and logic, but simply claiming it doesn’t make it so.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

14 minutes ago, Mattris said:

The fact that 'your side' continually fails to produce facts

 

What facts have you produced, if I may ask?

[Demodex 557]

8 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

He refuses to know that.

 

He ignores that everyone including Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver both said that the story changed.  Abrams even said Kylo was not originally going to be redeemed.

 

 

6 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

You fail that same standard all the time Mattris. You claim to have more evidence and logic, but simply claiming it doesn’t make it so.

 

EXACTLY.  

He's just a lonely troll.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

What facts have you produced, if I may ask?

 

He hasn't any except that Rey's theme has a few notes in common with Papatine's.

[greenturnedblue 372]

16 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

You fail that same standard all the time Mattris. You claim to have more evidence and logic, but simply claiming it doesn’t make it so.

 

Mattris provides evidence all the time. But only that it is "implied through storytelling"

[Mattris 416]

  

6 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

He refuses to know that.

 

Based on the evidence I've seen - primarily, the literal words of the Star Wars canon - I've concluded that Lucasfilm is not making up the narrative, themes, lore, and character archetypes... you know, those little things that comprise a story.

 

6 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I'm not on any side. I don't care. 

 

You took the position that "they're just making things up on the go". If you don't care, then why are you here?

 

6 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

You fail that same standard all the time Mattris. You claim to have more evidence and logic, but simply claiming it doesn’t make it so.

 

I spent hundreds of post years ago presenting evidence and logic in this very topic. There's no need to get into it again, though I will have more to say about it.

 

6 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

What facts have you produced, if I may ask?

 

For starters, Episode VII marked the continuation of the the Saga. (It was not a lazy re-boot of the story, as so many have concluded.) The logical conclusions extrapolated from this fact are wide-reaching.

 

5 hours ago, Demodex said:

He ignores that everyone including Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver both said that the story changed.  Abrams even said Kylo was not originally going to be redeemed.

 

Years on from these experiences - the jobs of which they were hired - what do these Lucasfilm contractors/employees stand to gain by saying these kinds of things, whether they're true or not. Why would they keep bring up such self-incrimination?

 

5 hours ago, Demodex said:

He's just a lonely troll.

 

Nah, just enjoying showing so many people that they really have no clue what they're talking about.

 

5 hours ago, Demodex said:

He hasn't any except that Rey's theme has a few notes in common with Papatine's.

 

Hasn't any? Give me a break, @Demodex. I brought up the fact that the first five notes of Kylo's Theme are five notes in a row  from The Emperor's Theme. That's in addition to the stuff in Rey Theme, including this one that I don't think I've mentioned before:

 

Notes 10-12 of The Force Theme are the first three notes of Rey's Theme

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

You took the position that "they're just making things up on the go". If you don't care, then why are you here?

 

It's an entertaining thread.

 

[Mattris 416]

And you want me to concede "they're just making things up on the go" but have no factual/substantive evidence to support that conclusion.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

3 minutes ago, Mattris said:

For starters Episode VII marked the continuation of the the Saga. (It was not a lazy re-boot of the story, as so many have concluded.) The logical conclusions extrapolated from this fact are wide reaching.

 

One fact? That's it? That Episode VII marked the continuation of the saga? Isn't that obvious?

 

I expected something more like a paper with proper references, @Chen G. style.

[Mattris 416]

It is obvious. Shame so many people assumed that Episode VII was just a lazy remake of the original film when it was factually the continuation of the same story, just as the prequels showed what happened previously in the same story.

 

I said, "For starters".  In this thread, I estimate I've made more factual statements and presented more factual observations than everyone else here combined.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

Why don't you sum them up concisely? You'd get more respect then.

[greenturnedblue 372]

13 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Notes 10-12 of The Force Theme are the first three notes of Rey's Theme

OK, and? So what

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

I was not going to reveal this now, but what the heck: I've discovered that John Williams re-uses notes from both his own and other composers' compositions all the time.

[Demodex 557]

31 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Nah, just enjoying showing so many people that they really have no clue what they're talking about.

 

TROLLING.  Because you only have your opinion, not facts.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Mattris said:

It is obvious. Shame so many people assumed that Episode VII was just a lazy remake of the original film when it was factually the continuation of the same story, just as the prequels showed what happened previously in the same story.

 

 

That's your interpretation.   The fact that the plots are pretty much the same, I would say it was a lazy remake.

I liked it for the most part, but it was ANH v2.0

 

Ok.  No more feeding the troll.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

So he's got no evidence then. Case closed.

 

[Mattris 416]

  

24 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Why don't you sum them up concisely? You'd get more respect then.

 

I'm not looking for respect. I'm showing that all here are clueless and state assumptions as fact.

 

22 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

OK, and? So what

 

I was asked for facts. That's one more.

 

20 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I was not going to reveal this now, but what the heck: I've discovered that John Williams re-uses notes from both his own and other composers' compositions all the time.

 

And for what purpose do you think John Williams does this? Do you think he had a reason to pull multiple notes in a row from previous Star Wars themes to compose the themes for Rey and Kylo Ren? Could it be because John Williams was told something about the plan for those characters?

 

10 minutes ago, Demodex said:

TROLLING.  Because you only have your opinion, not facts.

 

My assessments have nothing to do with my opinions. (It's the other way around.)

 

I base my assessment of Star Wars beyond a surface level interpretation of the story... how George Lucas has advised repeatedly. How about you, @Demodex?

 

2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

So he's got no evidence then. Case closed.

 

"If only saying it would make it so."   - Grand Moff Tarkin

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

1 minute ago, Mattris said:

I'm not looking for respect. I'm showing that all here are clueless and state assumptions as fact.

 

If you're not showing your so-called facts, you're in the same boat.

 

1 minute ago, Mattris said:

And for what purpose do you think John Williams does this? Do you think he had a reason to pull multiple notes in a row from previous Star Wars themes to compose the themes for Rey and Kylo Ren? Could it be because John Williams was told something about the plan for those characters?

 

I was making a joke. There's only 12 tones in a chromatic scale.

[Tallguy 3,401]

Good grief. I came back to my computer and it said "20 new messages". No! Really? (Looks.) It's TRUE!

[greenturnedblue 372]

17 minutes ago, Mattris said:

That's one more

One more what, exactly? Was there any doubt as to Rey's ability with the force?

[Demodex 557]

28 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I was asked for facts. That's one more.

 

Your fact is as relevant as the fact that the sky is blue.

[Bellosh 3,419]

 

[Mattris 416]

47 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

If you're not showing your so-called facts, you're in the same boat.

 

First and foremost, Star Wars is a story to be interpreted. Doing so based in 'facts' alone is impossible. But it is a fact that George Lucas described his work - and its intent - in such a way that many of the Star Wars audience have disregarded. He said Star Wars is a "modern fairytale" with foundations in mythology, a story intended to convey universal truths and valuable life lessons... while most people view Star Wars as escapism, a fun/lame spectacle featuring action/adventure elements wherein family and friends eventually beat the bad guys. What a massive difference in these two approaches.

 

Unlike you, I've already presented facts and relevant literal canon excerpts that demonstrate my credibility. Saying we're "in the same boat" is very disingenuous of you.

 

31 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

One more what, exactly? Was there any doubt as to Rey's ability with the force?

 

One more fact.

 

Many had doubts as to Rey's affinity to use the Force so well and so easily. The fact is, her musical theme was derived from the Force Theme. What that means, if anything, is up to the audience.

 

19 minutes ago, Demodex said:

Your fact is as relevant as the fact that the sky is blue.

 

Nope. Like many of my contributions here, this single fact was unknown to all here until I posted it.

 

Star Wars fans are ignorant of so much, yet think they are justified to complain and make grandiose claims and massive assumptions. Mark my words, they will soon be hit with a harsh reality.

[Demodex 557]

3 minutes ago, Mattris said:

The fact is, her musical theme was derived from the Force Theme. What that means, if anything, is up to the audience

 

My Interpretation is that 3 notes in common means nothing.  Lots of music have 3 notes in common.  Just coincidence. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

8 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Unlike you, I've already presented facts and relevant literal canon excerpts that demonstrate my credibility. Saying we're "in the same boat" is very disingenuous of you.

 

I'm not reading through the entire thread, but what I've seen from you are mostly subjective opinions or unfounded claims. I you want to be taken seriously, you need to provide references.

[greenturnedblue 372]

2 minutes ago, Demodex said:

3 notes in common means nothing

Knowing the genius JW is, I suspect he deliberately integrated a fraction of the force theme into Rey's theme. Just listen to the very end of the TFA end credits. 

 

However, im not sure what the relevance of this is to Mattris' argument.

 

9 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Many had doubts as to Rey's affinity to use the Force so well and so easily

Yes, it is quite clear in the film that Rey has a natural command of the Force. Yes, this is reflected in the film's soundtrack. I'm not sure what the big revelatory secret is, or what this is "proof" of?

[JTN 2,046]

Literally you can explain anything into anything. People look up at the sky and they see clouds in all kinds of shape. But only they see it, and only because the brain searches for shapes it recognizes.

Some see the face of Jesus on a burnt toast and think it's a sign from God. 

 

Or to quote Lex Luthor:

“Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.”

 

The crazier one gets, Star Wars will have all the more "secret meaning". 

Our boy Matt is reading a chewing gum wrapper and thinks he has unlocked the secrets of the universe. But that "universe" has been changed so many times by so many people that even they don't know what they're doing anymore. 

 

And thinking that it has a special, secret meaning yet to be revealed, is just stupid. Mainly because it's just a film, and because the original creator has sold the rights to his story, and has nothing to do with it anymore, and the people who are now in control, have no idea what they are doing. Otherwise the tv shows would be very successful and most of the fans wouldn't have left.

 

The sequel trilogy was simply a repetition of the OT for a new generation. It had a female lead, because feminism in Hollywood demanded it, not because the story wanted it. Everything changed as they went on, because that's how decisions are made. 

 

The story, characters and dialogue of the original trilogy went through numerous changes and rewrites by Lucas and other writers, even while  shooting the films. 

Prophecies, hidden meanings my ass! The ewoks came to be because Lucas wanted to sell toys, so he cut the wookies in half, and voilá, ewoks! 

Even Matt can't be so childishly naiive to believe that Star Wars was created by "God" or whatever. Lucas created it and kept changing everything minute by minute, as he went along, and even decades later. This is an artifical mythology, and only a fanatic dummy thinks that "all this means something!". Why should it? It's been entertaining people for decades, it's more than enough. 

[greenturnedblue 372]

16 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Star Wars is a story to be interpreted. Doing so based in 'facts' alone is impossible. But it is a fact that George Lucas described his work

 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that you're trying to be funny by saying Star Wars should not be interpreted based on facts alone, and then immediately doing so yourself

[Mattris 416]

  

35 minutes ago, Demodex said:

My Interpretation is that 3 notes in common means nothing.  Lots of music have 3 notes in common.  Just coincidence. 

 

You're free to think that. But even in isolation, coincidence is not the name of John Williams game. The fact is, my factual observations are pilling up as they relate to the Star Wars story and its musical score. Assumption that so many intriguing, eyebrow-raising things are not by design  is simply illogical.

 

29 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I'm not reading through the entire thread, but what I've seen from you are mostly subjective opinions or unfounded claims. I you want to be taken seriously, you need to provide references.

 

I already have provided references. I'm not going though all that again, if only for time.

 

What subjective opinions or unfounded claims?

 

26 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

Knowing the genius JW is, I suspect he deliberately integrated a fraction of the force theme into Rey's theme. Just listen to the very end of the TFA end credits. 

 

However, im not sure what the relevance of this is to Mattris' argument.

 

Rey's Theme starts with three notes in a row from The Force Theme, is based in its same chordal structure, contains rising/falling minor thirds like The Emperor's Theme, and concludes with similar note intervals to Darth Vader's Theme.  The relevance to my argument is that this is indication of a plan for the character, of which John Williams was told before he composed Rey's Theme as well as others throughout the Saga.

 

26 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

Yes, it is quite clear in the film that Rey has a natural command of the Force. Yes, this is reflected in the film's soundtrack. I'm not sure what the big revelatory secret is, or what this is "proof" of?

 

You'll find out. I could say more, but I don't want to ruin the surprise.

 

25 minutes ago, JTW said:

Or to quote Lex Luthor:

“Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe.”

 

The crazier one gets, Star Wars will have all the more "secret meaning". 

Our boy Matt is reading a chewing gum wrapper and thinks he has unlocked the secrets of the universe.

 

And Star Wars is "a simple adventure story", right? Keep thinking like that, and see where it leads you.

 

25 minutes ago, JTW said:

But that "universe" has been changed so many times by so many people that even they don't know what they're doing anymore...

 

That's an assumption. What evidence do you have?

 

25 minutes ago, JTW said:

This is an artifical mythology, and only a fanatic dummy thinks that "all this means something!". Why should it? It's been entertaining people for decades, it's more than enough. 

 

Entertainment is frivolous. Star Wars should mean something, or we're wasting our time. (But just to reiterate, I'm not waiting for anything or anyone to make it meaningful to me.)

 

21 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that you're trying to be funny by saying Star Wars should not be interpreted based on facts alone, and then immediately doing so yourself

 

I'm saying the story should be interpreted based on its literal content, assessed in totality... not film-to-film, assuming that you always understood it properly. (Such would be the approach of a stubborn child.)

[Datameister 2,044]

This thread just makes me so happy. 🤣

 

Partial list of Star Wars themes containing rising/falling minor thirds:

 

• Imperial motif
• Jawa theme
• Rebel fanfare
• Han and Leia's theme
• Imperial March
• Yoda's theme
• Jabba's theme
• Ewok theme
• Qui-Gon's theme
• Across the Stars
• Separatists' theme
• Poe's theme

Maybe, if we're truly lucky, Mattris will someday reveal to us how Darth Sidious created Yoda, Qui-Gon Jinn, and Poe Dameron. After all, it's right there in their themes. YOU'D HAVE TO BE AN IDIOT TO MISS IT.

[enderdrag64 624]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Based on the evidence I've seen - primarily, the literal words of the Star Wars canon - I've concluded that Lucasfilm is not making up the narrative, themes, lore, and character archetypes... you know, those little things that comprise a story.

So it's based on a true story then?

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

  Based on the evidence I've seen - primarily, the literal words of the Star Wars canon - I've concluded that Lucasfilm is not making up the narrative, themes, lore, and character archetypes... you know, those little things that comprise a story.

 

If I ever end up writing a book series or a TV show or any kind of long-term creative project, I hope I end up with an audience full of people just like you. I'll never be able to do anything wrong!

 

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

  You took the position that "they're just making things up on the go". If you don't care, then why are you here?

 

5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

It's an entertaining thread.

 

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

And you want me to concede "they're just making things up on the go" but have no factual/substantive evidence to support that conclusion.

 

Mattris, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that most of the posters in this thread don't actually want you to concede/eventually see the light/whatever. People are just egging you on because they find your endless stream of insane theories hilarious. But don't take my word for it. Use your expert deducting skills on the evidence available to you, primarily, the literal words of the Disenchantment thread canon. And if that's not enough search your feelings. You know it to be true.

[Holko 9,531]

26 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

People are just egging you on because they find your endless stream of insane theories hilarious.

We're hoping for more unhinged shit like that anagram thing one time, that was great!

[Brando 1,864]

I remembered why I unfollowed this thread 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

I just read the first page of the thread again and I completely forgot that it emerged out of a Solo thread and that several of the thread's top posters were here from the beginning (I've really been coming in here for almost SIX YEARS??). The best part though is seeing Mattris talk about how much he hated TLJ and expressing doubt that Lucasfilm could salvage the sequel trilogy with Episode IX.

[greenturnedblue 372]

IMO the entire "gay" incident was highly entertaining simply because of the absurdity of it all

[Mattris 416]

3 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

So it's based on a true story then?

 

In 1999, George Lucas said that Star Wars is "an old story told in a new way."