Star Wars Disenchantment

[JTN 2,046]

There you go, @enderdrag64. Star Wars is based on a true story.  

 

Matty asks what evidence do I have that Star Wars is run by incompetent people who have no idea what they’re doing. Seriously?
Has he even seen the sequel trilogy? 

He says, and I quote: “Star Wars should mean something, or we’re wasting our time.”

Finally, Jr. has found illumination! It doesn’t mean anything, it shouldn’t mean anything. It’s supposed to entertain, that’s all. 
 

Matty is the perfect example of a true fanatic whose faith is indestructible. The perfect delusion. With so much blind faith he should be a priest. Maybe he is.
 

 

 

 

 

[Mattris 416]

9 hours ago, Datameister said:

Partial list of Star Wars themes containing rising/falling minor thirds...

 

No other Star Wars theme features rising/falling minor thirds as much as Rey's Theme. (It's the backbone of the theme.) When the other musical references are taken into account - namely that Kylo's Theme was lifted from multiple notes in a row from The Emperor's Theme - the intended connection should  be obvious to anyone with musical inclination.

 

Dies Irae can be found in the harmony of the B-section... and multiple other themes and cues throughout the Saga.

 

Then of course there's the literal canon connections/clues, of which there are almost too many to count. (In this thread, I posted a few dozen, or so.)

 

But it's all mere coincidence, right?

 

6 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Mattris, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that most of the posters in this thread don't actually want you to concede/eventually see the light/whatever. People are just egging you on because they find your endless stream of insane theories hilarious. But don't take my word for it. Use your expert deducting skills on the evidence available to you, primarily, the literal words of the Disenchantment thread canon. And if that's not enough search your feelings. You know it to be true.

 

What's true? On what evidence are you basing your conclusions?

 

Laughing and contradiction is a pathetic response to the substance and intrigue I've presented. The hive mind of ignorance here is truly astounding... in a sad way.

 

Your conclusions are based on assumptions and a surface-level assessment of a mythological fairytale parable. And you think you're right about the story... that you're showing your boy Mattris the error of his ways? Ya gonna show Lucasfilm, too? Better keep at it, then!

 

6 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

I just read the first page of the thread again and I completely forgot that it emerged out of a Solo thread and that several of the thread's top posters were here from the beginning (I've really been coming in here for almost SIX YEARS??). The best part though is seeing Mattris talk about how much he hated TLJ and expressing doubt that Lucasfilm could salvage the sequel trilogy with Episode IX.

 

Some people learn and grow. Others, not so much.

 

The story never needed salvaging.

 

19 hours ago, JTW said:

If so, then why does he keep asking people what it’s about? If an ordinary person can understand it, why is he playing to be some sort of “Star Wars professor” who knows so much more about it than others? Why would anyone with a sane mind think that Star Wars is anything more than a fun fantasy space opera? Why does everything have to be more than what it is? 

 

That's just it:  I do 'know so much more about Star Wars than others', as I'm continually proving.

 

I keep asking people what Star Wars is about to show how the popular assessment doesn't make sense. But no one has the guts to type it out. Is it because you think it's overly simple and lame? If so, then why do you care to argue with someone about a silly kid's movie series?

 

Why do you think George Lucas wrote the story with the Jedi and Republic having failed (revealed at the beginning of the OT, shown in the PT)... then in the next generation (the end of the OT), it's implied that the Jedi and Republic will return... Happily Ever After?  During their adventures, the featured 'goodies' didn't learn any significant or do anything different. (Luke was taught by failures.) So why would the same institutions yield different results?

 

George Lucas played his audience for fools, confirmed when Lucasfilm showed the audience what they should have expected: The (rebuilt) Jedi and Republic fell once again, with the surviving Jedi (Luke) and Republic leader (Leia) having been outcast/secluded, not unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi from the previous generation. Turns out, the well-intentioned characters were as naive as the Star Wars audience and they paid for it.

 

1 hour ago, JTW said:

There you go, @enderdrag64. Star Wars is based on a true story.  
 

Matty asks what evidence do I have that Star Wars is run by incompetent people who have no idea what they’re doing. Seriously?
Has he even seen the sequel trilogy? 

He says, and I quote: “Star Wars should mean something, or we’re wasting our time.”

Finally, Jr. has found illumination! It doesn’t mean anything, it shouldn’t mean anything. It’s supposed to entertain, that’s all. 
 

Matty is the perfect example of a true fanatic whose faith is indestructible. The perfect delusion. With so much blind faith he should be a priest. Maybe he is.

 

Lucas didn't say 'true'. He said it's "an old story told in a new way".

 

Seriously, I'm still  asking you for evidence. And you still  haven't submitted anything. Be specific about the issues you have with the sequel trilogy. Your continual avoidance to name anything is not a good look. 

 

Your assumption  that "It doesn’t mean anything, it shouldn’t mean anything. It’s supposed to entertain, that’s all." runs contrary to what George Lucas said about the intent of his work. And that's a fact.

 

My astute observations prove that I'm not the one here who is 'blind'. You will learn that the delusion was yours. (You just don't know it yet.)

[Sweeping Strings 2,363]

10 hours ago, Mattris said:

  

 

Entertainment is frivolous. Star Wars should mean something, or we're wasting our time. (But just to reiterate, I'm not waiting for anything or anyone to make it meaningful to me.)

 

Ah, so you ARE aware of the concept of wasted time then? Interesting.  

[JTN 2,046]

“You just don’t know it yet” is the lamest, most convenient explanation  for religious people to give why God exists according to them. “The Lord works in mysterious ways.”
Why doesn’t he help us? “He does, you just don’t know when and how, but if anything good happens to you, it’s because of him, and if something bad happens to you, he let it happen for a reason.”

So utterly lame way of reasoning. It’s the reasoning of those who are afraid to admit that they just can’t prove what they believe in.
 

Again, how can someone like Matt be so afraid of admitting that Star Wars is just a kid’s movie? 
And why is he in the Disenchantment thread and not in the SW is better… thread?

He can’t seem to convince ONE PERSON on this forum. And the more we argue with him directly, the more this thread feels like a psych ward where he’s yelling out his crazy theories wearing a straitjacket.

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

15 hours ago, Mattris said:

Pablo Hidalgo has said on multiple occasions that Star Wars is a story being told. Each volume/episode of this story is told from a certain point of view, not objective fact or as if it were reality. The audience is not a fly on the wall. (The unreliable narrator comes to mind.)

He said he likes to see it that way, and honestly, if they work as he said they do, is the only way not to go insane.

[Mattris 416]

  

1 hour ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Ah, so you ARE aware of the concept of wasted time then? Interesting.  

 

What would you consider to be 'wasted time'?

 

49 minutes ago, JTW said:

... there is no great unknown mystery to be seen out there, just us. 

 

And you know this... how?  

 

49 minutes ago, JTW said:

Again, how can someone like Matt be so afraid of admitting that Star Wars is just a kid’s movie? 
And why is he in the Disenchantment thread and not in the SW is better… thread?

He can’t seem to convince ONE PERSON on this forum. And the more we argue with him directly, the more this thread feels like a psych ward where he’s yelling out his crazy theories wearing a straitjacket.

 

Still no evidence to support your position. You're not actually 'arguing' with me. You're just ignoring my astute observations... observations that fly in the face of your massive assumption that Star Wars is of little or no substance when there's a wall of evidence that indicates otherwise.

 

My Star Wars story progression logic is 100% sound. (But I doubt you'll ever admit it... or even address it.)

 

What does 'just a kid’s movie' even mean? Can't kid's movies offer valuable life lessons? As far as messaging goes, what do you think Star Wars is saying to its audience?

 

I suspect there are people on this forum that I've at least intrigued. But they dare not share their intrigue publicly for risk of being deemed a crazy conspiracy theorist sympathizer!

 

29 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

He said he likes to see it that way, and honestly, if they work as he said they do, is the only way not to go insane.

 

It's the only way to understand Star Wars properly.

[JTN 2,046]

I know this because I’m an adult. Simple as that. 
 

And if we keep arguing with a delusional person like Matt, we become like him. 
There is nothing to prove about a kid’s movie. If we were discussing THE SEVENTH SEAL or 12 ANGRY MEN, there would be a point in proving anything. But a kid’s movie, a space soap opera like Star Wars, only teenagers and delusional people try to convince themselves and others about anything. Sane people can simply enjoy it for what it is: escapist entertainment. 

Btw. every conspiracy theory is welcome in the Star Wars is better than everything thread. 
 

But has it occurred to them that maybe they are the ones who are wrong, just don’t understand it yet? What if they don’t get it? What if all their “evidence” is false? What if they were betrayed? Then what?

 

[Chen G. 3,950]

12 hours ago, Datameister said:

Partial list of Star Wars themes containing rising/falling minor thirds:

 

Not to disprove your point - to the contrary, actually - but that's like saying: "Here are all the words in Proust's À la recherche that use the syllable "la"... 

[Sweeping Strings 2,363]

Mention of Proust brought Python's Fish Licence sketch to mind, and seeing as this thread is already pretty absurd here's the relevant part of said sketch - 

 

The cast: 
 

PRALINE

John Cleese

CLERK

Michael Palin

SINGER

Eric Idle
 

The sketch:
 

Praline: (whistles a bit, then) Hello. I would like to buy a fish license, please.

Postal clerk: A what?

Praline: A license for my pet fish, Eric.

Clerk: How did you know my name was Eric?

Praline: No, no, no! My fish's name is Eric. Eric fish. He's an halibut.

Clerk: What?

Praline: He is an halibut.

Clerk: You've got a pet halibut?

Praline: Yes, I chose him out of thousands. I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

Clerk: You must be a loony.

Praline: I am not a loony. Why should I be tarred with the epithet 'loony' merely because I have a pet halibut? I've heard tell that Sir Gerald Nabarro has a pet prawn called Simon - you wouldn't call him a loony! Furthermore Dawn Pathorpe, the lady showjumper, had a clam called Stafford, after the late chancellor. Alan Bullock has two pikes, both called Chris, and Marcel Proust had an 'addock! So if you're calling the author of 'A la recherche de temps perdu' a loony, I shall have to ask you to step outside! 

[Tallguy 3,401]

13 minutes ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Mention of Proust brought Python's Fish Licence sketch to mind, and seeing as this thread is already pretty absurd here's the relevant part of said sketch - 

 

The cast: 
 

PRALINE

John Cleese

CLERK

Michael Palin

SINGER

Eric Idle
 

The sketch:
 

Praline: (whistles a bit, then) Hello. I would like to buy a fish license, please.

Postal clerk: A what?

Praline: A license for my pet fish, Eric.

Clerk: How did you know my name was Eric?

Praline: No, no, no! My fish's name is Eric. Eric fish. He's an halibut.

Clerk: What?

Praline: He is an halibut.

Clerk: You've got a pet halibut?

Praline: Yes, I chose him out of thousands. I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

Clerk: You must be a loony.

Praline: I am not a loony. Why should I be tarred with the epithet 'loony' merely because I have a pet halibut? I've heard tell that Sir Gerald Nabarro has a pet prawn called Simon - you wouldn't call him a loony! Furthermore Dawn Pathorpe, the lady showjumper, had a clam called Stafford, after the late chancellor. Alan Bullock has two pikes, both called Chris, and Marcel Proust had an 'addock! So if you're calling the author of 'A la recherche de temps perdu' a loony, I shall have to ask you to step outside! 

 

Spoken like a gentleman, sir.

 

Good grief, I've been saying that for decades and I completely forgot where it came from!

[JTN 2,046]

That’s more like it, discussing Proust! C’est bon! 

[Chen G. 3,950]

No thanks. That book's main raison d'etre is that merely reading out its name (usually to ladies) makes one seem suave and sophisticated. 

[JTN 2,046]

Et ça marche à chaque fois.

[Bespin 8,484]

[Mattris 416]

On 02/02/2024 at 7:16 AM, JTW said:

I know this because I’m an adult. Simple as that.

 

If only it were. The fact is, your reasoning here is entirely absent of logic and evidence. Adults should  be more rational than children, but it's not always the case.

 

On 02/02/2024 at 7:16 AM, JTW said:

And if we keep arguing with a delusional person like Matt, we become like him.

 

What's there to argue? I'm presenting evidence and facts. Whether you think these things mean anything is up to the individual. Reasonable might say, 'Those observations are interesting, especially in totality. You could be onto something. Let's see where it leads.'  Saying, 'You are delusional! It's a kid's movie!' is unreasonable, especially considering you brought absolutely nothing to the table in the way of logic or evidence.

 

Even though my conclusions, if accurate, would breathe new life into Star Wars, it seems you don't want the brand/story to be something better, something actually beneficial to its audience. I hope you don't want me to be wrong just so you aren't. That wouldn't be very 'adult' of you.

 

On 02/02/2024 at 7:16 AM, JTW said:

There is nothing to prove about a kid’s movie. If we were discussing THE SEVENTH SEAL or 12 ANGRY MEN, there would be a point in proving anything. But a kid’s movie, a space soap opera like Star Wars, only teenagers and delusional people try to convince themselves and others about anything. Sane people can simply enjoy it for what it is: escapist entertainment.

 

By George Lucas' very words, Star Wars was not created to be 'escapist entertainment'. It made it to help people learn valuable life lessons through a mythological story. The fairytale setting was a means to an end, opening the door for young people to be attracted to the story. The story was specifically designed not to be preachy.

 

Diminishing Star Wars as "a space soap opera" does nothing for you. Are soap operas for kids? Is this soap opera appropriate for kids because it's set in a galaxy far, far away... even though it contains some exceedingly deep elements like betrayal, moral conflict, torture, gruesome deaths, and entire planets destroyed?

 

Saying 'Star Wars is for kids' is a cop out. When you finally realize that it was so much more - as George Lucas and me  tried to warn you - you really shouldn't be surprised. But something tells me you will be... you will be.

 

"How embarrassing."  - Master Yoda

 

On 02/02/2024 at 7:16 AM, JTW said:

Btw. every conspiracy theory is welcome in the Star Wars is better than everything thread. 
 

But has it occurred to them that maybe they are the ones who are wrong, just don’t understand it yet? What if they don’t get it? What if all their “evidence” is false? What if they were betrayed? Then what?

 

On the contrary, has it occurred to you?

[bored 309]

You think if you compare the brain waves of a George Lucas fundamentalist and a religious fundamentalist they'd be the same?

[JTN 2,046]

What “more” was it? Can somebody tell me the Big Secret? What more is Star Wars that none of us has yet realized? What more is it other than a classic hero’s journey that was influenced by Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Kurosawa, westerns, John Carter, Dune, The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, even Star Trek?

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

38 minutes ago, bored said:

You think if you compare the brain waves of a George Lucas fundamentalist and a religious fundamentalist they'd be the same?

 

Would they be detectable?

[Chen G. 3,950]

57 minutes ago, JTW said:

The Lord of the Rings,

 

Less The Lord of the Rings, more The Hobbit.

 

I've seen no evidence that Lucas read The Lord of the Rings while working on the films. 1200-page books, fashioned as Medieval English romances, are frankly less his line of country. The Hobbit was much more suitable for him in terms of both the tone of it, and being far more digestible to a person who by all accounts is anything but a book-worm.

 

Virtually everything in these films (and in Lucas' larger filmography, e.g. Willow) that can be construed as coming from Tolkien, comes from The Hobbit, not from its big brother. Furthermore, those elements that ARE taken from the Hobbit, are overwhelmingly from the first few chapters at most.

 

We also have a paper-trail leading Lucas to The Hobbit - but not to The Lord of the Rings. Circa March 1975, George Lucas reads Edgar Rice Burroughs: Master of Adventure (Third Edition). In it, author Richard Lupoff quotes from a correspondence he had with Tolkien, author of The Hobbit, which Lucas is subsequently inspired to pick up at some point before August that year, when he inserts close paraphrases off of that book into his next draft.

[Mattris 416]

37 minutes ago, JTW said:

What “more” was it? Can somebody tell me the Big Secret? What more is Star Wars that none of us has yet realized? What more is it other than a classic hero’s journey that was influenced by Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Kurosawa, westerns, John Carter, Dune, The Lord of the Rings, even Star Trek?

 

If Star Wars is centered around Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey, then its story has not been completed... not by Anakin, Luke, Ben Solo, or Rey. Further evidence that it's not over yet.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

59 minutes ago, JTW said:

What more is Star Wars that none of us has yet realized?

 

It's 50% Star Trek. 

[JTN 2,046]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Less The Lord of the Rings, more The Hobbit.

Same universe. Gandalf, who Obi-Wan was modelled on, appears in both stories.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

Chen didn't know that.

[JTN 2,046]

Just like how Chen thought that I didn’t know that The Hobbit isn’t The Lord of the Rings. 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,950]

14 hours ago, JTW said:

Same universe. Gandalf, who Obi-Wan was modelled on, appears in both stories.

 

Not just Obi Wan, but also Yoda and to some extent Qui Gon, Noa and even the Emperor, to the extent that he was concieved as an evil Obi Wan. Yoda, in particular, like the earliest iterations of Obi Wan, does however resemble the more quirky Gandalf of The Hobbit than the one in The Lord of the Rings.

 

But Luke - in the context of the original film - has far more in common with Bilbo than with Frodo. And its certainly no coincidence that Luke, Anakin and Yoda all live in round halls in the ground: Bag-End is described in far greater detail in The Hobbit than in The Lord of the Rings.

 

There's other stuff, too: there may well be something of the Great Goblin to the later version of Jabba the Hutt, but that's a little more tenuous. But you'll note that's still from quite early on in the course of the book.

[JTN 2,046]

And this shows how original Star Wars is. 

[Chen G. 3,950]

You know, I didn’t delve into the influences on Star Wars to show that’s it’s derivative and, having done it, I still don’t think it is. Certainly with the elements it took from The Hobbit, it seems to me they were sublimated into the story pretty unobtrusively and certainly in terms of the scope of influence on Star Wars, it’s one of decidedly secondary importance.

 

That’s not to consecrate it a-la Mattris.

[Mattris 416]

Again, George Lucas said Star Wars is "an old story told in a new way"... a combination of various sources of inspiration.

 

Being fully "original" is not the mark of good art or storytelling. There's nothing new under the sun. What really matters is how you use the tools and information at hand.

[bored 309]

The Hobbit is a great book though. Not that LOTR isn't but The Hobbit is such a nice read whereas LOTR is a huge commitment. 

[greenturnedblue 372]

48 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Star Wars is centered around Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey

 

It isn't though 🤔

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

.

 

[Chen G. 3,950]

9 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

 

It isn't though 🤔

Right. And even if it were it would hardly improve Star Wars’ standing with the intelligentsia, being that Campbell’s book itself is pretty much hackwork.

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, greenturnedblue said:

It isn't though 🤔

 

Why do you think it isn't?  I'm just saying that if  Star Wars is a Hero's Journey then we have not seen the story's end. (It wouldn't even be close.)

[enderdrag64 624]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

Why do you think it isn't?  I'm just saying that if  Star Wars is a Hero's Journey then we have not seen the story's end. (It wouldn't even be close.)

 

[greenturnedblue 372]

If only Mattris could give his theories that amount of chest hair

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

And its certainly no coincidence that Luke, Anakin and Yoda all live in round halls in the ground: Bag-End is described in far greater detail in The Hobbit than in The Lord of the Rings.

 

I suppose there are rounded hallways in Bag End, and the Lars Moisture Farm, but where are the round hallways in the ground on Dagobah?

[JTN 2,046]

1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

I suppose there are rounded hallways in Bag End, and the Lars Moisture Farm, but where are the round hallways in the ground on Dagobah?

 

 

 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

2 minutes ago, JTW said:

 

 

That doesn't look like a hall.  A hole, sure, absolutely.  But a hole isn't a hall!

[JTN 2,046]

5 minutes ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

That doesn't look like a hall.  A hole, sure, absolutely.  But a hole isn't a hall!

 

Give the guy a break, he’s 900 years old, living alone on a swamp planet, and he had to build his hut alone while eating things that would make a billy goat puke. 

[Chen G. 3,950]

Mind you, in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, all the indication is Yoda is a native of Dagobah. In this, he's like Don Juan Mathos from Carlos Castaneda's books, which damn straight being that he quotes Don Juan verbatim.

 

But otherwise, he's really a kind of 1970s version of Gandalf: back then, they loved their Gandalfs quirky and eccentric.

[Tallguy 3,401]

8 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

If only Mattris could give his theories that amount of chest hair

 

Well, the central "theory" is that there are three films already in the can that are being kept more secret than most military engagements.

 

"Hey, some people think Solo suffered from a lack of buzz because we didn't market it at all until after The Last Jedi came out."

"Yeah? Well let's see what happens if we cast, staff, and produce THREE BLOCKBUSTER SCALE MOVIES and DON'T TELL ANYONE."

"Until right before the release?"

"Why not AFTER? (Maniacal laughter!)"

[JTN 2,046]

There is a thin line between genius and insanity.

 

[Chen G. 3,950]

Its a very clear line: I seek to prove things. Mattris assumes things are true until such time as they're proven wrong.

[Holko 9,531]

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

until such time as they're proven wrong.

At which point he says that's a lie and part of the deception.

[Mattris 416]

12 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

If only Mattris could give his theories that amount of chest hair

 

I've shared enough for any reasonable person to be intrigued. After my Emperor Palpatine theories were proven right, providing a mountain of evidence isn't necessary to prove I'm on the right track.

 

Why do you think Star Wars isn't a Hero's Journey?  Could it be a Hero's Journey - or a variation of one - that hasn't finished?

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Its a very clear line: I seek to prove things. Mattris assumes things are true until such time as they're proven wrong.

 

And have you proven anything, Chen? What do you think I have assumed? You can't even accept that the Star Wars Saga didn't end with Episode VI, nor admit why the story had  to continue.

[JTN 2,046]

No story HAS TO continue, unless its creator decides it should. Only a moron would think that he knows more about a story than its creator. 
Star Wars continued because George Lucas wanted it to, not because it had to. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

On 2/2/2024 at 2:48 AM, JTW said:

Matty is the perfect example of a true fanatic whose faith is indestructible.

 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

29 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I've shared enough for any reasonable person to be intrigued.

So you’re saying that all of us are unreasonable except you. Well that’s both classy and compelling!

 

21 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Hey, looks like I got to reply to this before Mattris saw it and could say it applies to the rest of us but not to him.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

I actually don't think Mattris is a fanatic, just a very effective troll.

 

Well, perhaps a fanatical troll, but a troll nonetheless.

[Datameister 2,044]

Just now, Nick1Ø66 said:

I actually don't think Mattris is a fanatic, just a very effective troll.

Oh absolutely.

 

Although … to be completely fair … I admit I never made the connection between Kylo's theme and the Emperor's until he mentioned it. The first four notes of the former are identical to a bit near the end of the latter. It's a cool link.

 

The odds, as I see them:

 

• 30% chance this was an intentional choice
• 8% chance JW did it because he'd been told the Emperor might later be returning
• 4% chance Mattris actually believes that Lucasfilm is engaged in a decades-long benevolent scheme to mislead and disappoint fans so they can be blown away by a fourth trilogy that was partially shot and scored with TROS
• 0.00001% chance that Lucasfilm actually is