Star Wars Disenchantment

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

49 minutes ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

The... carbon-freezing chamber?

 

The one they'd just used on Han?

 

To test if the process works so that they could use it on Luke?

 

So that they could bring him to The Emperor?

 

So that the Emperor can turn Luke to the Dark Side?

 

The film literally states outright that this is the Empire's plan.

As I belong to the "hive mind", I agree. But we're about to get schooled, I'm afraid.

 

Strap in...

[Chen G. 3,949]

53 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Strap in...

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Yes, strap on the tin foil hats and shield your brains from what's surely coming...

 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

"Who is more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?"  would seem most apt for this thread.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

We’re starved for entertainment.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

8 hours ago, Mattris said:

peoples should stick together to defeat/kill/destroy bad guys

at which time further defeating/killing/destroying becomes necessary.

 

Don't forget defrosting. There must be defrosting. 

 

[Mattris 416]

On 17/02/2024 at 8:25 AM, ThePenitentMan1 said:

The... carbon-freezing chamber?

 

The one they were about to use on Han?

 

To test if the process works so that they could use it on Luke?

 

So that they could bring him to The Emperor?

 

So that the Emperor can turn Luke to the Dark Side?

 

The film literally states outright that this is the Empire's plan.

 

It was Vader's idea to turn Luke to the Dark Side. He even made an offer to Luke that "together" they could "destroy The Emperor" and "rule the galaxy as father and son."

 

For someone with such grand intentions, why was Vader obsessed with finding the Millennium Falcon... instead of pursuing Luke directly?

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

So the movie could happen.

[Tom 4,661]

Giving in to the urge to visit this thread must be similar to how meth addicts feel.  

[PuerAzaelis 3]

It's Star Wars it's not holy writ

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

You say that now, but one day the great Star Wars cardinals and gurus will meet to codify a new canon and cast undeserving projects into the apocrypha.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

For someone with such grand intentions, why Vader was obsessed with finding the Millennium Falcon... instead of pursuing Luke directly?

 

So that he wouldn't have to put Luke through Force-Wielder 101 himself.

 

He let Yoda do it for him so that all he had to do was simply turn him to the Dark Side.

[Mattris 416]

4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

So the movie could happen.

 

Why do you think it was written with Vader obsessively going after the Falcon instead Luke?

 

1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

So that he wouldn't have to put Luke through Force-Wielder 101 himself.

 

He let Yoda do it for him so that all he had to do was simply turn him to the Dark Side.

 

What makes you think Vader knew Luke was being trained at all... or would see such a specific Force vision?

[Datameister 2,044]

https://wondermark.com/c/1k62/

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

4 hours ago, Tom said:

Giving in to the urge to visit this thread must be similar to how meth addicts feel.  

Yes, it's oddly compelling.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

Why do you think it was written with Vader obsessively going after the Falcon instead Luke?

The chase gave Han, Leia and Vader something interesting to do while Luke was training without them. Also, revealing that Vader was only after Luke at roughly the same time that Luke is shown to be making his way to Cloud City serves to raise the tension before father and son finally meet for their very first saber duel.

 

As Faleel pointed out below, Vader’s pursuit of Luke is mentioned in the title crawl.

[Faleel 5,353]

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

revealing that Vader was only after Luke at roughly the same time that Luke is shown to be making his way to Cloud City serves to raise the tension before father and son finally meet for their very first saber duel.

Ackchually:

 

"The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space...." ~ Opening Crawl

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Tsk, tsk, Faleel, you can’t expect people to read at the movies!

 

I guess Vader just knew the probes weren’t getting the job done and decided a trap might work better. I’m sure he also considered the Falcon and her crew easier to track and capture in tact and even if something went wrong in the pursuit, there was much less risk of accidentally getting Luke killed in the process.

[Faleel 5,353]

13 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

Tsk, tsk, Faleel, you can’t expect people to read at the movies!

 

I guess Vader just knew the probes weren’t getting the job done and decided a trap might work better. I’m sure he also considered the Falcon and her crew easier to track and capture in tact and even if something went wrong in the pursuit, there was much less risk of accidentally getting Luke killed in the process.

Not to mention, the Falcon stands out more, than a random x-Wing, so would possibly be easier to find/notice?

[Holko 9,526]

Yeah, we cut to the Falcon and it's in front of the SD's nose, they know where it is and can follow it. Luke just flew off in an X-Wing they didn't see or follow sometime later then jumped to hyperspace, of course they'll choose to directly pursue the ship they can see that has a faulty hyperdrive.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

Why do you think it was written with Vader obsessively going after the Falcon instead Luke?

 

 

What makes you think Vader knew Luke was being trained at all... or would see such a specific Force vision?

 

Can we just skip to the part where you tell us what you think is happening in these scenes?

 

What do you think Vader's trap in Empire was?

 

Why do you think Vader pursued the Falcon instead of going after Luke?

[Trope 527]

13 minutes ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

Can we just skip to the part where you tell us what you think is happening in these scenes?

 

What do you think Vader's trap in Empire was?

 

Why do you think Vader pursued the Falcon instead of going after Luke?

I am literally on the edge of my seat waiting to hear Mattris' answers to these questions. I pray he has compassion on us and deigns to shower us with his wisdom, providing clear and comprehensive responses so that we might begin to understand.

[Mattris 416]

  

6 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

The chase gave Han, Leia and Vader something interesting to do while Luke was training without them. Also, revealing that Vader was only after Luke at roughly the same time that Luke is shown to be making his way to Cloud City serves to raise the tension before father and son finally meet for their very first saber duel.

 

As Faleel pointed out below, Vader’s pursuit of Luke is mentioned in the title crawl.

 

What's "interesting" is that the Falcon was likely the only Rebel ship leaving Hoth without a functional hyperdrive. How (in)convenient!

 

"No lightspeed?"  - Princess Leia

"It's not my fault"  - Han Solo

 

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

I guess Vader just knew the probes weren’t getting the job done and decided a trap might work better. I’m sure he also considered the Falcon and her crew easier to track and capture in tact and even if something went wrong in the pursuit, there was much less risk of accidentally getting Luke killed in the process.

 

Probes, the Imperial Fleet, Vader's own powers. Until bounty hunters were hired, nothing was getting the job done. What was the trap?

 

3 hours ago, Faleel said:

Not to mention, the Falcon stands out more, than a random x-Wing, so would possibly be easier to find/notice?

 

It was never a matter of the Falcon being "easier to find/notice". The point was that it was the only ship Vader wanted. Apparently his trap had something to do with it.

 

"He doesn't want you at all. He's after somebody... uh, Skywalker."  - Lando Calrissian

 

57 minutes ago, Holko said:

Yeah, we cut to the Falcon and it's in front of the SD's nose, they know where it is and can follow it. Luke just flew off in an X-Wing they didn't see or follow sometime later, they can only be directly after the ship they know the location of!

 

Yet Vader and the Imperial Fleet lost the Falcon time after time... a ship without hyperdrive. Idiots!

 

50 minutes ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

Can we just skip to the part where you tell us what you think is happening in these scenes?

 

What do you think Vader's trap in Empire was?

 

Why do you think Vader pursued the Falcon instead of going after Luke?

 

Not so fast. I want to know how you think the main story of The Empire Strikes Back  came together... a film that many - if not, most - Star Wars fans consider the best of the series. Surely you've made sense of it.

 

Again, what makes you think Vader knew Luke was being trained? Was Vader's so-called 'trap' contingent on Luke experiencing a specific Force vision... before Vader had actually captured the Falcon's crew? As shown in the film, Boba Fett located the Falcon. It was insinuated that Fett reported its probable destination to Vader, who proceeded ahead to Bespin.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

56 minutes ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

Why do you think Vader pursued the Falcon instead of going after Luke?

 

Because he had read the dark predictions of Mattris. 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

3 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Not so fast. I want to know how you think the main story of The Empire Strikes Back  comes together... a film that many - if not, most - Star Wars fans consider the best of the series. Surely you've made sense of it.

 

Alright, then.

 

Vader's Trap was:

 

17 hours ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

The... carbon-freezing chamber.

 

The one they were about to use on Han.

 

To test if the process works so that they could use it on Luke.

 

So that they could bring him to The Emperor.

 

So that the Emperor can turn Luke to the Dark Side Vader and Luke can overthrow the Emperor.

 

The film literally states outright that this is the Empire's plan.

 

If you have any reason to believe this isn't the case, don't beat around the bush.

 

TELL US.

 

What could the film possibly be hiding from us that this isn't Vader's plan in ESB?

 

Hurry up, Goldenrod, you're gonna be a permanent resident!

[Mattris 416]

The carbon-freezing chamber wasn't really part of the trap. It was just the mechanism by which Vader intended to "freeze Skywalker for his journey to the Emperor". Luke temporarily fell for it (pun intended) but emerged to continue the duel.

 

Let's recap Luke Skywalker's experience in Episode V: Advised to go to Dagobah ("a slimy mudhole"), Luke abandoned his Jedi training on a whim... specifically, after experiencing a vision of his friends in pain and suffering. Ironically, Luke needed to be saved by them... after he risked death by long fall... after losing a hand and learning a shocking truth, one that Obi-Wan and Yoda decided not to reveal to him, for some reason.

 

I supposed the question that should come up more in Star Wars fan circles:  How did Darth Vader know to expect Luke at Cloud City, much less, at that specific time?

 

I think there's a logical explanation that wasn't spoon-fed. (Hint: Context is needed.)

 

Sorry, I'm not going to spoon-feed it to you, either.

[Trope 527]

@Mattris Please, please, please help us to understand Darth Vader's plan!

 

"Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope." - Princess Leia Organa, from Star Wars

 

"Tell us. Tell us now!" - Anakin Skywalker, from Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones

 

"Somebody has to save our skins." - Princess Leia Organa, from Star Wars

 

"The greatest teacher, failure is. We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters." - Yoda, from Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

47 minutes ago, Mattris said:

The carbon-freezing chamber wasn't really part of the trap. It was just the mechanism by which Vader intended to "freeze Skywalker for his journey to the Emperor". Luke temporarily fell for it (pun intended) but emerged to continue the duel.

 

Yes.  Which makes it part of the trap.

 

47 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Let's recap Luke Skywalker's experience in Episode V: Advised to go to Dagobah ("a slimy mudhole"), Luke abandoned his Jedi training on a whim... specifically, after experiencing a vision of his friends from pain and suffering. Ironically, he needed to be saved by them... after he risked death by long fall... after losing a hand and learning a shocking truth, one that Obi-Wan and Yoda decided not to reveal to him, for some reason.

 

I supposed the question that should come up more in Star Wars fan circles:  How did Darth Vader know to expect Luke at Cloud City at that specific time?

 

I think there's a logical explanation that wasn't spoon-fed. (Hint: Context is needed.)

 

If you actually paid attention to the film's context, you'd know that Vader had Han and Leia tortured for the express purpose of making sure Luke would come to Cloud City.

 

And before you circle back to "Oh, but why was he obsessed with the Falcon instead of Luke?", as other posters here have observed, Vader clearly wasn't interested in the Falcon until after the Battle Of Hoth ended.  At that point, they lost track of Luke's X-Wing, so Vader came up with a plan to capture the Falcon and torture its crew to bait Luke into coming to him.

 

47 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Sorry, I'm not going to spoon-feed it to you, either.

 

You're the one who brought up Vader's plan in ESB.

If you're not interested in sharing this alternate explanation that's supposedly "better" than the one taken directly from the actual film's context, then don't.  I'm satisfied with the explanation derived from the film's actual context.

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

Yes.  Which makes it part of the trap.

 

Technically, yes. But the carbon-freezing element wasn't the focus of the so-called trap, just the intended way by which "young Skywalker" would have been taken away.

 

1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

If you actually paid attention to the film's context, you'd know that Vader had Han and Leia tortured for the express purpose of making sure Luke would come to Cloud City.

 

I paid attention enough to notice that Vader captured and tortured the Falcon's crew after  Luke had already left Dagobah. The movie showed that Luke saw the vision before  Han, Leia, and Chewie had even set foot on Cloud City!

 

So how exactly did Vader 'make sure Luke would come to Cloud City'? Did he just assume  that Luke would experience a very specific vision of the future... and at a specific time in the past?

 

"Through The Force, Things You Will See. Other Places. The Future, The Past. Old Friends Long Gone."

 

How did Yoda know what Luke saw had been the future? How did he know it wasn't the past or present? If the vision just happened  so that Luke would finally go to the next location, I would consider it poor storytelling.

 

1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

And before you circle back to "Oh, but why was he obsessed with the Falcon instead of Luke?", as other posters here have observed, Vader clearly wasn't interested in the Falcon until after the Battle Of Hoth ended.  At that point, they lost track of Luke's X-Wing, so Vader came up with a plan to capture the Falcon and torture its crew to bait Luke into coming to him.

 

How did Vader bait Luke? Based on the timeline of events, truly think about it.

 

1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

You're the one who brought up Vader's plan in ESB.

 

If you're not interested in sharing this alternate explanation that's supposedly "better" than the one taken directly from the actual film's context, then don't.  I'm satisfied with the explanation derived from the film's actual context.

 

What is your explanation? I don't know how you can be satisfied.

 

Based solely on what was portrayed in the film, what happened regarding Vader's plan is presented as a mystery.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

38 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

Technically, yes. But the carbon-freezing element wasn't the focus of the so-called trap, just the intended way by which "young Skywalker" would have been taken away.

 

Alright, sure.

 

38 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I paid attention enough to notice that Vader captured and tortured the Falcon's crew after  Luke had already left Dagobah. The movie showed that Luke saw the vision before  Han, Leia, and Chewie had even set foot on Cloud City!

 

So how exactly did Vader 'make sure Luke would come to Cloud City'? Did he just assume  that Luke would experience a very specific vision of the future... and at a specific time in the past?

 

"Through The Force, Things You Will See. Other Places. The Future, The Past. Old Friends Long Gone."

 

How did Yoda know what Luke saw had been the future? How did he know it wasn't the past or present? If the vision just happened  so that Luke would finally go to the next location, I would consider it poor storytelling.

 

How did Vader bait Luke? Based on the timeline of events, truly think about it.

 

It doesn't matter a hill of beans when Luke saw this vision.  It doesn't affect Vader's plan in any way whether Luke experienced this vision at the same time as Han and Leia's torture or beforehand in a premonition.

 

Vader couldn't possibly know (and certainly wouldn't care!) whether Luke found out in direct ripples in the Force, or through a Force premonition, or, heck, even through a holonews headline stating outright that Han and Leia were being tortured in Cloud City.

 

Literally the only thing that would affect is how long it would've taken Luke to get to Cloud City.  So this whole "timeline" thing is really beside the point.

 

All Vader needed to know was that Luke's friends were aboard the Falcon.  From there you can easily see how he'd make the connection to "If I torture Luke's friends, he'll feel it in the Force (because the Force is strong with him, as we've already established), and then he'll come to rescue them!"

 

38 minutes ago, Mattris said:

What is your explanation? I don't know how you can be satisfied.

 

Based solely on what was portrayed in the film, what happened regarding Vader's plan is presented as a mystery.

 

Only if you disregard the film's context and read too much into irrelevant timeline "discrepancies".

 

I paid attention to the film's context, that is the reason I can be satisfied with this explanation.

[Giftheck 916]

Sigh...

 

Remember when this thread was about disenchantment with Star Wars?

 

Good times...

[Trope 527]

20 minutes ago, Giftheck said:

Sigh...

 

Remember when this thread was about disenchantment with Star Wars?

 

Good times...

"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." - Kylo Ren, from Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

It doesn't matter a hill of beans when Luke saw this vision.  It doesn't affect Vader's plan in any way whether Luke experienced this vision at the same time as Han and Leia's torture or beforehand in a premonition.

 

Yes, it absolutely does matter when Luke saw the vision because it affects causation. Too soon, and the necessary character development would not have been achieved. (For instance, if Luke had seen he vision 5 minutes after he had arrived on Dagobah, he would have left his training and gotten to Cloud City days/weeks early.)

 

Luke didn't experience the vision "at the same time as Han and Leia's torture". He experienced it before Han, Leia, and Chewie had even reached Cloud City. Why do you continue to ignore this critical fact?

 

1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

Vader couldn't possibly know (and certainly wouldn't care!) whether Luke found out in direct ripples in the Force, or through a Force premonition, or, heck, even through a holonews headline stating outright that Han and Leia were being tortured in Cloud City.

 

Literally the only thing that would affect is how long it would've taken Luke to get to Cloud City.  So this whole "timeline" thing is really beside the point.

 

Grasping the reality of the timeline seems to be your critical misunderstanding.

 

How did Vader "possibly know" that Luke could - and would - experience a vision of Han and Leia being tortured in Cloud City... before Vader had even done the torturing?

 

Your summary of what happened:

 

1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

"If I torture Luke's friends, he'll feel it in the Force (because the Force is strong with him, as we've already established), and then he'll come to rescue them!"

 

... is not what occurred.  It was not an if/then scenario.

 

Do you think Vader just hoped Luke would experience a very specific vision of the future at a specific time in the past... and that Luke would accept it as a future that would likely come to pass... and that he would come to Cloud City at the ideal time? Seriously?

 

1 hour ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

Only if you disregard the film's context and read too much into irrelevant timeline "discrepancies".

 

I paid attention to the film's context, that is the reason I can be satisfied with this explanation.

 

No, you have clearly disregarded the film's context. Crucially, you don't seem to have realized that Vader was incompetent throughout the film. (Throughout the entire OT, actually.)

 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

My God, what a boring discussion this has become.

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

My God, what a boring discussion this has become.

You claim the discussion is boring, but what examples have you cited to substantiate this claim?

 

I submit that your inability to derive enjoyment from this discussion stems from a fundamental misreading of Star Wars and an inability to grasp its contextual subtleties.

 

But what do you think this discussion means?

 

[Trope 527]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

Yes, it absolutely does matter when Luke saw the vision because it affects causation. Too soon, and the necessary character development would not have been achieved. (For instance, if Luke had seen he vision 5 minutes after he had arrived on Dagobah, he would have left his training and gotten to Cloud City days/weeks early.)

 

Luke didn't experience the vision "at the same time as Han and Leia's torture". He experienced it before Han, Leia, and Chewie had even reached Cloud City. Why do you continue to ignore this critical fact?

 

 

Grasping the reality of the timeline seems to be your critical misunderstanding.

 

How did Vader "possibly know" that Luke could - and would - experience a vision of Han and Leia being tortured in Cloud City... before Vader had even done the torturing?

 

Your summary of what happened:

 

 

... is not what occurred.  It was not an if/then scenario.

 

Do you think Vader just hoped Luke would experience a very specific vision of the future at a specific time in the past... and that Luke would accept it as a future that would likely come to pass... and that he would come to Cloud City at the ideal time? Seriously?

 

 

No, you have clearly disregarded the film's context. Crucially, you don't seem to have realized that Vader was incompetent throughout the film. (Throughout the entire OT, actually.)

 

Mattris, these kinds of unclear and reactionary responses are becoming old fast. Please at least provide us with your interpretation of events without tossing the ball back in our court.
 

You’ve made your position clear, that most of us don’t understand the films properly and haven’t dedicated sufficient time to the same degree of intensive study and research as you. Now, as a Star Wars fan (at least in my childhood and teenage years), I’m genuinely fascinated to hear what you personally understand about the plot that the rest of us haven’t yet been able to grasp (and particularly on this whole issue of Darth Vader’s plan in TESB). I beg of you, no more obfuscation.

At least try to help us see…

“I feel the good in you, the conflict.”

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

4 minutes ago, Trope said:

At least try to help us see…

“I feel the good in you, the conflict.”

 

 

Don't worry, this goodwill will dissipate in time. 

[Datameister 2,044]

I gotta admit, this is one of Mattris's less entertaining detours. I expect better.

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

3 minutes ago, Datameister said:

I gotta admit, this is one of Mattris's less entertaining detours. I expect better.

He's entering his "prequel era".

[greenturnedblue 372]

My mom said I'm not allowed to play with you guys any more 😞

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

God, if that’s true, I shudder to think about his inevitable sequel era.

[mstrox 6,651]

In his sequel era, he sells all of his conspiracy theories to me for billions of dollars, and thenI just kinda make up whatever stupid shit I feel like.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Sounds like a nice change of pace honestly.

[Holko 9,526]

57 minutes ago, mstrox said:

and thenI just kinda make up whatever stupid shit I feel like.

So no change?

 

 

 

Is this familiar to anyone else?

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

6 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

You claim the discussion is boring, but what examples have you cited to substantiate this claim?

 

I submit that your inability to derive enjoyment from this discussion stems from a fundamental misreading of Star Wars and an inability to grasp its contextual subtleties.

 

But what do you think this discussion means?

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

3 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

My mom said I'm not allowed to play with you guys any more 😞

So you're out for the sleepover next Saturday?

[Trope 527]

48 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

So you're out for the sleepover next Saturday?

That sucks, we were going to watch The Empire Strikes Back together and analyse it in detail...

[bored 309]

Wait, we weren't supposed to do that before...?

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

5 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

My mom said I'm not allowed to play with you guys any more 😞

 

2 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

So you're out for the sleepover next Saturday?

Guys, this is a family forum. Take it to Tinder.