The Official "Album Presentation vs Complete & Chronological Presentation" Thread Round 2

[Edmilson 7,474]

At this point, I think more John Williams fans have heard the prequel scores C&C over the years than their OST presentations, especially for TPM, which has the Ultimate Edition and countless bootlegs floating around the internet.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

6 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

At this point, I think more John Williams fans have heard the prequel scores C&C over the years than their OST presentations, especially for TPM, which has the Ultimate Edition and countless bootlegs floating around the internet.

 

Ironic that the most listened to presentations of the prequel scores are probably fan edits at this point. Come on, Disney Records!

[Schilkeman 964]

3 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

Everything else is just a flute fucking around under dialogue

It's actually brilliantly, structurally important to the central concept of the entire film, but sure.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

Hey, to each their own, but IMO Phantom Menace has some of the best "boring" underscore in the entire saga. The atmosphere of that score is really unique. I really didn't appreciate it enough years ago.

 

@bruce marshall Something to say, have you? 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

Bruce is trying to cultivate a more positive reputation around here.

 

He's realized that disparaging C&C fans is the wrong way to do that.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

I've gone down the multiple playlists path more and more precisely because there is no one best, definitive way to listen to a score. If I know I'm about to drive for 80 mins to a hike, I might put on the FotR OST, whereas at home I've got the time and environment for a more comprehensive, detailed listen and I delve into the CR.

 

Then there's The Mummy, Sleepy Hollow, Gladiator and more where the OST has both a concise listening experience and some unique takes and assemblies, but the expansion/boot/promo/whatever has all those extra bits and unique takes that I'd like instead sometimes.

 

So I don't think it's always a static argument about 'OST is better', but which one are you in the mood and schedule/environment for right now?

[Jurassic Shark 12,094]

3 hours ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

Bruce is trying to cultivate a more positive reputation around here.

 

He's realized that disparaging C&C fans is the wrong way to do that.

 

He's more machine than man, now.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

24 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

He's more machine than man, now.

 

I know there's still good in him!

[Schilkeman 964]

This argument seems to be flaring up again with the Dial of Destiny OST. I haven't heard it enough to form an opinion on the assembly, but the way some are carrying on about omitted materiel reminded me of this thread. Personally, I think he should have made it short enough to fit on a single lp, really go old school, just to piss people off. 

[Thor 7,523]

2 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

This argument seems to be flaring up again with the Dial of Destiny OST. I haven't heard it enough to form an opinion on the assembly, but the way some are carrying on about omitted materiel reminded me of this thread. Personally, I think he should have made it short enough to fit on a single lp, really go old school, just to piss people off. 

 

He, he. After having listened to the OST a few times now, I also think it could have improved with a little bit of shortening. Perhaps some 20 minutes weeded off would have given it greater focus and momentum.

[GerateWohl 4,378]

People today just have too much time to listen to music. Probably that is why these albums are so long.

[bollemanneke 3,352]

I've lately started to appreciate the album experience a lot more. Having said that, it only works when the producer knows what they're doing and sadly JW hardly ever does. And also having said that, as a film score tells a story, the c&c presentation should ALWAYS be available.

[MedigoScan 324]

After all this time I have yet to see an album that makes me support JW's decisions.

[Thor 7,523]

1 hour ago, MedigoScan said:

After all this time I have yet to see an album that makes me support JW's decisions.

 

That's interesting, because I find JW the best album producer in the film music world.

[Schilkeman 964]

15 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

That's interesting, because I find JW the best album producer in the film music world.

I agree. I think people have a hard time divorcing the narrative of the film from the music they are listening to. Phantom Menace is a prime example of an ost that makes no sense if your trying to follow what happens in the film, but works wonders as a listening experience because it's paced well, and assembled to flow musically, regardless of the film narrative.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

He, he. After having listened to the OST a few times now, I also think it could have improved with a little bit of shortening. Perhaps some 20 minutes weeded off would have given it greater focus and momentum.

 

I'm probably of a similar mind to you at the moment in that I don't think the entire album is essential, although I'd probably drop only a handful of cues for optimum listening.

 

Having said that, I echo bolle's view above, that if you go down the proper, curative route for an album, the full score would ideally be available for those who want it. Hence those such as your good self get your album, and those who attach themselves more strongly to the score get their album.

 

Actually, I have an ever-expanding list of scores where I have both in my playlist and I can choose whether I want a conceptual album for the next hour, or if I want to delve more deeply into a film.

 

44 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

That's interesting, because I find JW the best album producer in the film music world.

 

Instead of debating the original topic endlessly, I find that a more interesting discussion is why JW is seen here as both the best album producer, and the worst, by different people.

 

I agre 100% that in terms of trying to 'neaten' a score down to a concept album, the formula JW is using is bang on - the JP OST - the arrangement of suites is masterful.

 

But where he loses a lot of us is when he takes what in the film is a perfect narrative sequence, and takes it apart for the album because he thinks that makes the listenability better.... but it doesn't. Or where he takes a 5 minute cue and decides to remove a few moments from it, but to our honest ears, there's no conceivable creative reason for it - we genuinely cannot understand why JW thinks those cues sound better truncated.

 

Hence in terms of mindset and view of the end goal, JW has the prime approach for an initial curated album. I personally think that he's just really bad at the execution when you consider all of the materials he has to work with and how the music was originally, narratively composed.

 

And for the record, I've always seen TPM and AotC as concept albums. I'm not interested in the films, so they are a rare JW case of treating them as concept albums. And you know, TPM's not bad at all. (you may implcitly glean my view of the AotC score. It's not charitable.)

[Thor 7,523]

24 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Hence in terms of mindset and view of the end goal, JW has the prime approach for an initial curated album. I personally think that he's just really bad at the execution when you consider all of the materials he has to work with and how the music was originally, narratively composed.

 

But therein lies the conundrum, doesn't it? JW almost instinctually understands that "how the music was originally, narratively composed" doesn't automatically work when there's no film anymore. So he creates wonderful new journeys by shuffling things around, creating more understandable beginnings, middles and ends, perhaps repeating a theme to punctuate these new structures. JURASSIC PARK is pretty much perfection in that regard.

 

Of course, he's not perfect. There are some instances where I would have been even more radical in weeding things down. Like DIAL OF DESTINY, which I just mentioned, and HOOK, where some of the last act meanders a bit.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

Ah but I think that he looks too negatively on his work when there's no film, and takes a sequence that would work fine on album, but he thinks it doesn't. Or he thinks a particular section doesn't work and edits it out... but it was fine as it was.

 

He's the most modest composer alive, pretty much - he thinks his music needs much more arranging to make it listenable than it does.

 

Jurassic Park is genius when it comes to combing cues, but in my view at least, a pretty bad job when arranging the overall album sequence. That's not even when considering the film - I just think that certain flows within the album content are far superior when arranged in largely film order.

 

Hence that's actually my main argument here - it's just disagreement over the specific choices JW routinely makes within a curation procedure that we largely agree on.

[GerateWohl 4,378]

Jurassic Park OST has too many repetition to really count AS a perfectly assembled album.

 

For Dial of Destiny I would also go for an OST just consisting of pure album arrangements of the major themes and a handfull of film tracks, like E.T. for example or The Eiger Sanction or Jaws. And a little later a well curated C&C edition, but not 10 years later.

34 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Ah but I think that he looks too negatively on his work when there's no film, and takes a sequence that would work fine on album, but he thinks it doesn't. Or he thinks a particular section doesn't work and edits it out... but it was fine as it was.

We don't always know the history of these decisions. Maybe the shortened version was the first one Williams created and he had to extend it for the re-edited movie. But he liked the initial version better because it was in his view the original and not a shortened version.

[filmmusic 1,843]

There are listeners and there are listeners.

I will say this again:

John Wiliiams, or whoever else, make their album presentations for the casual listener!

Not ardent film music fans.

 

[Thor 7,523]

25 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Jurassic Park OST has too many repetition to really count AS a perfectly assembled album.

 

I disagree. The repetitions are crucial in the genius of this OST. There's a beautiful ebb and flow, almost sonata-like (home-away-home again) to the whole structure. Some mysterious bits, then opening up with the main theme(s), then mysterious or intimate again etc.

 

A.I. is another masterful album. I wrote a review for its 20th anniversary (in Norwegian) here, and here's a Google-translated transcript of a paragraph:

 

Quote

But the lovely original soundtrack from 2001 is the one to have and listen to, in my opinion – perfectly curated and presented; not so much "film correct" as an independent, symphonic work that can be enjoyed on a more conceptual level. Which oscillates between cold and warm landscapes - the first half introduces us to the slightly alien robot world, the middle part alternates between the core themes and the darker, aggressive parts where David and Gigolo Joe struggle in different directions, while the last part of the album lands us safely in reconciliation and bittersweet security .

 

In general, I think Williams is a master at "abstracting" the score he's written when he makes albums. Removing it from the film as far as possible, which is my ideal approach. He does this through repetitions, rerecorded setpieces, concert arrangements etc. But also by placing the cues that are directly from the film in an order that creates a fresh "concept". When one can't change the cues themselves, he brilliantly picks out the most musically independent ones and places them perfectly where they need to be.

 

To me, he's a MODEL album producer. Wish more composers followed his example.

[filmmusic 1,843]

22 minutes ago, Thor said:

A.I. is another masterful album.

A.I.?

That is the worst Williams album I've ever heard, if you ask me...

[Schilkeman 964]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

(you may implcitly glean my view of the AotC score. It's not charitable.)

Aww, my 7th favorite JW score.

 

51 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

John Wiliiams, or whoever else, make their album presentations for the casual listener!

Not ardent film music fans.

But he does not write music for the casual listener. Regardless of the ordering, the music itself is still complex and rewarding for close listening.

[Thor 7,523]

17 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

A.I.?

That is the worst Williams album I've ever heard, if you ask me...

 

Yes, but we're polar opposites when it comes to album presentation preference, so that's not really surprising.

[GerateWohl 4,378]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

I disagree. The repetitions are crucial in the genius of this OST. There's a beautiful ebb and flow, almost sonata-like (home-away-home again) to the whole structure. Some mysterious bits, then opening up with the main theme(s), then mysterious or intimate again etc.

That's kind of a Chewbacca defense for the album. But even that poor assembly could not prevent the score from shining. At least we can agree that it's a great score.

[Thor 7,523]

23 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

That's kind of a Chewbacca defense for the album.

 

I'm not sure what that means, but yes -- we definitely agree it's a great score. I think it's the best one ever written, even.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

I disagree. The repetitions are crucial in the genius of this OST. There's a beautiful ebb and flow, almost sonata-like (home-away-home again) to the whole structure. Some mysterious bits, then opening up with the main theme(s), then mysterious or intimate again etc.

 

Aside from the usual debate, hard disagree here. The OST is absolutely all over the place in terms of tone, with music that evokes either wonder or threats put in places that are completely at odds with the story being told, and mean that one minute Williams starts ratcheting up the tension, then suddenly hits the brakes and gives some happy drums for entering the park in the first place.

 

Again, the suites are genius, but IMO it's one of the worst track orderings in Williams' history of making albums. There's no storytelling whatsoever.

 

I know you don't care one ounce about the story in terms of the film, but this is not an album of generic dinosaur music from Williams - there should be some expectation that he's bringing SS's film to life, and that means not abandoning all sense of narrative just to make a concept album.

[GerateWohl 4,378]

10 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

I'm not sure what that means,...

 

[Richard Penna 3,696]

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

Aww, my 7th favorite JW score.

 

Sorry

 

It's not a view I express too much, in the spirit of keeping positive, constructive discussion going (and I know I'm against the grain), but I find AotC one of the most boring scores Williams has ever composed. And it's not the film - I've never seen TPM either but there's a decent listening experience in its OST.

[Thor 7,523]

8 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I know you don't care one ounce about the story in terms of the film, but this is not an album of generic dinosaur music from Williams - there should be some expectation that he's bringing SS's film to life, and that means not abandoning all sense of narrative just to make a concept album.

 

You're right, I don't care about the film when I listen to albums. But JW doesn't "abandon all sense of narrative". Rather, he creates new ones that are more abstract, more independent, and less tied to the film. More musical. He doesn't just present the music, he REpresents it. That's his great skill; his understanding that music behaves differently in a film than it does on album.

[bollemanneke 3,352]

4 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

I agree. I think people have a hard time divorcing the narrative of the film from the music they are listening to. Phantom Menace is a prime example of an ost that makes no sense if your trying to follow what happens in the film, but works wonders as a listening experience because it's paced well, and assembled to flow musically, regardless of the film narrative.

But that's my entire problem: why on earth would anyone want to hear the music to a film in an order that's utterly illogical compared to that movie?

4 hours ago, Thor said:

 

But therein lies the conundrum, doesn't it? JW almost instinctually understands that "how the music was originally, narratively composed" doesn't automatically work when there's no film anymore. So he creates wonderful new journeys by shuffling things around, creating more understandable beginnings, middles and ends, perhaps repeating a theme to punctuate these new structures. JURASSIC PARK is pretty much perfection in that regard.

 

Of course, he's not perfect. There are some instances where I would have been even more radical in weeding things down. Like DIAL OF DESTINY, which I just mentioned, and HOOK, where some of the last act meanders a bit.

I actually think Hook is the only approach that works for me: present chronological highlights without messing with structural things.

[Bellosh 3,419]

7 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

But that's my entire problem: why on earth would anyone want to hear the music to a film in an order that's utterly illogical compared to that movie?

 

I mean it works in certain cases.

 

Shark Cage Fugue is a perfect example on the 2000 release.  It works so well early on in the listening experience.  I almost can't even stand hearing it in it's true film spot. 

[Thor 7,523]

45 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

I actually think Hook is the only approach that works for me: present chronological highlights without messing with structural things.

 

Just be clear, I think HOOK is a brilliant album for the most part. It's just that "Ultimate War" thingie towards the end that kinda goes on my nerves after a while. Could have been cut down a little bit. 60 minutes is probably perfect for HOOK. Actually, I also have a similar criticism with JP as well. As I said earlier, it's pretty much perfection as far as I'm concerned, but perhaps just a tiny, tiny bit too much of monster sturm-und-drang towards the end with the T-Rex rescue and all that.

 

4 hours ago, filmmusic said:

There are listeners and there are listeners.

I will say this again:

John Wiliiams, or whoever else, make their album presentations for the casual listener!

Not ardent film music fans.

 

Fuck me! That's 30+ years of film music geekhood down the drain!

[Schilkeman 964]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

But that's my entire problem: why on earth would anyone want to hear the music to a film in an order that's utterly illogical compared to that movie?

Because music is inherently abstract and not necessarily subject to the needs of a linear narrative to be interesting of itself. There’s plenty of JW’s soundtracks to films I’ve never seen, but the music is interesting enough that I don’t need to. Of course, it helps to have a working knowledge, or at least a deep appreciation, of art music to get something out of the listening experience beyond “I can hum that.”

[Edmilson 7,474]

10 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Personally, I think he should have made it short enough to fit on a single lp, really go old school, just to piss people off. 

Tracklist:

1. Helena's Theme
2. The Dial of Destiny (suite composed of many small parts from everywhere in the movie)
3. Raiders March (exactly as the concert suite he has been performing since 1981)
4. Helena's Theme (For Violin and Orchestra)

[Thor 7,523]

7 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Tracklist:

1. Helena's Theme
2. The Dial of Destiny (suite composed of many small parts from everywhere in the movie)
3. Raiders March (exactly as the concert suite he has been performing since 1981)
4. Helena's Theme (For Violin and Orchestra)

Oooooh. Tantalizing!

[1977 1,743]

8 hours ago, MedigoScan said:

After all this time I have yet to see an album that makes me support JW's decisions.

 

It's because his music is too good. He needed to write more mediocre filler type cues that no one would miss.

 

2 hours ago, Thor said:

 Actually, I also have a similar criticism with JP as well. As I said earlier, it's pretty much perfection as far as I'm concerned, but perhaps just a tiny, tiny bit too much of monster sturm-und-drang towards the end with the T-Rex rescue and all that.

 

I would have been happy for Welcome to Jurassic Park to have been moved to the end, and End Credits to have been left off, but please don't touch my T-Rex Finale and Rescue

[Schilkeman 964]

22 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Tracklist:

1. Helena's Theme
2. The Dial of Destiny (suite composed of many small parts from everywhere in the movie)
3. Raiders March (exactly as the concert suite he has been performing since 1981)
4. Helena's Theme (For Violin and Orchestra)

Clean. Efficient. 

[Edmilson 7,474]

I'll just copy and paste the same comment I've made a year ago on the JWD thread that contains my opinion over this subject matter:

 

My official stance on this matter is that it depends of which score we're talking about.

 

Some scores are better represented in its complete form, like, for example, The Lord of the Rings. You can only grasp at what Shore has achieved if you are aware of his music in complete form. 

 

This is why I've been longing for a complete release of The Patriot. The true beauty of this score will be revealed in its fullest form once it gets the "Matessino treatment".

 

However, I, a "completionist", do admit that, with some scores (like almost all of Gia's body of work) you can pretty much have an idea of all that a score has to offer with a 60 to 75 minute collection that includes all the highlights and important beats and excludes the "boring suspense cues". These unnecessary tracks don't add nothing to the main body of score and they just make the experience of listening to the album more tiresome, which in turn detracts from the highlights.

 

TLDR: It depends of the score, not all of them are best represented in complete form.

 

I know the subject is more complex than this (JWFan members have been discussing it for years now), but in general that's my opinion.

[Thor 7,523]

23 minutes ago, JTWfan77 said:

I would have been happy for Welcome to Jurassic Park to have been moved to the end, and End Credits to have been left off, but please don't touch my T-Rex Finale and Rescue

 

No worries, I dig it too! A dramatic climax to the experience. It's just that if I had to put my finger on something in the otherwise perfect JP, it would be that.

[Jurassic Shark 12,094]

Now you're just trolling, Thor.

[1977 1,743]

10 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Some scores are better represented in its complete form, like, for example, The Lord of the Rings. You can only grasp at what Shore has achieved if you are aware of his music in complete form. 

 

TLDR: It depends of the score, not all of them are best represented in complete form.

 

I'll just add that often the middle ground of an expansion without going the full C&C route can be a valid approach for some scores.