Rings of Power The Rings of Power show discussion - spoilers allowed for all aired episodes

[Chen G. 3,949]

You know, it just struck me: people like to make those equivalances but this show feels neither like The Hobbit nor The Lord of the Rings. You know what it feels like? Tolkien. Not as in his writings, as in the biopic from 2019. By which I mean to say is that it feels like 20-century-set drama smeared with a Medieval paintjob: so many of the situations are just so...mundane: a young girl is bullied, a person reprimands his friend for missing his wedding, a father is upset with his children's career choices, a son flunks his college applications, a woman makes "mole-tail stew" (?) for her husband. Its just so...domestic!  Its like in Tolkien, where he'd bicker with his friends, have a falling-out with his girlfriend, fails an exam, etc...

 

Now, that's perfectly fine for a biopic, just like its perfectly fine in some of the 20th and 21st-century-set shows that some of these writers worked on like Breaking Bad or The Sopranos, but for a faux-Medieval epic? I mean, the movies had situations that were personal but except Sam having his eye on Rosie, they were never this mundane and prosaic. The irony is actually that those domestic scenes are better than those parts of The Rings of Power that do go for the rarefied "end of the world" feeling like all the Galadriel stuff and certainly the Tirharad malarky, again a little bit like the World War I framing device was the clumsiest part of Tolkien.

[TolkienSS 407]

34 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

You know, it just struck me: people like to make those equivalances but this show feels neither like The Hobbit nor The Lord of the Rings. You know what it feels like? Tolkien. Not as in his writings, as in the biopic from 2019. By which I mean to say is that it feels like 20-century-set drama smeared with a Medieval paintjob: so many of the situations are just so...mundane: a young girl is bullied, a person reprimands his friend for missing his wedding, a father is upset with his children's career choices, a son flunks his college applications, a woman makes "mole-tail stew" (?) for her husband. Its just so...domestic!  Its like in Tolkien, where he'd bicker with his friends, have a falling-out with his girlfriend, fails an exam, etc...

 

Now, that's perfectly fine for a biopic, just like its perfectly fine in some of the 20th and 21st-century-set shows that some of these writers worked on like Breaking Bad or The Sopranos, but for a faux-Medieval epic? I mean, the movies had situations that were personal but except Sam having his eye on Rosie, they were never this mundane and domestic. The irony is actually that those domestic scenes are better than those parts of The Rings of Power that do go for the rarefied "end of the world" feeling like all the Galadriel stuff and certainly the Tirharad malarky, again a little bit like the World War I framing device was the clumsiest part of Tolkien.

 

The thing is, there is nothing in both Silmarillion and LotR appendices that describe the human interactions that are necessary for screen adaption.

If one wants to make an adaption of anything in them, it would always have to be made up in the dialogues etc.

The problem is that the RoP writers did not only not try to mold the screenplay so that it fits the writings, they actively tried to bend it.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

I feel like this show is doing a very poor job making it clear why the wider populace of Numenor seem to have a historical prejudice against Elves

 

Am I just missing something obvious? The most recent episode had Lady Pharazon try and give an explanation but she skirted around what made the Numenoreans close their ports to the Elves in the first place

 

Its annoying because it’s a piece of history that’s very important to understanding the Numenoreans as people but right now I’m just confused about their culture

 

 

[jpmatlack 29]

3 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

 

The thing is, there is nothing in both Silmarillion and LotR appendices that describe the human interactions that are necessary for screen adaption.

If one wants to make an adaption of anything in them, it would always have to be made up in the dialogues etc.

The problem is that the RoP writers did not only not try to mold the screenplay so that it fits the writings, they actively tried to bend it.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but how do you know they are bending anything?  We don't actually *know* anything about anything or hardly anyone yet...

[mstrox 6,651]

1 hour ago, DarthDementous said:

I feel like this show is doing a very poor job making it clear why the wider populace of Numenor seem to have a historical prejudice against Elves

 

Am I just missing something obvious? The most recent episode had Lady Pharazon try and give an explanation but she skirted around what made the Numenoreans close their ports to the Elves in the first place

 

Its annoying because it’s a piece of history that’s very important to understanding the Numenoreans as people but right now I’m just confused about their culture

 

 

I’d agree with this.  Maybe it’s made clear in the appendices, which I last read some two decades ago now.  I’m assuming the history will become more clear as time goes on, given the newfound alliance.

 

Really enjoying the show, by the way!

[Faleel 5,348]

3 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

I feel like this show is doing a very poor job making it clear why the wider populace of Numenor seem to have a historical prejudice against Elves

 

Am I just missing something obvious? The most recent episode had Lady Pharazon try and give an explanation but she skirted around what made the Numenoreans close their ports to the Elves in the first place

 

Its annoying because it’s a piece of history that’s very important to understanding the Numenoreans as people but right now I’m just confused about their culture

 

 

The Pride of Man.

[TolkienSS 407]

2 hours ago, jpmatlack said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but how do you know they are bending anything?  We don't actually *know* anything about anything or hardly anyone yet...

 

Galadriel's violent character? Harfoots? Unexplained Numenor vs Elves issue just because the usual "men are evil" shtick?

 

Four hours of this show exist. Four hours. With episode 6, it will have run roughly as long as the entire first season of Big Bang Theory.

You really think we don't know "anything about anything"?

 

If you really think all these episodes don't give you much about anything or anyone, don't you think that's a piss poor verdict on how it's written?

[Richard Penna 3,689]

6 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

I feel like this show is doing a very poor job making it clear why the wider populace of Numenor seem to have a historical prejudice against Elves

 

Am I just missing something obvious? The most recent episode had Lady Pharazon try and give an explanation but she skirted around what made the Numenoreans close their ports to the Elves in the first place

 

Its annoying because it’s a piece of history that’s very important to understanding the Numenoreans as people but right now I’m just confused about their culture

 

Apart from that scene at the start with the Numenor guy doing his 'taking our jobs' rallying speech, there's nothing I can remember either.

 

It's almost like the writers just wanted a quick conflict for story reasons so that they had something to 'overcome' for the next bit of the season.

 

As much as the visuals and general production values are excellent, the writing is absolutely pants.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Yes, it could have been explained better, but the hostility of the Men of Numenor vs the Valar and (as extension) the Elves, and the underground opposition to this by the Faithful (including Elendil) is very much central to Tolkien's own writings about the Downfall.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

3 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Yes, it could have been explained better, but the hostility of the Men of Numenor vs the Valar and (as extension) the Elves, and the underground opposition to this by the Faithful (including Elendil) is very much central to Tolkien's own writings about the Downfall.

 

Oh yes, that’s why I’m annoyed because the inciting event there is quite clear but as far as I know it hasn’t happened yet in the show’s chronology

[jpmatlack 29]

11 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

 

Galadriel's violent character? Harfoots? Unexplained Numenor vs Elves issue just because the usual "men are evil" shtick?

 

Four hours of this show exist. Four hours. With episode 6, it will have run roughly as long as the entire first season of Big Bang Theory.

You really think we don't know "anything about anything"?

 

If you really think all these episodes don't give you much about anything or anyone, don't you think that's a piss poor verdict on how it's written?

I don’t like TV, so I’m the first to admit I can’t compare this to other shows being produced these days. I have zero interest in Game of Dragon Thrones or any other nonsense like that. I’ve never seen an episode of Big Band Theory and don’t intend to. I just don’t watch them. But I have loved Tolkien for almost 30 years when my parents gave me the books for my 10th birthday. 
 

Unless you’re a particularly fast reader, after four hours buried in Fellowship of the Ring, you’re still in the Old Forest chasing characters, villains, and plots that have nothing to do with anything and never provide any payoff. Long amounts of time with rich details but very little action is to be expected in Middle Earth. It’s what Middle Earth IS! 
 

So far all the complaints I’ve heard against this show (except casting and the Warg design) are complaints that go right back to the source material and Tolkien’s style of story telling. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. But it’s beautifully Tolkien-esque so far.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I am surprisingly enjoying it a lot

[Holko 9,526]

1 hour ago, jpmatlack said:

Unless you’re a particularly fast reader, after four hours buried in Fellowship of the Ring, you’re still in the Old Forest chasing characters, villains, and plots that have nothing to do with anything and never provide any payoff. Long amounts of time with rich details but very little action is to be expected in Middle Earth. It’s what Middle Earth IS! 
 

So far all the complaints I’ve heard against this show (except casting and the Warg design) are complaints that go right back to the source material and Tolkien’s style of story telling. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. But it’s beautifully Tolkien-esque so far.

Wow.

 

In the book you already have focus, a clear world with loveable characters and stakes, a clear POV you follow as it discovers that world so it expands for the both if you, others soon joining them before separating, to give them a clear setup, and the main motivating story has already begun and just takes some time to truly kick into gear.

 

What you have in RoP is a mess of many characters, most with zero relation to each other other than having seen MM and maybe possibly thinking they'll share a villain in the future sometime maybe not sure probably, they almost all share the same basic generic setup (different thinking person wanting more somewhat oppressed by their environment), nothing has really happened yet in most of their storylines beside basic setup, just generic filler and manufactured conflicts to make the audience think something did, and they're all generic cliche domestic small characters and plots as opposed to Tolkien's larger than life mythology, and either insufferably annoying or painfully bland and boring.

[Chen G. 3,949]

This is all going to sound a little formalized, but the setup of The Fellowship of the Ring (which is 3 hours 20 minutes) is done in 44 minutes. Even An Unexpected Journey (2 hours 52 minutes), which is at times leaden, takes...well, 44 minutes. The setup for The Lord of the Rings trilogy as a whole takes one hour and 49 minutes. I'm not entirely sure where the setup for The Hobbit is all done - and its a moot point anyway - but probably when Sauron orders Azog to prepare his armies, which is 187 minutes into a 500-minute trilogy. The setup for the entire six-part series (which is 19.2 hours in length) takes 5 hours and 20 minutes. 

 

We're four hours and seven minutes into what's reportedly an eight-hour season and we've yet to conclude the setup. That's over half (and counting), where the movies - in any configuration you want - did it in 20-30% of the overall runtime, which is what you want: who wants to wait half the length of the piece for any kind of conflict to coalesce?

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

We're four hours and seven minutes into what's reportedly an eight-hour season and we've yet to conclude the setup. That's over half (and counting), where the movies - in any configuration you want - did it in 20-30% of the overall runtime, which is what you want: who wants to wait half the length of the piece for any kind of conflict to coalesce?

 

Well this is part of the little game the apologists for this mess play. The evolution goes something like this...

 

You can't judge the show based on production photos!

You can't judge the show based on the trailers!

You can't judge the show based on the first two episodes!

You can't judge the show until the season's over!

(season ends)

It's only the second season, it's too early to judge the show!

It's a five-season arc! You can't judge the show until the final episode!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

You jest, but I spend times in corners of the net where these apologetics are used all the time. I was already objecting to it back in the marketing days: "You can't judge the show until its out" - well, not thoroughly, of course, but if you're at all media savvy and have been around the block a couple of times, you can probably tell if it will or won't be for you. I mean, that's how we decide what to watch and what not to watch, being that we clearly don't watch EVERYTHING: We look at trailers, synopses and listen to word-of-mouth and decide whether we might like something or not.

 

Now that half the season is out, there's more and more of this last apologetic of "well, we need the context of the whole season" and in this case I think the apologetic stems from people being, well, franky, naive and taking the showrunners' words much too at face value when they equated this season to "an eight-hour movie." Its one of those things where I'm sure the showrunners would like us to think of the season as one long movie, both for artistic reasons but also for this very reason: that it basically makes the season critically-impervious until after the final episode has aired which I have nothing to say to except "oh, how convenient!" I think at one point they even made the equivalence of the show is one, 50-hour movie which is even more preposterous.

 

It reminds me of George Lucas standing at the AFI awards and saying how he considers all six Star Wars films to be a single movie. This is the same kind of thing: even just within the first three episodes we've switched directors, an art director and a set of writers; and we know the episodes were made sequentially, and that there had been a long break in the schedule before embarking on the third episode. This "one movie" equivalency is empty.

[jpmatlack 29]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

This is all going to sound a little formalized, but the setup of The Fellowship of the Ring (which is 3 hours 20 minutes) is done in 44 minutes. Even An Unexpected Journey (2 hours 52 minutes), which is at times leaden, takes...well, 44 minutes. The setup for The Lord of the Rings trilogy as a whole takes one hour and 49 minutes. I'm not entirely sure where the setup for The Hobbit is all done - and its a moot point anyway - but probably when Sauron orders Azog to prepare his armies, which is 187 minutes into a 500-minute trilogy. The setup for the entire six-part series (which is 19.2 hours in length) takes 5 hours and 20 minutes. 

 

We're four hours and seven minutes into what's reportedly an eight-hour season and we've yet to conclude the setup. That's over half (and counting), where the movies - in any configuration you want - did it in 20-30% of the overall runtime, which is what you want: who wants to wait half the length of the piece for any kind of conflict to coalesce?

If this is a success, I would love Lord of the Rings to be re-edited to go at a MUCH slower pace. Bring on Season 1 Episode 1: Hobbits Dancing at Bilbo’s Party and Season 2 Episode 2: Frodo Explores Rivendell… Jackson filmed SO MUCH that just couldn’t work in a blockbuster film but would be perfect for an Internet tv show in this vein. 

If you don’t like hanging around and looking at the scenes, you probably just don’t like Middle Earth…

 

I’m NOT an apologist for the show. I may hate it depending on where it goes. And I’m already anticipating the much tighter film edits that will show up on fanedit.org. But I absolutely am loving the room to breathe and get to know the mundane lives of characters before they get sucked into the Last Alliance and all the epicness that will come later. 
 

Mark my words : NOTHING of any note will occur throughout the entire season 1. We MAY get introduced to a tease of Sauron’s Beautiful form, but the folks who think the rings are going to be made in season 1 when they haven’t even STARTED on the forge tower… you’ve just put yourself in a position that allows nothing but disappointment.
 

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

You jest, but I spend times in corners of the net where these apologetics are used all the time. I was already objecting to it back in the marketing days: "You can't judge the show until its out" - well, not thoroughly, of course, but if you're at all media savvy and have been around the block a couple of times, you can probably tell if it will or won't be for you. I mean, that's how we decide what to watch and watch not to watch, being that we clearly don't watch EVERYTHING: We look at trailers, synopses and listen to word-of-mouth and decide whether we might like somethign ro not.

 

Ah. Well that’s the main difficulty. I intentionally did NOT spend time on those areas of the Internet. I watched the trailers and went into the show blind and still don’t care much what other folks are saying. The only reason I’m on THIS board is because I particularly love the music and love reading detailed analyses of both the films and the new show…

 

If you knew you didn’t want to watch the show based on the synopsis and marketing and trailers, why are you watching the show ?

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

This is all going to sound a little formalized, but the setup of The Fellowship of the Ring (which is 3 hours 20 minutes) is done in 44 minutes. Even An Unexpected Journey (2 hours 52 minutes), which is at times leaden, takes...well, 44 minutes. The setup for The Lord of the Rings trilogy as a whole takes one hour and 49 minutes. I'm not entirely sure where the setup for The Hobbit is all done - and its a moot point anyway - but probably when Sauron orders Azog to prepare his armies, which is 187 minutes into a 500-minute trilogy. The setup for the entire six-part series (which is 19.2 hours in length) takes 5 hours and 20 minutes. 

 

We're four hours and seven minutes into what's reportedly an eight-hour season and we've yet to conclude the setup. That's over half (and counting), where the movies - in any configuration you want - did it in 20-30% of the overall runtime, which is what you want: who wants to wait half the length of the piece for any kind of conflict to coalesce?

oh I think the fellowship’s set up happens even sooner. 
 

the set up for fellowship is simple in its elegance. We see our protagonist Frodo get a ring. We see Gandalf discover it is Sauron’s ring. And Sauron sends his forces to capture the ring.

 

 That’s the setup - the Hero has something the villain wants. Everything happens based on that premise.

 

Arguably the set up of the hobbit is piss poor. It really drags the shit out. That setup is when Bilbo leaves on an adventure. The party the night before is stretched interminably.

 

Rings of power is the slowest of the three because it is setting up multiple storylines and the first 2 episodes were entirely setup. Maybe even 2.5. So far in the series, it seems like we have only gotten an hour of plot in 4 hours.

 

 But that’s television for you. It is undoubtedly a slower paced medium than Cinema.

[Chen G. 3,949]

42 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Arguably the set up of the hobbit is piss poor. It really drags the shit out. That setup is when Bilbo leaves on an adventure. The party the night before is stretched interminably.

 

The setup is not all that long. It doesn't have the same kind of Hitchcockian supsense underneath it like it does in The Fellowship of the Ring, but I think it works: at any rats, 44 minutes is not all that long a setup for a movie, certainly when its pushing three hours.

 

The issue there is actually that, after Bilbo does undertake the quest, we expect the adventure to start in earnest...and it doesn't. It moves at fits and stops. It only really starts getting to the point when the Wargs show up...and then slows down again for the White Council, but after that it does pick up speed, which still puts it a good two hours (!) ahead of The Rings of Power in terms of the setup.

 

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

The setup is not all that long. It doesn't have the same kind of Hitchcockian supsense underneath it like it does in The Fellowship of the Ring, but I think it works: at any rats, 44 minutes is not all that long a setup for a movie, certainly when its pushing three hours.

 

The issue there is actually that, after Bilbo does undertake the quest, we expect the adventure to start in earnest...and it doesn't. It moves at fits and stops. It only really starts getting to the point when the Wargs show up...and then slows down again for the White Council, but after that it does pick up speed, which still puts it a good two hours (!) ahead of The Rings of Power in terms of the setup.

 

i am a screenwriter too. Jackson is lucky he was an Oscar winning film maker with 3-4 mega hits under his belt. If you a submit a script to Hollywood where the first 44 pages are set up they will write their ass with it and throw it in your face.

 

 Setup can be at most 10 minutes in most major scripts today.

 

 All that’s to say, Jackson got really complacent with the hobbit films. 
 

if they had been 2 films or my preference - 1 film, the set up wouldn’t have been 44 minutes at all. It should have been at best 15 mins.

[Chen G. 3,949]

The two-film structure wouldn't have alleviated the issue.

 

And really, 45 minutes of setup is not at all so long, especially in fantastical or period-set films. The original Star Wars, which is 117 minutes long, has 42 minutes of setup. Braveheart, which is 170 minutes long, takes a solid hour. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (161 minutes) takes 74 minutes. Gladiator (164 minutes) takes 75 minutes. Willow is 121 minutes and takes 42 minutes. The Two Towers is a sequel and yet takes 55 minutes out of its 215 minute runtime. The Godfather (173 minutes) takes 75 minutes. This is not an exhaustive list.

 

As long as the audience gets the sense that, when the setup is done, it'll become really interesting and intense, and so long as the setup period itself is suffused with enough intrigue and suspense, you'll be surprised how much audiences will be willing to sit through, especially in the comfort of their own home.

 

The Rings of Power doesn't have that, and is taking longer than even the most extreme of the examples I've provided.

[jpmatlack 29]

43 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

As long as the audience gets the sense that, when the setup is done, it'll become really interesting and intense, and so long as the setup period itself is suffused with enough intrigue and suspense, you'll be surprised how much audiences will be willing to sit through, especially in the comfort of their own home.

 

The Rings of Power doesn't have that, and is taking longer than even the most extreme of the examples I've provided.

I mean, you’re willing to sit through these episodes without any hope that the series will get better… clearly a LOT of folks (if the sheer number of YouTube videos declaring this a failure are any indication) are. This isn’t a traditional film/series that has to earn its budget back through repeat ticket sales. Unless it’s so awful that you cancel your Prime membership, RoP doesn’t really have to play by traditional rules. I say bring it on! I hate traditional TV. 

 

I just find it so weird that people are so anxious to announce this as a failure. Maybe it will be. Maybe it’ll change the way folks consume television the way LotR changed film. Why is it SO important that the show fail? Why not just ignore it if it’s really that awful, the way you do every other crap television series?

[TolkienSS 407]

10 minutes ago, jpmatlack said:

I mean, you’re willing to sit through these episodes without any hope that the series will get better… clearly a LOT of folks (if the sheer number of YouTube videos declaring this a failure are any indication) are. This isn’t a traditional film/series that has to earn its budget back through repeat ticket sales. Unless it’s so awful that you cancel your Prime membership, RoP doesn’t really have to play by traditional rules. I say bring it on! I hate traditional TV. 

 

I just find it so weird that people are so anxious to announce this as a failure. Maybe it will be. Maybe it’ll change the way folks consume television the way LotR changed film.

 

Several points: LotR didn't change film, except initiate a wave of fantasy films with varying successes.

 

Then, only because a series struggles to make it about anything, doesn't mean it's changing anything. The show about nothing has come and gone 20 years ago.

 

Thirdly, not having to earn money back is the worst position to be in if you want a show to Stretch itself to please people.

 

And fourthly, the fact that people are "willing to sit through it" just for the hope of it getting better is, again, a poor verdict of this show.

[jpmatlack 29]

28 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

 

Several points: LotR didn't change film, except initiate a wave of fantasy films with varying successes.

 

Then, only because a series struggles to make it about anything, doesn't mean it's changing anything. The show about nothing has come and gone 20 years ago.

 

Thirdly, not having to earn money back is the worst position to be in if you want a show to Stretch itself to please people.

 

And fourthly, the fact that people are "willing to sit through it" just for the hope of it getting better is, again, a poor verdict of this show.

Again, I’m not a film person so I could be wrong, but I remember most of my friends being entirely incredulous when they found out Fellowship of the Rings was *THREE HOURS* and it was only the first of three films… and then they ADDED 30 minutes to make what has become the definitive version! No one but no one would have seen the interest in a FOUR HOUR (RotKEE) fantasy film prior to 2001. 

 

I don’t care enough to do the actual research, but I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one who has observed film times increased noticeably after the success of LotR. 
 

But hey, I’m not an apologist. I have no idea if I’ll get to the end and like it. I’m just enjoying it for now and getting up early Friday morning to watch - something I’ve never done before for a tv show. If you don’t like it, by all means don’t like it. Unless you cancel your Amazon subscription, you’re literally the only person who suffers if you don’t want to like it. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

18 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Oh yes, that’s why I’m annoyed because the inciting event there is quite clear but as far as I know it hasn’t happened yet in the show’s chronology

 

The final escalation by Ar-Pharazon hasn't happened yet, but the conflict itself was a generations-long thing:

 

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/The_Faithful

Quote

The Faithful emerged as a result of the division that occurred in Númenórean society by the middle of the Second Age during the reign of Tar-Ancalimon. The Númenóreans had become split between the Elendili and the King's Men, a faction centered around the King that rejected friendship with the Elves and allegiance to the Valar. With Númenor reaching the apex of its might, the King's Men eventually espoused open defiance of the Valar. This split would eventually precipitate the Fall of Númenor.

 

In a way, this is one of the show's central problems - telling stories that span hundreds of years from the POVs of a few main characters (most of whom don't live that long) without absurdly squeezing the events of a millennium into a few weeks, and at the same time avoiding criticism that things are happening too slow/too fast/not at all.

 

I can't say I have much use for a discussion about how much setup is permissible for a long form series when technically Tolkien's Second Age is nothing more than setup for LOTR (unlike the First Age (and what came before), which long predates LOTR and informed much of its central lore, the Second Age and Numenor, as far as I know, are mostly a direct byproduct of LOTR and was squeezed in when it became clear that the new book required more backstory that couldn't be satisfied by what Tolkien already had). But it's setup that delights me, because I know how it leads to LOTR & Co, so if the series manages to capture that (which I think is still possible), I think it achieves its primary goal. That probably by necessity makes it not for everyone, and much of the struggle is how far it can accept catering to a specific target audience. I think most of PJ's LOTR's failings (and there are a few) stem from trying to please too large an audience at the expense of story/world integrity (or perhaps rather not trusting that it would have reached the same audience without certain sacrifices) - and LOTR surely was far easier to adapt as a big epic story for everyone who likes big epic stories than anything in this new series could even hope to be.

[Pellaeon 593]

The story of the Rings was certainly LotR setup.

 

Númenor came about independently as part of a time-travel novel that Tolkien was writing in conjunction with C.S. Lewis’s space-travel novel (eventually a trilogy). This was in 1936-37, right around the time The Hobbit was being published (obviously after it was written and before there was a clamor for a direct sequel).

[Faleel 5,348]

Which is why Numinor ended up IN the space trilogy.

[TolkienSS 407]

3 hours ago, jpmatlack said:

Again, I’m not a film person so I could be wrong, but I remember most of my friends being entirely incredulous when they found out Fellowship of the Rings was *THREE HOURS* and it was only the first of three films… and then they ADDED 30 minutes to make what has become the definitive version! No one but no one would have seen the interest in a FOUR HOUR (RotKEE) fantasy film prior to 2001. 

 

I don’t care enough to do the actual research, but I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one who has observed film times increased noticeably after the success of LotR. 
 

But hey, I’m not an apologist. I have no idea if I’ll get to the end and like it. I’m just enjoying it for now and getting up early Friday morning to watch - something I’ve never done before for a tv show. If you don’t like it, by all means don’t like it. Unless you cancel your Amazon subscription, you’re literally the only person who suffers if you don’t want to like it. 

 

No, you're definitely not a film person.

LotR didn't invent the 3 hours epic. Titanic, Dances With Wolves, JFK, Schindlers List, The Green Mile, those are just big films from the 90s that are longer than both FotR and TTT, and barely shorter than RotK. Not to mention history epics from the 60s or Gone With The Wind, which clocks in at 4 hours.

 

You pretend like Lord of the Rings wasn't huge name value before FotR ever was released. You pretend like it was out of this world unlikely that anyone would be interested in it. There are so freaking many Tolkien fans on this planet, of course there was interest.

What LotR certainly did was start the Special Edition DVD or Collectors Edition.

 

As for the last sentence, dude, no offense, but you sound like a toxic Jeff Bezos' PR bloke. Like the show is SO good and SO important that the only way you could POSSIBLY not like it is if you're forcing yourself to, and you suffer endless pain from not watching it.

You grossly overestimate the effect of this lukewarm show on Amazon subscriptions.

 

[jpmatlack 29]

44 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

As for the last sentence, dude, no offense, but you sound like a toxic Jeff Bezos' PR bloke. Like the show is SO good and SO important that the only way you could POSSIBLY not like it is if you're forcing yourself to, and you suffer endless pain from not watching it.

You grossly overestimate the effect of this lukewarm show on Amazon subscriptions.

 

Haha, I definitely won’t be getting any jobs in PR of any kind anytime soon. I haven’t grossly overestimated anything - and a semi-careful reading of my posts will prove that out as I have been very clear that I have no idea how this series will go and freely admitted that I may end up deeply disappointed.

If you don’t like the show, just don’t watch the show. If the show offends you, cancel your Prime membership. It’s not a big deal. You’re NOT suffering if you don’t like the show - you’re only suffering if you continue to watch a show you don’t like and then spend time talking about how awful it is. It’s masochistic. 
 

I hated the Hobbit films. I found an edit that cuts out all the crap I hate. I just watch those. I watched like 10 minutes of Game of Thrones and decided I wasn’t interested. I didn’t spend months taking about. If your Body is cringing when you watch the show, that’s your Body telling you it hates it. Listen to your Body… this isn’t medicine you have to take even if you hate it, for Pete’s sake; it’s entertainment. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

17 hours ago, jpmatlack said:

I mean, you’re willing to sit through these episodes without any hope that the series will get better… clearly a LOT of folks (if the sheer number of YouTube videos declaring this a failure are any indication) are. This isn’t a traditional film/series that has to earn its budget back through repeat ticket sales. Unless it’s so awful that you cancel your Prime membership, RoP doesn’t really have to play by traditional rules. I say bring it on! I hate traditional TV. 

I continue to watch it partially as an obligation to the Fellowship of Fans crowd. Left to my own devices, I may well not have bothered. Mind you, I don't dislike this show with any intensity: I'm actually quite fond of the third episode - Harfoots and menstruating Galadriel notwithstanding - but the rest thus far has just been not bad but rather dull.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

I'll probably finish the season, and that may be it.  The visuals just aren't enough of a reason to keep coming back.  

 

There were a couple promising things early on...I thought that the portrayal of Elrond (and that early story line) was by far the best part of the show, which surprised me. And the initial stuff with the Dwarves was interesting (though all they did was try to copy PJ's Dwarves, with the comedy turned up to 11). But even that's wearing thin at this point, and that storyline is starting to feel like a Durin family sitcom, with Elrond playing the meddlesome neighbor. 

 

It's just boring and lazy. It's a lot more "quest" oriented than I was expecting, and the lead characters are all basically cut from the same mold...the "outsider" who is smarter than everyone else, while everyone surrounding him/her in their culture is an ostrich with their head stuck in the sand. It's just lazy. Every lead character has the same story. And how many Mystery Boxes™ do we have? Who is Meteor Man? Who is Halbrand? Who is Adar? Which one is Sauron? Is one of them Gandalf?  What is Celebrimor up to? What's the secret of the sword hilt? Tune in next week to (maybe, but probably not) find out!  The overuse of the Mystery Box™ is just another example of lazy, unimaginative writing that plagues so much TV drama. How many Mystery Boxes™ are there in Lord of the Rings? Zero. And the whole "we're not trying to copy the movies even though everything we put on screen says otherwise" just feels insulting, and invites comparisons that don't make the show look good.

 

None of it makes any sense, it's all contrived. Every motivation by the characters only exist to get them to the next scene. Stuff is written because they think it sounds "Tolkien" but it's really just gibberish. "No one walks alone" the Harfoots chant as they leave the old, injured and vulnerable behind to die alone. And what does "The Sea is always right" mean? And the reason we're given the Numenoreans hate the Elves is b/c the Elves are going to steal their jobs? WTF? (so much for the promise of no real-world political allusions) And speaking of analogies, I have to say, I still haven't figured out what the analogy about rocks and ships and stars is supposed to mean. Again, it's just gibberish, and now I think I'm talking myself out of even finishing the season. 

[Holko 9,526]

6 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

(though all they did was try to copy PJ's Dwarves, with the comedy turned up to 11)

 

6 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Stuff is written because they think it sounds "Tolkien" but it's really just gibberish. "No one walks alone" the Harfoots say as they leave the old, injured and vulnerable to die alone.

Another great bit like that was the speech about how they sing to the rock, how it all has a history and value... right after spending hours mindlessly smashing random rocks to bits for no reason.

[Chen G. 3,949]

8 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

And the whole "we're not trying to copy the movies even though everything we put on screen says otherwise" just feels insulting, and invites comparisons that don't make the show look good.

 

That surprised me! I can find the showrunners saying half-a-dozen times that "we didn't want to make a prequel" and then you watch the show and you have a surprising amount of repeated lines ("Salted pork and enough malt beer to fill the Anduin"), lots of familiar iconography but also what's clearly shaping up to be another siege of Helm's Deep, another Bilbo (with Gandalf and a Sam-like sidekick, to boot), another Aragorn (with the rogue aspect of Strider turned up to 11 but still). You could even make the argument that Adar somewhat fullfills the function of Gollum.

 

So weird to do a discount Helm's Deep not two years before we're getting the real deal again!

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

On 22/9/2022 at 11:48 AM, Holko said:

hours mindlessly smashing random rocks to bits for no reason.

 

It's an analogy for watching this show. 

 

[Pellaeon 593]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I can find the showrunners saying half-a-dozen times that "we didn't want to make a prequel"

 

Neil Gaiman was more honest. “I remember buying The Silmarillion as a schoolboy when it was published and it very much not being the prequel I was hoping for. [Rings of Power] is the sort of thing I wanted to experience back then.” That really puts things in perspective for me. This is where the normies’ heads are at. It’s not about adapting Tolkien, and it’s not particularly about NOT adapting Tolkien, but it IS about creating a LotR prequel like one might expect, that follows the normal rules of prequels. That’s my take.

[Chen G. 3,949]

To be clear, I don't mind prequels "doing the prequel thing": repeating lines, nodding to visuals from elsewhere, setting-up plotlines in the entries "that are to come". Its what prequels do.

 

But here the attempts of The Rings of Power to relate itself to movies which were made in different decades, by different filmmakers, in a different medium and with a completely different style, often rings very hollow.

 

Curiously enough, I mind it less with dialogue and more with visuals and situations.

[JNHFan2000 2,961]

I enjoyed Episode 5.

It's still moving a bit slow. But I was interested in all the things happening this week. That hasn't been the case for the last 4 episodes.

 

Galadriel finally softened a bit, which was nice. I'm glad that they're off to Middle-Earth. How cool it was to be in Numenor, everything took a bit too long for my taste.

The burning off the boats was the thing I didn't like. Mostly because I have zero interest in that one character. I don't even no his name.

 

The Elrond & Durin stuff was the best. They are a great pair. The actor playing Durin gives the best performance of all the actors. He has the most range and does great 'eye acting'.

 

The Harfoots were the backseat to their own storyline, with The Stranger getting the spotlight.

I am very interested to see what The Mystics are. Why are they following The Stranger. Are they good or evil. I like their look and McCreary's theme for them is very cool.

 

Again, the best part for me was the music. The full statements of the Nampat chant was awesome. The big brass statement of The Stranger's theme was also very cool. The whole final cue of the episode was great scoring on McCreary's part. Halbrand's theme on horns is especially a favorite of mine.

I actually really like the song "The Wandering Day", both the in-episode and end credits versions.

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

It’s very nice to see the plot finally starting to move.

 

However, now Mithril caught the light of the last Silmaril and the Elves will all perish within a few months if they don’t get to basically stand in front of a bunch of Mithril and bask in its light?! WTF!?

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

1 hour ago, JNHFan2000 said:

I am very interested to see what The Mystics are. Why are they following The Stranger. Are they good or evil.

 

We'll add it to the list!

 

22 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

And how many Mystery Boxes™ do we have? Who is Meteor Man? Who is Halbrand? Who is Adar? Which one is Sauron? Is one of them Gandalf?  What is Celebrimor up to? What's the secret of the sword hilt? Tune in next week to (maybe, but probably not) find out!

 

[Holko 9,526]

9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

However, now Mithril caught the light of the last Silmaril and the Elves will all perish within a few months if they don’t get to basically stand in front of a bunch of Mithril and bask in its light?! WTF!?

I stopped after ep3.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...I'm sorry, what?

[JNHFan2000 2,961]

I saw some people somewhere only thinking that Halbrand is Sauron.

 

But indeed, there are so many questions. I do like it, but after 5 episodes not having any answers is a bit frustrating. And I am afraid that this season is so slow, because they are using as a setup season. Which is not a good artistic choice.

If you want people to keep watching your show, you have to show them from the start why they should watch. Not do that in another season or film. You have to do that right away, otherwise somethings bound to go wrong.

[Chen G. 3,949]

18 minutes ago, Holko said:

I stopped after ep3.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...I'm sorry, what?

Appearantly once upon a time, an Elf fought with a Balrog ontop of the Misty Mountains (you know, like Gandalf did in that movie once? You do remember that, right? RIGHT!?) over a tree that had the light of the last Silmaril in it and then lightning made the light of the tree (mingled with the goodness of the Elf warrior and the evil of the Balrog) to trickle into the Mountain, creating Mithril; and now for some reason the Elves are dying off and will all perish by spring if they don’t get to bask in the light of Mithril, like Finns in a sauna.

 

I swear in the name of all that is holy that I’m not making this up!!

[Holko 9,526]

...

 

 

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

I'm sorry, what?

[Chen G. 3,949]

I'll try and transcribe the scenes in question because its just too good of a lark to pass up on:

 

Quote

GIL GALAD (to Elrond): Are you familiar with the Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir?

[...] ELROND: It speaks of a battle, high among the peaks of the Misty Mountains. Not over honour or duty but, over a tree within which some claim was hidden the last of the lost Silmarils. [...moment of quiet in which Gil-galad seems to affirm this, before an animated segment a-la Deathly Hallows: Part One begins] On one side fought an Elven warrior, with a heart as pure as Manwe, who poured all his light into the tree to protect it. On the other, a Balrog of Morgoth who channeled all his hatred into the tree to destroy it. Amidst their duel uneding, lightning ensnared the tree, forging of their conflict a power...

GIL GALAD: A power...as pure and light as good; as strong and unwielding as evil. They say it seeped down the roots into the mountain depths where for centuries now, it has waited.

 

[...shows Elrond a black blight that afflicts the big tree in the Council-of-Elrond looking place] GIL GALAD: The blight upon this tree is but an outer manifestation of an inner reality, that the light of the Eldar, our light, is fading.

[...later] CELEBRIMBOR: We believe if we can secure vast quantities of it, quickly. Enough to saturate every last Elf in the light of the Valar once more, than yes, yes. It very well could be [the Elves' salvation].

 

[...later still, talking to Durin] ELROND: Without it, my kind must either abandon these shores by spring or perish.

DURIN: Perish? Perish how?

 

ELROND: Our immortal souls will dwindle into nothing, slowly diminishing until we are but shadows, swept away by the tides of time, forever.

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

27 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Appearantly once upon a time, an Elf fought with a Balrog ontop of the Misty Mountains (you know, like Gandalf did in that movie once? You do remember that, right? RIGHT!?) over a tree that had the light of the last Silmaril in it and then lightning made the light of the tree (mingled with the goodness of the Elf warrior and the evil of the Balrog) to trickle into the Mountain, creating Mithril; and now for some reason the Elves are dying off and will all perish by spring if they don’t get to bask in the light of Mithril, like Finns in a sauna.

 

[Holko 9,526]

12 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

[...later] CELEBRIMBOR: We believe if we can secure vast quantities of it, quickly. Enough to saturate every last Elf in the light of the Valar once more, than yes, yes. It very well could be [the Elves' salvation].

 

[...later still, talking to Durin] ELROND: Without it, my kind must either abandon these shores by spring or perish.

DURIN: Perish? Perish how?

 

ELROND: Our immortal souls will dwindle into nothing, slowly diminishing until we are but shadows, swept away by the tides of time, forever.

Ahhh but the Rings of Power will also help revitalise them, remember Rivendell? remember Lothlórien? remember how they said had to sail away after the One Ring was destroyed? it's all connected, man!

 

1 hour ago, Holko said:

I stopped after ep3.

Well, this is not gonna change.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I'll make it short and simple: Appearantly all the Elves are now all diabetic and Mithril is insulin.

[Barnald 365]

Wow. I'd love to have been in the writers room when they came up with that one...

[Chen G. 3,949]

I think someone watched Supergirl the movie and said "ah, the Omegahedron! That's great!! Lets do that!"

[Barnald 365]

Even if you look at it as a made-up story to manipulate Durin into giving them access to Mithril, he'd have to be the most stupid person in Middle-earth to fall for it (naturally he will).