Indiana Jones and the Lost Concert Arrangement

[Jay 37,369]

I believe that John Williams recorded a concert arrangement of the various Nazi themes from the Dial of Destiny score, titled "Nazis", but then didn't include it on the OST album.

 

 

 

For a bit of background, there's a German publishing rights organization known as GEMA (Gesellschaft für musikalische Aufführungs- und mechanische Vervielfältigungsrechte), who makes their list of entries public, via an online search:

 

https://online.gema.de/werke/search.faces?lang=en

 

There is lots and lots of music listed in there, from all genres, from all types of media.  Many films have their Cue Sheets uploaded into it, to officially secure the publishing rights for every film score composition that is in the film - often OST albums will also be uploaded separately, covering all music released in both places.

 

The nice thing when that happens is that it gives us all the original cue names (or at least, the names that they put on the cue sheet, which doesn't always match when was put on top of sheet music), though it hardly ever gives us the reel/part numbers.  Also the search results can be sorted by chronological appearance by copying the "Publisher Work Code" attached to each cue name and then sorting by that field.  Note that this only sorts the cues by their first appearance in the film - even if that appearance was tracked music.  @CGCJ already sorted them by that field when he posted the Dial of Destiny cue names found in GEMA here.

 

This chronological sort gives us a few pieces of information right off the bat - namely that Helena's first scene is entirely scored by tracked music ("Helena's Tutorial" from later in the film), same with Voller's first New York scene (more on that later), a bit of "Centipedes" is tracked in near "Eels", etc.

But one thing I also noticed is that it provides an additional note for all cues that appear in the end credits assembly. For example, if you click open  a cue that is not in the end credits looks like this:

 

 

While a cue that is in the end credits looks like this:

 

 

 

So overall, there are 6 cues listed as being in the end credits assembly:

1. Nazis
2. To The Airport
3. Raider's March - JR Edit
4. Helena's Theme Rev 2
5. Helena's Theme Rev
6. End Credits Part 3

 

Now, the final 4 cues on that list are obvious.  In the film, the main credits are scored by "Raiders March -JR Edit" (which incidentally Williams conducted in New York before the film even came out), then the scrolling credits are scored by the piano intro of "Helena's Theme" (Rev 2), then the rest of "Helena's Theme" (Rev), then "End Credits Part 3" (the suite we hear in OST track 1 from 1:08-end).... right?

 

Well, it turns out yes, but actually no.

 

Many fans have noticed that the film features an "extension" in the "End Credits Part 3" part that isn't in the OST track.  Specifically, what you hear in OST track 1 from 2:30-2:37 is replaced in the final film by about 49 seconds of... something else:

 

 

Well what is this mystery music?  The logical guess was that it was music he simply snipped out of the OST version for an improved listening experience.  However, after a while it occurred to me that no, this is actually an alternate opening of the "Through The Airport" sequence!  This piece starts with about 8 seconds of racing strings that leads into Helena's theme, which gives way to a sort of wondrous moment, before snares lead us to Voller's theme.  The opening of the "Through The Airport" film version, by comparison, has 8 seconds of different racing strings that give way to a different performance of Helena's theme, which leads to timpani instead of snares, and then non-thematic passage instead of Voller's theme.  But the vibe is very similar between both pieces, so it seems pretty clear to me that's what this music is.

 

We know that the film version opening of the scene is actually the specific cue "To The Airport (Patch 2)" - we know this because a piece of it was tracked into the "Teddy Is Kidnapped" sequence, so it appears there chronologically in the GEMA list.  So when I finally remembered the whole GEMA end credits thing and I saw "To The Airport" listed the way it is, I realized that some piece of this version is still in the scene, and then another piece is inserted into the end credits to extend the run time, explaining why it isn't in the OST version.

 

 

OK, so that explains "To The Airport", but what is "Nazis"?

 

Well, due to its GEMA sorting order, we know it appears in the film after the tracked usage of "Voller's Interview" that scores the New York scene where the waiter brings him food.  Careful listening led to me realize that almost all of that scene is "Voller's Interview", so therefore only the very end could be "Nazis":

 

 

OK, well that bit doesn't appear in the end credits, right?  Well after listening to the end credits for a while, I had the realization that the opening 34 seconds or so of what we thought was "End Credits Part 3" is a different recording than the rest.  And then it dawned on me that THAT must be the START of "Nazis", and the bit tracked into the waiter scene is the end!

 

And luckily both parts of this lost concert arrangement are on the OST album too.  The start in OST track 1"Prologue" from 1:07-1:41

 

 

And the end in OST track 3 "Voller Returns" from 2:40-end.

 

 

 

The interesting thing is that the way "End Credit Part 3" starts after that opening taken from "Nazis" doesn't sound like a good opening on its own, so its likely that what happened is he wrote it knowing that the opening bars of "Nazis" would be re-used, instead of having to nail a performance of them all over again when everybody already liked what was already recorded.  And that also probably explains why this concert arrangement isn't on the OST album, it probably has a lot in common with the first half of "End Credits Part 3" that also covers all the Nazi themes.

 

Phew!

 

 

TL;DR: I think Williams wrote a concert arrangement called "Nazis", but we only have heard about a minute of it, the beginning part being in OST track 1 "Prologue", and the ending being in OST track 3 "Voller Returns"

[Brando 1,864]

Fascinating! Also, the 'JR Edit'-what does that mean exactly?

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

Quote

Indiana Jones and the Lost Concert Arrangement

 

Is this the title of Indy VI?

[Jay 37,369]

4 hours ago, Brando said:

Fascinating! Also, the 'JR Edit'-what does that mean exactly?

 

Well its still the Raiders March composition from 1981, its just not the entire composition, it's shorter.  So probably someone on the team was given the task of taking that old sheet music and dropping the right bars and changing the right tempos to fit the exact run time needed for the main on end credits.  And that person probably had the initials JR.

 

My best guess was Jamie Richardson but I really don't know.

[JTN 2,030]

He does that? I thought he was JW’s agent.

 

Perhaps it means John Ramiro Edit.

[Brando 1,864]

11 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Probably Jamie Richardson was tasked with putting together a short version to record?

Ohhhh I see. Is this someone who works with JW? I see a Jamie Richardson on IMDb which lists Prisoner of Azkaban which he's listed as a writer on the soundtrack, but not DoD.

[Jay 37,369]

He wrote the lyrics to Winter's Spell.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Fascinating! Maybe it'll end up appearing on the concert suite?

[SyncMan 314]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

 

Probably Jamie Richardson was tasked with putting together a short version to record?

 

1 hour ago, JTW said:

He does that? I thought he was JW’s agent.

 

He is.  He's with the Gorfaine/Schwarts Agency.  He is also the co-founder of Film Concert Live, the concert-production company that did many of the LTP concerts of scored-Williams films like Jurassic Park, CE3K, Raiders, Jaws, ET, Home Alone, and Superman.

[Tom 4,664]

13 hours ago, Muad'Dib said:

Fascinating! Maybe it'll end up appearing on the concert suite?

Williams and those Hal Leonard Suites of late! My guess is that we will eventually get Helena's theme at least.  Maybe the Oscar nomination will prompt him to go for a whole suite. Then again, The Fabelmans was nominated. 

 

I sometimes wonder if Williams does (or does not do) certain things just to piss me off.  But, then I think, that is crazy; how could a rational person think that.  After all, I'm a nice guy, so Williams must have other reasons.   

[Jay 37,369]

4 hours ago, JTW said:

Perhaps it means John Ramiro Edit.

 

But Ramiro Belgardt is John's music editor, and this music wasn't formed by taking a long recording and then editing it down.  It's clearly written to be exactly what we hear, and the recording in the film and OST album is unedited.  I'm sure someone who attended that New York concert would say its the same. 

 

I guess they could have called it "JR Arrangement", but since there's technically no proper "arranging" done, just shortening of the old composition, "JR Edit" makes more sense.  There could be someone else on the team with the initial JR, but I didn't see one

 

It also could just be "Junior Edit", because it's shorter.  Who knows!

[crumbs 14,317]

Could just be some junior intern at JKMS who was given the assignment. I assume Williams himself noted the bars he wanted removed though.

 

On the original topic, I verified Jay's theory through spectrograms. The opening of the Nazi material in the end credits (OST Prologue) is indeed from a separate recording. I'd love to know just how different this early Nazis suite was compared to the final (presumably revised) suite we heard in the eventual end credits.

 

I'd also love to know what else was potentially recorded in these sessions. We seemingly have 3 versions of Helena's Theme, an almost unused Nazis suite, and maybe other 'wild' recordings (Helena in Action?). Were these early sketches JW wrote for William Ross, before deciding to write more of the score himself?

 

An interesting technical detail is that Patricia did a smoother job matching these two separate recordings on the OST than the film, where it's somewhat noticeable that an alternate recording was inserted (they don't match as seamlessly in the film mix).

[Jay 37,369]

Nice catch with the OST mastering smoothing out the edit point!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The raiders march is more than a shorter edit of the same material.. its an arrangement without strings. Just winds and percussion (and harp). That never appeared on previous films i think

[crumbs 14,317]

16 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

The raiders march is more than a shorter edit of the same material.. its an arrangement without strings. Just winds and percussion (and harp). That never appeared on previous films i think

 

The strings are very much there, just low in the mix.

 

Williams conducted this arrangement at the premiere and you can see the strings playing.

 

 

Also, that shortened opening is really silly. Has Williams not conducted this piece hundreds of times? The audience always goes nuts after the first few bars but shortening it means the cheering overlaps with the first bars of the main theme. This was never an issue with the longer opening.

 

Hopefully we've heard the last of this edit.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Could that video be not live recording and they used the cd track? Its incredible so many violins are silent…

[crumbs 14,317]

It's an oddly mixed cue on the OST, yeah. But I like the performance a lot more than the KOCS version, so...

[Bellosh 3,419]

18 hours ago, Jay said:

 

 

Many fans have noticed that the film features an "extension" in the "End Credits Part 3" part that isn't in the OST track.  Specifically, what you hear in OST track 1 from 2:30-2:37 is replaced in the final film by about 49 seconds of... something else:

 

 

 

so wait.... how was this bit found?  was it a leak and someone made this edit?  this was never actually heard in theaters right?

[Jay 37,369]

What?  The blu ray's end credits is the same as what was in theaters.  The "Through The Airport" bit shoved into "End Credits Part 3" runs from 2:30:06-2:30:55

[Bellosh 3,419]

wait so that bit in that youtube video is actually in the end credits?

 

oh okay! sorry that's my confusion, as I've never listened to the actual film end credits because i assumed it was just the same as the OST!

 

My bad!  i must have missed any comments on something new in the end credits in other threads (if there were comments)

 

this is great!!

[Jay 37,369]

 

1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

wait so that bit in that youtube video is actually in the end credits?

 

yes....

 

1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

i must have missed any comments on something new in the end credits in other threads (if there were comments)

 

It was mentioned while the film was still in theaters that there was a bit in the end credits that wasn't in the OST track, and we'd been speculating whether it was part of the end credits that Williams snipped out of the OST track, or something intended for someone else that the music editors shoved in there to extend the runtime, ever since.  I only recently figured it out it tracked music from "To The Airport", here.

[Bellosh 3,419]

it sounds so much like disney star wars that bit, even though you identified it.  maybe thats why it was cut on OST

[Jay 37,369]

But that's the point, it ISN'T end credits material that was cut from the OST.  It's an unused opening of "To The Airport" that was inserted in the middle of "End Credit Part 3" in the film, to extend the runtime.

[Bellosh 3,419]

ugh my bad again i totally forgot the OST end credits end with the raiders march.

 

i had an edit with the end of the prologue in my end credits too.

 

jay i'm just gonna see myself out of this thread. i'm a mess.

 

[Jay 37,369]

"End Credit Part 3" is in OST track 1, "Prologue", from 1:07-end.

 

We're not talking about the "Raiders March - JR Edit" and "Helena's Theme" cues that appear before "End Credit Part 3".

[Bellosh 3,419]

6 minutes ago, Jay said:

"End Credit Part 3" is in OST track 1, "Prologue", from 1:07-end.

 

right. but i totally forgot that there was new music in the film version that was left off the prologue part that was in the end credits. i do remember that conversation back in july or whatever.  so this whole time my end credits edit seemed like the film version.

 

so between that and never listening to the blu ray rip of the credits, i thought i was waking up to new music on a monday. which i kinda am cause it's new to me lol.

[Jay 37,369]

Right, but it wasn't "left off", it's tracked music that wasn't intended to be there.  The OST album is fine.  it's the film that has tomfoolery.

[Bellosh 3,419]

It's very interesting

 

Sorry to have derailed all of this I was just so confused (my own fault)

[Jay 37,369]

Yeah, whoever picked it, picked a cool piece of music to stuff in there.  And as an added bonus, it's completely unreleased music we never would have heard otherwise!

[Marian Schedenig 8,200]

19 hours ago, Brando said:

Fascinating! Also, the 'JR Edit'-what does that mean exactly?

 

[Jay 37,369]

Didn't The Last Jedi's end credits feature the Holdo's Resolve stuff that wasn't on the OST album?

 

The Lost World featured the alt end credits opening that wasn't on the OST album too

[Brando 1,864]

22 minutes ago, Jay said:

Didn't The Last Jedi's end credits feature the Holdo's Resolve stuff that wasn't on the OST album?

Yes

 

22 minutes ago, Jay said:

The Lost World featured the alt end credits opening that wasn't on the OST album too

Yes, but that was intended to be there. Was Holdo's Resolve intended by JW for the Credits or did they add it in for the runtime?

[Jay 37,369]

It looks like it was re-recorded as part of an end credits piece

 

On 26/05/2020 at 3:01 PM, Jay said:

20 Finale (9:03)

1. 0:00-0:24 = 9M86 Old Friends (continued)
2. 0:24-0:52 = 9M87 Finale, Pt. III 
3. 0:52-1:29 = End Credit
4. 1:30-2:44 = End Credit Part 2
5. 2:44-3:54 = End Credit Part 3
6. 3:54-5:10 = Rose’s Turn
7. 5:10-7:17 = End Credit Part 3 {continued} 
8. 7:17-end = End Credit Part 4

[Bellosh 3,419]

So now that my dumbass has got on track....doesn't that bit sound extremely like something that would be in the Disney Star Wars.  I can't get it out of my head when I hear it.

[Faleel 5,355]

16 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

So now that my dumbass has got on track....doesn't that bit sound extremely like something that would be in the Disney Star Wars.  I can't get it out of my head when I hear it.

Yeah, it does sound like something John Williams would write in the 2020's/2010's doesn't it..

 

Oh wait...

[Bellosh 3,419]

I mean it sounds more SW esque than usual but if you're trying to 'get one on me' I already called myself dumbass so I really don't care.  I'm just happy I didn't get the typical 'presto aktchually' unless that is one?

[Faleel 5,355]

Ackchually....

[Bellosh 3,419]

There it is!!!!!!