How likely is it that John Williams watched Pirates of the Caribbean?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

With the grandkids perhaps?

I hear...similarities...here and there. In both what we've heard from Tintin and War Horse. And while none of it seems intentional...the culmination of these moments points to the possibility that the maestro watched the movies (possibly with his family while on retirement) and some music tunneled from the ears and burrowed into his brain stem.

Granted this is not to disparage the great Maestro. Tintin wipes the floor with anything in PotC. But it's a curious possibility.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I imagine it's more a case of temp-track of Zimmer into Tintin and War Horse, and Spielberg asking something similar to that... I suppose it could have been Williams first exposure to this particular kind of music, and I'd like to hear what he has to say about it.

"Those synths are AWESOME dude! I should totally use those more!"

[Joe Brausam 214]

I highly doubt that a temp track for the film was Williams' first exposure to this kind of music! And I think it's highly likely he's seen at least one of the films with family, at least.

[King Mark 3,631]

it was probably used in the temp track.Williams said he doesn't go to the movies or watch a lot of them

[publicist 4,643]

My grandfather is around the same age - watching loud blockbusters ranks not that high on his list of priorities.

[Incanus 5,714]

Ol' Johnny must have been in the theater with sheet music bundled around him, making copious notes of Zimmer's music for further use. "If I ever score another pirate film this is what I'll use. All this bass. How on earth have I missed all this?"

Honestly I have no idea does Tintin have musical resemblance with POTC music at any point. I listened to those scores back when I saw the films and have not had any great urge to revisit that stuff. And before you go all antagonistic on me I have to say that of course I am a bloody JW fanboy and apologist who refuses to acknowledge the power of Zimmer's music.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

How well you know me BloodBoal. You can read me like an unlocked messageboard thread.

[Josh500 1,615]

With the grandkids perhaps?

I hear...similarities...here and there. In both what we've heard from Tintin and War Horse. And while none of it seems intentional...the culmination of these moments points to the possibility that the maestro watched the movies (possibly with his family while on retirement) and some music tunneled from the ears and burrowed into his brain stem.

Granted this is not to disparage the great Maestro. Tintin wipes the floor with anything in PotC. But it's a curious possibility.

Maybe he's seen the movie, maybe not. Who the hell can tell?

But he knows the music, that's for sure.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

My grandfather is around the same age - watching loud blockbusters ranks not that high on his list of priorities.

mine watched IndyIV and Avatar...

But they did not like the POTC films on TV. Shite i think was the word used...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

John Williams has said in multiple interviews that he does not watch movies a lot. I don't really see him reserving tickets for the latest Bruckheimer flick.

[Josh500 1,615]

Dear God.

Maybe he watched it on DVD when he learned Tintin deals in part with pirates and seafaring swashbucklers? Could be.

But again, who can tell? And is it even so important whether he saw it with his grandkids or not?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Temp track people, temp track!

[Josh500 1,615]

Temp track people, temp track!

Or that, yes.

I think we can say pretty definitely JW knows the music of PotC.

Whether he saw it in the theater and with how many of his grandkids, is not really an issue, l'd say.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's funny that no one minds when Williams is writing in a Korngold-esque style, which is no more his own, and no more authentic regarding the depiction of pirates then Zimmer's.

[Incanus 5,714]

But hey War Horse has English folk song styled melodies. Obvious rip-off from Jack Sparrow's theme man. Obvious!

[nightscape94 965]

I don't see Spielberg asking John Williams to sit there and listen to a temp track and potentially copy a sound. It's been highly documented that Williams watches the movie on its own terms, sight unseen, in order to get ideas or first impressions.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

He either has, or he hasn't. It's as simple as that. I hope for his sanity, that it's the latter.

[Quintus 5,399]

I was really disappointed that it was the pirate music which played during Tintin's end credits, instead of The Adventure Continues...

Maybe someone at Paramount thought it'd improve the ost cd sales.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah true, what I meant is the music heard as the Unicorn cuts through the ocean, the music related to this discussion.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

It's funny that no one minds when Williams is writing in a Korngold-esque style, which is no more his own, and no more authentic regarding the depiction of pirates then Zimmer's.

Because it's more interesting to witness him modernise his style while kicking-ass than regressing to Korngold.

One is novel, the other well trodden territory.

[lostinspace 8]

You're on the money about the pirates of the caribbean motif in War Horse. What was Williams thinking?!!!!!! -> Track: No mans Land. @ 2:37 repeats about 5 times. All that comes into my mind is some kind of pirate sword fight!

It occurs to me; Has Hans Zimmer ever used any JW motifs or themes?

[MissPadmé 17]

There is NO WAY, Dinner with Amelia from "The Terminal" wasn't temptracked! (As good as it gets - H. Zimmer)

Of course it happens on Williams/Spielberg, I think the part we know from "Bringing Joey Home" was tracked with Jack Sparrow music, or there is an original piece, which Williams and Zimmer copied independently.

[lostinspace 8]

It's funny you mention Terminal. I hear a lot of this in both Tintin and oddly enough War Horse aswell. Now I know what people mean when they say film music is a pastiche artf form.

Zimmer's music evokes a completely different (more modern) feeling, and has to be a good thing that he has his own voice (original or not).

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

It even permeates Tintin.

The Adventure Continues has a strangely eery similarity with "Wheel of Something or Another" or whatever the hell it was from Dead Man's Chest....right down to that string diddy at 2:30 or so...there's a moment where you brain goes "wait this is about to burst off into Pirates music"

It doesn't. But there's definitely influence there. My avatar is scarier than ever now.

[publicist 4,643]

Of course it happens on Williams/Spielberg, I think the part we know from "Bringing Joey Home" was tracked with Jack Sparrow music, or there is an original piece, which Williams and Zimmer copied independently.

Or it is just a little musical device quite common in the heritage of british music. Or Spielberg has really lost his mind and temptracks random parts of his movies with PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Spielberg is a Zimmer fan. Spielberg made Zimmer director of Dreamworks music. Sooooo....it's completely likely he tracks random parts of his movies with Pirates of the Caribbean.

And Williams isn't Goldsmith or Herrmann. He wouldn't watch it and say "What the hell is this shit?" He'd passively go with it. Because he's 80. He's doing these movies because Spielberg is like PWETTY PWEASE?!

[TownerFan 4,983]

Spielberg temps rough cuts of his movies since the beginning of his career. I guess Williams learned to accept it since The Sugarland Express, so it's likely it's not a problem for him. I guess he uses it as a sort of mere guidance for feelings and maybe colors, but never bends down shamelessly to it.

It's more than likely that Spielberg uses a piece from Zimmer here and there in his temp tracks, but frankly I don't think he orders to JW "Write something like that!". He trusts his old friend enough to let him free to write whatever it's best for the movie.

[Jay 37,364]

I agree with Maurizio, that's how I picture their working relationship to be as well

[publicist 4,643]

Reality check: what absolutely will not happen is that Spielberg tracks a vaguely comedic incidental scene with one of the central themes from POTC.

The example cited is just a bumbling figure in the low basses. It's a very common thing which has nothing to do with Zimmer - of all people.

[TownerFan 4,983]

And I should add that I for one was not able to hear a Zimmer influence in that track of Tintin. I think this is clearly a case where people here wants to see more than it really is. Sure, there are unison strings and horns playing a minor-mode motif, but Zimmer hardly invented it. It's likely Spielberg temped the sequence with some Pirates of the Caribbean music and that eventually Williams took just a slight nod from it, but he then went on his own route and wrote a piece that's purely in his own style.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, that's exactly what I have been saying all along.

[Alejandro 26]

Spielberg is a Zimmer fan. Spielberg made Zimmer director of Dreamworks music. Sooooo....it's completely likely he tracks random parts of his movies with Pirates of the Caribbean.

And Williams isn't Goldsmith or Herrmann. He wouldn't watch it and say "What the hell is this shit?" He'd passively go with it. Because he's 80. He's doing these movies because Spielberg is like PWETTY PWEASE?!

It was Geffen.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But Spielberg has been a Zimmer enthusiast since Crimson Tide.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Well, in Crimson Tide the sound was still fresh...

(Funnily, there's a lift from Crimson Tide in Zimmer's better pirate score (Muppets))

[STORM 1]

terrable thought when williams retires speilberg will probably use zimmer! thats not good at all.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i think there is hope still, he is aware or giacchino Giacchino, and even praises his work...

[Salacius 7]

Well, let's see,

If by chance you went by John's house and you saw James Horner's car parked outside, heard bottles of wine opening indicating a drunken night,

the sound of Pirates of The Caribbean blearing out and James and John pissing them selves laughing at the ridiculously idiotic score, then yes,

he did watch it. Other wise, NO. Williams is too busy 99% of his time and wouldn’t spent his 1% listening and watching a film that would unjared him with synth based crappy music. My 2 cents.

terrable thought when williams retires speilberg will probably use zimmer! thats not good at all.

That isn’t going to happen

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

That old Spielberg quote about Crimson Tide seems to have haunted a lot of people's paranoia. It was a long time ago, he's probably changed his mind since then.

[indy4 155]

He also made Zimmer the musical head of Dreamworks, so I think he still admires him. I'd imagine he'd pick Giacchino, though.

[Incanus 5,714]

Williams by his own admission doesn't watch a lot of films outside the ones he scores. He most recently said this in the AFI's series The Art of Collaboration when he and Spielberg had picked out some of their favourite scenes that contained in their opinion great music.

[mrbellamy 6,287]

terrable thought when williams retires speilberg will probably use zimmer! thats not good at all.

No, I'm thinking Spielberg will either go straight to Giacchino as his go-to guy, or he'll bounce from composer to composer each film. That could include hiring Zimmer if it's appropriate for the film, but I don't really see them becoming regular collaborators.

I wonder, though, when the time comes that Spielberg and Williams must part ways for whatever reason, if it would lead Spielberg to actually start making more films a la SPR and Munich. Featuring minimal or even no musical score. He seemed to be heading down that road, anyway (at least until Indy 4) but it would be interesting to see him further explore those avenues of storytelling that do not require music.

[nightscape94 965]

I don't really see them becoming regular collaborators.

Spielberg has an incredible habit of doing that, however, with almost everyone else he works with. So I wouldn't put it past him to latch onto another composer as his "go-to" guy, unless the experience is just terrible.

[lostinspace 8]

I believe first and foremost JW (and he differs considerably from JG and other composers who think some directors don't know shit about music) realises he needs something that

1. Works even at the expense of some originality. Remember this is film music not some olympic theme or something thats going down in the books of history - at the same time films are about entertainment and 90% of the public don't wan't understand or need complicated music -eg. Transformers (a booming horn chord theme).

Tintin is great music crafted to a particularly high level but the reality is to the general public it is not catchy nor memorable in the way Zimmer scored POTC. In a way Zimmer/Badelt created a new sound and concept for POTC and they should be rewarded.

Williams is great but holistically there is much influence of Korngold, Steiner etc and all the composers round the Golden Age in his work. So it's up to him to put as much of his unique voice and style in as possible. He doesn't do a bad job at all- just not as memorable as Zimmer's Pirates...

[King Mark 3,631]

Tintin is not memorable in the wayStar Wars,Raiders and Harry Potter was

Distinction instead of comparing it to PotC

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Tintin is not memorable in the wayStar Wars,Raiders and Harry Potter was

It sure is comparing what the composing for the film now days is. Or maybe without that.

[Datameister 2,042]

FWIW, I only heard the Pirates influences in War Horse - specifically, while Joey is being brought home for the first time, and in "No Man's Land." Obviously, both passages are excellent. It's a little hard to say exactly how the similarities came about, but I think these stylistic choices work well in the film and sound great on album as well, having been filtered through Williams' own musical styles and skills.

I heard nothing reminiscent of Pirates in Tintin.

[Jay 37,364]

People think the track "Sir Francis And The Unicorn" is Pirates-ish.