ocelot
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Posts posted by ocelot
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SO I thought it was a great concert. Thanks for all the videos and pics etc. I did notice something though. Was he snubbed by most of the firsts in the Berlin Phil? Those are not (on the whole) the woodwind section of the Berlin. I know them. Piccolo was and I think one of the other oboists took over Cor Anglais. But 90% of the woodwinds were brought in from other orchestras. Same with some of the brass, and 1st horn was not there. Many of the string players were not the same either so what gives? Did they feel that he was not serious enough a composer for them to attend. I was really looking forward to hearing the actual Berlin orchestra in full compliment being conducted by him. Who were those oboists? Clarinets?.....
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On 24/10/2021 at 5:02 PM, karelm said:
You shouldn't worry about it too much. There is no doubt that Horner was a very skilled and talented composer. There is also the reality of film scoring as a business. Sometimes these collide. It's not really that big a deal. Think of it like any one of his great scores would probably sound different, perhaps even better, if he had no time constraints. Because composers sometimes have awful deadlines, corners are cut. It's not ideal, it's the reality of working in a business. To think otherwise is to over-romanticize the business of film scoring.
NO Composer can write a full score for a movie like Troy in a week. It's absolutely impossible. It's a movie that needs a 3 month turnaround for a fully orchestrated classical score, so it's really not his fault he went to everyone working with him and dolled out cues, i just found it funny that he talked about himself in the 3rd person and said "you know what horner sounds like" lol
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On 16/10/2021 at 3:16 PM, Skelly said:I noticed in your credits, wedged between all the John Williams films, you worked for James Horner as well. I just wondered how his work process might differ from John's.
His scores were blank. He wanted me to fill them in. So I would get --
[laughing] They were what?
Is that news? That...? I would get the notes, and a copy of the tape, and I would look at it, and then just sit down and write it.
Did he differentiate with you in terms of theme and, like, texture? Or at least give you like an idea of what he wants?
No, because he would do it individually. Like, I wasn't the only one. There was an emergency case to do one picture that he wanted to do it in a week. So there was a lot of writing to do in one week, so there were four of us. I don't think what he was doing was trying to plot thematic material, but in my case, he didn't plot anything. He just told me, You got the notes you got the picture, you start here, and you quit here. Okay. And so he went -- oh! He told me one thing. He said, 'This right here, in one spot, it's building up to something and I want to start with brass; with, like, trumpets and French horns alternating, but do it individually so that it sounds like it's all overlapping and it sounds like it's coming from different parts of the battlefield. So they do that. We can do it by the way we mic it.' And there was one picture in specific that he said, 'If you play it like [humming] and then just have that keep repeating but in different keys. So I said, "I'm not sure what you mean, because overlapping like that -- having it all separate keys, you don't change the harmony. Leave it the same and just let me dot and dash with the trumpets and the french horns alternating." We had eight French horns, so it was great; I could use them in couples with the trumpets. I think there were four or five, I'm not sure, I can't remember -- oh no, they were eight! I'm sorry. Eight trumpets and eight French horns. I couldn't figure out which picture that was on... that came together and it worked fine, but he wanted -- insisted on changing harmony.
Eddie, so at that point, it really becomes more ghost writing than orchestrating.
Yes.
From a business standpoint, how to you deal with that?
We were told that they were going to pay us double.
But you wouldn't ask for an additional 'Music by...' credit or something in a situation like that?
Well, we were hoping we might get that, but we were called orchestrators.
Yeah. You could call a cat a dog; it's still a cat.
I did that -- there were a couple of times with him I had to do that. And I did it because John released me to do it, because I turned it down. I said, you know, it's not fair. And I thought everybody that was involved should have been paid a fee and should have gotten some kind of credit other than, you know, a side credit. But he doesn't like sharing credit. Most people don't. Most composers don't. John never did -- John Mandel. And he is a brilliant writer by himself. But it's something that you have to, when you're dealing with a producer, you want to make sure that he doesn't get the idea that you're hiring somebody who's going to shuttle it off with other people.
Now you didn't do a mini version to get approved; they just handed it to you and you just did it?
He didn't know what he was going to get until he gave the downbeat. Takes a lot of guts.
(If anyone would like to hear the whole video, he can send me a Pm.)
That movie was Troy. They had around a week after Gabriel Yared was kicked off to score it and there wasn't any time for him to write all of it. It was mostly written by orchestrators including Conrad. He would just give them cues and he said to Conrad "write Horner".... And when Conrad said do you want to give me a theme or some cues to go by, he just allegedly replied, "No, you know what Horner sounds like" lol
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OK so here's the same clip slightly extended with the next bit.
I should probably explain this is Prince Igor having got to Baba Yaga's "lair" or "forest" starts thinking about his Warrior bride that has been kidnapped by Koschei. That's the big theme, then the next bit is him plucking up his resolve to face Baba Yaga in order to pass her tests for her to then agree to help him defeat Koschei. The section right after this is us hearing her call pulling him closer and closer to her and making him face her.
- The Illustrious Jerry, SteveMc, Luka and 1 other
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4 hours ago, Lord Zimmer said:
Wow, really good!
Later this year as in November/December? Any possibility of getting it sooner?
I'm not entirely sure, it was supposed to be debuted last month in Moscow but when I handed them the recording and they realized that it was for a 90 piece orchestra they scrapped the small opening and decided it needed to be a major concert, or so I am told. I have one conductor who wants to premiere it at one of the festivals in Russia, so it's up in the air (it was a commission for Russia) I already have 2 other orchestras in other countries who want to play it but no one is allowed to until the world premiere is done.
We Shall See....... I can add the little bit that comes right after that. Let me go check the video.
1 hour ago, Loert said:Very nice! 0:36 to 0:49 gave me goosebumps.
Thank you so much x
I love what I do but never been great at putting it out there tbh except for people I know well like my family, close friends and people here like @Stefancos (he gets to hear things in progress and the whole recordings once they are done) He often tells me how crap everything is lol
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OK so here goes....
Here's a one minute's slow section of an 11 minute piece I just wrote, orchestrated and recorded in Nov. The world premiere is supposed to happen later this year but I think it's OK if I post a minutes worth of it!? At least I think it is.....
Allan Wilson conducting the Qatar Philharmonic Orchestra for this recording at the Katara Opera House in Doha.
Edit: there is a slightly longer version a few posts down
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On 12/19/2019 at 12:40 PM, Stefancos said:
TFA was certainly not louder. Also, better sounding. More definition and clarity. This felt like being hit over the head with sound.
It doesnt because both the writing and mixing seem turned up to 11 all the time. There's not a lot of eb and flow sonically.
Oh I disagree. I think this is way better than TFA. I do prefer Rey's Theme to Rise of Skywalker theme, but the cues here? the underscore here is superb and the orchestrations are way more lush plus harmonically it has more impact. Where do you hear the bombasticness of this album. I hear a soft somber album with some big moments. There's a lot of lush string writing and then beautifully varied instrumentation and orchestration where in TFA I was missing the woodwinds all the time. I absolutely love the new Evil theme! I think the new Rise of Skywalker works better in lets say the Farewell cue which I love than it does in it's own track. It's weird because as it's own theme I don't quite buy it as Star Wars, more ET? But within the tracks they work better. HOWEVER, I have not seen the film but I imagine I am not going to like this film...... Not if what I am hearing is true about the direction JJ takes. I want to be taken for a ride that I didn't think was gonna happen and by all accounts it's more paint by numbers? Will have to see. Back to Rey's theme: I love how he takes it in different directions in this score. My favorite score I think is TLJ in the ST. But there are moments here that rival that easily. HOWEVER, as much as I do not like the prequels, I don't think any of the scores here rival the writing in those, IMO. Those were incredible scores, especially TPM. Lord I love that score with the exception of Jar Jar's theme. That was bombastic. The action cues in there were incredible.
As for nothing new. Stefan, this is the 9th score in a series. We already have so many themes. I would have been more than OK for him not to have written a new one. Just to score. Use the themes that are appropriate, and score.
1 hour ago, BTR1701 said:Really? Because this is one of the rare times JW has disappointed me.
The end credits (Finale) was JW's opportunity to wave a musical goodbye to the franchise, the fans, and basically 40+ years of his life's work, and instead of new, original, and poignant material, he basically copy/pasted the Imperial March from the Hal Leonard Signature Series, did some stuff with Rey's theme, then copy/pasted the end of RETURN OF THE JEDI.
It's like he finished scoring the film, then realized he still had almost 11 minutes of credits to fill and was, "I'm tired of this, I'll just take a bunch of stuff that'll fill the time from previous films and call it a day." I thought his end credits music in FORCE AWAKENS was far superior, especially the way it ended on a variation of the Rebel Fanfare, then a quiet denouement to a major chord in the basses with Luke's theme quietly ringing out in solo celeste. That was an emotional gut-punch the first time I heard it. This was just, "Oh, that again? I've heard that a dozen times in every Hollywood Bowl concert ever."
I don't like how it was mixed. The brass-- especially the trumpets-- is a lot tinnier and weaker than previous recordings.
I think, I could be wrong, but based on the last couple of tracks beforehand, that he had written so many different themes for it and then got told which ones to use. It sounds like that to me. But yeah, to me it's not the best track on there.
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2 hours ago, Edmilson said:
It didn't reminded me much of HP, more of a late 80s/early 90s JW fantasy score, such as Hook, HA 1 and 2, maybe JP.
BFG and ET is what I got at first but then I remembered his softers 80's writing for Star wars like Yoda and other tracks and then it gelled more.
It's also Christmasy and I think Williams' sign off and thank you to everyone.
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1 hour ago, Manakin Skywalker said:
Anyone else notice Palpatine's Seduction in the first track?
There isn't a cue called that, where is it in ROTS? And what time code in the first track? Thanks
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OK. In Farewell, is that a bad edit at around 1.22? It's really odd, the theme doesn't end and it sounds like it is missing something in there. What though?!
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5 hours ago, Larry O said:
Whether that's what he meant or not, it was taken to mean Duel of the Fates as well. It's not just a matter of "trailer music on my soundtrack where is it" but people honestly hoping that when Don said something about major themes all getting their opportunity to appear in this score, that it meant Duel of the Fates too.
There's a lot of unreleased and unused music. It could be that he had Duel of the Fates recorded for a section and then they decided not to use it in favor of something new.
3 hours ago, Bayesian said:I'm not typically pretentious, actually, but OMG there's something about Zimmer and his fanboy army that just makes me want to wring all their necks.
Please do!
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First half of Farewell just ripped my heart to pieces
Did it just give something away? I love the writing here so much. This is what I want from Star Wars!!!
- Jost1 and Joni Wiljami
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Someone hands Williams the proposed JP3 expanded CD
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1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:
I thought Davis' absence from Hollywood had something to do with him spending ages on Rio De Sangre and being out of the film world for too long.
Probably is
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Williams anytime he hears his music being reworked by another composer.... lol
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OK saying that Williams didn’t like something is one thing, no one is saying he’s stopping releases or making people not work lol. WTF 😂
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5 hours ago, Arpy said:
I don't know why Lucasfilm/Disney haven't hired you @ocelot clearly, you know exactly what to do and what to write.
LOL watch me Fail! I wouldn’t try to even go there because I don’t measure up to an ounce of what that man can do harmonically
I’m happy with what I accomplish myself though!
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2 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:
So don Davis did some alterations in Jurassic park III....and know what, he doesn't work at Hollywood anymore....
I suppose that trained musicians like ocelot or Williams hear music in a different level, so I understand the discrepancy in opinions.
BTW, Jurassic Park 3 isn't a "rumor" he hated what happened with the treatment of his theme in that. Although I would not imagine that is why Don Davis is not working in the industry. This was ages ago but there was, again I will say allegedly, a letter about why he was not called to help out when it came to his theme/s so it/they were not butchered.
It even goes beyond what chord you are using. Lets say I took one of Williams themes and used the right chords. But, my leading tone is then the wrong one when orchestrating and arranging, and I did not space the strings out classically enough but did a more simplified version of it, that could get me fired or talked to because even though for most people, it is the right chords, it is not musical orchestrally...... It goes way deeper..... There is a way of writing for an orchestra that is more organic (when it comes to tonal music) it goes out the window when you do atonal work, but tonal music has to work based on music theory and naturally going from chord to chord based on classical writing.
Again he is notorious in the industry as being someone who is very protective over what he writes. Some people call that a Diva, I do not. I see that as someone who wants to keep his work unadulterated and not put out in such a way that does not represent him.... Although part of me laughs at the notion that each time a trailer comes out with his music done in a pop and electronic way, he screams at the tv ROFL....
5 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said:If you want it done right in your own way, the only way to accomplish that is by doing it yourself.
Outsourcing is always going to result in something different.
Which is why he takes time and writes everything himself and orchestrates pretty much everything. As Conrad Pop said and I quote, and this was to me at lunch at "La Conversation" on Doheney, which unfortunately has shut down this year, so it is not alleged, "with Williams I am a glorified copyist. The orchestrations are all there on the page already."
9 hours ago, Arpy said:I don't think anyone believes Williams isn't allowed to have an opinion or that @Luke Skywalker's comment was anything other than good-intentioned, the problem is we're talking about rumours and hearsay and not only speaking on behalf of Williams, but on behalf of baseless chit-chat - which is far worse.
Yeah but again, no one is saying anything that is bad though. Not really, just that Williams does not like others touching his work, this was just the latest example of his displeasure.
17 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:In reality, JW probably doesn't remember his name.
Hi I'm Vaughan Williams, lol
- MikeH and Pieter Boelen
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7 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:I hope not to see confirmation of Williams as a drama queen/diva ever or it will be a great letdown for me. We all know famous people are like that and have big egos, but him being always so polite and nice, it would make him the biggest hypocrite, which is worse than outright being like that in the open...
Why would that be him being a Diva? It's his work. He wouldn't want it represented in a way he does not want it to be. Every artist has that right.
22 hours ago, crocodile said:If he disliked RO this much I wonder what he thinks of Jurassic World 2 released year and a half after that. But then, that's a different studio and these two scores make very few references to the old themes.
Karol
Different Studio and most stuff in there is pretty much quoted as is. Not put under different chords that are actual re-orchestrations. Plus he might not have the clout he does with his Star Wars films to say too much. Either way, it's not really different when his stuff comes in. He has no problems with his themes being there, just how they are treated and reimagined.
I have never heard of him having any issue with Powell in Solo though.
In the end the way Williams writes, there is a rhythm in his themes and they make sense for a reason. There is a cadence that flows. Do too much with it and it loses it's meaning, cut it off too soon and you lose the rhythm. It would be like trying to say a sentence but you leave out words. Also he orchestrates and uses harmonic language that is from the Classical world not Film world or Pop world, so he would probably have issue with that (my assumptions of why here, nothing I have heard, just trying to figure out what it might be). It's not that I do not like Gia, I actually love him in things like Ratatouille and The Incredibles. But when it comes to pure orchestral, I honestly do not think his harmonic language is there. Not in the way a classical composer would write. He hardly modulates. I do not know the RO score well because I don't like it and have not sat down to listen to it all that much after trying to initially but there is a track, it sounds like what Williams would write in one of those marches like the Resistance March. If you notice with Williams when he writes something like that, just like a natural composer he knows when to modulate. Either going to the 5 or just going up a step. He changes the orchestration. Different groups of instruments take the theme, whilst others then take on different counter parts or chords, some then stay silent etc etc. With Gia, he stays on the same tonality pretty much the whole track.... What? You've bored the orchestra playing your music and bored me to death..... Sorry, again, I love him in his other more jazz, big band, alternative scores and he MODULATES with those. Also in Jurassic World, there is a track where the kids are in that round bubble vehicle. He has woodwinds bubbling up with these scales that have nothing to do with the tonality of the piece. I'm like, did you just choose random notes or is this just going over my head, because I know what it "should" be there, but there is no rhyme or reason in what I am hearing. Again, music is subjective and someone else might love that randomness, but to me, it makes no sense classically or musically. These are just a couple of examples off my head.
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30 minutes ago, First TROS March Accolyte said:
I've heard that Williams doesn't want Giacchino anywhere near Daisy.
Gia posted on twitter a mysterious gift he received from Williams at some point leading to Episode IX.
A signed copy of:
That's it. It's all about Daisy! lol
57 minutes ago, Arpy said:Eh, happens all the time. Scheduling conflicts probably.
That's definitely not it, come on!
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15 minutes ago, Arpy said:
Who knows what happened to the Galaxy's Edge thing? Probably just got William Ross to handle the other stuff, but I seem to remember Giacchino's involvement didn't really seem like a given, just some quote from an article concerning the park, right?
Honestly cannot tell you, I just know he was "supposed" to be involved then after, no involvement.
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7 minutes ago, Arpy said:
Listen @ocelot maybe it's true, maybe Williams did say what he did. I just think it's sus is all given Williams renown and Giacchino's statements.
If Williams was so protective of his themes, how did Clone Wars and Rebels happen? Kiner took it all carte blanche!
And why did they not work together when they were supposed to after the fact when it came to Galaxy's Edge. Correct me if I am wrong but did that not come to a screeching halt right after the fact?
As for Kiner, it is TV with tons of episodes, years of quick tv writing schedules. His themes can to be used contractually and are, and Williams can't be on that schedule would be my response. Williams is anything but a fast writer. He is slow and deliberate. With a movie, he can step in to do those few cues if need be or have the person just do his own thing. His statement was not to have Gia not do Star Wars, but to keep him away from certain themes of his. But again, I am just telling you what I know from what I have heard.
If you notice with Powell, he wrote the theme and had stuff to do, as Powell said, he had done more and you can't tell where he is and isn't.
Edit: To your argument, I did once, ages ago also hear that Williams did step in on some stuff in Rogue One, but never heard any more of that, but I can't for the life of me hear Williams there....
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5 minutes ago, Stefancos said:
Wael, its fine. You're just breaking everyone's illusion of Williams as a benign, Santa like figure who feels no ownership regarding his music and is only ever positive and life-affieming.
It's funny because it's not about him being fake. He is polite, outwardly, even to the point of saying in many interviews "Oh, it's amazing what composers can do with computers nowadays, I can't do it" when he actually cannot stand the way music has been oversimplified and taken to it's lowest pop sounding chords with no form or function. He just says things in private Unfortunately this part with RO had leaked in LA and went round people and then it's now more in the open. It hasn't;t even grown, he didn't say anything more than he did. It's not case of Chinese whispers where the story grew and grew. The same thing that was said at first is said now. But yes, he is extremely precious about anything he writes. He hates anyone playing with it, because then again, the chords can be changed to something he does not like. I can understand that as a composer. I just recorded two pieces as you know and have heard. The first oboe player, who is a friend, facebook messaged me to ask if he can take one part I wrote for him in the third register, admittedly high, down the octave since the flutes have it up there, and even with that where it is tutti, I was like, No, the second oboe and the clarinets have it down there, I want you up there for a reason, practice it! lol
Any artist, be it in any medium can be precious when it comes to their own things. Another story from last year. I heard an orchestra in Poland was going to play my piece Earth, yet they had not hired it from me. I found out that they got people to transcribe it. 1. FUCK NO, and 2. FUCK NO, for two f=different reasons. One, it's my work, you play the exact notes I have written, so you hire the score and parts from me, and two, PAY ME! lol
Just now, Arpy said:No, because it's all hearsay, he said this, she said that. I know people who work in the industry too who can attest to the utter bullshit that gets spread.
I'm 100% with you there. Again, I am quoting what I know from sources I work with and trust. We can all believe what we choose to believe
And you might be right. Maybe it was all made up from the start
John Williams & Berliner Philharmoniker 14th/15th/16th Oct 2021
in JOHN WILLIAMS
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Never. He has been wanting to conduct the Berlin Phil for a long time and this orchestra consists of world class soloists. What you are saying is akin to going to a 3 michelin star restaurant and ordering from a fantastic burger joint while you are sitting there. Still great, but not what you went to the restaurant for. Their English Horn player, Dominik Wollenweber, is considered the number one player in the world as are both their first oboists, Jonathan Kelly and Albrecht Mayer, not to mention Christophe Hartman, and also their flautists, Mathieu Dufour and Emmanuel Pahud and the always fantastic Andreas Ottensamer on Clarinet or the other players in that section and the bassoons..... They have 2 principals in each section in case one cannot show up, both not showing up or even the seconds? What? This has never happened..... It is something else and I would love to know what exactly happened. Also when you say you don't care in Maxine isn't there when you go to the LSO, sure because again other members of the LSO are doing it, Here almost half the orchestra were not Berlin Phil members, they were from other orchestras. That's what I am getting at.....
Yes and no, True with Williams, but when I go to see the Berlin Phil playing Williams, I want those soloists, otherwise it is not the Berlin Phil playing......
But many of the players were not in the Berlin Phil, A B or C.... They were from other orchestras. For ALL the oboe section not to be there minus one maybe who took over the English Horn part instead? Same with other sections. What gives?