Anyone else think that Crusade's score is superior to Doom's?

[Quintus 5,399]

Don't get me wrong, Temple of Doom has a great score for all the obvious reasons, but personally I find The Last Crusade to be a lot more emotionally engaging, making it the more effective score. ToD has great themes, but there is nothing mystical or spiritual about the music, nothing which inspires a sense of awe and mystery of the ancient unknown. For me TLC has these elements in it's Grail theme and The Penitent Man Will Pass, making the score and film benefit greatly from musical moments like those.

The action cues are more interesting and entertaining in TLC too, sounding more like concert arrangements (my preferred style), indeed The Belly Of The Steel Beast is one of my favourite Williams action cues, but Escape for Venice is often just as fun. I can't sing the praises of Indy's Very First Adventure enough.

Of course I'm not criticising ToD's music, on the contrary it is splendid (the orchestra in particular is just plain better than that of Crusade's), but as something which stirs my love of all things mystical (isn't that what Indy is all about?) it just doesn't cut it compared to TLC.

Am I alone?

[Pieter Boelen 740]

Originally I though TLC was the best, but now I simply cannot choose between the various Indy scores anymore. My favourite depends on what I'm listening to at the moment. If I'm listening to ToD, I like that best and when I'm listening to TLC, I like that best and the same goes for when listening to RotLA. They're all so good that I am just very happy that we've got ALL THREE of them. Soon to be ALL FOUR!

[Hitch 57]

Yes

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Neither beat Raiders.

[Hitch 57]

Raiders is overrated in the same way John Williams' music is.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Overrated being an understatement.

[Quintus 5,399]

Neither beat Raiders.

Agreed but irrelevant!

[Hitch 57]

Overruled.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

They're all equally good!

[Miguel Andrade 1,265]

Yes, they are equally good, but if I had to pick only one, it would be The Last Crusade.

[Melange 446]

ToD has great themes, but there is nothing mystical or spiritual about the music

I would disagree. But, the moments in TOD which do fit that criteria, haven't made it onto the official soundtrack.

Overruled.

Is this Judge Judy or something?

[Hitch 57]

Sustained.

[Quintus 5,399]

Is this Judge Judy or something?

Punch and Judy more like.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

If i had to choose one, it would be Last crusade too.

[Quintus 5,399]

Out of the entire trilogy you mean?

I'd stick with Raiders, but TLC is still better than ToD.

[Melange 446]

Punch and Judy more like.

[Josh500 1,615]

I also prefer LC over ToD, for the reasons stated in the first post.

Williams not only writes good music, he also strives to write the best-fitting music. The LC score is more mystical, thought-provoking, and fun because the movie is just that. Still, ToD is one of the best works in the John Williams canon... in fact, the entire Indy series is.

[Hitch 57]

The Lambert Puppet Theatre is big in Ireland...it's just that the puppets got small.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Out of the entire trilogy you mean?

I'd stick with Raiders, but TLC is still better than ToD.

I think that the best SW score is well, Star Wars, and the best Indy is Raiders.

But my favorites of each saga are not them.

[MrScratch 294]

It is tough to compare because LC is represented much better than ToD on the OSTs. I like ToD more for several reasons. The performance on ToD is better in my opinion, neither orchestra compares to the LSO in Raiders, but ToD comes closer and is more energetic. Listen to "Desert Chase" and then "Belly of the Steal Beast". Going from "Desert Chase" to "Belly of the Steal Beast" is like going from Williams/Superman to Thorne/Superman II. "Steal Beast" aside, the action cues are lacking danger and suspense. "Motorcycle and Orchestra" "Indy's Very First Adventure" and "Escape From Venice" are fun chase cues, but not as exciting or pulse pounding as the action cues from the earlier movies. Even "Bug Tunnel and Death Trap" which has a strong comical element to the scene manages to build suspense. Williams doesn't cater to the comic elements in his music but plays them straight, its probably one of the best-scored sequences in the whole trilogy. ToD is lacking a prominent artifact theme but LC is lacking a love theme. Much of the music in LC is too comical like the movie itself in cues like "Keeping Up With The Joneses" and "No Ticket".

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

The thing with The Last Crusade is that it is a much more modern John Williams.

That score provided the basis for Williams' scores in the 90s to this day, it's evolution produced Nixon which further set the tone to what we hear from him today.

It loses a bit of its better than Temple of Doom factor because parts of it were essentially better done in future scores, and I think that's what makes it look a little iffy in some peoples eyes.

Though honestly, it's on par with Temple of Doom.

[Ollie 1,059]

Mr Scratch is correct.

Upon LC's release in 1989 one of the things I noticed was that the music sounded small, performance wise. And while it was a decision made by Williams and Spielberg, to cut back on IJ's theme, I felt that was a mistake.

There are some wonderful cues in LC but TOD is a better score. I love the dark theme for Pankot Palace and Short Round's theme is one of my favorites. The unreleased music for the battle in the mines is great and i love the use of the IJ theme as the cue comes to an end.

[Henry B 50]

The Last Crusade is anemic.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Mr Scratch is correct.

Upon LC's release in 1989 one of the things I noticed was that the music sounded small, performance wise. And while it was a decision made by Williams and Spielberg, to cut back on IJ's theme, I felt that was a mistake.

I never understood that part of the Last crusade liner notes.

I find the score is plagued with Indy fanfares and marches, as the other two were

[Henry B 50]

Yes, the Raiders March is everywhere. However, it's rarely big and brassy; most of the time it's syrupy and sweet.

[MrScratch 294]

I never understood that part of the Last crusade liner notes.

I find the score is plagued with Indy fanfares and marches, as the other two were

LC often uses one of the themes from the Raiders March as a buildup to another newer motif, never in LC does the Raiders March take center stage like it does in "Fast Streets of Shanghai" for instance. Even in "Steal Beast" it is brief and gives way to an original fanfare.

[Quintus 5,399]

Yes, the Raiders March is everywhere. However, it's rarely big and brassy; most of the time it's syrupy and sweet.

Yep, the filmic end of Indy's Very First Adventure features one of my favourite arrangements of the march. It tell's the audience welcome back. Welcome back to Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones. And I get goosebumps every time!

[oierem 152]

ToD has one of the best end credits suites ever!!!!

[Henry B 50]

Yes, the Raiders March is everywhere. However, it's rarely big and brassy; most of the time it's syrupy and sweet.

Yep, the filmic end of Indy's Very First Adventure features one of my favourite arrangements of the march. It tell's the audience welcome back. Welcome back to Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones. And I get goosebumps every time!

Yeah, that's the problem. The film and music are so affectionate at that point that you half expect Ford to look right into the camera and wink.

[King Mark 3,631]

If your comparing OST's then Last Crusade is a better listen

the complete scores is a different story. ToD is much better

[Quintus 5,399]

Yes, the Raiders March is everywhere. However, it's rarely big and brassy; most of the time it's syrupy and sweet.

Yep, the filmic end of Indy's Very First Adventure features one of my favourite arrangements of the march. It tell's the audience welcome back. Welcome back to Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones. And I get goosebumps every time!

Yeah, that's the problem. The film and music are so affectionate at that point that you half expect Ford to look right into the camera and wink.

Funny, I didn't sense that was about to happen at all. Funnily enough it didn't happen either. Its all in your head.

If your comparing OST's then Last Crusade is a better listen

the complete scores is a different story. ToD is much better

I'm comparing scores and I prefer TLC.

[Henry B 50]

Yes, the Raiders March is everywhere. However, it's rarely big and brassy; most of the time it's syrupy and sweet.

Yep, the filmic end of Indy's Very First Adventure features one of my favourite arrangements of the march. It tell's the audience welcome back. Welcome back to Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones. And I get goosebumps every time!

Yeah, that's the problem. The film and music are so affectionate at that point that you half expect Ford to look right into the camera and wink.

Funny, I didn't sense that was about to happen at all. Funnily enough it didn't happen either. Its all in your head.

You mean Ford doesn't actually wink on film? Gee, I had no idea. I guess that destroys my completely literal argument.

[Red 75]

I like all of the scores very much, and pretty much rate them equally. That being said, The Last Crusade is my personal favorite out of the three, and is one of my favorite Williams scores period. It's more personal than the others, which isn't to say that the over-the-top aspect of Temple of Doom is bad. I like them both for different reasons.

[Quintus 5,399]

You mean Ford doesn't actually wink on film? Gee, I had no idea. I guess that destroys my completely literal argument.

Gee, does it?

Sorry to hear that fellow Williams enthusiast.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Sometimes I think a great reality show could be made by forcing certain members to live in a house with other certain members.

Anyhoo, I don't know the full scores well enough to judge. Although I recently heard ToD in all its complete glory, and it might have the upper hand.

[MSM 126]

Last Crusade is the best of the Indy scores.

[Henry B 50]

[Delorean90 42]

It's nearly impossible to call one better than the other, because, like the films they were written for, they are all on about the same plane in different ways. Raiders is the original, out-and-out 4 star classic, with perhaps a bit more depth and/or grown-upness about it than the others while still having that fun and adventure. TOD probably has the least depth, but succeeds perhaps the best on the level of a throwback to the old RKO adventure stuff, and is a fun romp. Last Crusade has this certain classiness to it (reflected in the score), has a volume of humor that rivals TOD, and also integrates that buddy/road movie element into it while still being very much in line with the others. All of them are great, fun movies.

In certain ways, the respective scores kind of mirror these differences and facets of the films, but I find it hard to imagine that anyone can realistically refute the consistent quality of writing in each score (TOD/LC to Williams/Thorne? Please). I appreciate each of them because they are in the same kind of musical idiom and feel, but they explore different facets of the character and the premise of the films. Not to cop-out, but I can't really pick. If I was forced at gunpoint, I would surely pick Raiders, because it is a classic, and each piece of music is so good and so important. But to really say one is better than the other...well, each is better than the other at different things.

"Desert Chase" and "Belly of the Steel Beast" aren't really apt comparisons. The Raiders sequence is really the chase scene. The LC sequence is almost more like a pirate fight on tanks, if that makes sense. The music in the former sticks to that fast-paced intensity, whereas the latter is attached more to the big, lumbering quality of the tanks while still maintaining the action sensibility, to fine musical results IMO.

[ChuckM 1]

Doom is by far my least favorite of the three, with Crusade coming in first.

[John Crichton 4]

Sometimes I think a great reality show could be made by forcing certain members to live in a house with other certain members.

But who'd pay the medical bills? (physical and psychological)

Last Crusade > Raiders > Temple of Doom

Though all three are so great that's hardly fair.

[indy4 155]

My favorite Indy score is LC, but I love all of them almost equally. LC and PoA constantly battle it out for the position of my favorite all time score.

[Trent Hoyt 13]

The Grail theme is one of my all time favorites.

[MrScratch 294]

"Desert Chase" and "Belly of the Steel Beast" aren't really apt comparisons. The Raiders sequence is really the chase scene. The LC sequence is almost more like a pirate fight on tanks, if that makes sense. The music in the former sticks to that fast-paced intensity, whereas the latter is attached more to the big, lumbering quality of the tanks while still maintaining the action sensibility, to fine musical results IMO.

If there are any two Williams tracks apt to comparison it is these two. Both scenes are stunt-laden setpieces taking place prior to the final act in the film where the artifact is revealed. In both scenes Indy takes on a German convoy single-handedly, even down to the detail of showing up to the scene on horseback. The Last Crusade scene is obviously an attempt to outdo the Desert Chase, but the two are very similar.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

i prefer the Lasc crusade scene.

The nazi officer puppet toy on the tank rolling down the cliff, is awful though.

[Ollie 1,059]

A lot of the big summer movies that year had awful effects: Batman, Star Trek V, Last Crusade....

Ghostbusters II had the best effects, you would have thought ILM would have done a better job with LC.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Shush! I hope they dont spend all the resources on iron man.

I dont want to make my 'fiction statement' from Rubén's thread a reality (specially after 'complaining' about it)

[John Takis 206]

Last Crusade is the least of the scores (and films) in my book. It's not even close. TOD is my favorite, but I think a good case can be made for Raiders being the best overall.

[publicist 4,643]

Last Crusade is the least of the scores (and films) in my book. It's not even close. TOD is my favorite, but I think a good case can be made for Raiders being the best overall.

The problem with 'Last Crusade' is that it has some splendid themes, the Knight stuff in particular, but the themes come up too fragmented. 'Temple of Doom' at least has every theme developed full throttle, and they're pretty good, too.

I'd like an arrangement of the lyrical grail themes in fashion of 'Restoration' from 'Jane Eyre', at least four minutes and with lots of ornaments. Did Williams ever do a concert arrangement of those?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Last Crusade is the most varied of the current 3 Indy scores.

[Jacob 0]

I just listened to Doom and Crusade the other day. Of course both are excellent, but something just draws me to Doom (that can't be good ). I'm not as exposed or familiar with it so I suppose it seems more fresh.

But I think it has more to do with being drawn to the raw power of the Slave Children's Crusade theme. I loved that theme even before becoming a serious film score fan.