Episode II vs. Episode III

[Josh500 1,615]

Which NEW music JW wrote (and I am not talking about the horrible edits) do you prefer and why?

I have to say the new music from Episode II is far more interesting and awesome. It's got more action (Zam's Assassin, Jango's Escape, Arena, etc.), more emotion (Across the Stars), and far better underscore.

Anybody agree? If not, why is Episode III better?

[Datameister 2,044]

I probably prefer ROTS. I wouldn't put either on par with Williams' greatest works, but I definitely like both. The action music in AOTC is probably stronger and less generic, and "Across the Stars" is gorgeous. But ROTS benefits from the film's darker story, and in the end, it connects more with me as a whole - even though there was potential for much more in certain areas.

[Giftheck 916]

Episode III has much darker music as well as half of it is lamentations.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Yeah, the darker tinges of ROTS, along with it being generally a bit more epic and tragic, make it a lot more interesting. I think AOTC is the least of the saga in film and score, and while some of it is pretty damn good (the love theme, the Coruscant chase music, the Kamino music), it doesn't hit me that much, and I can pick half a dozen cues in ROTS that are way better, such as Boys Into Battle, I Am The Senate, Lament, The Immolation Scene, It Can't Be, Anakin's Dark Deeds. There's real meat on the bones, and I don't find much in comparison in AOTC.

[ChuckM 1]

ROTS definitely, although I do like the new stuff in AotC too.

[King Mark 3,631]

RotS BY far

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

When they release AOTC in expanded-complete form it is going to be a revelation in certain areas.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

RotS by a mile. There are a few cues in AotC that I enjoy, but generally it's an uninspired score for me. I can at least watch RotS.

[crocodile 8,017]

When they release AOTC in expanded-complete form it is going to be a revelation in certain areas.

Yes, that's true.

Actually, while Episode III has probably more emotion, it isn't really memorable. On the other hand AOTC, as lacking as it is, has several highlights that are better than most of the material ROTS (chase cue, ATS, finale, arena, conveyor belt, force theme/dotf transition). At least in my opinion.

Karol

[Trent B 337]

The new stuff for Attack Of The Clones is pretty cool to listen to, however the unreleased material for Revenge Of The Sith beats Attack Of The Clones by a mile.

[Jacob 0]

I really like Attack of the Clones.

But I like Revenge of the Sith more.

Why?

- The complete Battle of the Heroes duel

- Lament (and the reprisal)

- Anakin's Dark Deeds (both halves of the OST track, minus the micro-edit in the spine-tingling finale)

Not to mention all the sleek new renditions of the Force theme (of which Clones has almost none worth mentioning, excepting that neat pairing with Duel of the Fates).

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I think that ROTS is kind of a mess thematically. The love theme in AOTC gives that score more consistency.

By the way I find it amusing that the AOTC soundtrack includes no references to the title clones outside of the actual title. Williams mostly avoid that whole angle of the film when he could have composed a new republic march or something. Definitely a failure.

[Datameister 2,044]

ROTS is a bit of a thematic mess, I admit. It presents a number of very good new ideas, but they never get developed as fully as I'd like. And Anakin's theme gets almost completely ignored - a fault that ROTS shares with AOTC.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

ROTS, no doubt. In my opinion the best score of the trilogy. The official sountrack is good, but it's only when you got the *ahem* "expanded" version you realize how much effort did Johnny put into this one. The combination between chorus and orchestra is the mayor highlight for me.

The only problem I see with this score is that there are tons of excellent ideas (most of them were mentioned above), but as the Filmtracks review well points out, none of them seems properly developed. I mean, Johnny should have used the theme of Battle of the Heroes more through the film. Every time Anakin is angry at Obi-Wan, make the theme sound, at least soflty, and then BAM! You got the full theme during the battle.

Or another why I see it is that Johnny should have used all the major new themes from the PT (Anakins Theme, Across the Stars, etc) included in the Battle of the Heroes. Like in "Nixon" the cue "Thr Turbulent Years", which seems to be an inspiration for Across the Stars, I always imagine that that music would have fit wonderfully in the battle between Anakin and Obi.

Sorry if it's confusing, but that's why I think.

PS: Glad to have your polls back, Josh!

[indy4 155]

The music of RotS is among the best JW has ever written. Not quite a masterpiece, but really really close.

AotC is very good, parts of it are outstanding (Chase Through Couruscant), but as a whole it's not as good as RotS.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

ROTS is a bit of a thematic mess, I admit. It presents a number of very good new ideas, but they never get developed as fully as I'd like. And Anakin's theme gets almost completely ignored - a fault that ROTS shares with AOTC.

ROTS has a ton of great moments. It's a very nice selection of music and I'd love to have it all officially released. Yet, in the context of the movie I hate how Williams threw in these random references to the other SW scores, like the Rebel fanfare when Artoo uses his Ewok zapper on the bug droid, Anakin's theme in that one instance, the Coruscant departure in the blockade runner scene, the duel from ESB when the Emperor is fighting Yoda! I was never even a proponent of musically introducing the Imperial March in the prequels for instance since it's chronologically missing from the original SW, but at that point it was like what the hell. I try to believe it was never composed for that part of the movie, but it seems it was. I wanted to hear the Emperor and Yoda's theme in some wonderful new action cue that we would be salivating over rear channel rips for years. Even Duel of the Fates in that scene felt phoned in and I love that piece regardless.

[King Mark 3,631]

I also think RotS is outstanding ,but as I always say I base that on the expanded score and not the OST. The OST also highlighted the main flaw of the score that is re-using the ESB duel,TPM GuiGon's Funeral and Throne Room music .With the expanded score those parts matter much less because of the dilution effect and that they don't take the place of other music that could have been included instead

The AotC is a very well constructed OST by Williams standards and is missing less highlights than RotS

[Koray Savas 2,251]

No poll?

I choose Episode III.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

why not ask which do you prefer arsenic or cyanide.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I prefer strychnine... ugly way to die.

[Neimoidian 14]

When they release AOTC in expanded-complete form it is going to be a revelation in certain areas.

Yes, that's true.

Actually, while Episode III has probably more emotion, it isn't really memorable. On the other hand AOTC, as lacking as it is, has several highlights that are better than most of the material ROTS (chase cue, ATS, finale, arena, conveyor belt, force theme/dotf transition). At least in my opinion.

Karol

Mine too.

[MattyO 62]

After searching around from some unreleased ROTS material to listen to, I have to say that I find Sith far and away the better score - there's so much unreleased music that reminds me of 1980s Williams in that score. I do adore the Clones finale though.

Speaking of the prequels, after hearing some of the unused battle music from Phantom Menace and the unreleased music from Sith, the intended complete prequel scores have jumped to the top of my grail list (hoping that we get a complete Hook this year). I really hope this music gets a release soon.

[MissPadmé 17]

RotS BY far

..what he said

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's like comparing the McDonalds hamburger to the Burger King Hamburger.

Both get the job done with minimal effort, but that's about it.

[Josh500 1,615]

Yes, that's true.

Actually, while Episode III has probably more emotion, it isn't really memorable. On the other hand AOTC, as lacking as it is, has several highlights that are better than most of the material ROTS (chase cue, ATS, finale, arena, conveyor belt, force theme/dotf transition). At least in my opinion.

Karol

Well-said, that was exactly me feeling...

But maybe I am underestimating RotS. I always get the feeling when I listen to it that JW was getting a bit tired of the whole Star Wars when he wrote it. Like he wanted to get the job done, and that's it. There is not the full-out energy and enthusiasm in it, somehow, like I sense in AotC. But yeah, that's probably because RotS IS a much darker, more serious movie...

[Datameister 2,044]

To say that any Williams score was accomplished with "minimal effort" is preposterous, IMO. The amount of skill, knowledge, talent, and craft required to write even the most mediocre Williams score still exceeds what a lot of film composers are even capable of.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yet for Williams, it was a minimal effort.

[Josh500 1,615]

ROTS is a bit of a thematic mess, I admit. It presents a number of very good new ideas, but they never get developed as fully as I'd like. And Anakin's theme gets almost completely ignored - a fault that ROTS shares with AOTC.

ROTS has a ton of great moments. It's a very nice selection of music and I'd love to have it all officially released. Yet, in the context of the movie I hate how Williams threw in these random references to the other SW scores, like the Rebel fanfare when Artoo uses his Ewok zapper on the bug droid, Anakin's theme in that one instance, the Coruscant departure in the blockade runner scene, the duel from ESB when the Emperor is fighting Yoda! I was never even a proponent of musically introducing the Imperial March in the prequels for instance since it's chronologically missing from the original SW, but at that point it was like what the hell. I try to believe it was never composed for that part of the movie, but it seems it was. I wanted to hear the Emperor and Yoda's theme in some wonderful new action cue that we would be salivating over rear channel rips for years. Even Duel of the Fates in that scene felt phoned in and I love that piece regardless.

Agreed.

But again, that's why I stressed the point: the NEW music JW wrote. I wanted to focus on the new themes, underscore, and ideas.

To say that any Williams score was accomplished with "minimal effort" is preposterous, IMO. The amount of skill, knowledge, talent, and craft required to write even the most mediocre Williams score still exceeds what a lot of film composers are even capable of.

Yes, what's "minimal effort" for John Williams is what most other composers will never achieve...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nevertheless I'm not that interested in a person's half-hearted efforts.

[indy4 155]

I don't understand this...what parts of RotS sound uninspired to you guys?

[Datameister 2,044]

Yet for Williams, it was a minimal effort.

That's different.

[Josh500 1,615]

I don't understand this...what parts of RotS sound uninspired to you guys?

If you ask me, both are masterpieces (by ANY standards). But I find the music for AotC slightly superior.

I was just listening to Jango's Escape, and isn't the horn/trombone line at 2:17-2:25 simply mind-blowing? That moment always catches my attention.

[Datameister 2,044]

That part of the cue never really caught my attention as "mind-blowing", but I do like it, and there are parts of that cue that I like even more. IMO, it's an example of Williams' modern action writing being put to good use. I know many here disagree, though.

[Josh500 1,615]

That part of the cue never really caught my attention as "mind-blowing", but I do like it, and there are parts of that cue that I like even more. IMO, it's an example of Williams' modern action writing being put to good use. I know many here disagree, though.

Yes, I guess that's why I noticed it in the first place. This sounds so ultra-modern... but it's more than that. It sounds almost jazzy, tremendous, almost dangerous. I think this is one of those brief moments only JW could have written it.

[Wojo 2,453]

why not ask which do you prefer arsenic or cyanide.

And yet neither Episode II nor Episode III does as thorough a job killing people as either poison.

Even Twilight Zone: The Movie, with a far superior score, has killed more people.

[Uni 306]

I think that ROTS is kind of a mess thematically. The love theme in AOTC gives that score more consistency.

I think (along with several others here, apparently) that this sums up the dichotomy between the two. I also agree that ROTS is the better score, but it does lack the usual thematic continuity so prevalent in most Williams' scores. In other words, "Across the Stars" helps cover over a lot of the second score's shortcomings, making it sound like it's another epic JW/SW installment. But ROTS is so much more musically diverse, so much more substantive, creative, dramatic. One of the most haunting cues that always comes to mind when I think of this score (and I'm surprised it hasn't come up yet in this conversation) is "Padme's Ruminations." That one, along with the laments and grieving adagios, makes this a deeper, more meaningful experience.

I'll also grant, however, that a little more classic Williams thematic continuity would've been nice. And the falling back on prior themes that have no real connection to a scene (a.k.a. "Duel of the Fates" at the end) was not one of his finer choices.

By the way I find it amusing that the AOTC soundtrack includes no references to the title clones outside of the actual title.

I still don't see why the hell the movie is called that in the first place. While The Phantom Menace wins the award for most pretentious, silly title for a movie, Attack of the Clones gets runner up for irrelevance. "Attack" usually carries the connotation of invasive violence from an antagonistic source. But the clones didn't "attack" anyone but the bad guys (and that only at the end of the film). It's like a soldier hearing the anticipated trumpet call heralding his rescue saying, "It's the attack of the cavalry!" Stupid. (Of course, turning that same cliche around and applying it to the film's title would've made it even more ridiculous: Star Wars Episode II: Here Come The Clones!)

- Uni

[Datameister 2,044]

Actually, when you really think about it, the only Star Wars movie that has a really sensible title is Revenge of the Sith. (Well, and Star Wars itself, but that's different.) The Empire Strikes Back just sounds silly if you really parse the meaning...Return of the Jedi suggests that the Jedi actually return during the film, which they don't...and you've covered the other two prequels. Oh well.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I don't find The Phantom Menace a pretentious title. It's silly, yes, but it's yet another homage to the titles of all those old serials. And yeah, they're all a bit silly and overblown, although I like ESB and ROTJ because they're really literal (i.e. the empire striking back and the jedi (Anakin) returning). AOTC is the one that is a little over the top for me, and yeah, it doesn't really work.

Also, I find Jango's Escape uninspiring. I agree with Scott that ROTS may be thematically weird, but the drama and emotion and sheer greatness of a lot of it makes up for that. AOTC just seems like it's there, it only does anything that jolts me in a few places.

[Red 75]

Definitely Revenge of the Sith. Attack of the Clones is without question the worst of the series, which is appropriate given the trash that is the film. It's not bad or anything, just a bit average compared to the rest of the saga and Williams' work as a whole. Both pale in comparison to The Phantom Menace however, that was when Williams seemed to be really on fire about the possibilities with the material.

Actually, now that I think about it, AOTC may be the worst movie Williams has ever composed for.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Definitely Revenge of the Sith. Attack of the Clones is without question the worst of the series, which is appropriate given the trash that is the film. It's not bad or anything, just a bit average compared to the rest of the saga and Williams' work as a whole. Both pale in comparison to The Phantom Menace however, that was when Williams seemed to be really on fire about the possibilities with the material.

Actually, now that I think about it, AOTC may be the worst movie Williams has ever composed for.

I think it'd be a title bout between AOTC and SUPERMAN IV.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How about Heartbeeps, or Spacecamp?

[Josh500 1,615]

Actually, now that I think about it, AOTC may be the worst movie Williams has ever composed for.

One of the worst movies, definitely, but not one of the worst scores.

[indy4 155]

1941

[steb74 53]

I guess I must be in the microscopic minority that finds Ep 2 & 3 to contain some of Williams' richest thematic development ever, more than TPM.

While I do love the music from Ep 1, for me it's most certainly my least favourite musically of the PT as the writing has much more in common with ROTJ which to me is the least representative of what I enjoy about the Star Wars sound and what I fell in love with originally.

It's a tough decision but I probably do enjoy the music from ROTS just a little more, I think AOTC however has the most in common with the original Star Wars by not being quite as orchestrally dense and it's tone in general.

Ideas that were created in TPM and developed through Ep 2 and brought to some wonderful conclusions in Ep 3 provide me with such a rich thematic musical journey, I certainly can't complain ...well, except for the fact that this can only be experienced by fan created edits as the OSTs miss out so much and the powers that be seem have no interest in releasing expanded/complete scores for the time being at least.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I like ESB and ROTJ because they're really literal (i.e. the empire striking back and the jedi (Anakin) returning).

I think ROTJ means the return of the Jedi in the form of luke skywalker, because through him the jedi will surge again. It makes sense in the OT context, and definately it what they had in mind when they named the track now called 'Sail barge assault', 'Return of the Jedi' in the album and Anthology.

[King Mark 3,631]

Joe hates the Prequels AotC and rotS amd he lets that carry 100% over in his appreciation of Williams music on it's own

[Uni 306]

How about Heartbeeps, or Spacecamp?

Spacecamp wasn't a great movie by any means, but it was goofy fun, and had its moments. Williams gave it a glorious score--probably much more than it deserved--but I can't call it the worst movie he composed for.

- Uni

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I don't think I could sit through Heartbeeps again.

[Demondm810 399]

I really think I prefer Episode II's music. I really appreciate the subtlety. It's

honestly the score I wish I had in complete form more than any other.

[Henry B 50]

Episode II is bizarre, to say the least. Some of the music is among Williams' subtlest, or perhaps dullest (it depends on my mood). There are some classic "Star Wars" cues, of course. But the unreleased music is ridiculously campy! All those fanfares. Now, sometimes I like campy, and maybe I like this, but... I don't know, it's weird.

Episode III is more consistent in tone, except when it carelessly recycles old music. Not too intellectual or too campy.