Brónach 1,305 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 7 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said: Comments have been made that making the lead character male would have been a cliche i haven't seen this one. i don't know if the word is cliche. i think we're allowed to have a movie about a fictional lesbian. they don't make that many of these. or at least interesting ones. (also rarely by lesbians) but then again, i'm neither a conductor nor a filmmaker nor have i seen this one. i haven't yet seen Love Lies Bleeding either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,476 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 10 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said: Marin Alsop didn't like it: Quote In an interview with The Sunday Times, conductor Marin Alsop shared her dislike of the film, calling it "anti-woman", saying "I was offended: I was offended as a woman, I was offended as a conductor, I was offended as a lesbian. To have an opportunity to portray a woman in that role and to make her an abuser – for me that was heartbreaking."[59] In response, Blanchett told BBC Radio 4, the film was a "meditation on power, and power is genderless", and that while her character shares similarities with Alsop, it is a complete work of fiction.[60] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tár I didn't think it was "anti-woman". This is sad proof to me that we get so few tragedies in film today - stories where a character is brought down by their tragic flaw - that when people see a tragedy they don't know how to digest it. crocodile 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 10,297 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 Alsop probably has her own agendum. Tallguy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,891 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 1 hour ago, Chen G. said: This is sad proof to me that we get so few tragedies in film today - stories where a character is brought down by their tragic flaw - that when people see a tragedy they don't know how to digest it. I didn't see Tár (primarily) as a relatable tragic character. She's too close to real life examples of conductors who were horrible tyrants, even if (perhaps even because of that) they produced great artistic results. Someone like Alsop probably had to contend with people like that throughout her career to become successful, maybe even had to oppose them, or maybe even oppose using their method herself (surely male conductors at least can get a career advantage out of at least some of that stuff, as long as they're artistically convincing enough and have enough people on their side). Tár is a character remarkably similar to Alsop in some aspects who probably behaves very much in a way that many people she encountered in reality do and in which she herself probably very deliberately doesn't. That doesn't necessarily make the film "wrong". But she has a point - at the very least a subjective, but valid one. How the film portrays this behaviour seems mostly very accurate. It's quite uncomfortably successful in that regard. Schilkeman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,280 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 It's always understandable and perfectly legitimate for someone to hate a portrayal of themselves, or even one which is suggested to be partially based on or vaguely inspired by them (whether the suggestion is correct or not). But Alsop's complaint about the offensiveness of Tár (the implied unacceptability of depicting such a character in a negative light) is truly reprehensible, and absolutely shameful coming from someone working in the arts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,891 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 I don't think it's an implied general unacceptability, and Alsop's objection may be stronger than it "needs" to be. But as long as it is virtually the *only* film centred on a world-famous, female, lesbian conductor, it's arguably at this point that *every* film with such a character is portraying it as a villain - and I think that's what her phrasing implies ("To have an opportunity to portray a woman in that role and to make her an abuser", emphasis mine). So I do think she has a point, even if it isn't one that has to be shared by everyone. Rejecting it as entirely reprehensible seems about as extreme to me as generally rejecting the film because of her view on it. Tom Guernsey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Guernsey 2,609 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 41 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: I don't think it's an implied general unacceptability, and Alsop's objection may be stronger than it "needs" to be. But as long as it is virtually the *only* film centred on a world-famous, female, lesbian conductor, it's arguably at this point that *every* film with such a character is portraying it as a villain - and I think that's what her phrasing implies ("To have an opportunity to portray a woman in that role and to make her an abuser", emphasis mine). So I do think she has a point, even if it isn't one that has to be shared by everyone. Rejecting it as entirely reprehensible seems about as extreme to me as generally rejecting the film because of her view on it. I can understand why she was so upset though. In world that’s so male dominated, even more so than for composers I would say, the only fictional representation of your profession and gender being about such a monster must be pretty galling. For what it’s worth, I enjoyed it for the most part even if Tar clearly knows fuck all about Jerry Goldsmith 😜 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,280 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 19 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: ...as long as it is virtually the *only* film centred on a world-famous, female, lesbian conductor, it's arguably at this point that *every* film with such a character is portraying it as a villain... Yeah, but only because there's only one such film, so the word "every" isn't signifying much. 32 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: Rejecting it as entirely reprehensible seems about as extreme to me as generally rejecting the film because of her view on it. Maybe - I'm happy enough to have my views called "extreme"! Moderation is overrated, and I wasn't criticising Alsop's comments for their extremeness... All the same, I think the comparison is a poor one. There's nothing in Tár to suggest that the makers intend us to extrapolate Tár's negative traits (to women in general, or to lesbians, or to conductors), and I haven't seen Alsop argue otherwise; it's just an individual who happens to belong to those groups. As such, Alsop's castigation of the film for failing to use the opportunity to portray such a character in a positive light amounts to a prescriptive attitude to the purpose and function of films (or some of them), and that is what I find reprehensible. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,891 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 25 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said: Yeah, but only because there's only one such film, so the word "every" isn't signifying much. It seems to me that was at least partly her point though. If there were plenty of other films with such a setting, I imagine she wouldn't object to one of them vilifying its subject. 25 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said: All the same, I think the comparison is a poor one. There's nothing in Tár to suggest that the makers intend us to extrapolate Tár's negative traits (to women in general, or to lesbians, or to conductors), That's what I said myself, and why I don't think it's a valid reason to generally condemn the film. But like Tom managed to phrase more concisely than I did above, I think her POV can be understood. 25 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said: and I haven't seen Alsop argue otherwise; it's just an individual who happens to belong to those groups. As such, Alsop's castigation of the film for failing to use the opportunity to portray such a character in a positive light amounts to a prescriptive attitude to the purpose and function of films (or some of them), and that is what I find reprehensible. It's a quote copied from Wikipedia, which likely took it from a longer source (and interview I would imagine). I don't expect it has the full context, and I would expect (but I obviously don't know) that if you were to talk to her about it, she would elaborate in more detail what specifically she objected to and what she (maybe/I imagine) didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 4,476 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 4 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said: I didn't see Tár (primarily) as a relatable tragic character. She's too close to real life examples of conductors who were horrible tyrants, even if (perhaps even because of that) they produced great artistic results. I mean, in the opening portions of the film she's not terribly dislikable. She seems reasonably congenial. And then her hamartien (tragic flaws) start to surface, and ultimately become her undoing. Seems like textbook tragedy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 8,680 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said: For what it’s worth, I enjoyed it for the most part even if Tar clearly knows fuck all about Jerry Goldsmith 😜 I haven't seen it. Does she mention Goldsmith? And it's under a negative light, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,280 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 1 minute ago, Marian Schedenig said: It seems to me that was at least partly her point though. If there were plenty of other films with such a setting, I imagine she wouldn't object to one of them vilifying its subject. I agree, and, conversely, if there were half a dozen film portrayals of female conductors, all of them predominantly negative, that would surely reflect some sort of worrying underlying prejudice. But when there's only one, it can't be expected to be representative, and shouldn't be required to be. It would be absurd to insist that, for every group X, a negative portrayal of a character included in X is only permissible once a sufficient number of positive ones already exist. 11 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: That's what I said myself, and why I don't think it's a valid reason to generally condemn the film. I know - I repeated it only by way of expressing what it is about Alsop's apparent attitude that I object to. 19 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: It's a quote copied from Wikipedia, which likely took it from a longer source... There's a bit more of it here. Quote “All women and all feminists should be bothered by that kind of depiction because it’s not really about women conductors, is it? It’s about women as leaders in our society. People ask, ‘Can we trust them? Can they function in that role?’ It’s the same questions whether it’s about a CEO or an NBA coach or the head of a police department.” Alsop added that there “are so many ... actual, documented men” Lydia Tár emulates with her problematic and cruel behavior, yet the awards-season darling “instead ... puts a woman in the role but gives her all the attributes of those men.” “That feels anti-woman,” Alsop continued. “To assume that women will either behave identically to men or become hysterical, crazy, insane is to perpetuate something we’ve already seen on film so many times before.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Guernsey 2,609 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 3 hours ago, Edmilson said: I haven't seen it. Does she mention Goldsmith? And it's under a negative light, right? Yeah it’s something about Planet of the Apes being ripped off from Stravinsky which shows an astonishing lack of knowledge of Planet of the Apes and Stravinsky… Edmilson and Naïve Old Fart 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,891 Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 2 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said: Yeah it’s something about Planet of the Apes being ripped off from Stravinsky which shows an astonishing lack of knowledge of Planet of the Apes and Stravinsky… Varese. And since I don't know anything by Varese, I have no idea if her comment makes sense. Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post The Great Gonzales 6,201 Posted April 19 Popular Post Share Posted April 19 32 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: Varese. And since I don't know anything by Varese, I have no idea if her comment makes sense. Well, Varese did release PotA on CD.... Edmilson, crocodile, Tallguy and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,412 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 13 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said: Yeah it’s something about Planet of the Apes being ripped off from Stravinsky which shows an astonishing lack of knowledge of Planet of the Apes and Stravinsky… Actually it was about Varese saying something negative about Jews and then she finds it ironic/funny that Goldsmith rips him off for Planet of the Apes. Something like that. But that quote, regardless of the "real" opinion of Goldsmith, has other context in the scene. Blanchett's character makes a point about associating composer's personality and/or opinions from their work in response to one student who didn't have any interest in Bach because he was a "straight white male". So it's more about (what people like to refer to as) "cancel culture" more than anything else. Karol Loert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,536 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 14 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said: Yeah it’s something about Planet of the Apes being ripped off from Stravinsky which shows an astonishing lack of knowledge of Planet of the Apes and Stravinsky… Yeah, I don't hear anything resembling Stravinsky in Goldsmith's POTA either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Guernsey 2,609 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 12 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said: Varese. And since I don't know anything by Varese, I have no idea if her comment makes sense. My bad for confusing my 20th century composers, although since Varese started a very popular record label with his friend Dave Sarabande, through which many Jerry Goldsmith scores have been released, I should clearly have known it wasn’t Stravinsky*. I’m not massively familiar with Varese’s (fairly modest) output but I don’t recall it sounding anything like POTA. Then again one of his most famous works based largely based on the Rite of Spring. So in a way, I was almost right… *may contain lies. 1 hour ago, A24 said: Yeah, I don't hear anything resembling Stravinsky in Goldsmith's POTA either. The Omen on the other hand… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,891 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said: 2 hours ago, A24 said: Yeah, I don't hear anything resembling Stravinsky in Goldsmith's POTA either. The Omen on the other hand… "No, that's Orff!" It isn't. Tom Guernsey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,536 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 Williams did a bit of Stravinky, but so did Vangelis with Spiral, where he perhaps unintentionally quoted him verbatim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,891 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 Where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,536 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 8 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said: Where? Spiral, the first track on Spiral. Press play and it starts right where Vangelis is 'borrowing' from Stravinsky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,891 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 I'm familiar with Spiral (I just played it again the other day), but probably not with the Stravinsky, because it doesn't remind me of anything. What is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,536 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 I only have it on CD-R and I forgot to write down the title of the CD. I might upload the track tomorrow so that you can hear it. Marian Schedenig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,412 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 6 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said: "No, that's Orff!" It isn't. It's funny how Stravinsky "contributed" additional material for three consecutive Academy Award-winning scores in 1975-1977. 😉 Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,568 Posted April 20 Share Posted April 20 The money pit. Happy I finished it. Hanks sounds almost unrecognisable, Long is fantastic, the sound mix and the music is great and the OST doesn't exist. Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 2,151 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 How on earth Paltrow won the Oscar over Blanchett's performance, I will never understand... Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davis 2,768 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Had it been made 10-20 years earlier, Redford would’ve played Brad Pitt’s role and he would’ve played it much better. Nevertheless it’s a fine film about beautiful Montana and fly fishing. And some other stuff. Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeping Strings 2,572 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Transporter 2 - the Stath unleashes his 'certain set of skills' on more Eurotrash baddies in another enjoyably silly actioner. Also starring Jason Flemyng and an arguably slumming it Matthew Modine. Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davis 2,768 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 On 21/4/2024 at 8:00 AM, filmmusic said: How on earth Paltrow won the Oscar over Blanchett's performance, I will never understand... Me, neither. And she’s great in the sequel as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 On 21/04/2024 at 8:00 AM, filmmusic said: How on earth Paltrow won the Oscar over Blanchett's performance, I will never understand... Weren't they nominated in two different categories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davis 2,768 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 46 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: Weren't they nominated in two different categories? ACTRESS IN A LEADING ROLE WINNER GWYNETH PALTROW Shakespeare in Love NOMINEES CATE BLANCHETT Elizabeth FERNANDA MONTENEGRO Central Station MERYL STREEP One True Thing EMILY WATSON Hilary and Jackie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Well, Shakespeare in Love is a great movie. Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davis 2,768 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 It is, but imo Blanchett’s performance is much better than Paltrow’s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerateWohl 4,972 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Blanchett's performance is always good, unless it is somewhat supposed to be romantic. The closest she got to a tangible romantic performance was in Heaven. Great film by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davis 2,768 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 As a poet, and a hopelessly romantic man, films like this are very close to my heart. Not nearly perfect, but has some really nice moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 10,297 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 I've not seen this, but I like Campion's previous work. Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,536 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Is that a new Campion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,280 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 A fifteen year old one. Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,536 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Never seen it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 8,680 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 On 25/04/2024 at 10:48 AM, Naïve Old Fart said: I've not seen this, but I like Campion's previous work. Even that one where we see Harvey Keitel's dick? Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,536 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 15 minutes ago, Edmilson said: Even that one where we have the "privilege" of seeing Harvey Keitel's dick? Hey, that was my mom's favorite flick, together with Lawrence Of Arabia. Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 10,297 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 38 minutes ago, Edmilson said: Even that one where we have the "privilege" of seeing Harvey Keitel's dick? You mean THE PIANO? I have absolutely no interest in Keitel's dick, but I like the film. Edmilson and Davis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 8,680 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 minute ago, Naïve Old Fart said: I have absolutely no interest in Keitel's dick, but I like the film. Seems like a great movie (aside from Keitel's weiner). It's on my watchlist. 25 minutes ago, A24 said: Hey, that was my mom's favorite flick, together with Lawrence Of Arabia. Hopefully not because of "lil' Harvey" making a special guest appearance, right? Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,536 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 minute ago, Edmilson said: Seems like a great movie (aside from Keitel's weiner). It's on my watchlist. Hopefully not because of "lil' Harvey" making a special guest appearance, right? I never confronted her with that particular question, but who knows, maybe it was. Say, is there a male nakedness in Lawrence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 10,297 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Just now, A24 said: Say, is there a male nakedness in Lawrence? Only in the torture scene, with the Turkish Bey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,536 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Anyway, I think it was because of Omar Sharif. Davis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davis 2,768 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 It occured to me that Sharif’s character in Hidalgo is sort of the same character as in LoA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 2,151 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 A sanitized Hollywood version of the story of Christ. Spectacular, but I personally think it relied much on unwanted scenes like the two battles with Barabbas, the Roman centurion etc.. I think I prefer The Greatest Story ever told, and certainly Jesus of Nazareth. And of course, above all, I love The Passion of Christ, for the depiction of Christ's last hours. I couldn't understand in the other versions the degree of his martyrdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,882 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Blessed are the cheese makers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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