Do You Truly Hate Hans Zimmer? (Musically.)

[Ren 75]

I like Zimmer to a point. His orchestral scores are like trance music to me. Mostly a wash of sound for the background while I'm doing other things. There are very very few cues that I aesthetically adore of his. Though I can not deny his overall appeal to the masses. It's a shame that he subs out his scores, loads of piecemeal, etc. and it's a shame that the Zimmer sound has sort of become a Hollywood staple. I mean you could drop the inception score in the dark knight rises trailer and be ok. And honestly, whether you think it erroneous or not, that blatty brass sound coupled with epic drums is cliche Zimmer at this point and I teach it as an identifiable aspect.

[KK 3,307]

People should give his non-blockbuster scores a chance. Scores like Beyond Rangoon just prove that's he's not just a "wallpaper music" composer. He's had many moments where he's cranked out beautiful music.

[publicist 4,643]

Horner is just a lazy genius. I don't consider Zimmer to be lazy at all. Whether or not Zimmer is a genius is debatable, but I'd say he is.

Let's not frisbee a term like genius. Film composers seldom are geniuses and neither Horner nor Zimmer deserve the honor - for different reasons.

[Thor 7,508]

People should give his non-blockbuster scores a chance. Scores like Beyond Rangoon just prove that's he's not just a "wallpaper music" composer. He's had many moments where he's cranked out beautiful music.

BEYOND RANGOON is fantastic. My favourite by Zimmer and my 5th favourite score of all time -- regardless of composer!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Horner has had moments of sheer genius though, a fair few more then Hans

[Jeshopk 8]

I consider "Hans Zimmer" to be the name of a band. Sure, it's the name of a composer within that band as well, but just like with any band, pinpointing attribution to an individual is really tough. With band music, it takes a village, as they say.

[Quintus 5,399]

Horner is just a lazy genius. I don't consider Zimmer to be lazy at all. Whether or not Zimmer is a genius is debatable, but I'd say he is.

Let's not frisbee a term like genius. Film composers seldom are geniuses and neither Horner nor Zimmer deserve the honor - for different reasons.

When the term is readily bandied around when talking about thug football players and other sportsman then I absolutely reserve the right to apply it where I deem it genuinely deserved.

[Omen II 1,235]

How can anyone hate this classic? I love how bits of it sound so much like Driving Miss Daisy. Check out Hans himself from about 2:50 onwards.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

When the term is readily bandied around when talking about thug football players

Steven Gerrard is a warrior poet!

[A24 4,338]

Generally, I find Zimmer's scores to be effective when heard with the film.

That's true. When watching TDKR, there wasn't a single time when I thought his music killed it. That said, I didn't like the corniness of The Gladiator. That score is purely a case of 'overstating'.

Listen to him coming around, soon he will tell us Zimmer is a god, mark my words.

Alex Cremerus

[publicist 4,643]

As Zimmer said, they need a license to fuck up if the try something new, so i forgive him GLADIATOR (or at least his less-than-thrilling tries at writing adagios and Wagnerian grandioso).

As for Quint: we can play this genius limbo until we agree that Silvester Levay is a genius for writing the AIRWOLF theme, but honestly, the ratio of good vs. hack work in both Zimmer's and Horner's career (even within single scores) makes the term seem ill-advised. There were and are much more integer composers who deserve this label far more.

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm not trying to convince anyone, either. It's a non-issue, don't bother yourself with it.

Lee - who loves the masterful, sumptuous Gladiator score (and wishes Zimmer would return to those sensibilities).

[publicist 4,643]

If you don't want to discuss it, put it in a frame above your cd rack, not in a discussion forum.

[Quintus 5,399]

Heh heh, someone's irritable...

[gkgyver 1,645]

It's a good time, yes. Zimmer keeps on inventing and reinventing himself. As much as I absolutely adore his power anthem style, I'm glad he's also moved on to explore more ambient textures and hypnotic soundscapes.

The only reinvention he does is updating his sound library and putting a new cover on a CD with the same music.

He's still doing the same old music, the only difference is that his power anthems become shorter and he reads way too much into them.

Right, because THE THIN RED LINE, the BATMAN films, THE DA VINCI CODE, SHERLOCK HOLMES, INCEPTION are oh-so-full of 90s-style 'power anthems'.

The sound is very much the same. No progression at all. The Batman scores are as much power anthem scores as anything on Zimmer's record, the only difference is that they are shorter and that he had some ambient sounds thrown in.

I'm getting sick of people constantly referencing The Thin Red Line. It's not that fucking special.

[Thor 7,508]

*sigh*

Oh well, while you guys continue to hate, I continue to LOVE! Energy so much better spent.

[King Mark 3,631]

I think all of the movies Zimmer scored would be better if someone else did (non-RCP) . Maybe TDK or TDKR would actually be great movies with a full on orchestral score with themes instead of the wall to wall noise of Zimmer

And I've never been able to listen to one of his scores on album without quitting halfway out of irritation or boredom

Most scores coming out nowadays are unlistenable thanks to his influence. So yeah I hate him musically

[publicist 4,643]

*sigh*

Oh well, while you guys continue to hate, I continue to LOVE! Energy so much better spent.

Don't try to turn your lowbrow taste into moral superiority.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,534]

Like it or not, Zimmer's music connects with a lot of people, and directors flock to work with him, so I guess that there must be something going on.

Personally, I like "Rain Man", and "Thelma And Louise".

Personally, I can't forgive him for playing on "Doctor In Distress", and on a Fairlight, too. Oh, the humanity!!!

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

I don't think any subject is simply a matter of love or hate, because there are so many grey zones in any controversial subject. That's what happens with Zimmer most of the time with me: There's a lot of stuff that I like from him (The Lion King, Prince of Egypt, Backdraft, Gladiator, Spirit, True Romance, As Good as It Gets and even Sherlock Holmes), but when he's heart is not fully on the project is shows instantly, like in POTC for example... Heck, even he hates being automatically associated with only that franchise, the power-anthems and people not exploring his pre-2000 efforts. It's kinda similar with Williams, in the sense that most people associate him with the big Korngold-kind of sound and nothing else... Like most composers, or even artists, they get pidgeonholed for their biggest hits; which can be a blessing in terms of work, but can also be a curse in artistic terms.

Like I said, everything's grey. I don't think there are any subjects in the world that are black or white.

I would like if he slowed down or even took a break like Powell is doing right now to rethink his music and recapture that passion he seemed to have... But then I think, who am I to say if he's doing right or wrong?

[Matt C 454]

I'm getting sick of people constantly referencing The Thin Red Line. It's not that fucking special.

Okay, what Zimmer score would you say is good? Without sarcasm, please.

[Romão 2,274]

I do love Hannibal, I still think it is a album

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Maybe TDK or TDKR would actually be great movies with a full on orchestral score with themes instead of the wall to wall noise of Zimmer

It just can't sound like Elfman's "happy, jolly" music.

[Red 75]

No. I actually like a lot of his work, including Dark Knight Rises which I felt used the callbacks to the previous scores appropriately because stylistically the film was meant to be a combination of elements from those movies.

[Cantus Venti 13]

It's a good time, yes. Zimmer keeps on inventing and reinventing himself. As much as I absolutely adore his power anthem style, I'm glad he's also moved on to explore more ambient textures and hypnotic soundscapes.

The only reinvention he does is updating his sound library and putting a new cover on a CD with the same music.

He's still doing the same old music, the only difference is that his power anthems become shorter and he reads way too much into them.

Right, because THE THIN RED LINE, the BATMAN films, THE DA VINCI CODE, SHERLOCK HOLMES, INCEPTION are oh-so-full of 90s-style 'power anthems'.

The sound is very much the same. No progression at all. The Batman scores are as much power anthem scores as anything on Zimmer's record, the only difference is that they are shorter and that he had some ambient sounds thrown in.

I'm getting sick of people constantly referencing The Thin Red Line. It's not that fucking special.

You can reason your way into making Zimmer sound like God, but the truth is more apparent, as we know. I remember investing some time into Zimmer and the only thing I really liked from him was The Lion King. Most of his stuff sounds like a pop music background track made orchestral for film. Whether it's more varied than last time makes no difference, as it's still a pop music background track made orchestral for film.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I do love Hannibal, I still think it is a album

Great score.

[gkgyver 1,645]

@ Matt C

I like DaVinci Code very much. That is about it. By extension, I would have to say Angels and Demons, which is basically DvC repackaged.

[publicist 4,643]

Most of his stuff sounds like a pop music background track made orchestral for film. Whether it's more varied than last time makes no difference, as it's still a pop music background track made orchestral for film.

I think the pop angle is great...it's not the problem. Problems only occur when Zimmer needs to work in larger dramatic structures which require a certain musical operatic form to tell a story - those scores, be it GLADIATOR, be it LAST SAMURAI, be it KING ARTHUR, just do not work dramatically, IMHO and suffer from a much to short breath.

On the other hand, the quiet stillness of THIN RED LINE, the related HOUSE OF THE SPIRITS and several of his older scores like PAPER HOUSE or FOOLS OF FORTUNE, K2, MATCHSTICK MEN, DA VINCI CODE (the album arrangement), INCEPTION, LION KING and several others contain indeed very entertaining music...which sometimes is even inspired. But for every AT WORLD'S END, there are 20 KING ARTHUR's, HENRI 4's, CHILL FACTOR's etc., sadly.

[A24 4,338]

I'm getting sick of people constantly referencing The Thin Red Line. It's not that fucking special.

Most people aren't special, gkgyver. Okay, I tone it down a little. What I mean is, the problem with art is that if you go too far, if you are too bold, too cutting-edge, if you take too much risks, most people will no longer be able to follow the artist and you will lose connection with your audience. Only fellow artists or other like-minded will understand what you are trying to do.

Alex Cremerus

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Film composers are often not in the position of taking risks.

[A24 4,338]

That's mainsteam cinema for ya. It's too expensive so 'freedom' is limited.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Of course how many chances did John Williams ever take?

[publicist 4,643]

And what does it matter...he doesn't get paid for risk-taking.

[A24 4,338]

The Modernism of the 20th Century is over anyways. People no longer take LSD. The open-mindedness of the '60s and '70s is gone forever (or at least for a very long time)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Open mindedness?

If you need drugs to be open minded, it has no chance of ever going anywhere.

[A24 4,338]

I don't do drugs, but make no mistake, to free their mind, people have been taking drugs since the beginning of time, Steef. A lot of people need that 'bridge', something that helps them to break out of their conformist straitjackets. Perhaps today people take the wrong drugs, you know, the kind of drugs that makes them dance for 48 hours or feel they can conquer the world. I'm talking about the type of drugs that broadens our consciousness.

Alex

[publicist 4,643]

Since you can't buy open-mindedness in the grocery, drugs always seemed to help a lot. Not that i think the resident artists took more in the 60's than today. Only the economic realities changed - back then, there wasn't the whole focus of attention devoted to BO earnings of bad movies.

I am still surprised that LINCOLN, in this climate, seems to have real legs. It's not a testament that the movie is brilliant, but an encouragement that there are people out there who want movies with real content instead of shallow blockbusters.

[Incanus 5,715]

I don't truly hate Hans Zimmer but I have found that I have become nearly allergic to his brand of film music apart from few exceptions. Even though I try to be open minded about his music, it somehow finds new ways to underwhelm or grate.

[publicist 4,643]

Then you will be delighted that your new chance to change your opinion arises with the new Zimmer score for BBC's THE BIBLE

Maybe there's a prodigy intern who rises to the occasion?

[Uni 306]

I don't hate Zimmer musically. I hate the bastard personally.

Kidding . . . I'm kidding, folks.

I'm tickled by the timing of several recent posts that reflect some of the thoughts I wanted to bring up when I came trolling back around these parts. (That Mr. Cosman has been the genesis of most of these preemptive threads is ironic and a little frightening: either he's mellowed a bit, or I'm dancing closer to the edge than ever—and I find both possibilities equally likely. ) I was planning on dropping a few lines on the current state of filmusic anyway, and the subject of this current thread was going to be a central theme. I was going to go about it a little differently, though. I'd mention Zimmer and his like, lament the loss of leitmotif,and even pull a quote from a completely apocryphal source, Modern Film Scoring for Dummies:

"The purpose of the various orchestral sections have changed over time as well. The string section, for example, is no longer needed for establishing a general tonal canvas, and certainly isn't to be used for melody. No, the strings now represent your

rhythm

section. All you need to put together a top-shelf score these days is to have your strings play a constant staccato progression, accenting every fourth beat to establish the cadence. If you don't have the budget for a full orchestra, don't sweat it; just sample some stringy sounds off a different soundtrack and lay those down as your beat track. Let the horns blow a long, swelling, extended note from time to time to add 'color.'

Your woodwind people can fill time by turning the pages for everyone else (if you even need more than one page). You can save a few more bucks by firing everyone else.

Sample in some sound-effect bursts from time to time for variety . . . and

voilá!

Your score will be the talk of Cannes!"

Realistic? Maybe not. Exagerrated, even hyerbolic, sure. But it reflects honest feelings that have surfaced as I've been working my way through a sizeable stack of recent acquisitions (another factor that brought me back here, actually). And I don't think there's any denying that Zimmer is a major influence on this trend. What Williams did in bringing back the classical, full-orchestral sound to filmusic in the late 70s, Zimmer has done in sending it right back into relative obscurity again. He set the stage, and too many others—Klaus Badeldt, Steve Jablonsky, Eric Serra, Daft Punk, and the like—have been all too willing to play his disciples. The result is bland, lifeless, assembly-line drudge that, though it may work well enough for the film it accompanies (and, indeed, if often does), makes for a miserable listening experience apart from the movie.

This sense came to a head as I listened to the "Ultimate" version of The Dark Knight Rises. I'm a complete-score junkie, but long before I finished listening to all three CDs I felt like I'd been consigned along with Bruce Wayne to that hole-in-the-ground prison in the desert. There's just nothing there. There's no music in his music. It's cut 'n' paste spotting, and frankly, it's a waste of good potential. I think the main "theme"—can it even be called that?—makes a good representation of Wayne's obsession, particularly in the first film; but you can do obsession musically and still get around to other emotions during the course of a two-and-a-half hour film. (Consider how Williams handled Neary's obsession in Close Encounters. Now try to imagine those four notes being all you heard during the entire course of the movie. How much great music would we have missed?)

I mean you could drop the inception score in the dark knight rises trailer and be ok.

Forget the trailer. I'm convinced you could switch the entire scores for both films and hardly tell that anything had changed. (Try it, in fact. Put on one or the other movie, turn the sound down, and plug in the opposite score. I'd lay money on the table that the experience will be nearly identical.)

What I mean is, the problem with art is that if you go too far, if you are too bold, too cutting-edge, if you take too much risks, most people will no longer be able to follow the artist and you will lose connection with your audience. Only fellow artists or other like-minded will understand what you are trying to do.

Please, spare me the whole "the reason people persecute him is because he's too brilliant to be understood" thing—especially when it comes to the art of scoring films. I mean, the entire point of the endeavor is to create an emotional connection with the audience, to draw them more deeply through aural means into a story that's being told visually. This isn't an art form designed to appeal exclusively to "fellow artists or other like-minded" people. You're supposed to be reaching the masses. You may well be the Jackson Pollack of the music world, enthralling the elites with the way you randomly splatter notes on staff paper, but that doesn't mean I have to regard the resulting noise as some higher form of art. If a composer's gonna go Van Gogh on the music world, he should have the good class to cut off his own ears instead of making mine hurt.

Now . . . let me be clear that I'm not saying this is the complete picture of how I feel about Hans Zimmer. I do regard some of his work as outstanding (though I would note that a lot of his better stuff usually has a collaborator's name sharing space with his on the front cover). He's a capable guy. And that may be what's most frustrating of all, y'know? I don't look to Zimmer to give me the next Star Wars-esque masterpiece—but he has shown us he's able to create some excellent music. Why, then, are we made to settle for low-grade schlock from him so much of the time? Having proven that he can do extraordinary stuff, we can only assume that when he achieves less, he's chosing to achieve less. It's cutting corners. It's taking the easy road. It's just plain laziness, that's all.

So no, I don't hate Hans Zimmer, either personally or musically. But man, is he one exasperating guy. . . .

- Uni

[Brónach 1,302]

He's a capable guy. And that may be what's most frustrating of all, y'know? I don't look to Zimmerto give me the next Star Wars-esque masterpiece—but he has shown us he's able to create some excellent music. Why, then, are we made to settle for low-grade schlock from him so much of the time? Having proven that he can do extraordinary stuff, we can only assume that when he achieves less, he's chosing to achieve less. It's cutting corners. It's taking the easy road. It's just plain laziness, that's all.

So no, I don't hate Hans Zimmer, either personally or musically. But man, is he one exasperating guy. . .

This is just how I feel.

[KK 3,307]

Likewise. The man has composed great stuff in his career, so I find it very reasonable to be frustrated at the industry sludge he's been producing of late.

[A24 4,338]

I didn't know that film (as an art form) is all about denouncing oneself and only about pleasing the audience, Uni. Thanks for the info.

[Uni 306]

Glad I could help.

But of course, I didn't say any such thing about film as an art form. I said it about scoring films, which is a corollary form of art, and subordinate to the vision of the movie itself.

- Uni

[Giftheck 916]

I do regard some of his work as outstanding (though I would note that a lot of his better stuff usually has a collaborator's name sharing space with his on the front cover). He's a capable guy. And that may be what's most frustrating of all, y'know? I don't look to Zimmer to give me the next Star Wars-esque masterpiece—but he has shown us he's able to create some excellent music. Why, then, are we made to settle for low-grade schlock from him so much of the time? Having proven that he can do extraordinary stuff, we can only assume that when he achieves less, he's chosing to achieve less. It's cutting corners. It's taking the easy road. It's just plain laziness, that's all.

So no, I don't hate Hans Zimmer, either personally or musically. But man, is he one exasperating guy. . . .

I concur with this. But the problem doesn't just lie with Zimmer, it's with many in the industry. There once was a time when film music served as an accompaniment - meant to score, yes, but could also tell the story on its own. These days, take the film away, and the music left behind can be, and often is, quite bland. Zimmer falls into this trap all too often lately, especially when you consider some of his 90s work like The Lion King or Prince of Egypt.

[Uni 306]

I don't disagree with that at all. In fact, I'll take the next logical step: this doubtless has as much to do with directors these days as it does composers. You just don't see a Spielberg/Zemeckis/Lucas/Columbus level of interest in the musical element of movies these days. Peter Jackson is probably a latter-day exception, and there may be a few others, but for the most part I think newer directors are putting more of their focus into the visuals than the audios.

And to some degree I don't think it would be unreasonable to say composers like Zimmer are victims of this trend. If a director says he wants another assembly-line, synth-string clone, the stick-man doesn't have much choice but to go along. (Although we don't hear much about rejected Zimmer scores either, where he took things in a grand musical direction originally but the director absolutely forced him back to his usual habits, do we. . . ?)

- Uni

[Giftheck 916]

I don't disagree with that at all. In fact, I'll take the next logical step: this doubtless has as much to do with directors these days as it does composers. You just don't see a Spielberg/Zemeckis/Lucas/Columbus level of interest in the musical element of movies these days. Peter Jackson is probably a latter-day exception, and there may be a few others, but for the most part I think newer directors are putting more of their focus into the visuals than the audios.

And to some degree I don't think it would be unreasonable to say composers like Zimmer are victims of this trend. If a director says he wants another assembly-line, synth-string clone, the stick-man doesn't have much choice but to go along. (Although we don't hear much about rejected Zimmer scores either, where he took things in a grand musical direction originally but the director absolutely forced him back to his usual habits, do we. . . ?)

- Uni

Another good point. Perhaps some composers just feel that they shouldn't bother as much as they might if they were given absolute free reign because in the end their music might end up tampered with beyond their intentions. Just look at what Lucas did to the Star Wars Prequel scores, or what Cameron did to Horner's Avatar.

[Uni 306]

Just look at what Lucas did to the Star Wars Prequel scores, or what Cameron did to Horner's Avatar.

Which is pretty much exactly what Cameron did to Horner's Aliens, too. (Some guys never learn. . . !)

- Uni

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

To drunk to reed al these long posts

[indy4 155]

]Forget the trailer. I'm convinced you could switch the entire scores for both films and hardly tell that anything had changed. (Try it, in fact. Put on one or the other movie, turn the sound down, and plug in the opposite score. I'd lay money on the table that the experience will be nearly identical.)

I disagree. On an emotional level, there are certainly parts of the score that work well in both films. But the same is true for many of JWs scores. I think we have to realize that there's more to a score than emotional output--Zimmers TDK says something very different than Inception does. You've got the siren-like theme fr joker, versus the Edith Piaf based music from Inception for instance. True, some of the action music in one might feel alright in either film, but that doesn't mean it serves the same purpose in the overall story that either score aims to tell.

Saying they're interchangeable is like saying marions theme is interchangeable with Luke and leias theme--they may both fulfill the same basic emotional requirements, but you run into other problems (ie "Victory Celebration" in RotJ is based on Luke and leias theme, and absent the theme, the cue is less effective).