Star Wars Prequel Music General Discussion

[TownerFan 4,983]

22 hours ago, Will said:

TownerFan, I know you have some reservations about "personal taste," but I think I just have to come back to something I said earlier: I look at Star Wars a little like a book, so the story is at the center. I most value rich symbolism and complex storytelling. For me the acting, directing, etc. is only important to the film insofar as it is good enough to make the story interesting and give it the required impact. And I don't require much more.

 

You seem to look at it differently. You look at direction and acting as an art on its own and look at the fine details of those arts. You think the story is only a small part of Star Wars and you focus on the other things equally.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong in looking at the story/screenplay as the most important element. Star Wars offers rich nuances in that department and we all must recognize Lucas with the ability and the skill to come up with elements that touched something deep in the collective conciousness (i.e. the myth-making element JW too speaks about in the clip above). However, the cinematic elements are just too important for the final result to be considered just "added value". As I said before, Star Wars works best when all the elements coalesce into something powerful and unique.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with Maurizio

[artguy360 1,844]

Also, just my opinion, but the prequel scripts are bad. They are poorly written both in terms of dialogue and dramatic narrative. They include interesting locations and mythological implications, but as far as scripts go, they are quite bad. 

[Jay 37,372]

What happened to your avatar?

[Datameister 2,044]

2 hours ago, artguy360 said:

Also, just my opinion, but the prequel scripts are bad. They are poorly written both in terms of dialogue and dramatic narrative. They include interesting locations and mythological implications, but as far as scripts go, they are quite bad. 

 

Oh, the writing is horrendous. Lucas has never been much of a writer. He's a big-picture guy, a story guy. The level of control he had over the prequel screenplays was one of the biggest issues with those films. Hiring actual writers to write would have gone a long way toward producing films that achieved more consistent acclaim.

[Faleel 5,359]

And the one script that DID have a additional writer still sucked (the rumors that Carrie Fisher was involved with TPM don't count)  . 

[Will 2,215]

13 hours ago, artguy360 said:

Also, just my opinion, but the prequel scripts are bad. They are poorly written both in terms of dialogue and dramatic narrative. They include interesting locations and mythological implications, but as far as scripts go, they are quite bad. 

 

@Datameister

 

I'm no expert on scripts, but I don't have a problem with those of the prequels. The scripts cannot possibly be truly "bad," although there may well be mistakes I just don't really notice. And if the ring theory is true then these scripts have a lot of really incredible complexity beneath the surface that not many have picked up on yet. 

 

 

[Faleel 5,359]

I wonder how long until someone comes up with something similar for Batman and robin

[Faleel 5,359]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zuJsY1GX5tA&feature=youtu.be

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Yes the temp music was a neat tidbit in the latest episode of Oxygen.

[crumbs 14,318]

That fits amazingly well, great bit of insight into the temp. Would be cool to know what other classical pieces George used.

 

It's an edge that his films have musically over other films nowadays, even TFA, which temp with film music rather than classical music (probably explaining why modern films don't "breathe" as much, and jump from shot to shot and scene to scene with less fluidity).

 

 

[Will 2,215]

Could JW have actually heard the temp track? It's rather similar to his cue. Or maybe GL just told JW he wanted a string adagio?

 

7 minutes ago, crumbs said:

That fits amazingly well, great bit of insight into the temp. Would be cool to know what other classical pieces George used.

 

 

Yes, it would be super cool to have a "SW classical playlist"! I actually never even realized GL temped with classical stuff. For the record, TFA was temped with previous JW SW music. 

 

7 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

It's an edge that his films have musically over other films nowadays, even TFA, which temp with film music rather than classical music (probably explaining why modern films don't "breathe" as much, and jump from shot to shot and scene to scene with less fluidity).

 

I don't quite understand how classical music would make the scenes better. 

 

I could see how cutting a scene to an already-written musical cue, no matter what the music was, might make the scene more fluid, but I don't see how the choice of music that's edited to fit the picture on a temp track would make it more fluid. 

 

Could you explain?

[crumbs 14,318]

23 minutes ago, Will said:

Could JW have actually heard the temp track? It's rather similar to his cue. Or maybe GL just told JW he wanted a string adagio?

 

The Immolation Scene is too similar for him to not have heard it during the spotting or, at the very least, for George to have told him the piece (which was really all JW needed to know to see exactly what tone GL wanted for the sequence, which could've been scored a multitude of ways).

 

Of course JW makes the final cue entirely his own, adding an intangible musical layer of tragedy, unease and dissonance to the strings which marries with the visuals perfectly, as only John Williams can.

 

It's yet another example in a long list of examples of musical moments you cannot comprehend being improved upon in any way. It is note for note perfect; on first glance the cue is fairly "simplistic" relative to some of his action cues in the series, but if you read the sheet music for The Immolation Scene it is incredibly dense with complex orchestration. He's brilliant.

 

23 minutes ago, Will said:

I could see how cutting a scene to an already-written musical cue, no matter what the music was, might make the scene more fluid, but I don't see how the choice of music that's edited to fit the picture on a temp track would make it more fluid. 

 

Could you explain?

 

Mainly just because classical music is not written to conform to the constraints of images or cuts, to line up with shot changes or characters making an action. Classical music breathes and runs its own race.

 

Temping films with film music creates an edit which copies the rhythm and pace of the temp film music, forcing the composer into greater constraints so far as their ability to craft their own original score. They become more focused copying the rhythm of the temp than the texture of the temp. Adagio for Strings is a brilliant example of why GL's use of classical pieces works brilliantly for a classically trained composer like JW. He took the core idea of the temp track then extrapolated into a perfect cue for that scene.

[Will 2,215]

35 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Mainly just because classical music is not written to conform to the constraints of images or cuts, to line up with shot changes or characters making an action. Classical music breathes and runs its own race.

 

Temping films with film music creates an edit which copies the rhythm and pace of the temp film music, forcing the composer into greater constraints so far as their ability to craft their own original score. They become more focused copying the rhythm of the temp than the texture of the temp. Adagio for Strings is a brilliant example of why GL's use of classical pieces works brilliantly for a classically trained composer like JW. He took the core idea of the temp track then extrapolated into a perfect cue for that scene.

 

But doesn't a temp track have to be edited to conform with the images, whether it's classical or from a film score? Because then it seems that whatever classical piece chosen would undergo heavy editing, losing the "flow" you speak of. 

 

Or am I wrong on that? Is a classical piece that fits the mood of the scene just likely to be thrown onto the scene with little to no editing?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

I heard that George often times liked to edit the scene to the music itself, letting the music control the mood/pacing of a scene.

[Will 2,215]

4 hours ago, Manikin Skywalker said:

I heard that George often times liked to edit the scene to the music itself, letting the music control the mood/pacing of a scene.

 

Aaah, I see. Makes sense then why classical music would give a more natural flow. 

 

I wonder if, say, Spielberg has/ever could tell JW to write a cue just based on a description of the scene, and then he could actually edit the scene to JW's cue. Then you'd have the "flow" of classical music to some extent, but it would also be the final music, not temp track. 

 

I wonder what the end result would be. 

[Will 2,215]

On 11/10/2016 at 1:04 PM, Fennel Ka said:

 

 

Do you think this could actually possibly be the correct timings of the music to picture...

 

 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

That last one is actually my upload. I started the music exactly when Williams' music begins in the film, so I'm assuming it's the correct timing. Although, obviously, I wasn't involved production of the film, so I'm not 100% sure exactly when the temp music began and ended. But surprisingly, it does fit extremely well.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crumbs 14,318]

1 hour ago, BloodBoal said:

 

The first Star Wars score is basically Classical Music Greatest Hits Rearranged By John Williams!

 

Where's skyy38 when you need him?!

[Will 2,215]

11 hours ago, Manikin Skywalker said:

That last one is actually my upload. I started the music exactly when Williams' music begins in the film, so I'm assuming it's the correct timing. Although, obviously, I wasn't involved production of the film, so I'm not 100% sure exactly when the temp music began and ended. But surprisingly, it does fit extremely well.

 

Ah, okay. I love how the music fits with the scene of the ship taking off!

 

@Manikin Skywalker, did you make any edits to the music or did you let it play straight through? Btw I like your avatar!

 

The other video (Fennel Ka's?) seems to just try to match the general feel of how the temp music would have worked but not the specific timings. 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

On November 11, 2016 at 8:15 AM, Will said:

 

Aaah, I see. Makes sense then why classical music would give a more natural flow. 

 

I wonder if, say, Spielberg has/ever could tell JW to write a cue just based on a description of the scene, and then he could actually edit the scene to JW's cue. Then you'd have the "flow" of classical music to some extent, but it would also be the final music, not temp track. 

 

I wonder what the end result would be. 

 

There are some more adventurous pairings than Spielberg/Williams who do this often if not regularly.  The result is typically, at the very least, a film edited more logically than usual. 

[Will 2,215]

Just now, Prerecorded Briefing said:

 

There are some more adventurous pairings than Spielberg/Williams who do this often if not regularly.  The result is typically, at the very least, a film edited more logically than usual. 

 

Can you give me some examples?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

A trick he stole from Ennio!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

"The Immolation Scene" sounds more like "Goodbyes" from Amazing Stories: The Mission.

[Faleel 5,359]

7 hours ago, Will said:

 

Ah, okay. I love how the music fits with the scene of the ship taking off!

 

@Manikin Skywalker, did you make any edits to the music or did you let it play straight through? Btw I like your avatar!

 

The other video (Fennel Ka's?) seems to just try to match the general feel of how the temp music would have worked but not the specific timings. 

I personally disagree, I think the Film Score Media just sounds like the piece was just thrown over the footage without regard for the intended pain and Tragedy of the scene

Lets not forget that Adagio for Strings is much longer than Immolation Scene

[Will 2,215]

3 hours ago, Fennel Ka said:

I personally disagree, I think the Film Score Media just sounds like the piece was just thrown over the footage without regard for the intended pain and Tragedy of the scene

Lets not forget that Adagio for Strings is much longer than Immolation Scene

 

Well the sync points in the Film Score Media one line up rather impressively. And remember that the Immolation Scene cue is often rather subdued. It's tragic but more often subtly so. 

 

 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

11 hours ago, Will said:

 

Ah, okay. I love how the music fits with the scene of the ship taking off!

 

@Manikin Skywalker, did you make any edits to the music or did you let it play straight through? Btw I like your avatar!

 

The other video (Fennel Ka's?) seems to just try to match the general feel of how the temp music would have worked but not the specific timings. 

I didn't edit it at all, I let it play most of the way through. I'm assuming the music would have ended when it ends in the film, but I let it play through a little longer, since it matched up quite well.

[Will 2,215]

7 minutes ago, Manikin Skywalker said:

I didn't edit it at all, I let it play most of the way through. I'm assuming the music would have ended when it ends in the film, but I let it play through a little longer, since it matched up quite well.

 

Ah, so you think the music would have ended at 2:36? Makes sense. But it does fit really well with what comes immediately after -- particularly the sync at 2:55. Possibly just coincidence though, or maybe GL did let it go on longer. 

 

I can see how a director could fall in love with their temp track! This one works so well -- and I think it's pretty clear that Lucas edited to the music, at least partially. Amazing. 

 

Do we know any more pieces that were used as temp track in any of the SW films? @Fennel Ka? @crumbs?

[crumbs 14,318]

The temp tracks in New Hope are very well documented. There was a great Star Wars Oxygen podcast on all the different classical pieces used to temp the first film, and hearing how JW reconstituted pieces into his own score is pretty fascinating.

 

We haven't heard much else for the prequels though, apart from Adagio for Strings during the immolation scene. I'd expect the Order 66 sequence had a classical music temp in it, but it's anyone's guess what that was.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The scene was obviously temp-tracked with "Goodbyes" from Amazing Stories: The Mission,

[Faleel 5,359]

1 hour ago, Will said:

 

Well the sync points in the Film Score Media one line up rather impressively. And remember that the Immolation Scene cue is often rather subdued. It's tragic but more often subtly so. 

 

 

Sync points don't matter if the feel is all wrong

[Will 2,215]

12 hours ago, crumbs said:

The temp tracks in New Hope are very well documented. There was a great Star Wars Oxygen podcast on all the different classical pieces used to temp the first film, and hearing how JW reconstituted pieces into his own score is pretty fascinating.

 

We haven't heard much else for the prequels though, apart from Adagio for Strings during the immolation scene. I'd expect the Order 66 sequence had a classical music temp in it, but it's anyone's guess what that was.

 

Found this:

 

http://www.malonedigital.com/starwars.pdf

 

Quote

When editing a film, a temporary music score is often used to gain a feel for rhythm, pacing and to provide a composer with the mood a director desires to be conveyed in music. During editing of Star Wars, cues from King’s Row, The Adventures of Robin Hood, Ben-Hur, The Battle of Britain, Prince Valiant and The Bride of Frankenstein, together with classical music by Holst, Tchaikovsky, Dvořák, Bartók and Elgar, was either directly used or cited to communicate the right musical feelings. Williams saw the temporary music track as inspiration to develop his own swashbuckling music that embraced the brassy and heroic sound of film composer Erich Wolfgang Korngold’s 1930s and 40s films for Warner Brothers, in particular King’s Row.

 

And this photo caption on that same PDF...

 

Quote

X-Wings prepare for the trench run as Williams records his Walton (Battle of Britain) inspired cue with the London Symphony Orchestra. 

 

Also, from Rinzler Making of SW...

 

Quote

Before showing a cut of the film to John Williams, Lucas and Hirsch added to the temp track. The director had designed his film as a "silent movie," told primarily through its visuals and music, so great care was taken to obtain the right moods. "We used some stravisky, the flipside of The Rite of Spring," Hirsch remembers. "George said nobody ever uses that side of the record, so we used it for Threepio walking around in the desert. The Jawa music was from the same Stravinsky piece. We used music from Ivanhoe by Rózsa for the main title. George was talking about having a majority of the film set to music."

 

"George had listened to a lot of records and done a lot of research, and people had given him records," Burtt says. "He had picked out some material from Dvo?ák's New World Symphony for the end sequence of the great hall and the awards. He had chosen some of Bruckner’s Ninth Symphony for Luke's theme. We slowly built up temporary music tracks and mixed them in with the film, so we had a temporary version of the film with an essentially complete sound effects track and a patchwork music track that highlighted various moments in the picture. At this point Johnny Williams was brought in."

 

I'd be really interested in what the prequels were temped with. 

[crumbs 14,318]

I haven't seen this interview before, but I found this a fascinating answer from JW about why he feels his prequel scores sounded so different to the original trilogy, particularly why he pursued choral passages so heavily:

 

Such a logical explanation when you think about it. Basically, the films were so much less focused on character moments and so enhanced with action that he felt the standard orchestral textures he used in the OT would become exhausted and repetitive in the newer films (so he introduced the choir to add diversity to the overall soundscape of the saga).

[TownerFan 4,983]

About Williams' influences on the first Star Wars score, this article is a great read:

 

http://kitbashed.com/blog/the-score

[oierem 152]

20 hours ago, crumbs said:

I haven't seen this interview before, but I found this a fascinating answer from JW about why he feels his prequel scores sounded so different to the original trilogy, particularly why he pursued choral passages so heavily:

 

Such a logical explanation when you think about it. Basically, the films were so much less focused on character moments and so enhanced with action that he felt the standard orchestral textures he used in the OT would become exhausted and repetitive in the newer films (so he introduced the choir to add diversity to the overall soundscape of the saga).

 

What he says is that the choir was a way to add diversity to the soundscape due to the amount of music (and particularly loud/action music) that the films required. He says nothing about being less focused on characters.

 

Basically, in the first SW film, Lucas and Williams decided to have a 15 minute section without any music between the escape from the Death Star and the final battle, a breather between loud musical segments. That could be done in the 1970s, but not in the 1990s and 2000s.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed! Nowadays you need music all the time! Augmenting what's going on on the screen!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I want to say that the spotting of the Star Wars films was worse with each new film. Star Wars was perfectly spotted. Empire was over-scored and music was unused. Jedi was over-scored, but most of it was used. The prequels were so over-scored it was ridiculous, and they even padded them out with tracked music. One of the few moments I can remember in those film without music (I think there were Ben Burtt drums?) was the monster scene in the arena. It's one of the best scenes in the prequels.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No it wasn't!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Good job!

[crumbs 14,318]

The only reason there are any good scenes in the prequels is because of JW's music!

[Bilbo 3,709]

18 hours ago, Selina Kyle said:

I want to say that the spotting of the Star Wars films was worse with each new film. Star Wars was perfectly spotted. Empire was over-scored and music was unused. Jedi was over-scored, but most of it was used. The prequels were so over-scored it was ridiculous, and they even padded them out with tracked music. One of the few moments I can remember in those film without music (I think there were Ben Burtt drums?) was the monster scene in the arena. It's one of the best scenes in the prequels.

 

The podrace is the obvious one. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

 

Oh! There goes Williams' music!

[Giftheck 917]

Looks like the sheet music for TPM has leaked.

[Skelly 261]

 

We finally get a look at the cue numbers, for those of you who like that stuff.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Heh, "Lazer Fight"

[Arpy 4,145]

"Gas leak"  It was just a gas leak, not an intentionally deadly attack.

[Faleel 5,359]

Twas but a misunderstanding. 

[Skelly 261]

My favorite is "The Arrival Of Tatooine". It makes it seem as if the planet of Tatooine suddenly barged into the plot unannounced.

Actually, that is sort of what happened, so never mind.