Star Wars Disenchantment

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

14 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

That interview smacks of the apocryphal.

The part about Lucas knowing in '76 that Vader was Luke's father? Yeah. But as far as the business side goes, I've no reason to disbelieve him.

[Chen G. 3,950]

Just now, Mr. Hooper said:

The part about Lucas knowing in '76 that Vader was Luke's father? Yeah.

 

And about it being a nine-parter to begin with.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

And about it being a nine-parter to begin with.

I saw an interview with Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher, I think it was from '83, where Hamill talks about it being a 9-part saga with a prequel and sequel trilogy. I don't know if there's earlier evidence supporting this claim.

[Chen G. 3,950]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

I saw an interview with Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher, I think it was from '83, where Hamill talks about it being a 9-part saga with a prequel and sequel trilogy.

 

Well, yeah, that's what Lucas said Star Wars would beginning in 1979 and through the 1980s and early 1990s. Even as late as 2004, he'd slip up and mention it being nine films, and then of course reverted to that version in 2012.

 

For much of 1978 the official number was twelve episodes!

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

28 minutes ago, JTW said:

Yeah, probably they haven’t, but at least they’re telling their lead actors to shut the f about calling fans who criticize the sequel trilogy and Rey’s character, sexist.

 

Yeah I’m really not convinced they’re doing that. Both Kennedy and Johnson have seemed more than happy to accuse their audience of racism and sexism so far and I personally haven't seen any evidence of them backing down on that front.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

6 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

 

Yeah I’m really not convinced they’re doing that. Both Kennedy and Johnson have seemed more than happy to accuse their audience of racism and sexism so far and I personally haven't seen any evidence of them backing down on that front.

Not to mention the shill media still churning out articles and videos that unconditionally praise Disney/Lucasfilm and trash the naysayers.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

13 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Well, yeah, that's what Lucas said Star Wars would beginning in 1979 and through the 1980s and early 1990s. Even as late as 2004, he'd slip up and mention it being nine films, and then of course reverted to that version in 2012.

 

For much of 1978 the official number was twelve episodes!

 

He talked about it being 4 trilogies a couple of times around the release of Empire as well. It seems clear to me that we was never committed to a specific number of movies.

[Chen G. 3,950]

22 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

He talked about it being 4 trilogies a couple of times around the release of Empire as well. It seems clear to me that we was never committed to a specific number of movies.

 

My own understanding of the situation is the following:

 

March 1971-September 1975: Between Lucas first pursuing a space opera, and Star Wars taking the shape we know, Lucas keeps the prospect of multiple installments in the back of his mind.

 

September 1975-August 1977: In spite of making his drafts increasingly standalone, Lucas plans to retcon the ending should the film prove a success, as predictions show. He signs several actors and crew-members for a trilogy, which would naturally end with the defeat of the Empire. He also entertains doing a prequel of Ben's younger days.

 

August 1977- February 1978: Following the film's success, he starts gradually expanding his plans to "at least three or four more films." Cognizant of issues of actor availability, he still aims to start with a trilogy.

 

February 1978-April 1978: Lucas' ambitions extend to a twelve-film series. Outside of the initial trilogy, it is not concieved in sets of three films, but as an anthology of standalone adventures.

 

August 1978: Having turned Vader into Luke's father (Late March?), Lucas tries to fit the sequel into his twelve-film scheme, initially as Episode seven, alongside prequel trilogy about the Clone Wars (Episodes two-four) before deciding to scale down to either nine of six films. He labels the sequel "Episode Five." This is not announced publically until the release of the film.

 

Early 1981: Whether Lucas actually meant to make nine films - or just six and spoke of making nine to avoid telling fans he's halving the series - by this point, when he was sketching the third film, he had surely dispensed with any notion of a sequel trilogy, although he kept talking about it through the 1980s, early 1990s and intermittently as late as 2004.

 

2012: Preparing to sell the company to Disney, Lucas decides to turn the idea of the sequel trilogy to a reality to bolster the deal.

[Mattris 416]

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I don't think its a coincidence. Its just that I see the connection as more generic or "poetic", rather than literal and plot-oriented, as Mattris sees it.

 

Its just that they're both Sith music, and so OF COURSE they're going to be closely related. "Sith" here strictly in the sense of Dark Side Force-user.

 

I see it as too many notes in a row to be merely 'poetic'. All things considered -namely, the other musical references and inter-relatedness among the themes for Palpatine, Kylo Ren, and Rey... given meaning by the progression of the story; knowing and appreciating the proven mastery and skill of John Williams - the deliberate nature of this musical connection couldn't be more obvious to me.

 

Another example: Snoke's music in TFA and TLJ was all but identical  to the music for the opera scene in ROTS, a scene in which Palpatine spoke of creating life and cheating death. Snoke was revealed to have been a creation of Palpatine. This, of course, after The Emperor's Theme  was played note-for-note as Snoke tortured Rey in TLJ. Thoughts?

 

4 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

If I'm not mistaken, I recall that Lucas significantly cut his "director's fee" in exchange for merchandising rights, which seems to be a business-driven move.

 

It was a risk that paid off. Lucas wanted to be able to fund his growing business and produce his story more freely. He succeeded unconventionally.

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

My own understanding of the situation is the following:

 

Regarding George Lucas' plan for Star Wars, you seem to have taken into account only what was published about it and what the man said publicly... and have assumed a great many things based only on these findings. Careful not to confuse them with fact, his true intentions, or the insight into the story that can be garnered from its literal words.

[bored 309]

I think it's more like John Williams was making connections that he thought could have been plausible. An example being Rey's Theme's numerous connections to many other themes, not just Palpatine's such as Vader, Luke, or the force, and Snoke's music being deliberately attributed to either Palpatine or Plagueis, because he wasn't sure what his relation was to other characters. Kylo's theme always sounded like an offshoot of Vader's theme to me before Palpatine, and the connection there is far more obvious in the film. He was trying to cover his bases and happened to get lucky by the end. Not that Williams isn't a genius overall.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

I think he just wrote Star Wars music, and many of the other themes also seem to be connected.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

On 2/2/2024 at 3:11 AM, Mattris said:

I do 'know so much more about Star Wars than others', as I'm continually proving.

 

Your overconfidence is your weakness.

 

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Careful not to confuse them with fact, his true intentions, or the insight into the story that can be garnered from its literal words.

 

Are there any other kind?

[Mattris 416]

On 04/02/2024 at 5:32 PM, bored said:

I think it's more like John Williams was making connections that he thought could have been plausible. An example being Rey's Theme's numerous connections to many other themes, not just Palpatine's such as Vader, Luke, or the force, and Snoke's music being deliberately attributed to either Palpatine or Plagueis, because he wasn't sure what his relation was to other characters. Kylo's theme always sounded like an offshoot of Vader's theme to me before Palpatine, and the connection there is far more obvious in the film. He was trying to cover his bases and happened to get lucky by the end. Not that Williams isn't a genius overall.

 

First of all, elements (musical or narratively) "more obvious in the film" to you than others is not a relevant to the overall interpretation of the story and its score. Everything counts, whether you noticed it or not.

 

You're saying that John Williams 'covered his bases and happened to get lucky by the end'? He was told basically nothing by the Star Wars writers and decided to guess where the characters/story might go, film-to-film, incorporating specific inter-related musical elements into multiple themes and cues throughout the sequel trilogy... all of which can be tied to The Emperor's Theme in multiple ways. The trilogy concludes with Palpatine taking credit for a great many things. And you think it was all happenstance?  What an absurd theory to mask your underestimation and ignorance!

 

The simplest explanation is that there was always a plan, one told to John Williams so he could do his job properly.

 

On 04/02/2024 at 5:37 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

I think he just wrote Star Wars music, and many of the other themes also seem to be connected.

 

Perhaps because that was the intent.

 

On 04/02/2024 at 5:51 PM, Nick1Ø66 said:

Your overconfidence is your weakness.

 

Regarding my interpretation of Star Wars - supported by factual/canonical evidence - I have no weakness.

 

On 04/02/2024 at 5:51 PM, Nick1Ø66 said:

Are there any other kind?

 

Yes, other 'findings' include the contents of the musical scores and the literary sources from which George Lucas drew inspiration.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

8 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Perhaps because that was the intent.

 

Yes, I think it's intentional that many of the themes have similarities. It's part of how JW creates a distinct Star Wars sound.

[Datameister 2,044]

No one tell him about Ludlow...

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

You mean the new character that will pop up in ep. X?

[Mattris 416]

6 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Yes, I think it's intentional that many of the themes have similarities. It's part of how JW creates a distinct Star Wars sound.

 

Statements like that are vague and dismissive of these very real musical connections, connections that link directly to how the story unfolded. They're much more than 'similar'. All of them considered, they formulate strong evidence of deliberate design... evidence that there was a plan for the sequel trilogy.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

So what's the reason behind March of the Resistance being partially a variation on the main title (Luke's) theme?

[greenturnedblue 372]

Why does Rose's theme have connections with both Anakin's theme and the Force theme? And why is Finn's confession a direct lift of Talks of Podracing? Or the March of the Resistance having connections to the march of the trade federation?

 

The only possible explanation is that these connections are intentional. But what is the meaning of them? Will Rose turn out to be Anakin's long lost sister be revealed in Episode X? That would really tie the saga together. Was Anakin's podracer reincarnated as Finn? Will the Resistance turn out to be a front for Nute Gunray's latest taxation scheme? the "deliberate design" is obvious

[Chen G. 3,950]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

So what's the reason behind March of the Resistance being partially a variation on the main title (Luke's) theme?

 

It saved Williams some time! 

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

So what's the reason behind March of the Resistance being partially a variation on the main title (Luke's) theme?

 

Just another example of the deliberate connectedness of the Star Wars themes, both musically and narratively.

 

45 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

Why does Rose's theme have connections with both Anakin's theme and the Force theme? And why is Finn's confession a direct lift of Talks of Podracing? Or the March of the Resistance having connections to the march of the trade federation?

 

The only possible explanation is that these connections are intentional. But what is the meaning of them? Will Rose turn out to be Anakin's long lost sister be revealed in Episode X? That would really tie the saga together. Was Anakin's podracer reincarnated as Finn? Will the Resistance turn out to be a front for Nute Gunray's latest taxation scheme? the "deliberate design" is obvious

 

I hope you're enjoying the few 'laughs'. Looking back, you'll eventually realize that I knew what you didn't: All things in this story are connected in some way... some things/characters more strongly than others.

[greenturnedblue 372]

Yeah, so, what do the connections I mention represent?

 

I haven't gone on a years long journey of enlightenment, so I'm not smart enough to figure it out on my own 

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

16 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Just another example of the deliberate connectedness of the Star Wars themes, both musically and narratively.

 

Only musically, you mean.

[Sweeping Strings 2,364]

10 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

And you think it was all happenstance? What an absurd theory to mask your underestimation and ignorance!

 

This is why you ask 'What do you think it all means?', isn't it? So you can 'lord it over' others here and come out with this sort of pompous, condescending shit when they're (according to you) wrong. 

Here's an unambiguous request for you - fuck off.  

[JTN 2,047]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

I hope you're enjoying the few 'laughs'. Looking back, you'll eventually realize that I knew what you didn't: All things in this story are connected in some way... some things/characters more strongly than others.

 

[Bespin 8,484]

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

26 minutes ago, Bespin said:

"Oh, I hate you."

 

[Bespin 8,484]

- I Know.

[Mattris 416]

On 05/02/2024 at 3:11 AM, greenturnedblue said:

Yeah, so, what do the connections I mention represent?

 

I haven't gone on a years long journey of enlightenment, so I'm not smart enough to figure it out on my own 

 

Oh, I know you aren't. But I can offer you a bit of insight into the examples you noted.

 

In this story, the Force works through all things, including people like Anakin and Rose.

Finn's Confession & Talks of Podracing: "He was meant to help you."

March of the Resistance & March of the Trade Federation: Marches for groups certain they were doing the right thing. (They really weren't.)

 

These connections were intentional, though I do not share your specific theories.

 

On 05/02/2024 at 3:22 AM, Jurassic Shark said:

Only musically, you mean.

 

Narratively, as well. What narrative elements do you think I perceive that weren't planned or are not present throughout the sequels or the Saga, in general?

 

On 05/02/2024 at 4:26 AM, Sweeping Strings said:

This is why you ask 'What do you think it all means?', isn't it? So you can 'lord it over' others here and come out with this sort of pompous, condescending shit when they're (according to you) wrong. 

Here's an unambiguous request for you - fuck off.  

 

It's not like others aren't being pompous, dismissive, and condescending toward me. Am I not allowed to respond in kind?

 

The facts and evidence support my position, theories, and overall assessment regarding the state of Star Wars. I was right before about some pretty major things. Logically, I'll continue to be proven right.

 

I think I'll stay and watch it all play out.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

Why do Count Dooku and Lucius Malfoy share the same motif I wonder? 🤔

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Because they’re the same character as will be revealed in Episode XII when “somehow” Malfoy will return…

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

23 minutes ago, Mattris said:

What narrative elements do you think I perceive that weren't planned or are not present throughout the sequels or the Saga, in general?

 

I don't think about that. 

[greenturnedblue 372]

23 minutes ago, Mattris said:

In this story, the Force works through all things, including people like Anakin and Rose.

Finn's Confession & Talks of Podracing: "He was meant to help you."

March of the Resistance & March of the Trade Federation: Marches for groups certain they were doing the right thing. (They really weren't.)

 

Is that all you can tell me? Look a bit deeper into your crystal ball, surely there is a deeper connection than what you have come up with.

 

Otherwise, you imply that because Rose's theme has a connection to the Force theme, Rose has a stronger connection to the Force then other characters whose theme does not have such a connection, like Yoda, Qui Gon, or Mace Windu who did not even have a theme. That obviously cannot be the case. 

 

I really expected a deeper understanding from you than to state the obvious, that the only musical similarities between the March of the Resistance and Trade Federation March is that they are "both marches for groups certain they were doing the right thing". I could've told you that, and my understanding of Star Wars is nowhere near as comprehensive as yours!

 

[Datameister 2,044]

My current theory: Mattris still hates Disney-era Star Wars and the people behind it, just like he talked about in the pre-TROS days. At some point he just decided it would be more fun to troll everyone by caricaturing the folks he'd probably describe as Lucasfilm apologists. You know, offer the most deliberately far-fetched ideas with an air of enlightened superiority, in order to lampoon those who defend the ST.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

My current theory: Do not theorize on the motivations of Mattris, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth: there is no Mattris.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Wouldn’t it be funny if when the next batch of movies starts Mattris were to jump right back on the hate wagon as if he never made any of these theories in the first place?

[Giftheck 917]

Reading through the thread, my theory is that what Mattris calls 'enlightenment' is the result of smoking some pretty strong stuff to cope with the incomprehension at why the ST was so bad.

 

Companies spend a fortune on anti-drug PSAs, hiring people like Michael Jordan, when they could save money and just link to this thread instead 😂

[JTN 2,047]

And it’s all about a dead film franchise that’s owned by Disney. Honestly the Star Wars cinematic saga ended in 1983, nothing new has happened to the story since.

[Trope 527]

A question for @Mattris

 

Do you believe that John Williams planned out the entire thematic/motific structure of the 3 trilogies that we know of (and the 4th trilogy that you know of) back when he was first scoring Star Wars in 1977, in the same way George Lucas and Lucasfilm planned out the entire overall plot of the saga?

 

And if so, how do you explain the absence of The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme) in Star Wars - Episode IV: A New Hope, but its presence all throughout the prequels, which are set canonically BEFORE A New Hope?

 

I had simply assumed it was because in 1977 John Williams hadn't conceived of Darth Vader as being as significant a character as he eventually turned out to be in later films, and hence only wrote the Imperial motif... Until 3 years later in The Empire Strikes Back when Vader, due to his increased importance in the plot of the film (and proceeding films) required a more prominant/memorable theme. But perhaps there's a deeper cinematic/musical reason that you could share with us?

[Mattris 416]

9 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I don't think about that. 

 

Then you made a mistake to correct me. I meant what I said. The fact is, I've been referencing "the deliberate connectedness of the Star Wars themes, both musically and narratively" for years now. I'm noticing and sharing with you what you missed.

 

9 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Is that all you can tell me? Look a bit deeper into your crystal ball, surely there is a deeper connection than what you have come up with.

 

Otherwise, you imply that because Rose's theme has a connection to the Force theme, Rose has a stronger connection to the Force then other characters whose theme does not have such a connection, like Yoda, Qui Gon, or Mace Windu who did not even have a theme. That obviously cannot be the case. 

 

I really expected a deeper understanding from you than to state the obvious, that the only musical similarities between the March of the Resistance and Trade Federation March is that they are "both marches for groups certain they were doing the right thing". I could've told you that, and my understanding of Star Wars is nowhere near as comprehensive as yours!

 

It's all I'm willing to tell you. Can you blame me? Why should I tell you more?

 

I am not implying that "Rose has a stronger connection to the Force then other characters whose theme does not have such a connection". Could the themes for Yoda and Qui-Gon have a connection to the Force theme that you haven't noticed? Nothing seems to be "obvious" to those who doubt, dismiss, and underestimate so much... those like yourself.

 

What you couldn't have told me is that, in Star Wars, all of the characters and groups were certain they were doing the right thing. They were all  wrong.

 

8 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

My current theory: Do not theorize on the motivations of Mattris, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth: there is no Mattris.

 

Rest assured, I'm very real. I expect those who come here to troll me will think of me when it  happens.  

 

7 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Wouldn’t it be funny if when the next batch of movies starts Mattris were to jump right back on the hate wagon as if he never made any of these theories in the first place?

 

That would be funny. Regardless of what Lucasfilm does, I'll never let go of the theories I've substantiated.

 

2 hours ago, Giftheck said:

Reading through the thread, my theory is that what Mattris calls 'enlightenment' is the result of smoking some pretty strong stuff to cope with the incomprehension at why the ST was so bad.

 

So bad... because?

 

40 minutes ago, Trope said:

A question for @Mattris

 

Do you believe that John Williams planned out the entire thematic/motific structure of the 3 trilogies that we know of (and the 4th trilogy that you know of) back when he was first scoring Star Wars in 1977, in the same way George Lucas and Lucasfilm planned out the entire overall plot of the saga?

 

And if so, how do you explain the absence of The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme) in Star Wars - Episode IV: A New Hope, but its presence all throughout the prequels, which are set canonically BEFORE A New Hope?

 

I had simply assumed it was because in 1977 John Williams hadn't conceived of Darth Vader as being as significant a character as he eventually turned out to be in later films, and hence only wrote the Imperial motif... Until in The Empire Strikes Back when Vader, due to his increased importance in the plot of the film (and proceeding films) required a more prominant/memorable theme. But perhaps there's a deeper cinematic/musical reason that you could share with us?

 

No, I don't believe that John Williams planned out the entire thematic/motific structure of the 3 trilogies and beyond. I suspect George Lucas told his composer enough so that he could do his job properly, that is, compose the scores and themes so that things would make sense in 'the end'.

 

My thinking is that the presence of such a prominent theme for Darth Vader in the original film would have been detrimental to its content and overall tone... what certainly felt like the start of a Hero's Journey. In the sequel, the obsession and menace of Vader is made that much more impactful with his new, memorable theme. As we know, the prequels showed the transformation of Anakin into Vader. The theme we knew had to feature.

[JTN 2,047]

49 minutes ago, Trope said:

A question for @Mattris

 

[Trope 527]

32 minutes ago, Mattris said:

No, I don't believe that John Williams planned out the entire thematic/motific structure of the 3 trilogies and beyond. I suspect George Lucas told his composer enough so that he could do his job properly, that is, compose the scores and themes so that things would make sense in 'the end'.

 

My thinking is that the presence of such a prominent theme for Darth Vader in the original film would have been detrimental to its content and overall tone... what certainly felt like the start of a Hero's Journey. In the sequel, the obsession and menace of Vader is made that much more impactful with his new, memorable theme. As we know, the prequels showed the transformation of Anakin into Vader. The theme we knew had to feature.

Very interesting. This is a completely valid answer!

 

If I could inquire further, how might you explain the Imperial March playing as clone Darth Sidious uses the force to raise the 10 billion Star Destroyers that he conjured out of the surface of the hidden Sith planet Exegol in Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker?

[Mattris 416]

Palpatine offered Kylo "a new Empire". Scoring the shots of the Imperial Star Destroyers with the Imperial March makes sense.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Then you made a mistake to correct me. I meant what I said. The fact is, I've been referencing "the deliberate connectedness of the Star Wars themes, both musically and narratively" for years now. I'm noticing and sharing with you what you missed.

 

I'm not thinking about what narrative elements you perceive that weren't planned.

[Mattris 416]

You're clearly not thinking much at all.

 

I said:  "Just another example of the deliberate connectedness of the Star Wars themes, both musically and narratively."

 

You responded:  "Only musically, you mean."

 

I meant both, as I said.

[Trope 527]

I don't know if I'm losing my mind, or undergoing some kind of spiritual awakening ("There has been an awakening, have you felt it?" - Supreme Leader Snoke), but Mattris is making more sense than ever before; I feel like I'm starting to see the light! ("The light... it's always been there. It will guide you." - Maz Kanata)

 

I must go now and pray to my Darth Vader action figure to remove all doubt and scepticism, and grant me to see the full glory of Star Wars so that I may share its beauty with others ("Someday I will be the most powerful Jedi ever." - Anakin Skywalker)

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

4 hours ago, Mattris said:

You're clearly not thinking much at all.

 

@Jurassic Shark

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

3 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

 

@Jurassic Shark

 

Did you say anything? I'm too busy not thinking*. 

 

 

 

 

*about unimportant stuff.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]