John Williams' DRACULA - MUSIC ONLY discussion

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

6 minutes ago, crumbs said:

It's hard to believe he was really only finding his feet as a composer when he wrote this

 

I'd say he was already a very experienced film composer.

[crumbs 14,317]

Not until he had Empire and Raiders under his belt had he really solidified his position as a true master of his craft IMO. Obviously that doesn't take away from the masterful scores he was writing in the mid-70s. Jaws, Star Wars and Close Encounters alone are masterpieces.

[Incanus 5,715]

 

Just now, crumbs said:

Not until he had Empire and Raiders under his belt had he really solidified his position IMO.

I think the 1970's really solidified his position with the big hits like Jaws and Star Wars. By 1980's Williams was already an extremely well established film composer in Hollywood.

[crumbs 14,317]

I guess it's all relative when talking about things that happened before I was born. I just look at that 5 year period from Jaws onwards where he really solidified himself as a genius with each new score. Dracula came at the tail end of that period where he was really just hitting his strides with each new score.

 

In the grand scheme of things this was still very early in his film composing career, is what I was trying to convey. Four decades ago! 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

There are many older fans out there who are 100% completely dismissive of all Williams scores after the 70s.  They definitely exist.

[mstrox 6,651]

Yeah, several of them at least on FSM.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I remember I once got into a brief Twitter argument, back in the days when I was on social media, with this dude named West Anthony and he just refused to acknowledge or care that for later generations the scores to Jurassic Park and Harry Potter were just as important.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

Not until he had Empire and Raiders under his belt had he really solidified his position IMO.

 

But do we know for sure that JW wears belts?

[Jay 37,368]

4 hours ago, crumbs said:

It's hard to believe he was really only finding his feet as a composer when he wrote this

 

Wha? He was 47 years old!

[crumbs 14,317]

I elaborated above. It was just a poor choice of words.

 

7 hours ago, crumbs said:

In the grand scheme of things this was still very early in his film composing career, is what I was trying to convey. Four decades ago!  

 

 

[Jay 37,368]

He was over 20 years into his composing career when he wrote Dracula!

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

Try again, crumbs!

 

[publicist 4,643]

7 hours ago, Incanus said:

I think the 1970's really solidified his position with the big hits like Jaws and Star Wars. By 1980's Williams was already an extremely well established film composer in Hollywood.

 

By 1974. 

[crumbs 14,317]

Geez, you guys are relentless. Where someone can write an entire post specifically on the subject matter yet everyone gets hung up on one poorly worded sentence and ignores the rest. 

 

Never change JWFan. 😑

[Holko 9,526]

Um... I love how different the unreleased buildup of the extended Love Scene is!

[Jay 37,368]

Earlier when I said "The Night Journey (Film Version)" matched the film's edit of bouncing between the Original and Revised, I was remembering wrong.  It's clearly just the Revised version, IE, "Night Journeys" like the OST just without choir.

[Holko 9,526]

Typo!

 

And comparing the two Night Journeys's, there's a tiny time difference between them, so tiny bits were snipped fom the OST (or some speed trickery going on), but yes, they're clearly the same cue.

[crumbs 14,317]

I still haven't listened to disc 2. Trying to ration out my Williams releases until Potter arrives

What's the most significantly different mix/take I should look out for? 

[Jay 37,368]

16 hours ago, Holko said:

And comparing the two Night Journeys's, there's a tiny time difference between them, so tiny bits were snipped fom the OST (or some speed trickery going on), but yes, they're clearly the same cue.

Williams always be trimmin' bars for his OST programs

[Holko 9,526]

8 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I still haven't listened to disc 2. Trying to ration out my Williams releases until Potter arrives

 

What's the most significantly different mix/take I should look out for? 

 

 

 

Choir in Night Journeys.

 

Disc 1 sounds lightly muffled in some places (Love Journey, End Titles) while Disc 2 is more treble-y in those cases, but those are the sources, not intentional take or mix differences of course.

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Williams always be trimmin' bars for his OST programs

In these cases where it's some shortened notes or silences no normal human ear picks it up even when they're lined up, I don't mind at all. Stuff like Desert Chase, though...

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

13 hours ago, crumbs said:

Not until he had Empire and Raiders under his belt had he really solidified his position as a true master of his craft IMO. Obviously that doesn't take away from the masterful scores he was writing in the mid-70s. Jaws, Star Wars and Close Encounters alone are masterpieces.

 

You forgot Superman - The Movie.

[King Mark 3,631]

To me JW became JW with JAWS

 

He was already on top of his game in 1977

[Brundlefly 2,385]

8 hours ago, Jay said:

Earlier when I said "The Night Journey (Film Version)" matched the film's edit of bouncing between the Original and Revised, I was remembering wrong.  It's clearly just the Revised version, IE, "Night Journeys" like the OST just without choir.

Thank God, I was already startled about this questionable choice.

[Jay 37,368]

 

15 hours ago, crumbs said:

I still haven't listened to disc 2. Trying to ration out my Williams releases until Potter arrives

 

What's the most significantly different mix/take I should look out for? 

 

Only Main Title, Night Journeys, and To Scarborough are any different (other than being edited down)

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

18 hours ago, Jay said:

Earlier when I said "The Night Journey (Film Version)" matched the film's edit of bouncing between the Original and Revised, I was remembering wrong.  It's clearly just the Revised version, IE, "Night Journeys" like the OST just without choir.

That's what I thought...it sounded the same. Glad to have it then!

[Brundlefly 2,385]

It wouldn't make sense to present version A and a mixture of version A and B, because it's in the film and therewith excluding a section of version B in the new mix.

[Jay 37,368]

Right.  The way its all handled is the right way to do it

[Holko 9,526]

Absolutely.

[Jay 37,368]

I realized I never posted this

 

 

 

 

Here's the Chronological order of Dracula using the Varese DE for those who prefer listening that way.  I included Williams' original cue titles in squiggle brackets in case you feel like renaming your files.

 

 

01 01 Main Title & Storm Sequence (Film Version) 5:19 {Main Title (Revised) / The Storm}
02 02 Meeting in the Cave 3:32 {To The Cave}
03 03 A Quick Change 1:32
04 04 Dracula Appears 0:56
05 05 Casting a Spell and The Visitation 4:35 {Casting A Spell / The Night Visitor}
06 06 Give Me Your Loyalty 1:23
07 08B [1:22-end] 1:10 {Mina's Death}
08 07 Jonathan Pays a Call 3:05 {Jonathan Pays A Call / On The Road}
09 08A [0:00-1:22] 1:22 {Mina's Funeral}
10 09 The Dining Room 1:24
11 12B [0:26-end] The Asylum 0:48 {Disorder In The Asylum}
12 10 First Kiss 2:08 {The First Kiss}
13 11 Dracula Meets Van Helsing 2:44
14 12A [0:00-0:26] Grave Trampling 0:26
15 13 Night Journeys (Film Version) 5:20 {The Love Scene (Revised)}
16 14 Mina Impaled 1:47
17 15 Van Helsing Confronts Dracula 3:16
18 16 Van Helsing’s Solution 3:07
19 17 Into the Crypt 2:20
20 18 The Attack 1:25 {The Bat Attack}
21 19 The Night Visitor 2:17 {Lucy Attacks}
22 20 Waiting for Dracula 2:32
23 21 The Capture of Lucy 3:04
24 22 To Scarborough (Film Version) 2:48
25 23 Dracula’s Death (Extended Version) 4:04 {The Death of Dracula}
26 24 End Titles 3:35

 

Alternates

27 25 Main Title & Storm Sequence (Alternate) 1:58 {Main Title / Badham Ending}
28 26 The Love Scene (Extended Version) 4:40 {The Love Scene}

 

Additional alternate material found only on the OST program
29 OST 1 Main Title & Storm Sequence 5:11 {0:00-1:14 is a different take of the Alternate Main title than used on disc 1 track 25}
30 OST 3 To Scarborough 2:43 {Different take than what was used in the film/disc 1}
31 OST 5 Night Journeys 5:12 {Features choir that was not used in the film/disc 1}

 

 

I've also gone and added a DE breakdown into my Dracula spreadsheet

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16kLTORYvi9-HH76JA_WkHBVC2XzoYfMKkml8Rj0e_MI/

[Holko 9,526]

I'm not too miffed about it, the Varese assembly is great, but any particular reason the source cues were not included, especially the apparently Williams-written Pre-Dinner Music? Did Williams veto them, were they not on the sources or did Mike decide they were a hindrance to the experience and would feel tacked on? I'd understand and accept either of these, but a voice inside me just keeps whispering "unreleased Williams source, unreleased WIlliams source"...

[crumbs 14,317]

28 minutes ago, Holko said:

I'm not too miffed about it, the Varese assembly is great, but any particular reason the source cues were not included, especially the apparently Williams-written Pre-Dinner Music? Did Williams veto them, were they not on the sources or did Mike decide they were a hindrance and would feel tacked on?

 

Reading between the lines, Williams vetoed them (as with the Schindler's List source music, although the source music in that score wasn't composed by him).

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

I'm not too miffed about it, the Varese assembly is great, but any particular reason the source cues were not included, especially the apparently Williams-written Pre-Dinner Music? Did Williams veto them, were they not on the sources or did Mike decide they were a hindrance to the experience and would feel tacked on? I'd understand and accept either of these, but a voice inside me just keeps whispering "unreleased Williams source, unreleased WIlliams source"...

It will be included on the expansion of Dracula 2 & 3 by another composer.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The cues could have been put on the bonus section so maybe they didn't find the tapes.

[Jay 37,368]

The source cues were on the sames tapes as all the score cues.  They are all preserved digitally and "future proofed" now like the rest of the score.

 

Hopefully they can get released some day along with with all the other source music from all the other scores Williams has vetoed.... in the future.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

So we'll have to buy practically all the expanded scores again in some years, but then they'll probably only be released on cassette.

[crumbs 14,317]

Is there a clip somewhere of the source music in question? 

 

Of course, I might be happier not knowing. 😛

[Holko 9,526]

The one JW wrote is a more 1900s waltz plaing on a gramophone, terribly distorted and buried in-film.

La Cumparsita is a tango, and Wiener Wald is a Strauss waltz. What's interesting about the latter is it again starts as terrible gramophone quality in-film, then transitions to a more clear, real quality.

 

They're all pretty short, especially the JW one, if that's basically all that was recorded, it's no biggie at all, but we know what the Jaws source cues are like.

But they're all found and archived, that's the most important. 

[Holko 9,526]

I love this phase of getting to know a score. One listen per day (or two days) until I start being able to tell the less prominent tracks apart and notice some little things like the Investigation motif already beginning in Dracula Meets Van Helsing.

[King Mark 3,631]

Seems like a weird motif for Van Helsing. It's a GREAT motif but I'm not sure it fits Van Helsing.Sounds more like villains motif

[Holko 9,526]

Well it's more for his process of realising Dracula is a vampire, I purposefully referred to it as the Investigation motif.

[King Mark 3,631]

yeah the main theme is more of a "romantic" theme for  Dracula and this one refers more to his creepy "vampire" side

[King Mark 3,631]

The little traveling motif at the end of Give me your Loyalty is cool. Reminds me of Monsignor

[crumbs 14,317]

That motif in Van Helsing's Solution is so bloody good! Instantly memorable. You could build a whole score around that little idea but Williams only needs it for one cue! 

 

Love the way it develops out of Van Helsing's motif, as if the two are dancing around one another. I'd need to listen again but isn't the latter motif featured in counterpoint? 

[Corellian2019 386]

On 11/30/2018 at 8:23 AM, Jay said:

The source cues were on the sames tapes as all the score cues.  They are all preserved digitally and "future proofed" now like the rest of the score.

 

Hopefully they can get released some day along with with all the other source music from all the other scores Williams has vetoed.... in the future.

 

I'm thanking my lucky stars that he agreed to release all the source music recorded for CETK!

[crumbs 14,317]

I don't get why sometimes he doesn't care about the source music being released but other times he vetoes it. It must just be a case by case basis because it's hard to understand his rationale. I'd understand if he drew a line at source music he conducted but didn't actually compose, but even that's inconsistent. 

 

It's like Spielberg being selective about releasing deleted scenes.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Just listened to the complete score for the first time.

 

The sound quality is immensely improved, but in comparison to many other recordings from the late 70s it is still pretty weak.

 

The score is much more restrained and darker in complete form.

 

I like the organ overlays(?) in "To Scarborough" and I've been waiting for "Casting a Spell and The Visitation" (1:00-1:10) for so long!

[Holko 9,526]

I only realised while doing the iso score videos - the Investigation motif was on the OST all along, the demented piano plays it early in Mina Impaled, part of The Bat Attack.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

3 minutes ago, Holko said:

I only realised while doing the iso score videos - the Investigation motif was on the OST all along, the demented piano plays it early in Mina Impaled, part of The Bat Attack.

 

Yeah, I noticed that too when I first listened to the complete score a few weeks ago! Was tempted to bring it up here, but figured it'd been brought up already.

[Romão 2,274]

I've been enjoying this score immensely, the complete presentation really opens it up and reveals a whole slew of wonderful little motifs. I'm particularly fond of rising string figure that was heard only once in the original OST, but that in the complete score presentation gets another rendition. You can hear at the 2:36 mark of track 2 Meeting in the Cave, and again at the 3:59 mark in track 5 Casting a Spell and the Visitation.

 

Really wonderful score. Along the Lost World, one of the best examples of an expansion really improving my appreciation of a score

[rough cut 1,714]

It’s been so long since I saw the movie... A 1900s waltz from JW, I can’t remember picking it up in the movie... But I want to hear it! It’s a bit sad it’s not on the DE.

 

Regarding source cues, I understand JW’s reluctance to not have them released but so much time has passed since the movie was scored and released... I wish he’d embrace a more open minded relationship to these mature scores.

 

Knowing he doesn’t want it released, it seems almost disrespectful to wish for a release... in the future. : /