What's so great about Jerry Goldsmith?

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

Not funny, Richard.

[bollemanneke 3,352]

I have no idea what's so great bout Goldsmith.

[publicist 4,643]

And Goldsmith doesn't care about you, other.

[Edmilson 7,471]

Do you guys think John Williams is The Beatles and Jerry Goldsmith is The Rolling Stones?

 

JW is Marvel and JG is DC?

 

JW is Friends and JG is Seinfeld?

 

JW is Mad Men and JG is Breaking Bad?

[Bellosh 3,419]

3 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

JW is Friends and JG is Seinfeld?

 

 

WHOA THERE, BUDDY!

 

Seinfeld >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(infinity)>>>>>>>>Friends

[Edmilson 7,471]

I love Friends. Or, at least, I loved it when I was a teenager. Don't know how I would react to it now that I'm (a little) older.

 

Seinfeld I can only like in small doses. But it's one of my mom's favorite shows ever.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

Do you guys think John Williams is The Beatles and Jerry Goldsmith is The Rolling Stones?

No. John Williams is Queen and Jerry Goldsmith is David Bowie. There are so many aspects that make that comparison work.

[Marian Schedenig 8,209]

1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

John Williams is Queen and Jerry Goldsmith is David Bowie.

 

They've worked together?

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

On 6/19/2019 at 6:34 PM, MrScratch said:

I like Jerry Goldsmith, but for as much as he is revered by some I feel like I should enjoy him more.  Below are the soundtrack CDs of his that I have.  Aside from the main themes what are some of your favorite tracks from these scores?  Also, what soundtracks of Jerry's would you recommend I add to my collection?

 

The Explorers

First Knight

Gremlins

Gremlins 2

Logan's Run

Mom and Dad Save The World

The Mummy

The Omen

Patton/Tora Tora Tora rerecording

Planet Of The Apes

Poltergeist

Star Trek The Motion Picture

Star Trek V

Studs Lonigan

Total Recall

The Wind and The Lion

 

(All are OSTs except for Gremlins, Star Trek TMP and Total Recall)

 

So do you like him more now?

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

He told the instrument players to make nice noise good.

[MrScratch 294]

On 8/6/2021 at 3:05 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

 

So do you like him more now?

Not particularly, but I actually have 49 of his soundtracks now.  I’m getting more acquainted with him.  

[Bespin 8,484]

Only 49?

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

How many did he scored?

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

At least 49.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Exactly 170 works for the big screen (https://www.imdb.com/list/ls081683728/) + plenty of TV stuff and 40 minutes of concert music.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

2 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

Exactly 170 works for the big screen (https://www.imdb.com/list/ls081683728/) + plenty of TV stuff and 40 minutes of concert music.

Oh shit, I just clicked on that link on a computer, where I wasn't logged in my IMDb account, which means that the films are displayed with their original German titles... Oh boy, what crappy shit were the translators smoking back then?! I couldn't recognize any of the Goldsmith titles from the sixties or early seventies by its German title.

 

The Mephisto Waltz => Frauenleiche in der Badewanne (Women's Corpse in a Bathtub)

Shock Treatment => Der Mörder mit der Gartenschere (The Murderer with the Jigsaw)

List of an Adrian Messenger => Die Totenliste (The Death List)

 

Seems like subtlety hasn't been invented yet. Luckily, most of the new German Blu-ray releases just use the original title, when they are as shitty as those examples.

[Marian Schedenig 8,209]

I recently watched the original Cape Fear for the first time. I've wanted to see it for about 25 years, but back then (when I was still watching dubs on TV), I missed it a couple of times because I wasn't aware that the German title was Ein Köder für the Bestie ("Bait for the Beast"). Incidentally, the German Blu-ray cover has that title only in a small font, and "Kap der Angst" (the literal translation of the original title) as the main title.

[Thor 7,519]

There's a whole topic there. We have many ridiculous translations and re-titlings in Norwegian too.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Luckily, that is mostly a matter of the past here in Germany. The last offender to me was War Horse => Gefährten (Companions).

[GerateWohl 4,371]

Just a question that came to my mind yesterday. Did Jerry Goldsmith ever write a truly romantic score to a romantic flm? And please don't say "Basic Instinct". I don't remember any.

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

Rudy.

[blondheim 1,157]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

Just a question that came to my mind yesterday. Did Jerry Goldsmith ever write a truly romantic score to a romantic flm? And please don't say "Basic Instinct". I don't remember any.

 

The Russia House. Go with god

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

There are quite a few, really. Two more good ones from the 90s are Forever Young and First Knight (of course neither is 100% romance, but the romance is pretty dominant in both IMO, with some beautiful love themes).

 

Yavar

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Forever Young is a good example. Much better than Rudy in my opinion.

[blondheim 1,157]

90s Goldsmith is straight fire

[Edmilson 7,471]

Maybe The Blue Max? I mean, it's a war film, but a pretty romantic score from what I recall.

[GerateWohl 4,371]

Thank you all for the examples. I haven't neither seen any the mentioned movies (except First Knight) nor listened to the scores. I will catch up on these. Because to my experience Goldsmith is great when it comes to tension, fear, action and comedy, but love and romance was somehow not on the list for me. I will check it out by time. Thanks again.

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

4 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

Forever Young is a good example. Much better than Rudy in my opinion.

 

The score to Rudy feels very romantic to me. Haven't seen the film.

[publicist 4,643]

51 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Because to my experience Goldsmith is great when it comes to tension, fear, action and comedy, but love and romance was somehow not on the list for me.

 

Which is a fair estimation, even if Yavar wants to have none of it. Traditional 'romance' wasn't his forte, though he managed just by sheer force of will, like in the Lionheart love theme or Russia House.

 

Goldsmith 'romanticism' was of the Hemingway variety: John Rambo, Papillon's Henri Charrière, the twisted romance of Jake Gittes, the big nature theme from The Edge' etc. - or alternately, the flight or space romantics he was so fond of. There's a reason why this stuff is his most popular.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

7 hours ago, publicist said:

 

Which is a fair estimation, even if Yavar wants to have none of it. Traditional 'romance' wasn't his forte, though he managed just by sheer force of will, like in the Lionheart love theme or Russia House.

 

Goldsmith 'romanticism' was of the Hemingway variety: John Rambo, Papillon's Henri Charrière, the twisted romance of Jake Gittes, the big nature theme from The Edge' etc. - or alternately, the flight or space romantics he was so fond of. There's a reason why this stuff is his most popular.

Nice way to try and head me off, lol!

 

Lionheart and The Russia House don’t sound at all like he was straining outside his comfort zone. In fact in countless interviews Jerry said that he didn’t really like scoring darker stuff (though he was obviously good at it) and he preferred scoring dramas about relationships.

 

Here are some pretty amazing AND popular Goldsmith love themes:

Ilia’s Theme from Star Trek: The Motion Picture

Carol Anne’s Theme from Poltergiest (not romantic love, obviously, but still)

Love theme from The Mummy

Love theme from First Knight

Love theme from The Shadow (I guess this one is more overlooked but it’s gorgeous.)

He went full Barry romance on Medicine Man (“The Trees”) and film music fans loved it!

Good lord, he wrote THREE gorgeous new themes for Star Trek: Insurrection (the straightforward love theme, the “New Sight” theme, and the Ba’Ku Theme) for cryin’ out loud…which is why it’s my favorite of his three TNG feature scores

Going further into the past, a lot of fans seem to love his romantic themes that I frankly find a bit too sappy…The Wind and the Lion for example, or the main love theme in The Sand Pebbles (I far prefer the secondary love theme in that score which he called “Chinese Love Theme”). What I particularly love from his 60s output are what I’d call his “brittle love themes”, like the one he wrote for The Blue Max, or the particularly heartbreaking lost love theme from Seconds.

 

Moving to the more obscure, how about his absolutely ravishing love theme from The Salamander?

 

 

And my favorite cue from another favorite obscure Goldsmith score of mine — gorgeous love theme comes in at the 28 second mark:

 

And finally let’s go all the way back to Jerry Goldsmith’s very first feature film score, Black Patch, in 1957 (Kickstarter campaign to re-record it here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/129145902/black-patch-the-man-jerry-goldsmith-new-recording/rewards)

What’s the highlight of the *entire* score? It’s not the action or suspense or mystery music, though that’s all solid. Nothing else in the score is A+ top drawer Jerry Goldsmith on the level of THIS romantic sequence which just sends chills up my spine!

 

So he may not write love themes on the level of his mentor and inspiration Miklos Rozsa, but then no one ever has (with the possible exception of Alfred Newman). I don’t think there’s much for Jerry that “wasn’t in his wheelhouse”.

 

Yavar

 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

33 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Love theme from The Mummy

Love theme from First Knight

Love theme from The Shadow

I really appreciate the love themes from The Mummy and especially The Shadow, but First Knight has really one of his most generic love themes that overstays its welcome.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

18 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

I really appreciate the love themes from The Mummy and especially The Shadow, but First Knight has really one of his most generic love themes that overstays its welcome.

It’s my least favorite of those three wonderful love themes, but I still love it. One thing Jerry would sometimes do is put a gorgeous love theme over an action rhythm, blending these two sides of his talent. “The Camel Race” from The Mummy is a good example, with a really urgent version of the love theme used in that. But First Knight has some great examples of this too, like “Boat Trip” — love his treatment of the love theme over the action rhythms in that one.

 

Yavar

[Thor 7,519]

Goldsmith could certainly do romance, but I agree with those who say he couldn't really do the undiluted romanticism of composers like Barry or Williams. He was always more edgy.

 

But this reminds me of another "problem" I've been having -- the search for a JG score that is consistently calm and soothing throughout. I've probably heard some 100 Goldsmiths over the years, but I still haven't been able to find that one soundtrack that has this quality throughout the entirety of the album programme. Looking over my collection, I suppose the closest is indeed MEDICINE MAN, but even that has its more uptempo or action-infused elements. There's not really a STANLEY & IRIS or THE ACCIDENTAL TOURIST to be found.

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

12 minutes ago, Thor said:

But this reminds me of another "problem" I've been having -- the search for a JG score that is consistently calm and soothing throughout.

 

I find Rudy to be a thoroughly relaxing score, even the more energetic parts. Perfect music for a near-slumber on the couch.

[Thor 7,519]

It's a good score, but occasionally far too "triumphant" to qualify.

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

There's not really a STANLEY & IRIS or THE ACCIDENTAL TOURIST to be found.

 

Thank god. 

 

The closest will be Powder or Raggedy Man with the suspense stuff out, and the shorter tv scores like Babe. 

2 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

So he may not write love themes on the level of his mentor and inspiration Miklos Rozsa, but then no one ever has (with the possible exception of Alfred Newman).

 

 

Of course, Barry, Williams and Horner (and Legrand and and and) would outdo him in this department, quite easily and he knew it (and probably found it frustrating). 

 

JG's 'thing' always was pulse and rhythm and not consonant stuff, and while he could do better tunes than anyone when the genre or story suited him, stuff like 'Medicine Man' or other 90's stuff ('The Shadow love theme'? It's just the bridge of the main theme re-purposed in a more tender guise, forchrissakes) always sounds a wee bit phony, like he knew he had to deliver them and was craftsman enough to do just that and that was that.

 

I'll put it this way: Goldsmith and Rózsa are certainly my favourite *american* film composers, but neither would Goldsmith be for his tender stuff nor Rózsa for his action music.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

Goldsmith could certainly do romance, but I agree with those who say he couldn't really do the undiluted romanticism of composers like Barry or Williams. He was always more edgy.

wut?

 

”couldn’t”?

 

 

Not only could he do it, but that’s a clear homage to Barry’s style in particular (Goldsmith was a great admirer of his, and I think once said that if he were directing a movie, he’d hire Barry to score it.)

 

And if Ilia’s Theme doesn’t qualify as “undiluted romanticism”, I frankly don’t know what does…

 

 

I feel like I’ve entered The Twilight Zone with some of the comments people are making in this thread…speaking of which, the “Kick the Can” segment of his film score has some gorgeous stuff too.

 

Yavar

[Ollie 1,059]

 

 

I'm not a musical scholar so I'll leave the technical aspects of the discussion to the experts.

 

That being said, from a listener's standpoint, Goldsmith was on par with Williams. If I had a Mount Rushmore of film composers, Goldsmith would be second, after Johnny.

 

He had his share of big films, granted they weren't the huge $300 Million - $500 Million that Williams had, but during his peak years there weren't as many of those as there are nowadays. 

 

It just seems at times Jerry caught some of the bad breaks or leftovers that you would have thought to be successful projects but probably came at the wrong time.

 

Most of his action writing was second to none and I agree with Yavar, he could write some beautiful, tender, romantic music. 

 

[publicist 4,643]

34 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I feel like I’ve entered The Twilight Zone with some of the comments people are making in this thread…

 

That's because, Yavar, having a critical perspective towards your favourite subject is a totally foreign concept to you. 

6 minutes ago, Ollie said:

He had his share of big films, granted they weren't the huge $300 Million - $500 Million that Williams had, but during his peak years there weren't as many of those as there are nowadays.

 

Which is really the last criterion i have when weighing my favourites. 

[Thor 7,519]

1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

wut?

 

”couldn’t”?

 

I already mentioned MEDICINE MAN as one that comes close, Yavar. I think one of the virtues of being a hardcore fan, is also to recognize the possible limitations of the composer you're a fan of (God knows I have plenty in regards to Williams). Goldsmith never did the straight-up Barry-esque romance very well. It was simply not his forte nor anything he was interested in. He always had to add something 'peculiar' to whatever idiom he was trying. And that's not even a criticism, it's just who he was as a composer. Don't try to defend it, just embrace it, is my advice. As I said earlier, he could do broad, romantic themes (and yes, "Ilya's Theme" is a good example). But there was always something going on that "complicated" the proceedings, both in orchestration and rhythm.

 

I sorta agree with publicist in that POWDER is a another good example, but even that runs into some difficulties.

[1977 1,743]

1 hour ago, Ollie said:

If I had a Mount Rushmore of film composers, Goldsmith would be second, after Johnny.

 

That would be a fun thing to see rendered out.

 

Who would be three and four? 

 

Barry and Horner for me.

[Edmilson 7,471]

Yeah, JW, JB, JG and JH form the Fantastic Four of Hollywood composers.

 

Four genius composers whose names coincidentally start with the letter J.

[Ollie 1,059]

38 minutes ago, JTWfan77 said:

 

That would be a fun thing to see rendered out.

 

Who would be three and four? 

 

Barry and Horner for me.

 

 

Bernard Herrmann and Akira Ifukube

 

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

8 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Yeah, JW, JB, JG and JH form the Fantastic Four of Hollywood composers.

 

Four genius composers whose names coincidentally start with the letter J.

I’d sub out JB for EB, personally. Or maybe sub JH for EB, since JH was a different generation altogether.

 

Yavar

[blondheim 1,157]

The faces on Mount Rushmore cover a number of generations

[Tom Guernsey 2,287]

Angie is one of those scores that’s easily forgotten but it’s absolutely charming and fits nicely alongside anyone looking for something with a Stanley and Iris vibe.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

On 8/15/2021 at 2:26 PM, Thor said:

I already mentioned MEDICINE MAN as one that comes close, Yavar.

 

More importantly what you haven't mentioned is how it falls short, since you also claim "Goldsmith never did the straight-up Barry-esque romance very well" despite multiple obvious examples (especially Medicine Man, an outright Barry homage) staring you in the face. You're the one making an absolute statement ("never") and you're the one who's going to have some trouble backing up that claim.

 

On 8/15/2021 at 2:26 PM, Thor said:

It was simply not his forte nor anything he was interested in. He always had to add something 'peculiar' to whatever idiom he was trying. And that's not even a criticism, it's just who he was as a composer. Don't try to defend it, just embrace it, is my advice. As I said earlier, he could do broad, romantic themes (and yes, "Ilya's Theme" is a good example). But there was always something going on that "complicated" the proceedings, both in orchestration and rhythm.

I sorta agree with publicist in that POWDER is a another good example, but even that runs into some difficulties.

 

What's edgy and complicated about most of Powder? What's edgy and complicated (as opposed to "unabashed romanticism") when it comes to Ilia's Theme? (I hear nothing other than gorgeous in that; if it's edgy and complicated then Princess Leia's theme is too, lol.) "The Trees"?

 

I'm not defending anything. I'm correcting a bunch of people who apparently know Goldsmith's output less than they think they do, if they're going to throw around absolute statements here which are clearly false (and demonstrably so, with little effort). I'm not going to embrace ill-informed opinions just because you and publicist seem to agree on them. If I started spouting some ill-informed opinions you know are wrong about John Williams (say something like, "Williams never wrote edgy or challenging modern music" or "All Williams scores sound like Superman"), and someone else agreed with me, I doubt that would cause you to give in and "just embrace it". I'm sure Images would rapidly be introduced into that conversation. Well, that's the way I feel when I read the comments about Goldsmith here.

 

On 8/15/2021 at 2:26 PM, Thor said:

I think one of the virtues of being a hardcore fan, is also to recognize the possible limitations of the composer you're a fan of (God knows I have plenty in regards to Williams).

 

On 8/15/2021 at 1:57 PM, publicist said:

That's because, Yavar, having a critical perspective towards your favourite subject is a totally foreign concept to you. 

 

You don't know me very well and you're quite simply wrong about that. I guess you aren't active on the FSM board, but over many years there I've expressed criticism of quite a few Goldsmith scores I don't much care for, such as Extreme Prejudice and Along Came a Spider -- why do you think I bowed out of doing those Soundtrack Spotlights for The Goldsmith Odyssey? Because I would have felt compelled to honestly share my critical perspective of those two scores. It would have been an inappropriate place to do so, but not doing so would have been dishonest. So I left those discussions to my cohosts who felt more positively about those scores. (Note: I'm also not on the imminent Soundtrack Spotlight on LLL's new Caboblanco but that's just because I've been too swamped with work -- I love that score.)

 

Goldsmith is my favorite composer but there are a decent number of Goldsmith scores I don't much care for, and rarely if ever listen to. Some of them might shock some people here, like Supergirl (a lot of folks seem to love that one) or King Solomon's Mines. For something like 17 years after hearing it, I didn't like Total Recall, and said so repeatedly on various film music boards. I only warmed up to it finally with the Quartet edition, and it's still not among my favorites by any means even though I like it much better than I did in the past. Extreme Prejudice is starting to grow on me at last thanks to the Spotlight episode others did, and Intrada's new edition which takes out all the synth rescore cues that LLL mixed in, but I *HATED* the Extreme Prejudice album from La-La Land years ago. I could not fathom why lots of people seemed to be hearing a totally different score from me, and I expressed that on multiple occasions.

 

A score that many list as among Goldsmith's very best -- Under Fire -- I have been incredibly critical of, over the years, due to his (still, in my view) excessive synth usage. The dated 80s synths mar so many cues in that score which otherwise I would consider great. If I have one major criticism of Goldsmith, it would be his uneven and often grating synth usage throughout the 80s. I find most of the original Gremlins borderline unlistenable due to them (sorry fans, I'm more likely to put on the more orchestral Gremlins 2). Same goes for Runaway, which I think is good compositionally but I just can't enjoy it because of the synths it was performed on. I like some of Goldsmith's 70s synth usage much better (Damnation Alley comes to mind) while other times I can't stand it (certain cues in another recognized classic, Logan's Run, I just can't stand).

 

I don't have the time to search through all my old FSM posts to more thoroughly back up my critical-of-Goldsmith bonafides, but here are a couple critical Complete Score Breakdowns I did which are easily at hand:

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=116974&forumID=1&archive=0

 

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=113552&forumID=1&archive=0

 

So now you can stop acting like I just love everything Goldsmith ever did and I'm incapable of being critical when it comes to him, mmkay?

 

Yavar

[blondheim 1,157]

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,087]

36 minutes ago, blondheim said:

The faces on Mount Rushmore cover a number of generations

 

Still, it would have to be Korngold, Steiner, Newman, and Waxman.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

It was simply not his forte nor anything he was interested in. He always had to add something 'peculiar' to whatever idiom he was trying. And that's not even a criticism, it's just who he was as a composer. Don't try to defend it, just embrace it, is my advice.

 

14 hours ago, publicist said:

Goldsmith 'romanticism' was of the Hemingway variety: John Rambo, Papillon's Henri Charrière, the twisted romance of Jake Gittes, the big nature theme from The Edge' etc. - or alternately, the flight or space romantics he was so fond of. There's a reason why this stuff is his most popular.

 

5 hours ago, publicist said:

JG's 'thing' always was pulse and rhythm and not consonant stuff...

I'll put it this way: Goldsmith and Rózsa are certainly my favourite *american* film composers, but neither would Goldsmith be for his tender stuff nor Rózsa for his action music.

 

https://www.criticsatlarge.ca/2014/05/notes-and-frames-ii-interview-with.html

 

I'll let Jerry answer you himself, italicized emphasis mine:

"kc: If Freud showed your imagination at work learning how to spot music in a movie, A Patch of Blue reveals something of your delicacy as a writer.

jg: A Patch of Blue, a movie about a man (Sidney Poitier) who falls in love with a blind woman (Elizabeth Hartman), was that kind of delicate and sensitive picture. It's also the kind of film that I prefer to do. People don't tend to remember that I can do those things. They concentrate more on the big epic movies and I have to remind them of the little ones like A Patch of Blue and Lillies of the Field.

kc: Why are these smaller dramas so much more satisfying for you?

jg: I prefer the kind of dramatic situation where there is someone you're trying to get inside of with the music. To try and write music for machinery doesn't appeal to me very much. Some people find character in automobiles. I don't. It's human situations that are attractive to me. That's why A Patch of Blue was a very special project."

 

I can find a bunch more of these sorts of interviews, too. Even though he was undeniably great at scoring action and sci-fi and horror, it's purely a fact that what he really loved doing were more intimate drama scores like A Patch of Blue, Raggedy Man, Love Field, etc. Hell, he probably loved doing Angie too, even though many people don't rate that score highly. I'm sure he LOVED to have an excuse to go fully Barry in "The Trees" -- he repeatedly said over the years that if he was directing a film, John Barry is who he would hire to score it. When someone says, "the flight or space romantics he was so fond of" I know they are talking out their ass. Jerry had no special love for sci-fi; in fact he repeatedly said he didn't understand Star Trek at all!

 

Yavar