The Official "Album Presentation vs Complete & Chronological Presentation" Thread Round 2

[bruce marshall 1,315]

See what I mean about going to bed BEFORE Thor wakes up.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

11 minutes ago, Thor said:

Why should I relinquish anything? As long as they keep releasing my favourite scores in a format I despise, I'm going to say something. Although - in recent years - I largely ignore such threads in the first place, alternatively entering and speaking about the score or film's general qualities instead.

 

My advice is: Stop making a big deal out of it. It's just two different ways of appreciating soundtracks. Let me say my piece, and move on. If I can tolerate a million threads and posts about expanded releases, you can surely tolerate the occasional criticism of it. Don't take it personally.

It is less criticism and more trolling. You never add anything substatial or new to your replies. Basically, you just say "that is my (admittedly stuborn) opinion, don't you forget that, I'll remind you again next time", because you have a problem accepting other people's preferences on that issue. Making an effort to emphasize that every time is the big deal. Sometimes even I criticize expansions, but not "because they're expansions". Don't tell me that you haven't determined your opinion on a C&C release, before you pressed play.

[Thor 7,504]

2 hours ago, Romão said:

This is just meant to illustrate the plethora of nuances that might exist when discussing the merits and shortcomings of expanded editions. There can be no general stance or answer that applies to all situations.

 

Yes, I think that is where we fundamentally disagree, Romao. As I said earlier, I only think some 1-5% expansions are worthwhile. There's not a lot of nuance. And I'm not taking this out of thin air, but after decades of buying and sampling expanded releases, only to be disappointed every single time. Continuing doing so woud be sado-masochism, so I have stopped, but what I have learned are certain rules and philosophies and ideologies that drive and guide my particular preference. I asked myself: "why do I only like this type of soundtrack presentation, but hate that?". That has been most valuable.

 

As for your run-down of titles, you deserve credit for taking the time to do so, but it's probably no surprise to you that I disagree with many of your descriptions/evaluations. If I get the time on Sunday, I'll answer them one-by-one.

 

1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

OST = perfect          C&C = trash

 

Actually, I've said a number of times - even in this very thread - that OST does not equal perfection. I evaluate the OST program like I would any album. I just need there to be an OST arrangement for me even to consider it a proper album.

 

1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

It is less criticism and more trolling. You never add anything substatial or new to your replies. Basically, you just say "that is my (admittedly stuborn) opinion, don't you forget that, I'll remind you again next time", because you have a problem accepting other people's preferences on that issue. Making an effort to emphasize that every time is the big deal. Sometimes even I criticize expansions, but not "because they're expansions". Don't tell me that you haven't determined your opinion on a C&C release, before you pressed play.

 

You have it the wrong way round. The 'trolling' in this case is by people like you who can't tolerate a different perspective, and go personal instead. That is the very definition of trolling. I stay focussed on the issue. Furthermore, as I've said many times in this thread, I easily tolerate other people's preferences. If you like and enjoy C&C, that is perfectly fine with me. It is the very idea of C&C I hate, not the people who enjoy them or their preference.

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

 

6 minutes ago, Thor said:

Actually, I've said a number of times - even in this very thread - that OST does not equal perfection. I evaluate the OST program like I would any album. I just need there to be an OST arrangement for me even to consider it a proper album.

 

 

On 10/7/2020 at 1:36 PM, Thor said:

To me, the OST will always and forever be the 'definitive' release - both in sound and presentation. But by all means -- I have what I need; if others need this, be my guest.

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Thor has been ' quarantined'!😁

[Thor 7,504]

Quote

To me, the OST will always and forever be the 'definitive' release

 

Yes, JS, that was in relation to AMISTAD. Not OSTs in general.

[Richard Penna 3,690]

14 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

The quality of the listening experince is not determined by the sort of the release, but by the fucking program itself.

 

Yes, this is the point I was trying to articulate. So much about the listening quality of a release is in the score itself. Some scores justify having the bulk released, and some most likely don't, but you'll always find someone who loves that cue you hate.

 

There's way too much room for individual subjective taste to definitely say that any particular arrangement is right or wrong, or drags or fills an hour. Hence when someone comes along, sees an 80 minute album for some random score, and immediately says 'that's too long.... the composer obviously hasn't made the effort to reconceptualise it for me', then they're forgetting that the composer has had to try to make a release which pleases everyone.

[Thor 7,504]

4 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

There's way too much room for individual subjective taste to definitely say that any particular arrangement is right or wrong, or drags or fills an hour. Hence when someone comes along, sees an 80 minute album for some random score, and immediately says 'that's too long.... the composer obviously hasn't made the effort to reconceptualise it for me', then they're forgetting that the composer has had to try to make a release which pleases everyone.

 

If that was referring to me, that is not something I have ever done in my life.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

One thing I'll say that I don't think has been already is that I don't think it's fair to judge a composer on the musical qualities of an entire score, and that they're lesser if a complete score isn't engaging in every single cue, start to finish. By necessity, on most films, there's at least one moment or scene that requires some kind of musical setting, where silence would not be as effective, but still has to stay out of the way by being pretty nondescript or "flat". In these instances, the composer has to write something purely functional, not something to satisfy their sense of musical storytelling.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

 Now that we know " definitive" is Thor's trigger word* ,one hopes members will refrain from using it in the future.

 

* like " Dracerys" in 😁GOT

[Thor 7,504]

Feel free to use it, but expect me to disagree!

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

19 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

Yes, JS, that was in relation to AMISTAD. Not OSTs in general.

 

Oh, that wasn't clear to me.

[Richard Penna 3,690]

17 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

If that was referring to me, that is not something I have ever done in my life. I always listen to the album before making any kind of judgement on either score or presentation or length. OK, occasionally I have skimmed releases of this kind - like TENET most recently - because they were simply intolerable to get through in their entirety.

 

I seem to remember that you decided Silvestri had likely made a mistake with the digital album of (Ready Player One or Avengers Endgame, don't remember which) before listening to it, solely on the fact that it breached a CD's capacity by a few minutes. Now I happen to find RPO boring (so there goes that one), and Endgame is a tad long, so there's definitely merit in that view.

 

But a score's quality absolutely justifies its release length, but that's a factor that, for the average score, few people will exactly agree on, hence by setting yourself such subjective and interpretable measurements, you're setting yourself up to frown upon so any albums, because you're (if you don't mind my saying so) so sensitive to that delicate balance which is affected by a multude of factors. Most of us just deal with it by trimming an album here or there or, adding a few cues from a promo.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

32 minutes ago, Thor said:

You have it the wrong way round. The 'trolling' in this case is by people like you who can't tolerate a different perspective, and go personal instead. That is the very definition of trolling. I stay focussed on the issue. Furthermore, as I've said many times in this thread, I easily tolerate other people's preferences. If you like and enjoy C&C, that is perfectly fine with me. It is the very idea of C&C I hate, not the people who enjoy them or their preference.

Measured by the quality of your arguments and the passive aggressiveness therein I will gratefully continue which you like to call "trolling" by your definition.

[Thor 7,504]

9 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I seem to remember that you decided Silvestri had likely made a mistake with the digital album of (Ready Player One or Avengers Endgame, don't remember which) before listening to it, solely on the fact that it breached a CD's capacity by a few minutes.

 

I did? Could be, don't remember. If so, my "gut instinct" was right about that (you pick up certain gut instincts on this issue over the years) - the release was a disaster. But working reasonably well in my abridged playlist version (which I sadly lost in a hard drive crash, and now have to rebuild).

 

Quote

A score's quality absolutely justifies its release length, but that's a factor that, for the average score, few people will exactly agree on, hence by setting yourself such subjective and interpretable measurements, you're setting yourself up to frown upon so any albums, because you're (if you don't mind my saying so) so sensitive to that delicate balance which is affected by a multude of factors. Most of us just deal with it by trimming an album here or there or, adding a few cues from a promo.

 

Yeah, that's my "emergency strategy" (like the aforementiond RPO) when no good, listener-friendly arrangement has been made. I have a loooong list of albums that I need to whittle down and playlist, once time allows.

 

5 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Measured by the quality of your arguments and the passive aggressiveness therein I will gratefully continue which you like to call "trolling" by your definition.

 

Well, I think that says more about you, then.

 

There is no passive-agressiveness, I'm just focussed on the issue. It's a mystery to me why some people get personal on such a silly, little topic as differing preferences for soundtrack presentations.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

12 minutes ago, Thor said:

Feel free to use it, but expect me to disagree!

My trigger is the phrase " it's not complete"

A😵😠rghhhhhhhhhh😠😠😠😠😠😡😡

 

😆

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

On 10/7/2020 at 6:28 PM, Bayesian said:

I know this has been discussed in other threads...

...and it will be, again, that's the beauty of it 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

This is like the Star Wars Disenchantment thread but for Thor debates.  

[Manakin Skywalker 4,894]

[Nick Parker 3,040]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

This is like the Star Wars Disenchantment thread but for Thor debates.  

 

So is this the STD thread? (SoundTrack Disenchantment)

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

To be fair, Thor is not nearly as obnoxious as that other guy. Also, he actually contributes to the music discussion, both here and elsewhere.

[publicist 4,643]

The obnoxious/toxicnoxious levels of the Star Wars guy are beyond the abilities of mortal humans. Thor never stood a chance!

[bruce marshall 1,315]

4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

To be fair, Thor is not nearly as obnoxious as that other guy.

Jurassic Shark is NOT obnoxious!😁

[Thor 7,504]

I don't get the references to the "Star Wars Enchantment" thread; guess I need to read it to find out.

 

I'll be off-board for a couple of days now, but talk amongst yourselves in the meantime (or not)!  On Sunday, I want to address Romao's post from earlier, since it deserves a fuller response.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

It's over, Thor. It's OVER!

 

😊

[Thor 7,504]

 

 

(Look at me posting memes! What has the world come to?)

[bruce marshall 1,315]

My quote is from FIRST BLOOD!

[Arpy 4,145]

Film music whether we like it or not has only one true objective - to support the imagery and thematic substance of a film. 

 

Soundtrack albums might represent a score's overall narrative but they aren't accurate representations - they miss out chunks of music that for one reason or another were cut. Strangely the most accurate representation would be something microedited to hell to fit to the picture and no one would ever want to listen to that! It would be similar to the TPM Ultimate Edition. 

 

So Thor should count himself lucky there are composers who care to curate an album. Neither way is the right way, all ways are acceptable! 

 

 

 

 

[Bayesian 1,363]

Really, the important thing is that Thor’s comments are never (or have never been) used by a studio head or other decision-maker to justify NOT expanding a release. 

 

By default, Thor is the one person among us who’s always in the best position on score releases, because he assumes that the OST is and will forever be the best and only presentation that matters.

 

Fair enough for him... as long as his comments along the lines of, “why bother with an expansion, the OST was perfect” don’t get in the way of the rest of us eventually getting what we want (i.e., expansions). Sure, it’s unlikely, but stranger things have surely happened. 

[Arpy 4,145]

That's not true, from what he's said in the past, it's more a case of s specially curated albums, over a simply a reduced score on CD. So it's more niche than that!

[bruce marshall 1,315]

1 hour ago, Bayesian said:

Really, the important thing is that Thor’s comments are never (or have never been) used by a studio head or other decision-maker to justify NOT expanding a release. 

 

By default, Thor is the one person among us who’s always in the best position on score releases, because he assumes that the OST is and will forever be the best and only presentation that matters.

 

Fair enough for him... as long as his comments along the lines of, “why bother with an expansion, the OST was perfect” don’t get in the way of the rest of us eventually getting what we want (i.e., expansions). Sure, it’s unlikely, but stranger things have surely happened. 

Unlikely? You forget Thor is a a god in Norse mythology.

Very, very powerful😵

I wouldn't worry.

I can't even get the labels to leave off fifteen second cues!😥

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I really love how Lukas Kendall expanded the Bond scores esp . DAF, YOLT, OHMSS.

ONE disc, All the music, aesthetic pleasing presentation.

Not a collection of cues but the ost ( with extended cues/ unreleased music) and " Bonus tracks". Presented in a manner that allows chronological programming ( except for YOLT).

BUT, I fear this method is dying on the Vine.

On 10/9/2020 at 12:17 AM, Arpy said:

 

 

Strangely the most accurate representation would be something microedited to hell to fit to the picture and no one would ever want to listen to that! It would be similar to the TPM Ultimate Edition. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are fans who literally spent years doing just that.

BLADE RUNNER and ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST come to mind.

Have not heard the latter, but the former is an aesthetic disaster compared to officially released CDs ( and unofficial).

 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,894]

Is the PolEx session leak incomplete? I thought I heard there were some "songs" missing (not the score), but as I typically don't pay attention to the none-score tracks I'm not positive.

[TSMefford 1,509]

On 10/8/2020 at 1:13 PM, Thor said:

As long as they keep releasing my favourite scores in a format I despise, I'm going to say something.

 

But why? Especially with scores that already exist in the format you prefer? Some of us want C&C and you prefer the OST.

 

If both exist, then what's the problem? Are both sides not then happy?

[Manakin Skywalker 4,894]

28 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

If both exist, then what's the problem? Are both sides not then happy?

 

Because that's just how narcissism works.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

 I make constructive criticisms aimed at improving expansions.I try to make helpful suggestions.

MM seems to be  taking them to heart ( WOTW) which justifies my remarks about c &  c.

 

 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

27 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Because that's just how narcissism works.

It is very noticeable that Thor is very focused on himself when writing. There are "I"s and "my"s everywhere, no matter what the topic is. I'm not implying that he's a narcissist though.

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

Give the man a rest - it's only soundtracks.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

1 minute ago, Brundlefly said:

It is very noticeable that Thor is very focused on himself when writing. There are "I"s and "my"s everywhere, no matter what the topic is.

Well, when you want to emphasize its YOUR opinion, " I" "ME" " MINE"

seems justifiable😁

2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Give the man a rest - it's only soundtracks.

Now you know how it was for me- at that other place!😗😗😗

[Brundlefly 2,385]

2 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Well, when you want to emphasize its YOUR opinion, " I" "ME" " MINE"

seems justifiable😁

Obviously, but there are conspicuous differences in the way people express themselves.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Thor abides.

Let it be....😊

[Richard Penna 3,690]

1 hour ago, TSMefford said:

If both exist, then what's the problem? Are both sides not then happy?

 

I picked him up on this on the last round of this neverending debate here:

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/18489-the-official-varese-sarabande-thread/&do=findComment&comment=1704251

 

In a nutshell - he not only dislikes expanded releases, but actively wishes they wouldn't happen, and that the rest of us weren't able to buy additional music.

 

Yet when I pick him up on this unheard-of selfishness, I'm apparently attacking his ability to have 'preferences'. Mehhhh.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

What really bothers me....

When a label releases a score and folks complain that it has LESS music than on the bootleg!😵😠😡

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

Pirates.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Pirates.

Before I came here I never heard the term " session leaks"

[Manakin Skywalker 4,894]

Then you were missing out on a ton of great music!

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

What are you talking about? Beethoven's entire output has been available on record for decades!

[Manakin Skywalker 4,894]

Not the music he wrote in his mind and never put on paper!

[Bellosh 3,419]

[gkgyver 1,645]

Until about 10-15 years ago, I would say film scores deserved complete representations on CD. They were musically interesting. 

Since then, and especially in the past 5 years, select sections from 95% of all films are more than ok, because they aren't worth the CDs they're printed on anyway in most cases. 

 

When film music was still great, companies threw albums with 50% of the music at most out there. 

Now that it sucks, they release shitloads of music because it's digital.