Junkie XL's JUSTICE LEAGUE (2021)

[MedigoScan 324]

I think the end credits list them because they were created by Hans Zimmer and not Tom.

WW84 rearranged the Sunshine theme too after all and still listed it.

[Edmilson 7,449]

45 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Beautiful Lie is the BvS Main title?

 

Exactly. It plays during the beginning of the movie, as we see Bruce's flashbacks of the death of his parents.

[TSMefford 1,509]

59 minutes ago, MedigoScan said:

I think the end credits list them because they were created by Hans Zimmer and not Tom.

WW84 rearranged the Sunshine theme too after all and still listed it.

 

Guess so. We'll find out this week!

[HunterTech 994]

2 hours ago, TSMefford said:

 

Ah. So...damn...we have 4 hours of new Junkie score PLUS all these tracked cues? I assume at least some of these may be reinterpreted, but if they're in the credits then it usually means that they're used as is.

 

Usually if its tracked, the credits will list specific recordings or copies that are licensed from whatever label the cues are pulled from (like the Beltrami cue that was used in MoS). Given only the titles and composers are listed here, it's a safe bet that all of these are utilized within the actual score itself.

 

WW84 is an odd case of this, where in spite of the piece from Sunshine being a new recording, the credits list two pre-existing ones. And yet the cue that uses Clinton Shorter's Pompeii is credited like it should be, so I wonder what happened there.

[TSMefford 1,509]

18 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

 

Usually if its tracked, the credits will list specific recordings or copies that are licensed from whatever label the cues are pulled from (like the Beltrami cue that was used in MoS). Given only the titles and composers are listed here, it's a safe bet that all of these are utilized within the actual score itself.

 

WW84 is an odd case of this, where in spite of the piece from Sunshine being a new recording, the credits list two pre-existing ones. And yet the cue that uses Clinton Shorter's Pompeii is credited like it should be, so I wonder what happened there.

 

You know what, now that I think about it I haven't really found much consistency in how they're listed honestly. I mean in Deathly Hallows Part 2, for example, it lists the cues they used in the film like this:

 

"Hedwig's Theme and other cues from Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone and Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Composed by John Williams"

"Dumbledore's Farewell cue Composed by Nicholas Hooper"

 

Just full sentences of text pretty much. However, the John Williams cues are recorded fresh and Hooper's is tracked in, so...who the hell knows. Lol.

 

We won't really know until we see the film I guess. I hope someone else figures it out, because I don't really want to.

 

EDIT: Actually, I suppose if the label is WaterTower or WB or whoever (like with the example from Potter above), they may not have to list the label or license on a cue by cue basis since it's from a previous WB project and presumably on the same label? So now I really have no idea. LOL

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

2 hours ago, TSMefford said:

 

Ah. So...damn...we have 4 hours of new Junkie score PLUS all these tracked cues? I assume at least some of these may be reinterpreted, but if they're in the credits then it usually means that they're used as is.

 

18 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

 

Usually if its tracked, the credits will list specific recordings or copies that are licensed from whatever label the cues are pulled from (like the Beltrami cue that was used in MoS). Given only the titles and composers are listed here, it's a safe bet that all of these are utilized within the actual score itself.

 

WW84 is an odd case of this, where in spite of the piece from Sunshine being a new recording, the credits list two pre-existing ones. And yet the cue that uses Clinton Shorter's Pompeii is credited like it should be, so I wonder what happened there.

 

4 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

 

You know what, now that I think about it I haven't really found much consistency in how they're listed honestly. I mean in Deathly Hallows Part 2, for example, it lists the cues they used in the film like this:

 

"Hedwig's Theme and other cues from Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone and Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets Composed by John Williams"

"Dumbledore's Farewell cue Composed by Nicholas Hooper"

 

Just full sentences of text pretty much. However, the John Williams cues are recorded fresh and Hooper's is tracked in, so...who the hell knows. Lol.

 

We won't really know until we see the film I guess. I hope someone else figures it out, because I don't really want to.

 

EDIT: Actually, I suppose if the label is WaterTower or WB or whoever, they may not have to list the label or license since it's from a previous WB project and presumably on the same label? So now I really have no idea. LOL

 

I would guess they have straight reprises. Recall that this score was entirely composed and recorded remotely during pandemic. With often several different players having to be recorded separately, I think they would have avoided the cost and effort and used straight recordings where possible.

 

So I expect these actual cues to be used in the film.

 

Also, I think the inconsistent crediting might be a right's issue.  For example I don't know if Star Wars is obliged to credit Burning Homestead or Binary Sunset when they track that all the time. 

 

I think HBO Max being a different entity compared to WB might also have something to do with it.

 

Basically the usage of a cue contractually mandates a credit in the movie's end title or something.

[TSMefford 1,509]

16 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I think they would have avoided the cost and effort and used straight recordings where possible.

 

So I expect these actual cues to be used in the film.

 

That's a great point. I forgot about that. Then yeah, I'd probably say to save time and money they just dropped in some cues from BvS and MoS in some parts. Now, they could be remixed or altered from their original since I'm sure they were able to get access to those stems and what not, but I'd wager that it's the original recordings.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

2 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Also, I think the inconsistent crediting might be a right's issue.  For example I don't know if Star Wars is obliged to credit Burning Homestead or Binary Sunset when they track that all the time.

 

I can't imagine a SW movie would have to credit a cue from another SW movie, as Disney owns the rights to all of it.

 

If they plonked in a cue from something another studio owns, then they'd have to licence and credit it. I think that's how it works.

[HunterTech 994]

7 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

I can't imagine a SW movie would have to credit a cue from another SW movie, as Disney owns the rights to all of it.

 

If they plonked in a cue from something another studio owns, then they'd have to licence and credit it. I think that's how it works.

Pretty much. The rendition of The Long Goodbye in The Last Jedi is credited, so that's like the only instance of prior Williams material needing to be credited in a SW film. Though only the composers are credited, with no studio or label attached, so perhaps the rule is that any used pre-existing material that isn't from the studio and/or the composer only needs like a general composition credit (i.e. like if someone was humming the track in-film instead of a needle drop).

Even then, there's odd cases like Elfman's Batman theme getting a credit in JL in spite of his involvement with the score. So like with everything else, it's real inconsistent.
 

10 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I would guess they have straight reprises. Recall that this score was entirely composed and recorded remotely during pandemic. With often several different players having to be recorded separately, I think they would have avoided the cost and effort and used straight recordings where possible.

 

So I expect these actual cues to be used in the film.

 

9 hours ago, TSMefford said:

That's a great point. I forgot about that. Then yeah, I'd probably say to save time and money they just dropped in some cues from BvS and MoS in some parts. Now, they could be remixed or altered from their original since I'm sure they were able to get access to those stems and what not, but I'd wager that it's the original recordings.

 

Tom Holkenborg worked on both MoS and BvS, so remixing stems pulled from those projects would very much be in his wheelhouse. Given how much he's talked about retaining the Superman and WW themes though, I'm fairly positive every instance of at least those tracks would be fresh. Especially if he had worked on the score back in the movie's original production, so it wouldn't surprise me if he's referred back to some of the work done there in spite of supposedly starting fresh. Plus, with how synthy stuff like GvK is sounding, I'm not sure how much live instrumentation was actually done here.

There is the fact that WW's theme is credited in exactly the same fashion in the theatrical JL, and that's a new rendition, but then the tracked MoS cue is also credited in the same manner. So at this rate, we might as well wait for the film.

[LSH 968]

On 3/13/2021 at 11:26 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

Junkie calls it the Mount Everest of film scores.

 

What, in the sense that most never reach the end, or die?

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

Clip with music

 

 

Apparently the opening female chant is new WW material? And the rest of the riff I'd imagine is from BvS?

[TSMefford 1,509]

1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Clip with music

 

 

Apparently the opening female chant is new WW material? And the rest of the riff I'd imagine is from BvS?

Yeah. I’ve heard some talk of female vocals being highlighted in the score. Also yeah, it’s a slightly new version of the BVS riff for the rest of it.

[Jay 37,364]

New Interview: Tom Holkenborg on Crafting the “Mount Everest” of Film Scores for Justice League

[Edmilson 7,449]

Apparently Junkie wrote another theme for Batman. Which is a good thing, I never liked the Batfleck theme from BvS.

[TSMefford 1,509]

Quote

Wonder Woman’s popular guitar riff

 

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

"crafted the intense score practically by himself"

 

Junkie seems to offer this up as some kind of shocking occurrence.

 

Well guess what, outside of Remote Control minion factory - isn't that what most composers do? Write a score... BY THEMSELVES?

[TSMefford 1,509]

1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

"crafted the intense score practically by himself"

 

Junkie seems to offer this up as some kind of shocking occurrence.

 

Well guess what, outside of Remote Control minion factory - isn't that what most composers do? Write a score... BY THEMSELVES?

 

Like perhaps it's cool that he did all the live performances too? But yeah. I still find it baffling that so many people work on scores at RCP.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

"crafted the intense score practically by himself"

 

Junkie seems to offer this up as some kind of shocking occurrence.

 

Well guess what, outside of Remote Control minion factory - isn't that what most composers do? Write a score... BY THEMSELVES?

 

What an extraordinary feat!

[Mephariel 451]

1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

"crafted the intense score practically by himself"

 

Junkie seems to offer this up as some kind of shocking occurrence.

 

Well guess what, outside of Remote Control minion factory - isn't that what most composers do? Write a score... BY THEMSELVES?

 

Nope. What reality are you living in? 1940s? Every composer have assistants today, including Tyler, Beltrami, Giacchino, Mothersbaugh, McCreary. Just look at the amount of collaborators getting front cover credit on their scores: Marcus Trumpp, Dennis Smith, Buck Sanders, Anna Drubich, John Carey, Breton Vivian, Robert Lydecker, Keith Power, Chris Bacon, Nami Melumad, Albert Fox, John Enroth, etc. Some composers in Bleeding Fingers used to intern for McCreary at Sparks and Shadows.

 

This is not even counting composer teams like Tykwer/Klimek, Halloran/Hauschka, The Newton Brothers, Wander/Kloser, etc.

In what universe do composers write music by themselves? Jonathan Broxton once said on Filmtracks that there isn’t an active composer working today he knows that doesn’t uses ghostwriters. Sometimes, it just isn’t possible due to commitments and reshoots for a composer to write every note.

 

If anything, collaborations is the norm, not loner writers. At least for successful, prolific composers.

14 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

 

Like perhaps it's cool that he did all the live performances too? But yeah. I still find it baffling that so many people work on scores at RCP.

 

There is why RCP is the #1 brand in the industry. There is nothing surprising about it. I would be more surprise if there are only couple people working in RCP.

 

Same with composers like Tyler, Elfman, Giacchino, etc. You think their teams are bigger than someone like Mark Islam or Mark McKenzie? You bet. 

[TSMefford 1,509]

@Mephariel There's a difference between having assistants, interns, orchestrators, etc. vs 5 - 6 actual established composers on a score. Yes, most composers have teams of people who do various things for them.

 

I'm not denying that RCP is the top of the industry. It probably is, but I don't like that it is or how they do things. Just a part of making everything more into a machine when it comes to movies these days. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Not to mention the weirdos who obsessively listen to their shit!

[Mephariel 451]

13 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

@Mephariel There's a difference between having assistants and interns vs 5-6 actual composers on a score. Yes, most composers have teams of people who do various things for them.

 

I'm not denying that RCP is the top of the industry. It probably is, but I don't like that it is or how they do things. Just a part of making everything more into a machine when it comes to movies these days. 

 

The composers I listed have worked with co-composers, that is why they get cover credit. What do you think they were composing if not the score? The lobby music in the theater? Again, it is like you are living in a different universe then everyone else. You are right, most composers do not work with 5-6 other composers, but neither does Zimmer or other RCP composers. The average Zimmer score probably have 2 co-composers, which is comparable to others in the industry. The only time Zimmer uses 5-6 there is a time crunch (Pirates, Dunkirk).

 

And again, do I need to remind you again that there are numerous composing team on the market? Tykwer/Klimek, Halloran/Hauschka, The Newton Brothers, Wander/Kloser, Atticus/Ross…

 

It is also ironic that we are discussing this in this thread. Elfman used more co-composers in the original score (3) probably than what Junkie used if his interview is correct. 

 

JWfan Forum is probably one of the last places on earth that still romanticize film music composing. The people here actually believes that everyone besides RCP is writing pen and paper like Williams. Must be a warmest fake bubble to be in. 

 

[Edmilson 7,449]

32 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

Jonathan Broxton once said on Filmtracks that there isn’t an active composer working today he knows that doesn’t uses ghostwriters.

 

I wonder who is John Williams' actual ghostwriter. William Ross? Gustavo Dudamel? At least the former scored Chamber of Secrets.

[Mephariel 451]

7 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

 

I wonder who is John Williams' actual ghostwriter. William Ross? Gustavo Dudamel? At least the former scored Chamber of Secrets.

 

This kind of proves Broxton's point right? John Williams one of the last of his kind. And you know how many scores Williams did in the last 10 years? Like 5? Do you know how many scores Beltrami does in one year? Or Zimmer? Or Giacchino? Or Balfe? Or Tyler? Probably 4-7. Ross does like what, 1 score a year?

 

If you are an active, competitive, successful composer today, you are probably collaborating.

 

 

[Edmilson 7,449]

Yeah, apparently one of the reasons that people don't hire Williams anymore is because he writes the score all by himself - and if you're gonna ask to a almost 90 year old man to write 2 hours of music by himself, you gonna need a little patience and a lot of time, which is something many movies today can't afford. 

[TSMefford 1,509]

Sigh, Good grief. You really have no idea what I'm saying do you? Let's unpack this.

 

35 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

The composers I listed have worked with co-composers, that is why they get cover credit.

 

I can't tell you how many scores out there from RCP that have co-composers that are NOT on credited on the cover. Most commonly, Hans Zimmer gets cover credit and you barely ever know that other people worked on it. Even Amazing Spider-Man 2 lists the team of people he worked with as "The Magnificent Six" (featuring the marketable names of Pharrell Williams and Johnny Marr).

 

How about Angels and Demons? Cover only lists Hans Zimmer with solos by Joshua Bell. Meanwhile Lorne Balfe, Atli Orvarsson, Geoff Zanelli, Mel Wesson, and Nick Glennie-Smith are all listed as composers on various cues.

 

35 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

What do you think they are composing if not the score? The lobby music in the theater?

 

I...what? They could each be off composing their OWN scores. Instead they're all working on ONE score together. What are you on about?

 

35 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

You are right, most composers do not work with 5-6 other composers, but neither does Zimmer or other RCP composers. The average Zimmer score probably have 2 co-composers, which is comparable to others in the industry. The only time Zimmer uses 5-6 there is a time crunch (Pirates, Dunkirk).

 

You realize that most scores RCP does are big blockbusters right? Those are almost always a huge time crunch. It's VERY common that Zimmer scores have 4-6 composers on them. I just listed two above: The Amazing Spider-Man, Angels and Demons. Here's some more for Zimmer specifically:

• The Simpsons Movie (6 Additional Composers, only Zimmer is credited on the cover)
• The Da Vinci Code (4 Additional Composers)
• Pirates of the Caribbean (Basically all of them, which you mentioned already)
• Man of Steel (3-4 Additional Composers)
• Inferno (4 Additional Composers)
• Batman V Superman (4 Additional Composers)

Shall I go on?

 

35 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

And again, do I need to remind you again that there are numerous composing team on the market? Tykwer/Klimek, Halloran/Hauschka, The Newton Brothers, Wander/Kloser, Atticus/Ross…

 

That's a completely different thing. In that case those are two composers that always work together and are always listed as co-composers especially on the cover. In that case, they are commonly doing equal work on the score. There's a big difference between saying a score was composed by Trent Reznor & Atticus Ross and it literally JUST being those two and saying a score was written by Hans Zimmer when there are anywhere from 2-6 or even 7 other people attached to it that are not listed with him. Who knows how much actual work each person contributed to that score?

 

16 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

And you know how many scores Williams did in the last 10 years? Like 5?

 

At least I know that when a Williams score comes out there's a lot time and dedication from exclusively one guy put into this score. 

 

Are the RCP composers successful? Clearly. But they're successful in the modern day industry where movies are pumped out so fast that you need a team of 5-7 people to keep up with it. Who's score even is it then? Does that not dilute the music to have to also pump it out so fast? They might as well just start marketing all their scores as "Music by Remote Control Productions".

 

You're essentially arguing that quantity and speed is the marker for success and skill and that is simply not always true. When you are dealing with doing things fast and doing more things in a year...the quality itself tends to suffer. And that is my issue with RCP scores. They're almost never as good as they could be and it makes a lot of sense why a lot of that stuff sounds the same. It probably makes it easier to pump them out.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Yeah, apparently one of the reasons that people don't hire Williams anymore is because he writes the score all by himself - and if you're gonna ask to a almost 90 year old man to write 2 hours of music by himself, you gonna need a little patience and a lot of time, which is something many movies today can't afford. 

 

Why not? Does he have to only score Spielberg movies and blockbusters? A small scale drama wouldn't hurt... or don't they make those at all anymore?

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

Junkie says in the interview, he still worked on MOS - where was his credit?

 

From ZSJL's credits below - 

 

"The Girl" From Batman V. Superman: Dawn Of Justice 
Composed By Hans Zimmer, Robert Badami, Melissa Muik, Mark Andrew Wherry And Steve Mazzaro 
 
"Wishlist" From Batman V. Superman: Dawn Of Justice 
Composed By Hans Zimmer And Benjamin Wallfisch 

 

"Main Titles Part 1" From Batman V. Superman: Dawn Of Justice
Composed By Hans Zimmer, Robert Badami, Melissa Muik And Mark Andrew Wherry

 

"The Warden" From Batman V. Superman: Dawn Of Justice 
Composed By Hans Zimmer And Steve Mazzaro

 

These people contributed significantly to BvS in some of the most famous pieces.

 

Where is their credit?

 

Borat 2 today got nominated for a screenplay oscar and had 9 people credited. 

 

It is only fair that if 9 people worked on a film score, the opening music by credit has 9 people.

 

 

[TSMefford 1,509]

10 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Junkie says in the interview, he still worked on MOS - where was his credit?

 

Great point. Here's what it says on IMDb:

Junkie XL: Man of Steel (additional music and rhythm design) / (conductor - uncredited)

 

I honestly didn't know that he'd worked on it. Probably because it just says "Hans Zimmer" on the cover.

 

Look. I'm not going to lie and say I hate every single cue that RCP has ever put out. That's not really true, but I find it increasingly annoying that they more commonly ignore the teamwork that people praise them for. If the score was basically written by everyone on the staff of composers, just brand it as "Remote Control Productions", but I suppose that's not as marketable as Hans Zimmer.

 

Just because Zimmer's RCP group can keep up with the hustle and bustle of Hollywood now a days by using 6 people constantly, it doesn't mean it should be commended. If anything it tells me that everything should slow the hell down so these guys can dedicate the time to make even greater music and use their distinctive voices, which commonly come out more once they move on to more solo oriented projects.

 

Teamwork is cool and fun and can produce great results, but if I were to work on a group project back in school and slapped my name on it while putting the rest of the team in the footnotes then I'd get chastised for it.

[Edmilson 7,449]

1 hour ago, The Big Man said:

 

Why not? Does he have to only score Spielberg movies and blockbusters? A small scale drama wouldn't hurt... or don't they make those at all anymore?

 

A lot of small scale dramas are on the race for Best Picture of this year's Oscars, but neither of them were scored by Williams because their young directors of today don't know or don't want him. They'd rather work with some indie composers that will write minimalist and atmospheric scores that film critics will love and hail as "innovative", "fresh" and "modern".

 

And, with almost all blockbusters being scored by Junkie XL, Lorne Balfe and others Zimmer's apprentices, the only things left for Williams are... Star Wars and Spielberg. And maaaaaaybe Indy.

[Mephariel 451]

2 hours ago, TSMefford said:

Sigh, Good grief. You really have no idea what I'm saying do you? Let's unpack this.

 

 

I can't tell you how many scores out there from RCP that have co-composers that are NOT on credited on the cover. Most commonly, Hans Zimmer gets cover credit and you barely ever know that other people worked on it. Even Amazing Spider-Man 2 lists the team of people he worked with as "The Magnificent Six" (featuring the marketable names of Pharrell Williams and Johnny Marr).

 

How about Angels and Demons? Cover only lists Hans Zimmer with solos by Joshua Bell. Meanwhile Lorne Balfe, Atli Orvarsson, Geoff Zanelli, Mel Wesson, and Nick Glennie-Smith are all listed as composers on various cues.

 

 

I...what? They could each be off composing their OWN scores. Instead they're all working on ONE score together. What are you on about?

 

 

You realize that most scores RCP does are big blockbusters right? Those are almost always a huge time crunch. It's VERY common that Zimmer scores have 4-6 composers on them. I just listed two above: The Amazing Spider-Man, Angels and Demons. Here's some more for Zimmer specifically:

• The Simpsons Movie (6 Additional Composers, only Zimmer is credited on the cover)
• The Da Vinci Code (4 Additional Composers)
• Pirates of the Caribbean (Basically all of them, which you mentioned already)
• Man of Steel (3-4 Additional Composers)
• Inferno (4 Additional Composers)
• Batman V Superman (4 Additional Composers)

Shall I go on?

 

 

That's a completely different thing. In that case those are two composers that always work together and are always listed as co-composers especially on the cover. In that case, they are commonly doing equal work on the score. There's a big difference between saying a score was composed by Trent Reznor & Atticus Ross and it literally JUST being those two and saying a score was written by Hans Zimmer when there are anywhere from 2-6 or even 7 other people attached to it that are not listed with him. Who knows how much actual work each person contributed to that score?

 

 

At least I know that when a Williams score comes out there's a lot time and dedication from exclusively one guy put into this score. 

 

Are the RCP composers successful? Clearly. But they're successful in the modern day industry where movies are pumped out so fast that you need a team of 5-7 people to keep up with it. Who's score even is it then? Does that not dilute the music to have to also pump it out so fast? They might as well just start marketing all their scores as "Music by Remote Control Productions".

 

You're essentially arguing that quantity and speed is the marker for success and skill and that is simply not always true. When you are dealing with doing things fast and doing more things in a year...the quality itself tends to suffer. And that is my issue with RCP scores. They're almost never as good as they could be and it makes a lot of sense why a lot of that stuff sounds the same. It probably makes it easier to pump them out.

 

I am going to try to tackle this one point at a time because I think you completely missed the mark on what we were discussing. It is like the point of discussion literally flew over your head. I wasn’t talking about who should get composing credit. That is an entire topic that we can discuss. First, the original discussion was in response to Ulyssesian who said “isn't that what most composers do? Write a score... BY THEMSELVES?” That point is false. Composers today rarely write by themselves. They have collaborators. This true whether it is Zimmer, Giacchino, Tyler, Beltrami, etc. So let’s get that out of the way.

 

Second, let’s tackle your last point first. You are right: when a Williams score comes out, there’s lot of time and dedication from one guy. That is why Williams is one of the all time greats (imo the greatest). What does that have to do with our conversation? Nothing. Williams isn’t an active composer outside of passion projects.  Meanwhile for the rest of the competitive composing world, people are collaborating. And one of the reasons is practicality. As Jonathan Broxton said:

 

“No. Every single composer with any decently-long career will have used a ghostwriter at some point, simply because post-production schedules sometimes force you to. It's just a matter of practicality - sometimes it's just literally physically impossible for one person to write all the music required in the time allotted by the schedule. You just have to get the job done.”

 

There is no denying the new reality. This is one of the last places on earth that still thinks composing in film is some sort of Mozart-sitting-on-the-piano-alone job. It is not. And it hasn’t been for a long time.

 

Then let’s address your point about quantity and speed equals success. That is true for every industry on the planet, not just composing. Have you ever worked in a competitive industry that makes products? The goal is to make the most, do the fastest while maintaining quality. Now you may think RCP scores are not good, and that is fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But their products are good enough to attract Nolan, Howard, Scott, Jenkins, etc. So they are good enough for the highest level of clients. Right? That is why RCP is successful.

 

That is also true for Beltrami, Tyler, Giacchino, you name it. They are also striving for the same thing. That is why they have a their own teams as well. Now you may argue that those guys make better music than RCP, but that is your subjective measure and outside the topic of discussion.

 

Lastly, your point about composing credits. While debating who should be on the front cover is an important topic, it has nothing to do with what we were discussing. The question was how many co-composers are on a team, not who gets composing credits on the front cover. The only thing I will say on this topic is I am fine demanding that Zimmer put everyone on the cover, as long as you hold all the other composers to the same standard. For example, Elfman did not put Pinar Toprak on the cover of Justice League (nor his two other additional composers). Likewise, Giacchino did not put Chris Nightingale on the cover for doing additional music for Dr. Strange. John Powell didn’t put his two additional composers on the cover either for Call of the Wild. Bear McCreary haven’t put ANYONE on the cover of his album at all and never get criticized for it. So as long as you hold all the other composers to the same standard, I am ok with what you are saying.

 

So finally, let’s get back to the topic of Zimmer and co-composers. In the past 5 years, Zimmer have work with:

 

Wonder Woman 1984 – Mazzaro, Fleming

Hillbilly Elegy – Fleming (Front cover credit)

The SpongeBob Movie – Sponge on the Run – Mazzaro (Front cover credit)

Rebuilding Paradise – Balfe (Front cover credit)

Seven Worlds, One Planet – Jacob Shea (Front cover credit)

The Lion King – Mazzaro, Fleming

Dark Phoenix – Fleming, Mazzaro

Widows – None

Believer – Fleming, Kawczynski

Blade Runner 2049 – Wallfisch (front cover credit)

Blue Planet II – Fleming, Shea (Front cover credit)

Dunkirk – Balfe, Kawczynski, Page, Ramgotra, Wallfisch

The Boss Baby – Mazzaro (front cover credit)

Hidden Figures – Pharrell, Wallfisch (Both front cover credit)

Inferno – Harvey, Kawczynski, Mazzaro, Mounsey, Pastorelli, Tuller

Batman v Superman – Junkie XL (front cover credit), Mazzaro, Wallfisch, Whitacre, Kawczynski

Kung Fu Panda 3 – Balfe, Mounsey

Planet Earth II – Shea, Klebe (Front cover credit)

 

Out of 18 projects, Zimmer only worked with 5+ composers 3 times. And he gave front cover credit on 10 of those projects. The notion that he worked with 5-6 composers every project (and never gives front cover credit) is simply not true.

 

Now let’s look at Marco Beltrami’s resume for the past couple years:

 

Chaos Walking – Hankins

Love and Monsters – Sanders, Trumpp (Front cover credit)

The Way I see it – Sanders & Roberts (Front cover credit)

A Quiet Place Part II – Davis, Hankins, Roberts

Under Water – Roberts (front cover credit)

Scary Stories to tell in the Dark – Drubich (front cover credit)

Ford v Ferrari – Sanders (Front cover credit)

Long Shot – Levine (Front cover credit)

Buzzsaw – Sanders (Front cover credit), Trumpp

Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil and Vile – Smith (Front cover credit), Drubich

A Quiet Place – Roberts, Trumpp, Nightingale

 

Again, basically the same Zimmer model. The only difference is a smaller team which is expected. He gave front cover credit a bit more than Zimmer, but he also left a lot of composers out too.

 

Should I do Brian Tyler for you or do you get the picture?

 

If you think Zimmer should give more front cover credit...fine That is difference discussion for another day. But Zimmer worked with 2-3 composers most of the time just like Beltrami. And just like Tyler. And Mothersbaugh. It is the industry. Not your fantasy bubble, but the real world. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, TSMefford said:

 

Great point. Here's what it says on IMDb:

Junkie XL: Man of Steel (additional music and rhythm design) / (conductor - uncredited)

 

I honestly didn't know that he'd worked on it. Probably because it just says "Hans Zimmer" on the cover.

 

Look. I'm not going to lie and say I hate every single cue that RCP has ever put out. That's not really true, but I find it increasingly annoying that they more commonly ignore the teamwork that people praise them for. If the score was basically written by everyone on the staff of composers, just brand it as "Remote Control Productions", but I suppose that's not as marketable as Hans Zimmer.

 

Just because Zimmer's RCP group can keep up with the hustle and bustle of Hollywood now a days by using 6 people constantly, it doesn't mean it should be commended. If anything it tells me that everything should slow the hell down so these guys can dedicate the time to make even greater music and use their distinctive voices, which commonly come out more once they move on to more solo oriented projects.

 

Teamwork is cool and fun and can produce great results, but if I were to work on a group project back in school and slapped my name on it while putting the rest of the team in the footnotes then I'd get chastised for it.

 

Everything you said applies to Bear McCreary, Tyler, Beltrami, and all those other composers with teams as well. Their teams are smaller maybe because they are less successful. But if you don't like the teamwork model, then just listen to John Williams and be done with it. Cause that is the reality of modern day scoring.

 

And if you are going to demand Zimmer to recognize his teammates under your standards, then put everyone else in that standard.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Somehow McCreary and Beltrami yield much better results. Maybe they hire composers with more talent.

[TSMefford 1,509]

Wow. Alright. I well understood the point of what we're talking about. I was responding to things directly mentioned by you in your post where you seemed to misunderstand what I was saying initially, that's why I quoted each segment and responded. Just because I chose to respond to certain things in your post doesn't mean that I missed what the overall discussion was about. I read your post and had specific thoughts on certain things you mentioned. I chose not to respond directly to the bigger issues because it's a LOT to cover in my eyes. Instead, I opted for a direct response to the more specific points in your post. Responding directly to things that you mentioned yourself. The only reason I started discussing front cover credits is because you mentioned it as if it was something that Zimmer and everyone who does this always does. That's not true at all. That's why I went into that because you mentioned it. I'm well aware what the discussion was about, because I can read. Thanks.

 

Now, if I have to get into the bigger topic at hand or else I get treated like an idiot. Fine.

 

1 hour ago, Mephariel said:

No. Every single composer with any decently-long career will have used a ghostwriter at some point, simply because post-production schedules sometimes force you to. It's just a matter of practicality - sometimes it's just literally physically impossible for one person to write all the music required in the time allotted by the schedule. You just have to get the job done.”

 

I'm well aware that this is the reality now. Most of us are. I mentioned several times that I'm not a huge fan of it, which means I know it exists. Perhaps I was too focused on RCP and didn't also directly critique everyone who does it. That's my bad, but yes I am aware of how it works. Again. Thanks.

 

From my perception, it has definitely been going on for awhile, but RCP has sort of lead the charge on that sort of thing. And many of the composers you keep mentioning have some connection to that. Here's what I'm saying so that it is crystal clear: RCP seemed to be the frontrunner in this collaboration, score by committee, mentality and basically speeding up the workflow. That made them very attractive to studios who want to make them as quick and as painlessly as possible as well as please as many people as possible. Other composers have had to start doing it to keep up with them. So yes, Marco Beltrami works with people, James Newton Howard works with people. Tyler works with people. Giacchino works with people now as well. That disappoints me. It doesn't have to just be Hans Zimmer that's doing it for it to disappoint me.

 

I have far more respect for composers who can complete the work on their own (which it seems now that Junkie XL is capable of, so good for him), sometimes even within a similar timeframe, and I find that it seems to result in better scores, in my opinion. Less cooks in the kitchen. I also don't find that I personally would ever feel comfortable slapping my name on something and taking all the credit if I was not the only person doing the work. That very much rubs me the wrong way and I'd prefer people credit who they work with on the front covers. Zimmer is not the only offender, but he is for sure, one of the biggest ones as far as I've seen. That is very much an issue I take with the culture of collaboration. If it's collaborative then list your collaborators. That's why I focused on that, because it's a very obvious issue I have that is part of the bigger issue.

 

1 hour ago, Mephariel said:

Then let’s address your point about quantity and speed equals success. That is true for every industry on the planet, not just composing. Have you ever worked in a competitive industry that makes products? The goal is to make the most, do the fastest while maintaining quality. Now you may think RCP scores are not good, and that is fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But their products are good enough to attract Nolan, Howard, Scott, Jenkins, etc. So they are good enough for the highest level of clients. Right? That is why RCP is successful.

 

This may be considered too political...I'm not sure. It depends on how it's perceived, so if I need to remove this or just delete this post altogether I can. No qualms from me on that. 

 

I know that it's true for most industries and I think it's bullshit. Yeah, I have and do work in a competitive industry and yes, I am aware that if you can do work fast and maintain some level of quality then the business rewards you. I experience that most days. I'm critiquing that very mentality. I do think that if we slowed down a little bit then quality would go up. I know many projects of mine that could've turned out better had I had a bit more time. So why not everyone slow down and take a little more time? Because then we can't make more money faster. It's a very business first approach of looking at art.

 

If great business is your primary function, then great art won't be. Great art by it's very nature doesn't please everybody and takes risks. Risks and not pleasing as many as possible is also bad for business. So when you make art into a business you have to walk a very fine line. I found nowadays we've ventured far more into the business side of the film industry. I suppose I used to perceive the film industry as trying to capitalize on great art, but now it seems like it's just trying to use business to make any other product. Maybe it's because I've gotten older, but (and I don't know about you or anyone else on this board) I have found myself loving and looking forward to current crops films and film scores less as time goes on. I remember years where there were tons of scores or films to be excited about and now? Well. I buy less and less of the new stuff, because when I hear it in the film or even stream it somewhere first... it's just not interesting to me anymore. It doesn't speak to me anymore. I have even more fondness for these expansions of older film scores and rediscovering scores that I still love, even including scores by Hans Zimmer. But Hans Zimmer doesn't seem to make music I love anymore. A lot don't. Williams still does. I don't want to seem melodramatic or anything. I do still find stuff I like, but it's definitely far less common now for me than when I remember to years ago.

 

4 hours ago, Mephariel said:

JWfan Forum is probably one of the last places on earth that still romanticize film music composing. The people here actually believes that everyone besides RCP is writing pen and paper like Williams. Must be a warmest fake bubble to be in. 

 

To pull this point back up from one of your previous posts. Yeah, we romanticize it, because we used to get absolutely incredible music that was complex, beautiful art with so much to say, even in the context of the business of Hollywood. It felt more like an artform and so we treated it as such. As far as pen and paper. I don't think anyone here is under the assumption that everyone outside of RCP writes only with pen, paper, and piano, so no need to generalize and treat us all like idiots. Giacchino does synth demos, Desplat does demos, Powell does demos just to name a few for you. Most people write shit in the computer. We're even getting scores from composers I like that are using synth orchestra due to the pandemic (I believe, but I could be wrong) We're all well aware, thanks. Again.

 

As far as why I don't care for RCP specifically? Well, again, it seems like they're the ones that spearheaded this whole quick and mass production of film scores state we're in and also seem to be the largest offender of not crediting people properly among other things. Plus, in my opinion, their "product" is diluted a lot. Very little of what they make resonates with me. Someone like Bear McCreary on the other hand has interested me and spoken to me with his scores more often recently. Why? I don't know. It's subjective. I imagine the rigorous commitment to being a film score shop may have a little to do with it, but that can't be fully it since Bear also "collaborates". I don't know man. 

 

There. I tried. I don't think we'll come to any more of an understanding, because we both seem to be frustrating to each other, but those are my thoughts as flawed as you may find them to be.

 

[Mephariel 451]

22 minutes ago, The Big Man said:

Somehow McCreary and Beltrami yield much better results. Maybe they hire composers with more talent.

 

Hmmm...opinions are opinions. But you know who James Cameron is? He is the visionary director with enough musical sensibilities to collaborate with James Horner. You who who he put as Horner's equal and part of the three "modern day masters?" Zimmer and Williams. Imagine that. Just last year, Jenkins called Zimmer the greatest composer of our time. And not to mention Zimmer is far more acclaimed, not just Oscars, Grammys, Golden Globes...but also IFMCA. Inside and outside the film music industry. In the Classic FM's 2020 Hall of Fame, FM listeners and Radio times readers were asked to vote on the greatest film scores of all time, Zimmer appeared the second most times, only after John Williams. Beltrami? Zero. Zimmer also have by far the most Spotify monthly listeners at 6+ million. Beltrami? 206,000. 

 

Again, opinions are opinions. Everyone has one. But in every measure, from critical acclaim, to director testimony to mass popularity, Zimmer is ahead of Beltrami. 

 

I am not going to talk about McCreary since he is one of my favorites.  

[TSMefford 1,509]

Good for him. I don't know how he's managed it. After Angels and Demons I really have just not found much I like about Zimmer's work anymore. He did honestly used to be near the top for me. I don't know what the general audience or these creatives see that I don't, but it's just not there for me. As an example, I found Rupert Gregson Williams' Wonder Woman score to be immensely superior to 1984 in every way.

 

His music used to give me that feeling of awe that people still seem to have with him, but it feels so hollow now. Lion King and DaVinci Code resonate far differently for me than Man of Steel or Interstellar or Batman V Superman and even WW1984. I truly can't say exactly what it is. Some of it is how the mixing and mastering squashes any power out of it that it had, but even the compositions just don't do it for me anymore. That's all I can really say.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

11 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

Hmmm...opinions are opinions. But you know who James Cameron is? He is the visionary director with enough musical sensibilities to collaborate with James Horner. You who who he put as Horner's equal and part of the three "modern day masters?" Zimmer and Williams. Imagine that. Just last year, Jenkins called Zimmer the greatest composer of our time. And not to mention Zimmer is far more acclaimed, not just Oscars, Grammys, Golden Globes...but also IFMCA. Inside and outside the film music industry. In the Classic FM's 2020 Hall of Fame, FM listeners and Radio times readers were asked to vote on the greatest film scores of all time, Zimmer appeared the second most times, only after John Williams. Beltrami? Zero. Zimmer also have by far the most Spotify monthly listeners at 6+ million. Beltrami? 206,000. 

 

Again, opinions are opinions. Everyone has one. But in every measure, from critical acclaim, to director testimony to mass popularity, Zimmer is ahead of Beltrami. 

 

I am not going to talk about McCreary since he is one of my favorites.  

 

I guess there's no accounting for poor taste. Pretty good racket he's got going there considering he can't read music.

[TSMefford 1,509]

1 hour ago, Mephariel said:

But if you don't like the teamwork model, then just listen to John Williams and be done with it. Cause that is the reality of modern day scoring.

 

And if you are going to demand Zimmer to recognize his teammates under your standards, then put everyone else in that standard.

 

I missed this in my giant ass response, but on this note. I don't dislike scores automatically because of the "teamwork model". Some people manage to pull it off. I'm not going to refuse to listen to a score because it was done via teamwork. I just find that typically those scores are quite diluted and are lacking heart that I can connect to, but that's not always true. So of course I'm not going to only listen to Williams.

 

Also, yes, I agree. Any composer that works with multiple composers should have them credited on the cover. I never meant to imply that I only hold Zimmer to that standard. It bothers me across the board.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

Maybe I have a romantic idea of film scoring as said above but I am baffled what are 8 people doing on a film score?

 

I will add this quote from Diane Warren

https://www.indiewire.com/2021/03/diane-warren-best-song-oscar-nominations-interview-1234620495/

Quote

Warren loves working alone, rarely letting anyone besides her closest collaborators into the secret world of her studio. “A lot of times you see nine and 10 writers on some of these songs these days. I’m like, ‘What are you actually doing on that song?’ Someone came up with a hi hat pattern in the bridge. Someone got coffee. I’m not really one of those people,” she said.

 

It's like a fucking writers room on a TV show. 20 people sitting in a meeting room each with individual instruments doodling. And then one is like GUY GUYS CHECK THIS OUT! 

Plays something.

ISN"T THIS COOL????????

OMG TOTALLY AWESOME!!!111!! ZOMGZ EPIC PWNED!

 

I am being facetious but jesus christ.

 

What is it, individual scenes? Or what? Seems like such an arbitrary way to score the movie.

 

Though I must say I am not opposed to the idea itself. The greatest film score ever written in my opinion had multiple composers assisting Max Steiner to finish Gone With The Wind on time.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

1 minute ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Though I must say I am not opposed to the idea itself. The greatest film score ever written in my opinion had multiple composers assisting Max Steiner to finish Gone With The Wind on time.

 

They probably had actual formal musical training and could effectively craft additional music with similar expertise and finesse as Steiner himself. Zimmer's mob I usually get the impression they're academically hopeless at music and are just a bunch of elementary-skilled keyboard programmers.

[Mephariel 451]

Quote

 

I'm well aware that this is the reality now. Most of us are. I mentioned several times that I'm not a huge fan of it, which means I know it exists. Perhaps I was too focused on RCP and didn't also directly critique everyone who does it. That's my bad, but yes I am aware of how it works. Again. Thanks.

 

From my perception, it has definitely been going on for awhile, but RCP has sort of lead the charge on that sort of thing. And many of the composers you keep mentioning have some connection to that. Here's what I'm saying so that it is crystal clear: RCP seemed to be the frontrunner in this collaboration, score by committee, mentality and basically speeding up the workflow. That made them very attractive to studios who want to make them as quick and as painlessly as possible as well as please as many people as possible. Other composers have had to start doing it to keep up with them. So yes, Marco Beltrami works with people, James Newton Howard works with people. Tyler works with people. Giacchino works with people now as well. That disappoints me. It doesn't have to just be Hans Zimmer that's doing it for it to disappoint me.

 

 

I agree with you that Zimmer and RCP lead the charge. Totally. For better or worse. I will say that Zimmer probably saw what the industry will become. I remember another topic, someone insisted to me that Zimmer was a bad composer because he doesn't always score to picture. He start developing the score during the script stage. The thing, Ludwig Goransson did the same thing on Tenet. Giacchino said the got so excited he wrote the Batman theme right after he got the job. Elfman said in an interview he is already starting work on Dr. Strange 2. That is the modern industry. You are doing 5-6 scores a year in competitive environment and people producers and directors wants to know what the score sounds like. They want to use music as demos, etc. The industry is rapidly changing. 

 

Quote

I have far more respect for composers who can complete the work on their own (which it seems now that Junkie XL is capable of, so good for him), sometimes even within a similar timeframe, and I find that it seems to result in better scores, in my opinion. Less cooks in the kitchen. I also don't find that I personally would ever feel comfortable slapping my name on something and taking all the credit if I was not the only person doing the work. That very much rubs me the wrong way and I'd prefer people credit who they work with on the front covers. Zimmer is not the only offender, but he is for sure, one of the biggest ones as far as I've seen. That is very much an issue I take with the culture of collaboration. If it's collaborative then list your collaborators. That's why I focused on that, because it's a very obvious issue I have that is part of the bigger issue.

 

I have to say though, do you really think any composer isn't good enough to complete a score? Zimmer composed Interstellar by himself and The Last Samurai. But forget about Zimmer. I seriously can't name a single composer that is actively working in Hollywood that isn't talented enough to complete a score. The question is, should them? And is that the best strategy? And don't have any issue with you demanding more credit reporting from Zimmer. I just want a standard that applies to everyone.  

 

Quote

If great business is your primary function, then great art won't be. Great art by it's very nature doesn't please everybody and takes risks. Risks and not pleasing as many as possible is also bad for business. So when you make art into a business you have to walk a very fine line. I found nowadays we've ventured far more into the business side of the film industry. I suppose I used to perceive the film industry as trying to capitalize on great art, but now it seems like it's just trying to use business to make any other product. Maybe it's because I've gotten older, but (and I don't know about you or anyone else on this board) I have found myself loving and looking forward to current crops films and film scores less as time goes on. I remember years where there were tons of scores or films to be excited about and now? Well. I buy less and less of the new stuff, because when I hear it in the film or even stream it somewhere first... it's just not interesting to me anymore. It doesn't speak to me anymore. I have even more fondness for these expansions of older film scores and rediscovering scores that I still love, even including scores by Hans Zimmer. But Hans Zimmer doesn't seem to make music I love anymore. A lot don't. Williams still does. I don't want to seem melodramatic or anything. I do still find stuff I like, but it's definitely far less common now for me than when I remember to years ago.

 

Taking risks is important yes. But I found it ironic that the film music community is saying this when so many composers get routinely ripped apart for using sound design, electronics, and moving away from the orchestra to score films. And every single project, people want the same composers: Silvestri, Young, Arnold, Howard, Elfman. I mean do people really want risk taking? The film music community wants the same thing over and over again. I participate in Filmtracks annual best of the year community awards, and if you look at the list, everything is sci-fi/fantasy orchestral scoring. No matter how well a score applies to a political thriller, go luck getting a score like that on the top 3 or 4.  

 

I actually agree with you a lot on your other points. Not necessary about Zimmer, but the fact that I don't get excited with some of the newer composers. Think about this: we already lost Horner. If Williams, Howard, Zimmer, Elfman, Beltrami, Doyle, Shore, Silvestri, and all the other big names from the 80s/90s retired today, would you even care about film music anymore? I would, but my anticipation would be a lot lower. The newer generation of composers just doesn't do it for me a lot of the time. There are exceptions like George Kallis, for example, but I don't see any of them being a titan. Maybe we are still new in the century and the next Williams is around the corner. But I am not seeing it. 

 

Quote

To pull this point back up from one of your previous posts. Yeah, we romanticize it, because we used to get absolutely incredible music that was complex, beautiful art with so much to say, even in the context of the business of Hollywood. It felt more like an artform and so we treated it as such. As far as pen and paper. I don't think anyone here is under the assumption that everyone outside of RCP writes only with pen, paper, and piano, so no need to generalize and treat us all like idiots. Giacchino does synth demos, Desplat does demos, Powell does demos just to name a few for you. Most people write shit in the computer. We're even getting scores from composers I like that are using synth orchestra due to the pandemic (I believe, but I could be wrong) We're all well aware, thanks. Again.

 

I think we still get incredible complex music. Just not always from Hollywood mainstream. A lot of international scores, especially those from Asia are more traditional. 

 

Quote

As far as why I don't care for RCP specifically? Well, again, it seems like they're the ones that spearheaded this whole quick and mass production of film scores state we're in and also seem to be the largest offender of not crediting people properly among other things. Plus, in my opinion, their "product" is diluted a lot. Very little of what they make resonates with me. Someone like Bear McCreary on the other hand has interested me and spoken to me with his scores more often recently. Why? I don't know. It's subjective. I imagine the rigorous commitment to being a film score shop may have a little to do with it, but that can't be fully it since Bear also "collaborates". I don't know man. 

 

I get it. 

20 minutes ago, The Big Man said:

 

They probably had actual formal musical training and could effectively craft additional music with similar expertise and finesse as Steiner himself. Zimmer's mob I usually get the impression they're academically hopeless at music and are just a bunch of elementary-skilled keyboard programmers.

 

Or...or...

 

We are just film music fans who love Zimmer's scores in and out of the film. Sometimes life is not that complicated.

 

Who are my 3 favorites composers of all time? Zimmer, Horner, Williams. Why? I love Williams for his mastery, Zimmer for his power, and Horner for his romanticism. Combined they cover every spectrum of film music. There is more to music than just the technical.

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

The only Zimmer score I really like is Broken Arrow, and that's only because the main theme reminds me of Twin Peaks. Guys like Mark Mancina and Harold Faltermeyer did the power anthem schtick better than Zimmer anyway. Zim just got lucky.

[TSMefford 1,509]

2 hours ago, Mephariel said:

The question is, should they? And is that the best strategy?

 

So let's talk about that. What I'm about to say applies to any industry, but we're using film scoring as an example because it's relevant here and is especially an issue with creative positions.

 

In my opinion, if you work in a system where you hire a world-class composer to do a film, but said composer doesn't feel like they alone can complete the full score in the amount of time allotted and feels the need to bring on additional people to help finish it just to "get the job done" to quote the composer you brought up earlier. What does that say about that system? What it says to me is that your system is moving too fast if even the top composers can not keep up with it on their own. And when the mentality is to just "get the job done" it also tells me that getting the score finished is the main concern where, in my opinion, story and the quality of the music should be the top priority. If they are being distracted from those things then it lessens the music and it tells me shit is being churned out too fast. And it is.

 

2 hours ago, Mephariel said:

I remember another topic, someone insisted to me that Zimmer was a bad composer because he doesn't always score to picture.

 

Okay I have to address this one too, because whoever said that is wrong, on even a pure factual level. Him writing to a script or writing music before the film is shot is something extremely common. Quite often a film even necessitates that music exist from the composer prior to shooting so that they can shoot with said music. John Williams had to write Double Trouble for Azkaban before they shot the sequence. Plus, almost every composer I know comes up with pieces or suites of ideas before seeing a finished film and scoring it to picture. That's just part of the process. I would not think anyone is a bad composer for doing that. 

 

2 hours ago, Mephariel said:

I found it ironic that the film music community is saying this when so many composers get routinely ripped apart for using sound design, electronics, and moving away from the orchestra to score films.

 

I think my issue there is when it is done without consideration to the story. Does that make sense? For example, Hans Zimmer's choice of drums to represent Superman in Man of Steel doesn't bother me, because it's a "risk", but because it doesn't make sense to me, even when he explains it. I'll go on record as saying that there are scores that use electronics and sound design that I do like, but I don't like all of them. I suppose there's two parts to the risk thing I mentioned. There's actually taking the risk and there's also doing it because it's the right thing to do for the story. As another example, Last Jedi can probably be considered a risk, and even though I like some of the things it did, many of the risks (to me) don't make sense for the story or characters and therefore isn't paid off. I suppose that's why it's a risk, but you shouldn't take risks for risks sake. You should take risks to make something better and somethings basically require risks to do it right. 

 

Honestly these days I feel like doing a traditional orchestral score is more of a risk. Lol. I don't agree with it, but mass audiences are more used to the sound design and Zimmer style scores now it seems. Some people consider Williams' scores to be too intrusive.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Junkie League

[HunterTech 994]

On 3/13/2021 at 8:39 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

Reprises/Tracked music from MOS and BVS below per leaks

 

"I Just Wanted To Help" From Man Of Steel 
Composed By Hans Zimmer 

 

"First Flight" From Man Of Steel 
Composed By Hans Zimmer 

 

"Who Are You" From Man Of Steel 
Composed By Hans Zimmer 

 

 

"The Girl" From Batman V. Superman: Dawn Of Justice 
Composed By Hans Zimmer, Robert Badami, Melissa Muik, Mark Andrew Wherry And Steve Mazzaro 
 
"Wishlist" From Batman V. Superman: Dawn Of Justice 
Composed By Hans Zimmer And Benjamin Wallfisch 

 

"Main Titles Part 1" From Batman V. Superman: Dawn Of Justice
Composed By Hans Zimmer, Robert Badami, Melissa Muik And Mark Andrew Wherry

 

"The Warden" From Batman V. Superman: Dawn Of Justice 
Composed By Hans Zimmer And Steve Mazzaro

 

MOS References - 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20819-the-complete-cue-lists-thread/page/15/&tab=comments#comment-1101392

 

http://cuebycue.blogspot.com/2016/04/man-of-steel-zimmer-2013.html

 

BVS References - 

 

http://dccomicsmovie.com/batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice-complete-soundtrack-unveiled/

 

Now that the score is actually out, I combed through the Spotify credits, and can confirm that indeed these are all legit reprises of MoS/BvS material.

 

In the order of how it's listed in the post above (as in it should correspond with each individual credit):

[MoS material]

The Center Will Not Hold, Twenty Centuries of Stony Sleep

A Splinter from the Thorn That Pricked You

I Teach You, the Overman

Underworld

Superman Rising, Pt. 1 / A Book of Hours

Ungrund

The House of Belonging

Earthling

Superman Rising, Pt. 2 / Immovable

 

[BvS Wishlist / The Warden]

Your Own House Turned to Ashes

 

[BvS Main Title Pt. I]

All of You Undisturbed Cities

 

[BvS The Girl]

Wonder Woman Defending / And What Rough Beast

Wonder Woman, a Call to Stand / A World Awakened

[Arpy 4,145]

@MepharielAnime scores have been better than most Hollywood scores lately, more inventive, expressive. The traditional film score is almost dead nowadays, it's now a subset of sound design.

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

That's a long score. Not sure I'll succeed to reach the end...

[MedigoScan 324]

So far the material that stands out to me is mostly related to Cyborg and Wonderwoman.

I can only hear the new villain theme so many times before it all blends together. But then again thats the curse of releasing a full movie soundtrack.

 

How we Achieve Ourselves has a nice reprise of one of BVS' unreleased tracks.

 

Also random synths Monument Builder, which really draws a lot from Man of Steel to the extent that I am surprised Zimmer is not co-credited for it.

[Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433]

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

This seems to be the concert presentation of the main theme.

 

 

Dunno if it is in the movie.

 

It is a good theme I think. It doesn't have the sophisticated orchestration that we expect from the old masters. But it is an attempt at a melody that can be used to anchor a film.

[bored 309]