HOOK Ultimate Edition - MUSIC Discussion

[Jay 37,369]

Understandable!

[Holko 9,529]

Not to me! The OST version is much choppier.

 

 

What I find kinda weird is that this is a huge, complex score with lots of themes, I've only watched the movie 3 times and heard the whole thing 4-6 times, all of those listens being in the last 4 months, and I already feel like I know it very well and largely grasp the structure. JW made it easily graspable despite its scale!

[bollemanneke 3,349]

My ideal Never-Feast version would insert Cornucopia, but then continue the OST version unmodified. Best of both worlds.

[Jay 37,369]

I've heard an edit that does exactly that.  It's nice, sort of works as a concert arrangement, especially if you lop off the Cutting The Coconut cue

[Faleel 5,355]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

I've heard an edit that does exactly that.  It's nice, sort of works as a concert arrangement, especially if you lop off the Cutting The Coconut cue

Are they actually seperate cues?

[Jay 37,369]

The track The Neverfeast contains the cue Cornucopia followed by the cue Cutting The Coconut.

[bollemanneke 3,349]

Oh, really? So the beginning of the cue, everything pre-food, is also a re-recording? I always assumed they just re-did that little sniplet the moment Peter sees the food.

[Jay 37,369]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying.

 

The OST album track The Neverfeast contains the cue Cornucopia followed by the cue Cutting The Coconut.

 

The LLL track The Neverfeast (Film Version) contains the cue Cornucopia with an Insert inserted, followed by the cue Cutting The Coconut.

 

Does that clear things up?

[bollemanneke 3,349]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying.

 

The OST album track The Neverfeast contains the cue Cornucopia followed by the cue Cutting The Coconut.

 

The LLL track The Neverfeast (Film Version) contains the cue Cornucopia with an Insert inserted, followed by the cue Cutting The Coconut.

 

Does that clear things up?

Oh, yes it does, sorry, I was mixing things up. I had forgotten that Cornucopia itself was a cue as well and not just the insert.

[Jay 37,369]

Ah, gotcha!

[Trent B 337]

I honestly love this release. I am glad they were finally able to get the session tapes that had all of "Ultimate War" untouched including the versions of "To War" and "Crossed Swords" with their film inserts in the main score.

This set is definitely worth the double dipping as it pretty much makes the other one obsolete.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

 Just as @Chewy was able to use reverse phasing to isolate the choral overlay from "The Capture (Alternate)" on the expanded Amistad album, I was able to isolate the 2 bars of choir that were omitted from the album version of "From Mermaids to Lost Boys." Not a substantial piece of music obviously, but still kind of fun to hear as a curiosity.

 

[Jay 37,369]

Wow that's cool!

[Goldfingers 126]

There's something I've been thinking about for a long time but I've never really tried. 
But I have the feeling that it would be possible to mix the Lost Boys shouting 'Rufio' on the track 'Enter Rufio'. Sometimes, when I watch the scene, I feel like their shouts could follow or be incorporated into the rhythm of the track. Am I the only one who has this sensation?

[oierem 152]

On 26/03/2024 at 8:42 PM, Jay said:

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying.

 

The OST album track The Neverfeast contains the cue Cornucopia followed by the cue Cutting The Coconut.

 

The LLL track The Neverfeast (Film Version) contains the cue Cornucopia with an Insert inserted, followed by the cue Cutting The Coconut.

 

Does that clear things up?

Do you know the exact ending point of the Insert? I always thought that it ended when it segues into the original cue material, but now I'm not sure, because I realize the original cue is shortened (I always thought it was a film edit).

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

1 hour ago, oierem said:

Do you know the exact ending point of the Insert? I always thought that it ended when it segues into the original cue material, but now I'm not sure, because I realize the original cue is shortened (I always thought it was a film edit).

 

1:11-2:15

 

Here's the phase-inverted waveform as proof:

 

 

(The bit after the end of the insert is faded-in on the track with the insert, that's why there's still visible waveform at that point)

[Brando 1,864]

Can you post an audio clip of that? I’m curious to hear it separated from the rest of the cue on its own. I know what it sounds like but by itself would be interesting.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

9 minutes ago, Brando said:

Can you post an audio clip of that? I’m curious to hear it separated from the rest of the cue on its own. I know what it sounds like but by itself would be interesting.

 

Sure, but the as-is edit I did in that screenshot didn't remove the original bit, so that got mixed in with the insert in that version.

 

Just give me a second...

 

EDIT: Well, that fade-in back to the original cue is making the track really uncooperative, but here's my best attempt for the time being:

 

[Brando 1,864]

7 hours ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

Sure, but the as-is edit I did in that screenshot didn't remove the original bit, so that got mixed in with the insert in that version.

 

Just give me a second...

 

EDIT: Well, that fade-in back to the original cue is making the track really uncooperative, but here's my best attempt for the time being:

 

So the insert ends at roughly the 2.5ish second mark?

[oierem 152]

3 hours ago, Brando said:

So the insert ends at roughly the 2.5ish second mark?

 

Yes. The insert includes both the new music and part of the original cue in a shortened form, until it fades back into the ending of the original cue.

 

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

4 hours ago, Brando said:

So the insert ends at roughly the 2.5ish second mark?

 

Yep, on the original cue, it would be 2:15, right at the start of the buildup to the big food fight.

[Trope 527]

Here's a spectrogram view of the two versions of The Never-Feast included on this incredible set. Perhaps comparing them visually will help to clear up which parts are different and the same between them.

On 31/3/2024 at 5:48 AM, A. A. Ron said:

 Just as @Chewy was able to use reverse phasing to isolate the choral overlay from "The Capture (Alternate)" on the expanded Amistad album, I was able to isolate the 2 bars of choir that were omitted from the album version of "From Mermaids to Lost Boys." Not a substantial piece of music obviously, but still kind of fun to hear as a curiosity.

 

Could you theoretically achieve a similar thing to isolate the percussion in Pick 'Em Up if you reverse phased it with The Never-Band?

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

18 hours ago, Trope said:

Could you theoretically achieve a similar thing to isolate the percussion in Pick 'Em Up if you reverse phased it with The Never-Band?

I actually tried to do exactly that with no success. Admittedly, I’m pretty new to the reverse-phasing thing though, so it could be I just never got it lined up exactly right or something. It could also be a different take of Never Band, in which case it wouldn’t be possible.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

On 01/04/2024 at 8:57 PM, A. A. Ron said:

I actually tried to do exactly that with no success. Admittedly, I’m pretty new to the reverse-phasing thing though, so it could be I just never got it lined up exactly right or something. It could also be a different take of Never Band, in which case it wouldn’t be possible.

 

It's not an alternate take, it still phases itself out in Pick 'Em Up:

 

 

I'm fairly certain the mixing of the two tracks is slightly different, because there's a noticable ghost of the More Neverband cue left behind no matter how I adjust the gain on it.

[Jay 37,369]

There is no natural ending of the Pick Em Up song recording.  It was done as a repeat with a board fade in 1991.

 

It's definitely the exact same take of "More Never Band" (LLL title "The Never Band") in both tracks - it's not even a performance edit between multiple takes, its just one take.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

9 minutes ago, Jay said:

There is no natural ending of the Pick Em Up song recording.  It was done as a repeat with a board fade in 1991.

 

Was the Pick 'Em Up instrumental recorded as a solid three-minutes of percussion or was it only like a minute or so and looped for the film and LLL 3CD?

[Jay 37,369]

That's a good question.  I'm not sure how long the unique recording is before it repeats.  Someone clever can probably figure it out though!

[bollemanneke 3,349]

I just thought of this, Jay: How happy are you with the presentation yourself? Would you have preferred anything to be different at all?

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Obviously, he is going to say he was very happy with it lol

[Brando 1,864]

I didn't want to answer for him but I remember seeing or hearing him say that he, Mike, and John were very happy with the final presentation after everyone came together to discuss how it should be presented and they all got to share their thoughts on it.

[Jay 37,369]

We're all very pleased with the final program, keeping it mind that there were factors that lead into some decisions, such as compact disc length, composer preference, fee increases for tracks over 10 minutes long, etc

 

Programming any expansion includes deciding what to do when there are multiple versions of cues in terms of which goes in the main program and which in the bonus tracks, and by and large sticking to having all the versions used in the film in the main program, and all the versions that were not as bonus tracks, made a lot of sense and led to each program being really strong.  Additionally, the careful selection of which score alternates should go at the end of disc 2, instead of disc 3, in order to make disc 3 be the best album it can be, worked out really well.  The one change a lot of people will probably do of taking those disc 2 tracks and adding them to the disc 3 album (as John Takis laid out somewhere here earlier), to basically make a longer Songs & Alts program, which is really just as valid as the structure we ended up with.  However, when released as three physical discs, I am glad that a big bonus program didn't start on disc 2, have a disc break, and then have it continue on disc 3.  It's kind of nicer to have disc 3 be more of its own thing. 

 

Like Mike has said, everything just kind of took a life of its own and came out perfectly in that regard.  The goal was to make a program that pleased us, the composer, and the lyricist, while adhering to the stipulations we had, and of course presenting the songs in the best way possible.  Since most of the songs are piano demos, if they were just lumped together in a row, they don't speak nearly as loudly as they do in the current album 3 configuration where you hear lushly orchestrated versions of the song melodies before or after those demos in the score alternates; it just makes everything work so well that way!

 

 

Now, when it comes down to it, the die hard fans are going to change things around the way they want anyway, and it's impossible to make a program that pleases everyone.  And sure, I'm a diehard fan as much as anyone, so I don't think there's any harm in stating some of my own preferences.

 

For Hook Trailer (Prologue), as much as I like the viola version of Peter's theme, I ultimately think the final performance edit made for the released trailer in 1991 is the strongest version of this music.  I am glad that the new track is completely different takes from that version throughout (instead of sticking the different sections into an otherwise same track), but for me it plays better as a bonus track opener, and keeping the 1991 performance edit version as the main version.  Just my preference.

 

For Yuppie Sounds (Banning Back Home), I prefer Williams' original version, with the fun improv section, over the revision that was recorded at the last minute because of a picture change.  We actually discussed making the original version be main program version, but there actually wasn't space on the discs to swap them, since the original version is a minute longer than the revised one!  But since the revision is what's in the film it worked out nicely in that regard anyway.

 

For the first part of Looney Wendy (The Stories Are True), I prefer the original version with the twisted version of the "Childhood" theme, over the later revision that is just a re-done Forgotten How To Fly with the "Mothers" theme mostly removed.  This version actually was in the main program for a while, but having the "Childhood" version on disc 3 ultimately made that disc so much stronger.  And again because the revision is what's in the film it worked out nicely anyway.

 

For The Lost Boy Chase, I really like the percussion insert section.  But John Williams wanted the album version in the main program.  I don't really think it matters much either way.  If anything, having to present the first two minutes of this cue three times (because it was used in the end credits) is the biggest issue with the final product, but also an issue that just has no workaround.  At least each instance is on a different disc!

 

For the entire grand finale, I prefer to have from Tink Grows Up through The End of Hook to just be one single 24 minute track with all cues seguing directly into each other, instead of broken up into 4 tracks.  Just my preference.

 

One thing I still haven't decided on after all this time is my final thoughts on the Kensington Extension (the final part of Farewell Neverland (Short Version / Alternate)).  At first it was so jarring to hear, but I kind of love it more and more every time I hear it, and am now expecting it when I get to the end of the score.  And yet there's something about the simplicity (for lack of a better word) of the original version's ending that can't be denied.  So, I'm still undecided which I like better! 

 

I think that's about it.  I still haven't fiddled with trying to put God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen and Take Me Out To The Ballgame in the main program or anything.  And I don't think there's any merit in trying to put the other songs into the main program, not even "Low Below".  Not having Bob Hoskins performing as Smee there would be too weird I think (and you'd have to lose Show Us The Hook, which is one of my favorite parts of the score).   Moira's Lullaby seems like it would fit in well if not for the fact that the Saying Goodnight cue effectively replaces it.

[Faleel 5,355]

I think the Kensington Extension in the main program is the only change I could think of.

[Brando 1,864]

42 minutes ago, Jay said:

For The Lost Boy Chase, I really like the percussion insert section.  But John Williams wanted the album version in the main program.

I haven't had the chance to read the liner notes just yet (I will soon!), but does it explain why this was named "Alternate", why wasn't it named "Film Version"?

[Richard Penna 3,694]

The only part of Jay's thoughts above I'd disagree with is presenting the entire 24 minute battle sequence as one track. Each part of that has a unique feel and occasionally there's a part I'm drawn to listening to, and I don't like the idea of navigating within a nearly half hour track to find the bit I want. I think it works great as it is on the set and that once you're approaching anywhere near the 10 minute mark, you've got to be dealing with something like The Quidditch Match where it's obvious the cues were written to segue into each other as one piece of music. I don't get the same sense with this sequence. (and if Williams did intend these cues to form a much longer musical sequence, I don't get that sense as strongly as with HP).

 

I'd certainly disagree with Williams on his usual insistence on having album versions in the main program, no doubt due to listenability, but at least this set allows things like that to be corrected according to individual wishes. Clearly still some small hurdles to be had with him on the odd occasion, that these sets are intended to showcase the entire score and not retain edits or versions he made for the album. At least he doesn't ask for film versions like that to be omitted entirely.

[Jay 37,369]

On 05/04/2024 at 6:38 PM, Brando said:

I haven't had the chance to read the liner notes just yet (I will soon!), but does it explain why this was named "Alternate", why wasn't it named "Film Version"?

 

I don't even remember having any conversations about the name, but the film version is actually different from what's on the LLL set.

 

The LLL set debuts Williams intentions for this pick-up take, which was to start isolated but then be mixed over the original cue's pizzacato section.

 

In the final film dub, they muted the pizzacato strings, letting the pick-up take play clean during that part.

 

So I guess technically calling it an alternate makes sense.

[oierem 152]

6 hours ago, Jay said:

 

I don't even remember having any conversations about the name, but the film version is actually different from what's on the LLL set.

 

The LLL set debuts Williams intentions for this pick-up take, which was to start isolated but then be mixed over the original cue's pizzacato section.

 

In the final film dub, they muted the pizzacato strings,letting the pick-up take play clean during that part.

 

So I guess technically calling it an alternate makes sense.

 

Which means, the actual film version is missing!!!

 

Jokes aside, this is a great set, one of the best ever for sure, both for the awesome music and the presentation.

 

I do wonder, though, why do so many of you think that the original Banning Back Home is so superior? Not counting the free improv section (which is really fun) I don't really see any objective reason to call it superior to the revised version.

[bollemanneke 3,349]

There are fee increases for longer tracks? Wow.

 

I agree about the prologue. Was there ever any plan to open the album with the version we all knew? It would really, really have been better, in my view. It’s the only jarring album decision for me. Well, it’s more to do with the choice of takes. In the album opening, you clearly hear the piccolo trying to survive their parts. In the original version, you hear the piccolo having a blast.

 

About the finale, can you comment on why you chose not to replicate the film transition for Crossed Swords? (I think that’s what it’s called, the cue that kind of starts like the Chase in ET.) The film transition is much more musical than the OST/LLL one.

 

Fully agree on the Kensington paragraph. Part of me really wants the extension in the main program because I think that both that cue and the end credits don’t end on the bang I want them to.

 

[Brando 1,864]

9 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

About the finale, can you comment on why you chose not to replicate the film transition for Crossed Swords? (I think that’s what it’s called, the cue that kind of starts like the Chase in ET.) The film transition is much more musical than the OST/LLL one.

I guess because that’s how the cue was recorded and a shot or so might’ve been removed so they had to make an edit to the music there. 

16 hours ago, Jay said:

 

I don't even remember having any conversations about the name, but the film version is actually different from what's on the LLL set.

 

The LLL set debuts Williams intentions for this pick-up take, which was to start isolated but then be mixed over the original cue's pizzacato section.

 

In the final film dub, they muted the pizzacato strings,letting the pick-up take play clean during that part.

 

So I guess technically calling it an alternate makes sense.

So both versions are the same takes except for the drum insert, and the film version is different but only because an instrument was muted, kind of like the electric guitar in the Coruscant Chase in AOTC, do I have that right?

[Holko 9,529]

17 minutes ago, Brando said:

I guess because that’s how the cue was recorded and a shot or so might’ve been removed so they had to make an edit to the music there. 

No, that's the transition between two cues, we have them in the leak. The film combines them well but OST combined them kind of weirdly and that was also for some rrason replicated in the main program.

[Brando 1,864]

Ah I see

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Which track are you referring to in this set?

[Faleel 5,355]

22 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Which track are you referring to in this set?

One of the ultimate War cues.

[Chewy 2,391]

I guess we're talking about the transition at 4:48 in "The Ultimate War (Film Version)"?

[Brando 1,864]

I thought it was 2:30? I don't remember all the cue names from the War sequence, there's quite a few.

[HunterTech 994]

So you mean to tell me that this Ultimate Edition is actually missing stuff? 

[Datameister 2,044]

15 hours ago, oierem said:

I do wonder, though, why do so many of you think that the original Banning Back Home is so superior? Not counting the free improv section (which is really fun) I don't really see any objective reason to call it superior to the revised version.

 

I definitely like both. But to me, the original flows better. The redo feels a little choppy as it tries to navigate the happenings on the screen. It mostly feels like a chopped-up version of the original. (That being said, I really like the few passages that are unrelated to anything in the original version.)

 

Ultimately—pun intended—I'm just delighted to have them both complete and with pristine sound quality!

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

7 hours ago, HunterTech said:

So you mean to tell me that this Ultimate Edition is actually missing stuff? 

 

This particular discussion isn't about missing cues, it's about the way the cues are put together.

[HunterTech 994]

I kind of figured. I think I got thrown off by Holko's phrasing in his post, since such wording tends to imply unreleased material normally.

[Jay 37,369]

On 06/04/2024 at 6:37 PM, HunterTech said:

So you mean to tell me that this Ultimate Edition is actually missing stuff? 

 

No.  The Disc 3 track "The Lost Boys Chase (Alternate)" contains all the music that you hear in the film during that scene. It just ALSO contains MORE music than you can hear in the actual film, due to the film makers silencing a part of the original recording in the final dub.

[HunterTech 994]

Ah. I'd honestly written that comment as a joke, since I figured it'd be a bigger deal if something was actually missing. Guess I was right in thinking that emote didn't convey the intent well .

 

(The comment after certainly doesn't help, either .)