HOOK Ultimate Edition - MUSIC Discussion

[ThePenitentMan1 1,007]

Here's an edit I made just for fun (Or for those who like both versions of the Prologue but only want to keep one of them and can't decide which):

 

 

 

I like to imagine this as more or less the version of the Prologue that Williams might've done if he were able to edit it for the OST back in 1991.

 

This edit uses the more refined performance from the trailer version, but cuts to the alternate extended version from 0:25-0:47.  (I let the alternate go all the way to 0:47 instead of cutting it at 0:37 because I like the brass in the alternate take better.)

 

The premature percussion from the end of the alternate, I wrote off as a performance error, so it's not included here.

 

EDIT: V2 places the last edit at 0:46 instead of 0:47 to improve the woodwind performance.

[bollemanneke 3,568]

On 16/12/2023 at 5:49 PM, Jay said:

 

Well that's what Disc 3 is.  You can listen to that (specifically tracks 1-21; the last 3 tracks are bonus tracks) as your short program.

 

 

 

11 of the OST album's 17 tracks are here exactly, and the other 6 can be easily approximated, yes. 

 

(Really, if a modern rebuild of the OST album from 1st generation elements if what you're after, that was released by Mondo in 2021 on vinyl.  Hopefully Sony Music replaces the old master with this rebuild on digital platforms at some point)

 

But, to use this set to approximate the OST album, it's easy:

 

OST	LLL
1 Prologue 1:31	2-11 Hook Prologue 1:25
2 We Don't Wanna Grow Up 1:50	3-01 We Don't Wanna Grow Up 1:52
3 Banning Back Home 2:22	2-12 Banning Back Home (Extended Version) 4:24
4 Granny Wendy 2:57	1-10 Forgotten How To Fly 0:56 and 1-04 Wendy's Entrance 2:12
5 Hook-Napped 3:56	1-09 Hook Is Back 2:09 and 1-08 Hook Returns To Kensington 2:00
6 The Arrival Of Tink And The Flight To Neverland 5:56	1-12 Arrival Of Tink 3:33 and 3-08 The Flight to Neverland (Alternate) 2:33
7 Presenting The Hook 2:58	1-14 Pirate Town And Presenting The Hook 5:09
8 From Mermaids To Lost Boys 4:24	2-13 From Mermaids To Lost Boys 4:26
9 The Lost Boy Chase 3:32	1-20 The Lost Boy Chase 3:35
10 Smee's Plan 1:45	1-23 Smee's Plan 1:46
11 The Banquet 3:08	1-26 The Banquet 3:14
12 The Never-Feast 4:39	3-14 The Never-Feast 4:42
13 Remembering Childhood 11:02	3-18 Remembering Childhood 11:06
14 You Are The Pan 4:00	2-04 You Are The Pan (Film Version) 1:26 and 1-21 The Face Of Pan 2:42
15 When You Are Alone 3:14	1-28 When You're Alone 3:17
16 The Ultimate War 7:53	2-15 The Ultimate War 7:54
17 Farewell Neverland 10:17	2-09 Farewell Neverland 10:18

 

This is all mentioned in the liner notes, of course.

 

Alternatively, you can spruce things up by using alternates/film versions instead

 

OST	LLL
1 Prologue 1:31	1-01 Hook Prologue (Extended Version) 1:33
2 We Don't Wanna Grow Up 1:50	1-02 We Don’t Wanna Grow Up (Extended Version) 2:57
3 Banning Back Home 2:22	1-03 Banning Back Home (Film Version) 3:21
4 Granny Wendy 2:57	1-10 Forgotten How To Fly 0:56 and 1-04 Wendy's Entrance 2:12
5 Hook-Napped 3:56	1-09 Hook Is Back 2:09 and 1-08 Hook Returns To Kensington 2:00
6 The Arrival Of Tink And The Flight To Neverland 5:56	3-06 The Arrival Of Tink (Alternate) 3:35 and 1-13 The Flight To Neverland 2:40
7 Presenting The Hook 2:58	3-24 Presenting The Hook (Vocal Version Segment) 1:38
8 From Mermaids To Lost Boys 4:24	1-18 From Mermaids To Lost Boys (Film Version) 4:26
9 The Lost Boy Chase 3:32	3-10 The Lost Boy Chase (Alternate) 3:34
10 Smee's Plan 1:45	1-23 Smee's Plan 1:46
11 The Banquet 3:08	1-26 The Banquet 3:14
12 The Never-Feast 4:39	1-27 The Never-Feast (Film Version) 4:41
13 Remembering Childhood 11:02	2-02 Home Run And Follow That Shadow 5:24 and 2-03 Peter Remembers (The Flying Sequence) 8:23
14 You Are The Pan 4:00	2-04 You Are The Pan (Film Version) 1:26 and 2-14 The Face Of Pan (Choral Version) 2:43
15 When You Are Alone 3:14	3-14 When You’re Alone (Instrumental) 3:19
16 The Ultimate War 7:53	2-06 The Ultimate War (Film Version) 8:02
17 Farewell Neverland 10:17	3-20 Farewell Neverland (Short Version / Alternate) 6:54

 

Or mix and match between the two

I'm really excited to try your alternate OST program suggestion. But I want to take things further still: I'm going to insert the Boston Pops concert arrangements in it.

[bollemanneke 3,568]

Well that didn't work, 2 minutes too long.

[QuartalHarmony 645]

It’s just the tiniest of moments, but on D1 T2 at 0:42, I still think I’m about to hear the Rebel Fanfare.

 

Am I the only one?

[Brando 2,077]

3 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

It’s just the tiniest of moments, but on D1 T2 at 0:42, I still think I’m about to hear the Rebel Fanfare.

 

Am I the only one?

I can kinda hear it, yeah

[bollemanneke 3,568]

Potential hot take. I'm listening to Disc 3 again and the songs are really growing on me. So much so that I'm convinced it was a mad idea to scrap most of them. Believe HAD to be in there, Mothers as well. But no, we needed Pick' em Up and We Don't Wanna Grow Up.

 

Something else I've noticed: the piano accompaniments in Childhood and Believe seem to shun JW's more complex harmonies, you wonder why. God, I would have liked to hear Julia Roberts sing Believe accompanied by Exit Music.

 

Also, anyone else listening to the underscore and singing along? I can't not do it anymore.

[Taikomochi 1,201]

When You’re Alone is pretty bad too lol. I mean I love the melody, but the song itself I find pretty cringe. Believe is the best of any of the songs, and it’s tragic it was cut.

[bollemanneke 3,568]

It works better as a theme than Mothers, though.

[Jay 39,156]

3 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Something else I've noticed: the piano accompaniments in Childhood and Believe seem to shun JW's more complex harmonies, you wonder why.

 

They are just demos laid down to get the basic idea across.

 

3 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Also, anyone else listening to the underscore and singing along? I can't not do it anymore.

 

Hehehhe, yes, absolutely!

[Luke Skywalker 1,932]

Childhood. Childhood is the song which should have never been cut. And should have been performed in the end credits

And won an oscar BTW

[ThePenitentMan1 1,007]

  

35 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Childhood. Childhood is the song which should have never been cut. And should have been performed in the end credits

 

Childhood and the When You're Alone Lullaby.

[Goldfingers 132]

This does not concern the La-La Land Records edition, but it is one of the latest active topics about Hook. If it needs to be moved, let me know.
I just came across something I didn't know. It seems that the original 1991 soundtrack was officially reissued on CD by Sony in 2019/2020, before the Mondo Records vinyl. Curiously, John Williams is not listed as the artist of the album, but "Various" is. How is that possible?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,882]

Remember, these are the same people who think John Williams the composer and John Williams the guitarist are the same guy.

[QuartalHarmony 645]

Looks cheap and nasty enough to be a bootleg!

[Jurassic Shark 12,882]

John "Various" Williams. Are they referring to Bill Ross?

[ThePenitentMan1 1,007]

"Various" is probably referring to the singers on We Don't Wanna Grow Up and When You're Alone.

[Brando 2,077]

Leslie Bricusse wrote “We Don’t Wanna Grow Up” and “When You’re Alone”

[Manakin Skywalker 5,221]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

John "Various" Williams. Are they referring to Bill Ross?

 

[Tom 5,025]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Remember, these are the same people who think John Williams the composer and John Williams the guitarist are the same guy.

Are they not?  

[Jay 39,156]

I did not know about this edition. Too bad it's not Matessino's rebuild of the OST album (from the same element used to make the Ultimate Edition) that he made for Mondo. That'd be cool to have on disc (and streaming)

[Goldfingers 132]

Of course, Leslie Bricusse wrote the songs, but it's the only time I see the Hook soundtrack identified as 'Various' artists. This term is often used for soundtracks that compile different songs from multiples bands, never for scores from one composer.

 

28 minutes ago, Jay said:

I did not know about this edition. Too bad it's not Matessino's rebuild of the OST album (from the same element used to make the Ultimate Edition) that he made for Mondo. That'd be cool to have on disc (and streaming)

 

That's exactly what I thought. It would have been a good opportunity to correct the "Prologue" in a properly remastered CD edition of the original soundtrack, which would have been followed by the Mondo vinyl. After digging a bit, it is definitely an official release, released in March 2020. Not a bootleg.
This edition is available online on the Barnes and Noble website, and I found a shop on eBay that sells it (in quantity). I'm surprised it flew under my radar at the time. I'm usually on the lookout for this kind of thing.
 

[John Dutton 7,251]

It looks so bootleg

[A. A. Ron 1,892]

3 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Remember, these are the same people who think John Williams the composer and John Williams the guitarist are the same guy.

Wait, which one wrote Hook?

[The Great Gonzales 6,201]

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

Wait, which one wrote Hook?

The guitarist obviously, you can tell by the guitar being in The Face of Pan

[John Dutton 7,251]

What? Which one?

[The Train Station 8,558]

I hate how this new release opens with an alternate of the Prologue, and banishes the real one to the bonus cues on Disc 2.

[ThePenitentMan1 1,007]

2 hours ago, Unlucky Bastard said:

I hate how this new release opens with an alternate of the Prologue, and banishes the real one to the bonus cues on Disc 2.

 

I'm wondering if that was JW's idea, him preferring to use the version with the extra viola passage as originally written over the compromised Trailer version.

[The Train Station 8,558]

7 minutes ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

I'm wondering if that was JW's idea, him preferring to use the version with the extra viola passage as originally written over the compromised Trailer version.

 

The "compromised" version is better.

[ThePenitentMan1 1,007]

1 hour ago, Unlucky Bastard said:

The "compromised" version is better.

 

The performance is better for sure, 100% agreement there.  That said...

 

 

[The Train Station 8,558]

I mean if Williams preferred that longer version opening the new LLL set, then wouldn't he have opened the OST with it instead?

[Jurassic Shark 12,882]

Expanded soundtrack -> longer prologue.

[The Train Station 8,558]

8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Expanded soundtrack -> longer prologue.

 

Longer, inferior prologue.

[ThePenitentMan1 1,007]

32 minutes ago, Unlucky Bastard said:

I mean if Williams preferred that longer version opening the new LLL set, then wouldn't he have opened the OST with it instead?

 

My understanding (and Jay can add more insight if I'm wrong on any of this!) is that the decision to add the trailer music as a prologue was enough of a last-minute decision that Williams couldn't create a new edit for it in time for the OST's release.  They just took the final digital edit of the cue as used in the trailer, converted it incorrectly to 16/44.1 (which is why it was slowed down on the OST), and left it like that on the final OST master.

[The Train Station 8,558]

1 minute ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

 

My understanding (and Jay can add more insight if I'm wrong on any of this!) is that the decision to add the trailer music as a prologue was enough of a last-minute decision that Williams couldn't create a new edit for it in time for the OST's release.  They just took the final digital edit of the cue as used in the trailer, converted it incorrectly to 16/44.1 (which is why it was slowed down on the OST), and left it like that on the final OST master.

 

Which turned out great!

[Trope 731]

21 minutes ago, Unlucky Bastard said:

 

Which turned out great!

*except for the incorrect sample rate

[Jurassic Shark 12,882]

But that's what gave it the awesome slowness!

[The Train Station 8,558]

30 minutes ago, Trope said:

*except for the incorrect sample rate

 

Only nerds care about that shit

[Davis 2,768]

The Hook score is so great, it doesn’t matter at what rate you listen to it. 

[Trope 731]

16 minutes ago, Unlucky Bastard said:

 

Only nerd care about that shit

And you've been a member on JWFan since 2002...

[The Train Station 8,558]

2 minutes ago, Trope said:

And you've been a member on JWFan since 2002...

 

Which was only last year.

[Jay 39,156]

4 hours ago, ThePenitentMan1 said:

My understanding (and Jay can add more insight if I'm wrong on any of this!) is that the decision to add the trailer music as a prologue was enough of a last-minute decision that Williams couldn't create a new edit for it in time for the OST's release.  They just took the final digital edit of the cue as used in the trailer, converted it incorrectly to 16/44.1 (which is why it was slowed down on the OST), and left it like that on the final OST master.

 

 

Nope, it's the other way around; It was prepared for the OST album super early (and that early prep probably caused it to be at the wrong speed on the master).

 

In 1991 we were still in a mostly analogue world. The entire score was recorded onto analog tape, and performance edits were made by cutting analog tape, and those analog-edited versions of hte cues are what went to the dubbing of the sound mix of the film.   (Spielberg's first film to have a digital audio track would be his next film, Jurassic Park, in 1993).  So for Hook, the *only* cues that were edited digitally in 1991 were the ones that were going on the OST album.  And those digital edits were made as a separate event after the were cut the first time for the film itself, with the intent to re-create the same edits in a digital realm (though in a few cases they messed up and didn't re-create them exactly).

 

The trailer music was recorded in June 1991, and Williams, Wannberg, and Murphy chose the performance edit they wanted for he trailer out of all the takes recorded, and cut that on analog to go into the analog sound mix of the trailer.  Shortly after this, that chosen performance edit was re-created digitally in 48khz resolution for it to be ready for the upcoming OST album's master when that was going to be put together months later.  I do believe that Williams always intended to open his OST album with this track.

 

So now jump to October and the score is being recorded, but the film isn't finished yet.  At some point the OST album has to be locked before all the cues are recorded, and the film is still being edited, so it is decided to come back in November to finish up the remaining score.  At this point any cue that WIlliams has chosen to be included on the OST is brought into the digital world and the performance edits that had been chosen are redone digitally, and this is where at least one other mistake happened (the wrong take of part of Remembering Childhood used).  So I guess at some point in the rush to program the OST album and recreate all the performance edits in digital, the 48khz digitally edited trailer cue got incorrectly changed to 44.1khz and as a result ended up playing at 91.875% of the speed it was recorded at (the exact different between 44,100hz and 48,000 hz) on all the albums that were in stores on the release date.  And this technical mistake was never fixed for any future pressings, either on CD or on vinyl in various countries.  The master never changed.  And clearly Sony Music used the same master again for this 2020 CD release, which was only 1 year before Mike recreated all the OST's performance edits anew in high resolution for the Mondo vinyl.

[ThePenitentMan1 1,007]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

 

 

Nope, it's the other way around; It was prepared for the OST album super early (and that early prep probably caused it to be at the wrong speed on the master).

 

In 1991 we were still in a mostly analogue world. The entire score was recorded onto analog tape, and performance edits were made by cutting analog tape, and those analog-edited versions of hte cues are what went to the dubbing of the sound mix of the film.   (Spielberg's first film to have a digital audio track would be his next film, Jurassic Park, in 1993).  So for Hook, the *only* cues that were edited digitally in 1991 were the ones that were going on the OST album.  And those digital edits were made as a separate event after the were cut the first time for the film itself, with the intent to re-create the same edits in a digital realm (though in a few cases they messed up and didn't re-create them exactly).

 

The trailer music was recorded in June 1991, and Williams, Wannberg, and Murphy chose the performance edit they wanted for he trailer out of all the takes recorded, and cut that on analog to go into the analog sound mix of the trailer.  Shortly after this, that chosen performance edit was re-created digitally in 48khz resolution for it to be ready for the upcoming OST album's master when that was going to be put together months later.  I do believe that Williams always intended to open his OST album with this track.

 

So now jump to October and the score is being recorded, but the film isn't finished yet.  At some point the OST album has to be locked before all the cues are recorded, and the film is still being edited, so it is decided to come back in November to finish up the remaining score.  At this point any cue that WIlliams has chosen to be included on the OST is brought into the digital world and the performance edits that had been chosen are redone digitally, and this is where at least one other mistake happened (the wrong take of part of Remembering Childhood used).  So I guess at some point in the rush to program the OST album and recreate all the performance edits in digital, the 48khz digitally edited trailer cue got incorrectly changed to 44.1khz and as a result ended up playing at 91.875% of the speed it was recorded at (the exact different between 44,100hz and 48,000 hz) on all the albums that were in stores on the release date.  And this technical mistake was never fixed for any future pressings, either on CD or on vinyl in various countries.  The master never changed.  And clearly Sony Music used the same master again for this 2020 CD release, which was only 1 year before Mike recreated all the OST's performance edits anew in high resolution for the Mondo vinyl.

 

I see.  So, any idea on why the LLL 3-CD opens with the Alternate instead of the Trailer/Album Version?

 

Is the incorrect take portion of Remembering Childhood recreated on Disc 3, with the correct take portion used on Disc 2?  Or is it the correct take on both?

[Datameister 2,241]

Short version with correct speed > short version with incorrect speed > long version. 

 

And boy, is it great to have all three! 😁

[The Train Station 8,558]

36 minutes ago, Datameister said:

Short version with correct speed > short version with incorrect speed > long version. 

 

And boy, is it great to have all three! 😁

 

Sure, but I get sick of having to insert Disc 2 just to play one track, take it out, then insert Disc 1, skip Track 1, play the disc, then switch back to Disc 2 to play the rest of the score.

[Datameister 2,241]

24 minutes ago, Unlucky Bastard said:

 

Sure, but I get sick of having to insert Disc 2 just to play one track, take it out, then insert Disc 1, skip Track 1, play the disc, then switch back to Disc 2 to play the rest of the score.

 

Someday technology will save us from all that rigamarole. It'll be nice.

[The Train Station 8,558]

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

 

Someday technology will save us from all that rigamarole. It'll be nice.

 

Well I don't have an automatic disc switcher. My player only takes one at a time.

[scoreman36 85]

You need one of these bad boys. 

[QuartalHarmony 645]

I'm not the best at reading between the lines of forum humour, but I think @Datameister might have been referring to the possibility of ripping the tracks from the CDs and making your own playlist with the ripped files. I believe this started to become popular about 20 years ago.

 

 

[The Train Station 8,558]

3 minutes ago, QuartalHarmony said:

I'm not the best at reading between the lines of forum humour, but I think @Datameister might have been referring to the possibility of ripping the tracks from the CDs and making your own playlist with the ripped files. I believe this started to become popular about 20 years ago.

 

 

 

Yeah but the I can only listen to it at the computer? Screw that

[QuartalHarmony 645]

There are other options. Do you remember seeing people with these a few years ago?

 

 

I believe some young people even listen to music on their portable telephones nowadays.