Jon Burlingame Article on "Wearing Somebody Else's Underwear"

[Faleel 5,359]

https://variety.com/2024/awards/opinion/why-music-for-may-december-viral-hot-dog-scene-is-problematic-1235866494/

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

I'm not a fan of repurposing film music, and found the use of Herrmann's music in 'The Artist' distracting, wholly unnecessary, and self-indulgent on the part of the director.

 

Even if the idea is to pay homage and draw a parallel, as in Scorsese's use in 'Casino' of Delerue's 'Thème de Camille' from Godard's 'Le Mépris', it just seems disrespectful to the composer to cut and paste his work.

[Not Mr. Big 4,640]

21 minutes ago, Presto said:

https://variety.com/2024/awards/opinion/why-music-for-may-december-viral-hot-dog-scene-is-problematic-1235866494/

Naaaaahhhh

[mrbellamy 6,293]

I like Burlingame but this is a lame take 

[GerateWohl 4,373]

Burlingame should never watch a Tarantino movie. He would be totally confused and put into old spagetti westerns and kung-fu movies. Tarantino repurposed a lot of Morricone film music and other stuff.

[Thor 7,521]

What a bizarre, oldfashioned sentiment from Burlingame. I love the variations of Legrand's THE GO-BETWEEN in MAY DECEMBER (although I had to disqualify it for my own best of list as there's not enough original Zavros material), and see no reason for why existing film music pieces shouldn't and couldn't be used in new films, for new effects - just as you can pop music and classical music. They can often be used for humourous effect (like the use of the JURASSIC PARK theme when they see the marihuana field in TED), or for mood (like the many instances in Sam Esmail productions) or for creating unique audiovisual tableaux (like any given Tarantino movie, as Geratewohl says). Etc. etc.

[JTN 2,047]

I guess Jon hasn’t seen NAPOLEON. I wonder if he would find Marianelli’s PRIDE & PREJUDICE score used in it problematic as well. 

[GerateWohl 4,373]

Instead of being happy as a movie music fan, that film music has in the meantime reached the same status as pop and classical music in public conciousness and therefore is used in a postmodern way as stylistic device in movies, complaining about it, I don't understand.

 

I would understand, if it was about a particulare missuse in one case.  Of course this can be done well and badly.

But Burlingame here says, that it is problematic in general.

[JTN 2,047]

I agree with Jon in that regard that if you have hired a film composer to write an original score to your film, and it’s not specifically source music that you want to use in a scene, why would you use a cue from another film written by another film composer? It’s nonsensical and wrong. 
Again, I’m talking about Napoleon.

[Jurassic Shark 12,091]

Well, it depends if the hired composer is able to deliver what the director wants.

[JTN 2,047]

Well a famous director like Ridley Scott can hire anyone he wants, so he’ll hire a major film composer who is capable of writing a 2-minute lyrical piano piece. 

[GerateWohl 4,373]

39 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Well, it depends if the hired composer is able to deliver what the director wants.

Ok. That would be really head scratching if a director uses existing music because the hired composer is not capable of delivering the expected quality. That would really be a "wearing somebody else's underwear" scenario.

 

 

[Thor 7,521]

I think it's perfectly fine for a director to fall in love with an existing piece (perhaps if it's used as a temp track) and then decide to use it as-is in the film, if they have the money to licence it. The important thing is that there is some thought process behind the use.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

I'm very much on the other side of the road from Burlingame. I've heard so many instances of needledrop or temp track love, and while it's not ideal for the composer, sometimes it's the most effective route for the film.

 

I watched the third Conjuring film and noticed 3 or 4 times that the music wasn't on the album and also didn't sound very much like Bishara. Turns out the film credits list about a dozen pre-existing tracks so I think it's a case of temp track attachment. Notice that I didn't negatively remark on the effectiveness of the music, merely that with an ear tuned relatively well to Bishara's style, I had doubts that it was him. 99.99999999% of viewers won't notice or care.

 

It may not be a question of quality on the part of the hired composer, but whether they're coming up with something that is narratively/emotionally working. Sometimes a composer's ideas aren't working for some intangible reason, and the director comes across a pre-existing piece that just hits the buttons. I think it's more important to maintain the musical logic behind it than stick rigidly to the idea that they have a composer and must use their services.

 

[Bespin 8,484]

I'm disappointed by this thread; I really thought it would be about underwear.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

2 hours ago, JTW said:

I guess Jon hasn’t seen NAPOLEON. I wonder if he would find Marianelli’s PRIDE & PREJUDICE score used in it problematic as well. 

 

Or Kingdom of Heaven where Goldsmith and Beltrami (and possibly others, they're just the two I know about) feature near the end.

[JTN 2,047]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

I think it's perfectly fine for a director to fall in love with an existing piece (perhaps if it's used as a temp track) and then decide to use it as-is in the film, if they have the money to licence it. The important thing is that there is some thought process behind the use.

I couldn’t

disagree more. If a high profile director such as Ridley Scott makes a film about Napoleon and hires a film composer to write original music to his film, why would he want to use the score of a Jane Austen-film composed by Dario Marianelli? He could either hire Marianelli in the first place or ask his composer to write a similar piece for that scene. Like George Lucas asked John Williams to write something similar to Holst’s The Planets for the rebel blockade runner sequence, and JW was perfectly capable of emulating Holst without having to license the original music. 

 

This case is even worse, because Scott used the score of another film that many people, including its cast and crew, its director and composer would recognize, not to mention some of the viewers. And this is also a kind of an insult to the film composer he hired, because it shows that Scott didn’t have faith in him enough to believe that he was capable of composing a piece of music like that. Then the initial question remains: Why did he hire him in the first place, and not someone who could compose a score he wanted and liked? 
 

4 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Or Kingdom of Heaven where Goldsmith and Beltrami (and possibly others, they're just the two I know about) feature near the end.

I didn’t know about that. Wow. Thanks for pointing it out!

 

32 minutes ago, Bespin said:

I'm disappointed by this thread; I really thought it would be about underwear.

You little pervert.

[Mr. Who 919]

The use of the Murphy Adagio cue in WW84 really annoyed me as it robbed us of an original cue for that scene featuring the WW theme but I think Tarantino uses music very effectively in his films.

[Edmilson 7,473]

Every time an article uses the word "problematic" in its title you know it'll be mostly rubbish. It's silly to see a veteran jornalist like Burlingame resorting to that kind of article who uses that word, usually you see it in articles written by Millenials or Gen Z in order to find reasons to attack older movies and shows (from the 2012 Avengers movie to Friends), or to attack just about anything that don't conform to their preferences.

 

I honestly think it's hard to take seriously any article in the "journalism" (and that in the loosest sense of the word) entertainment that uses that word in its title.

 

As for JB, wow, this might be one of the worst things he has ever written. How come such a veteran film music journalist like him writes a story about the use of pre-existing scores in movies and doesn't even mention Tarantino? Has he never seen Kill Bill or Inglorious Basterds or Django? Why is he acting like May December didn't do something that a lot of renowed filmmakers, beloved by movie critics, did before in a lot of classics, from Tarantino to Alien?

 

I'm not even debating the merit of his point. What I find odd is that this is a really weird article that doesn't seem like it was written by a veteran of the industry but rather by a 23-year-old social media addict who just now left college and is beginning his career.

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

The use of the Murphy Adagio cue in WW84 really annoyed me as it robbed us of an original cue for that scene featuring the WW theme but I think Tarantino uses music very effectively in his films.

Yeah, no one can deny that Tarantino uses it effectively. I guess that's the only way I'd forgive it. And he's a big movie buff that likes to wink at film history, so it works for him and fits his aesthetic. But in other cases I'd agree with your WW84 example and say just compose some new music.

[Thor 7,521]

I see no difference between using a pop song, a classical piece or a film music track in a film, as long as it serves some purpose and there is a thought process behind its dramatic application.

 

It isn't necessarily a downplaying of the composer's abilities, it isn't a question of the composer not being able to compose a piece in a similar style, but more because the director feels that particular track does exactly what he or she wants, in that particular scene. So if they have the money to licence it, I see no problem in doing so.

[JTN 2,047]

And thus in a film about Napoleon we’re hearing a film score cue composed for a Jane Austen-film. How original.
 

It’s not a matter of having the money to licence it, it’s a matter of not doing it because it’s completely unnecessary and distracting. If I hire a great film composer whose abilites I know and trust, I’m not using music by another film composer written for another film. 
 

If I’ve hired John Williams to write the score to my film, I’m not using Jerry Goldsmith‘s score written to another movie, for certain scenes, when I could just ask John Williams to emulate the style of that particular cue or even write a better one, hence I’m working with JW, the best film composer. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

21 minutes ago, Thor said:

I see no difference between using a pop song, a classical piece or a film music track in a film

If I was blissfully ignorant to the fact that it was from another movie, then I could simply say, "It fits the scene. Well done." But if I know where it's from, and especially if it's a cue that I strongly associate with the movie (e.g., 'Scene d'Amour' from 'Vertigo'), it's going to be more of a distraction than anything else. But as I said, if it's used in a wink-nudge Tarantino way, I can live with it.

[Thor 7,521]

29 minutes ago, JTW said:

And thus in a film about Napoleon we’re hearing a film score cue composed for a Jane Austen-film. How original.

 

To be honest, I couldn't hear any PRIDE in NAPOLEON. You're probably right that it's there, but it was so organically intervowen that I didn't even notice it. If that cue was what Scott & co. felt captured the scene in question perfectly, and thus no original score needed, I see no problem with that whatsoever.

 

12 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

If I was blissfully ignorant to the fact that it was from another movie, then I could simply say, "It fits the scene. Well done." But if I know where it's from, and especially if it's a cue that I strongly associate with the movie (e.g., 'Scene d'Amour' from 'Vertigo'), it's going to be more of a distraction than anything else. But as I said, if it's used in a wink-nudge Tarantino way, I can live with it.

 

Well, that is your - and ours - "burden to bear" as hardcore film music buffs. Most people don't notice or care. And sometimes, they're SUPPOSED to notice, i.e. using a famous existing piece in a new setting for new associations. Like "Also Sprach Zarathustra" in 2001, applying our previous associations of the piece in a new sci fi setting, although still commenting on human evolution. Tarantino does the same, although sometimes more for mood and ambiance than any particular pre-existing connotations. Again, all of this is perfectly valid.

 

When Sam Ismail uses Kilar's DRACULA in MR. ROBOT (or whatever the show was), few others than us will notice that it's from that score, but it sets the tone perfectly.

 

In the case of MAY DECEMBER, it's a different story yet again. It's not a matter of needle-dropping, but of infusing the whole score in Legrand's sonic universe, just as Noah Baumbach did with Delerue in FRANCES HA. Also a perfectly legitimate way of using existing film music.

 

In short, I see no problem with this whatsoever, as long as there is a conscious strategy or meaning behind it.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

27 minutes ago, JTW said:

And thus in a film about Napoleon we’re hearing a film score cue composed for a Jane Austen-film. How original.
 

It’s not a matter of having the money to licence it, it’s a matter of not doing it because it’s completely unnecessary and distracting. If I hire a great film composer whose abilites I know and trust, I’m not using music by another film composer written for another film. 
 

If I’ve hired John Williams to write the score to my film, I’m not using Jerry Goldsmith‘s score written to another movie, for certain scenes, when I could just ask John Williams to emulate the style of that particular cue or even write a better one, hence I’m working with JW, the best film composer. 

 

But this raises two issues - how do you know the composer you've hired is going to provide exactly what you need? There's a book on rejected scores for a reason - directors get things wrong, composers get things wrong, and just occasionally the easiest option is to license a pre-existing piece if you're not getting what you want.

 

And secondly, if a director really likes the temp, is a major composer going to be happy if you gave them a Goldsmith cue and told them to write a soundalike? In some cases I think it's easier for everyone to use the Goldsmith and allow the composer to focus on other bits.

 

Hence I'd argue that you can confidently state you would hire Williams and never use music from another composer, but picture yourself in the editing room with time and studio pressures, and something's not working. You may be able to argue for another few days for Williams to rewrite a cue, but what if you can't? or what if Williams and yourself don't agree on what the music shuld be doing? Zimmer said in an interview once that he disagreed with a director in a big way on a scene and just refused to write anything at all until they'd sorted it out.

[Stark 316]

From a musical standpoint, needledropping older scores into a new film doesn’t seem like it properly tells a “musical story” - but there are plenty of films that have nevertheless done so effectively (another one that hasn’t been mentioned here yet is Zimmer’s Rango, which uses one track from Elfman’s The Kingdom to great effect), so this article seems a bit harsh.

[mstrox 6,651]

53 minutes ago, Thor said:

I see no difference between using a pop song, a classical piece or a film music track in a film, as long as it serves some purpose and there is a thought process behind its dramatic application.

Yes

[Erik Woods 555]

I wrote this in another thread on Facebook, so I'll just copy and paste it here.

-----

As another film music journalist pointed out in another film music group, the focus of the article should have been on “why it didn’t work” and not “this is wrong.”

Also, as long as you pay for the piece of music, you can do whatever you want with it. I mean, Tarantino, as an example, has perfectly demonstrated how to do it right, do it respectfully, and make sure his needle-drops support the narrative of his film(s).
-----

I also added later...

-----

I didn’t see any examples in the article as to why it (the cue in question) didn’t work. No specific scenes were talked about and there wasn’t an analysis as to why the piece didn’t work dramatically. All I got from the piece was “using pre-existing music is bad” Ok, it’s an opinion piece but shouldn’t it dig a little bit deeper into why it is bad to use pre-existing music? If you’re not a film or film music connoisseur and don’t recognize the piece being used, does it matter? All that matters is what’s good for the film. I mean, how many people can truly recognize the needle drops of Aliens and Man on Fire in Die Hard?

 

-----

 

For an opinion piece, Jon's article just barely scratches the surface of the issue (if there really is one). I think this could have been better handled as a longer piece with opinions from composers, music supervisors, directors, producers, film music fans, film music critics and general moviegoers about the pros and cons of music needle-drops in films, why it is done, when is the right or wrong time to add in pre-existing music and does the general movie-going public even care? Now, THAT's something I would read and find extremely interesting.

 

-Erik-

[Edmilson 7,473]

34 minutes ago, Erik Woods said:

I think this could have been better handled as a longer piece with opinions from composers, music supervisors, directors, producers, film music fans, film music critics and general moviegoers about the pros and cons of music needle-drops in films, why it is done, when is the right or wrong time to add in pre-existing music and does the general movie-going public even care? Now, THAT's something I would read and find extremely interesting.

Indeed. That would've been a really great and in-depth article, worthy of Burlingame's name and career as one of the most respected film music especialists in the world.

 

What we got was something that seemed like something a newcomer would write for shit clickbait-y sites like ScreenRant or whatever.

[Erik Woods 555]

2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

What we got was something that seemed like something a newcomer would write for shit clickbait-y sites like ScreenRant or whatever.

Agreed. It felt like something I would have written back in the 90's on rec.music.movies. Actually, I think I did write some (a lot) of cringe-worthy stuff like that back then.

 

-Erik-

[JTN 2,047]

Maybe he's busy writing his new book and took some time out to write this piece. (sarcasm)

 

But he does have a point, though. It's not black and white, but I think in the specific case of Napoleon - other examples may be different - Scott could and should've asked Martin Phipps to compose a piece of music for that scene and I firmly believe that such a talented composer as Phipps was and is perfectly capable of writing such music. Anyone who has made it in Hollywood should be able to compose any kind of music. There have been many examples of rejected scores, but then the entire score was not used and another composer was hired to write a new score. In Napoleon's case Dario Marianelli's theme was used in just two scenes (that I counted). It's a relatively simple piano theme, but it's so obvious, so distinguishable from the rest of the score, that one can't help but wonder why Scott did that. 

 

I'm not particularly fond of Tarantino's using other films' scores, either, but his style is about copying and "paying tribute" to other directors' work anyway, so it's acceptable in his case, I guess. 

But Ridley Scott has worked with the best film composers during his career from Jerry Goldsmith to Vangelis to Hans Zimmer and Harry-Gregson Williams. All of these composers wrote some of the best original scores ever created, to his films. Then he does this. Why? It's baffling.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

Scott also got HGW to compose a main theme (and the one or two cues in which it appears) for Prometheus, which was otherwise composed by Streitenfeld.

 

And I don't think the issue is so much a Hollywood composer being capable of writing the music, but whether the director found something pre-existing that they thought worked so well in the film that they didn't think it was necessary for their composer to write something.

 

6 minutes ago, JTW said:

it's so obvious, so distinguishable from the rest of the score, that one can't help but wonder why did Scott do that. 

 

It's only obvious to our community. No regular filmgoer will care or notice, and it's them for whom the director is making the film. Scott will put the music in that he thinks improves the scene. I think you just find this vastly more troubling than some of us others.

[Edmilson 7,473]

8 minutes ago, JTW said:

But he does have a point, though. It's not black and white, but I think in the specific case of Napoleon - other examples may be different - Scott could and should've asked Martin Phipps to compose a piece of music for that scene and I firmly believe that such a talented composer as Phipps was and is perfectly capable of writing such music. Anyone who has made it in Hollywood should be able to compose any kind of music. There have been many examples of rejected scores, but then the entire score was not used and another composer was hired to write a new score. In Napoleon's case Dario Marianelli's theme was used in just two scenes (that I counted). It's a relatively simple piano theme, but it's so obvious, so distinguishable from the rest of the score, that one can't help but wonder why Scott did that. 

 

Due to Scott's passion for his temp tracks, I'm pretty sure that had Phipps write anything for the scene that was scored with Marianelli's music, his cue probably would've ended up here 

 

3 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Scott also got HGW to compose a main theme (and the one or two cues in which it appears) for Prometheus, which was otherwise composed by Streitenfeld.

 

Yeah, and HGW's theme for Prometheus is the best thing about that score. It reminds me sci-fi scores of the 90s, like something that David Arnold or Alan Silvestri could've written back then.

[JTN 2,047]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

To be honest, I couldn't hear any PRIDE in NAPOLEON. You're probably right that it's there, but it was so organically intervowen that I didn't even notice it.

Oh it's there, trust me. And it's VERY distracting, to me at least, who has listened to and enjoyed Marianelli's score many times. It sticks out like a sore thumb. 

2 hours ago, Thor said:

If that cue was what Scott & co. felt captured the scene in question perfectly, and thus no original score needed

If it were a piece of classical music of that era, I would agree. But for heaven's sake it's from another film, that was made in 2005. It's like they used a theme from Harry Potter saying no one's going to notice, who cares. 

 

And don't tell me that Martin Phipps can't compose a piano theme similar to that, because if he can't (which I don't believe), he has no place composing film music for major motion pictures and television series. 

[Richard Penna 3,695]

  

2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Yeah, and HGW's theme for Prometheus is the best thing about that score. It reminds me sci-fi scores of the 90s, like something that David Arnold or Alan Silvestri could've written back then.

 

I agree that HGW's theme is really good, but I feel I have to defend Streitenfeld's score - I love it.

[JTN 2,047]

6 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Scott also got HGW to compose a main theme (and the one or two cues in which it appears) for Prometheus, which was otherwise composed by Streitenfeld.

Totally different. The theme by HGW was composed for Prometheus, not another film. There are many instances when multiple composers work on a film. 

 

7 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

It's only obvious to our community. No regular filmgoer will care or notice, and it's them for whom the director is making the film. Scott will put the music in that he thinks improves the scene. I think you just find this vastly more troubling than some of us others.

I have already talked about this, that in a way it makes it all the more wrong, because the filmmakers simply wanted to get away with it thinking that nobody was going to notice it. But many people do notice it, including the cast and crew of Pride and Prejudice, the fans of that film and the score, etc. 

 

[Richard Penna 3,695]

It may be as simple as Scott got Phipps to write a piano cue, and despite it being a fine cue, was a bit iffy over whether it worked cinematically. Then he goes back to his temp track and for whatever reason it works better for him than Phipp's cue, and it's just easier to licence that cue than get Phipps to keep revising his music.

 

I really think that viewing it as some sort of insult to the composer, and insinuating that basically any Hollywood composer should be able to write music that satisfies the exact wishes of that particular director and film, is a little rosy tinted.

[JTN 2,047]

It may be that simple, yes, but that doesn't make it any more elegant.

 

15 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I really think that viewing it as some sort of insult to the composer

I'm not viewing it as that, only if that's what happened, which we don't know. If Scott threw out Phipps' composition and put Marianelli's piece in, it's his right to do, but it's wrong imho and it's kind of an insult to Phipps. Imagine being hired by a director based on your merit, and then your music isn't used and instead another film composer's work done for a completely different film is put in its place. It must be very frustrating. 

 

And it's happened before with Scott, when he used Goldsmith's score to Freud in Alien. Jerry wasn't delighted about it, and that's putting it mildly. And you can't blame him (JG that is).

 

15 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

insinuating that basically any Hollywood composer should be able to write music that satisfies the exact wishes of that particular director and film, is a little rosy tinted.

Not any Hollywood composer, but all the major successful film composers who're working in Hollywood, should. Like Martin Phipps, who also should and can, otherwise he hadn't been hired by Ridley Scott, one of the biggest directors.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,553]

5 hours ago, Bespin said:

I'm disappointed by this thread; I really thought it would be about underwear.

 

Well, me, too, Bes. Me, too.

 

What about rewearing your own underwear, time after time, after time?

[Mr. Hooper 1,804]

5 hours ago, Bespin said:

I'm disappointed by this thread; I really thought it would be about underwear.

You could create a thread about it. It would pair well with the pubic hair one. (No, I will not tire of talking about it.)

[Thor 7,521]

As I said earlier, there's no need to create any kind of "behind the scenes drama" around this (that they didn't ask the composer to do a piece because they didn't think he or she had the chops, that they were not satisfied with the composer's work etc.). It's just the nature of how films are being made. Soundtracks in most films are really a tapestry of all kinds of music -- source music, non-diegetic music, licenced music (classical, pop, film music), original music. Some composed by the film's composer, some not. You'll be hardpressed to find a soundtrack that isn't a tapestry of some kind.

 

Since NAPOLEON was brought up, you can find the full list of existing cues here. What matters is how it all comes together, and in this case I felt the whole thing came together beautifully as one piece - the original Phipps music as well as all the other things.

[GerateWohl 4,373]

5 hours ago, Thor said:

I see no difference between using a pop song, a classical piece or a film music track in a film, as long as it serves some purpose and there is a thought process behind its dramatic application.

With that I completely agree. But like with every pop song or classical I should be aware of the referential character of the piece. 

For example, if a director in a scene uses the Norwegian national anthem "just because it sounds so pleasant and matches the mood of the scene" and ignoring its symbolic value as a national anthem, then this is a bad usage. So, there are borders to the usage of existing music.

 

[Faleel 5,359]

4 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

With that I completely agree. But like with every pop song or classical I should be aware of the referential character of the piece. 

For example, if a director in a scene uses the Norwegian national anthem "just because it sounds so pleasant and matches the mood of the scene" and ignoring its symbolic value as a national anthem, then this is a bad usage. So, there are borders to the usage of existing music.

 

To be fair, national anthems don't always start out as national anthems.