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Hook

Your thoughts on HOOK the score and movie?  

168 members have voted

  1. 1.

    • LOVE the score, LOVE the movie
      51
    • LOVE the score, the movie is decent
      86
    • LOVE the score, HATE the movie
      13
    • HATE the score, LOVE the movie
      0
    • HATE the score, the movie is decent
      0
    • HATE the score, HATE the movie
      3
    • the score is decent, I LOVE the movie
      0
    • the score and movie are both decent
      10
    • the score is decent, I HATE the movie
      8


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Someone beat you to that idea.

some of the alternates are useless, such as Tink's Arrival.

But some are absolutely essential : The Banquet Film Version with the food appears on the table passage

"Mr. Williams helped to prepare this album and we respectfully bowed to his wishes how his music should be heard. Mr. Williams asked us specifically NOT to include any alternates to not destroy the flow of the listening experience."

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some of the alternates are useless, such as Tink's Arrival.

But some are absolutely essential : The Banquet Film Version with the food appears on the table passage

I think that and the ultimate war stuff (which is amazing) will inevitably be featured as the short insert segments, if anything. Assuming the complete score is released. It's not the way I prefer it, but people here edit this shit in their free time.

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I have a couple of observations/questions:

. The cue titled "Lost Boys Lesson" as found on the early (pre-Concorde) boot is somewhat a mystery for me. Did anyone find for which scene it was written for? I guess a deleted sequence. Also, this cue is absent from the Concorde boot, right?

. I'm more and more convinced that the cue labeled "Exit Music" (or "Alternate Finale" on other boots) was written for the closing of the end credits roll. In the final film it has been replaced with an edit of the Finale cue, but the timings are more or less identical (around 1:50). Am I correct? I guess Williams didn't have the time to write a full-out end credits suite à là Star Wars, so he composed only the opening and the close, leaving the middle stuff ("Lost Boy Chase"/Tink's theme edit) to Ken Wannberg's hands. It's strange however they decided to scrap the original close and replace it with an edit of the Finale.

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The cue titled "Lost Boys Lesson" as found on the early (pre-Concorde) boot is somewhat a mystery for me. Did anyone find for which scene it was written for? I guess a deleted sequence. Also, this cue is absent from the Concorde boot, right?

"Lost Boys Lesson" on the boot is technically a total mystery... it's clearly not for any scene that is still in the film, so must be for a deleted scene. But which deleted scene?

Here's a great & comprehensive list of deleted scenes:

http://www.hook-movi...m/pages/deleted

Now, since the cue in question features Tinkerbell's theme pretty heavily, we can kinda narrow it down to a scene she's featured prominently in. I think the best bet is this scene:

http://www.hook-movi...edscenes/08.htm

We know this scene was filmed from the production still and video on that sight - but also from the movie itself! Basically Peter wakes up in Pirate Town on top of a ship, examines his surroundings, asks a pirate for a payphone... then it cuts to Julia Roberts still in the sheet she carried him to Neverland in, saying "Peter get back here, get down, get low, hide!" Now, her dialogue continues over the next shot, which is a kind of close up of Peter's shoes walking towards a group of pirates, then they chase him for his shoes. It's clear when watching that this trick was use to mask the deleted scene... Peter was supposed to walk down from the ship, end up in the kitchen with Tink and have a whole deleted conversation with her, then go outside and get accosted for his shoes, after which he runs BACK into the same kitchen he was just in with her, and she knocks them all out. The most obvious tell in the final cut is that Peter's hands are perfectly fine when he arrives in Neverland, and is on top of the ship... then a few shots later when he is talking to the pirates about his shoes, he suddenly has a bandage on his hand! This is because of the part in the deleted scene where Tink cuts him with her knife! As an aside, he actually has that hand bandage for a large portion of the movie, all the way up until they launch him in the slingshot after "Pick 'Em Up!".

Now - proving the scene was filmed is one thing, but proving that this particular cue was written for it is another matter entirely. I think it fits, though. The quick way the cue starts could be her cutting him with the knife, Tinkerbell's theme would play while she's trying to get him to say her name and where he is, and then the defeated way the cue ends would be when he leaves the kitchen instead of staying to talk to her. In fact, my theory is that the final notes of the cue line up with the steps his feet take in the shot of the closeup of his shoes as he approaches the pirates.

"5m2 Arrival At Neverland" only actually syncs up with the action up until about 0:57ish (OST timing), which is the end of a long shot of Pirate Town. The rest of the music is just kinda non-specific music that doesn't directly follow any of the remaining on-screen action, so I believe it was actually mostly written for shots we have never seen (as well as the payphone scene). You can hear in the final cut that it doesn't play all the way to the end before Pixie Devil starts I think the end of "Lost Boys Lesson" was supposed to lead into his conversation with the pirates, which would have no score until after he says "I think you can get them at Armani" and it cuts to a shot of them brandishing their knives as "Get Those Shoes" starts

Other evidence to support my theory: "Arrival At Neverland" is 5m2, and "Show Us Your Hook" is 5m5, implying 2 cues should be in the middle. We know that "Get Those Shoes" is one.... and I think this is the other. It doesn't really work musically if you merge all the cues into one long track... but if you let "5m2 Arrival At Neverland" play out on its own, then play "Lost Boys Lesson" as its own cue, and then have "Get Those Shoes" and "S5m5 how Us Your Hook as the next track... it sounds OK.

So that's my big theory. You're welcome to try to persuade me that it's actually for a different deleted scene, I'm open to ideas :)

I'm more and more convinced that the cue labeled "Exit Music" (or "Alternate Finale" on other boots) was written for the closing of the end credits roll. In the final film it has been replaced with an edit of the Finale cue, but the timings are more or less identical (around 1:50). Am I correct? I guess Williams didn't have the time to write a full-out end credits suite à là Star Wars, so he composed only the opening and the close, leaving the middle stuff ("Lost Boy Chase"/Tink's theme edit) to Ken Wannberg's hands. It's strange however they decided to scrap the original close and replace it with an edit of the Finale.

That's certainly plausible!

Unfortunately, the sheet music for the End Credits and this arrangement of the memory theme hasn't surfaced. And the recording sessions version of the end credit hasn't either - both boots simply take it directly from the film itself. However, in the film, only the first 2 minutes of the End Credits are original material, before it segues to music tracked from The Lost Boys Ballet, a cue featuring Tinkerbell's Theme I forget at the moment, and Kensington Gardens. Its certainly POSSIBLE it was meant to segue to other stuff including the memory theme concert arrangement. Who knows! Hopefully the rest of the sheet music will turn up soon :)

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That's certainly plausible!

Unfortunately, the sheet music for the End Credits and this arrangement of the memory theme hasn't surfaced. And the recording sessions version of the end credit hasn't either - both boots simply take it directly from the film itself. However, in the film, only the first 2 minutes of the End Credits are original material, before it segues to music tracked from The Lost Boys Ballet, a cue featuring Tinkerbell's Theme I forget at the moment, and Kensington Gardens. Its certainly POSSIBLE it was meant to segue to other stuff including the memory theme concert arrangement. Who knows! Hopefully the rest of the sheet music will turn up soon :)

My guess is that the end credits suite was planned this way:

. Main theme

. Lost Boys ballet

. Tink's theme

. Memory theme

The segue from the main theme to Lost Boys ballet makes total sense (the former ends on a chord that segues perfectly to the latter). The same can be said about Tink's theme: again it segues perfectly from the Lost Boys ballet and it would segue naturally to Memory theme. I guess Williams probably planned to re-record a full end credit suite that way, but for some reason they decided to use tracked material from "Lost Boys Chase" and "Tink's Arrival" (maybe they ran out of time at recording sessions, who knows). I guess this is why probably it wasn't put on the OST album (which is strange, because Williams always puts end credits suites in his OSTs).

Thanks for the detailed answer Jay! :)

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Well crap, it looks like the Hook movie site when down since I typed all that about the deleted scene (I was quoting an email I wrote a while ago)

Luckily I found them on the wayback machine - unfortunately without all the great pictures and video they had

http://replay.waybac...edscenes/08.htm

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I'll tell you what a paramecium is: THAT'S a paramecium! It's a one-celled critter with no brain, that can't fly! Don't mess with me, man--I'M A LAWYER!

No doubt one of the proudest achievements of the estimable Tom Stoppard.

:P

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Another technical/trivia question:

We know the cue "The Face of Pan" (i.e. "There you are, Peter!") as found on the various bootlegs features a women's chorus, but that was erased fro the OST (re-use fees issues, I guess).

However, it seems to me that the version as heard in the actual film is choir-less as well (or maybe it's mixed very low). Is it right?

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Yup. As written and recorded it featured a choir.

Spielberg dropped it from the film supposedly because they didn't want the choir to appear until Peter actually became Pan later in the film. So the choir was removed from the OST as well.

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I think this is the poll on the entire messageboard with the most votes. 128!

We have 114 people who love the score, 2 who hate the score, and 12 who find it decent.

We have 43 people who love the movie, 14 people who hate it, and 71 people who think its decent

We've had had plenty of new members since the last bump, so vote away, newbies!

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The score is decent and nice. Great themes, not-so-great music overall. Kiddy cute Williams is not for me anymore, I guess. It's all enjoyable, but I find dozens of things more interesting (like Tintin and War Horse, for example). 3,5 stars for me.

The film is horrible.

Karol

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I love the score partly because of childhood nostalgia but mostly because it is so darn fantastic music.

I can't bring myself to hate the movie so I guess I had to vote decent then.

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I have zero connection with the film or the music from my childhood, but listening to it makes me nostalgic. The piano solo in "Remembering Childhood" is pretty much the essence of nostalgia.

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I have zero connection with the film or the music from my childhood, but listening to it makes me nostalgic. The piano solo in "Remembering Childhood" is pretty much the essence of nostalgia.

The Maestro truly captures this so perfectly in this score, the feeling of pure nostalgia. Remembering Childhood is perhaps the best example of this but the yearning quality of most of Farewell to Neverland is almost equally nostalgic.

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Nostalgia is self-indulgence.

And we wouldn't want any of that would we. Makes you sick to your stomach, rots your teeth and then your brain. The horror, the horror.

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If anyone is friends with Conrad Pope on Facebook, check out his recent status about Hook today, there are some interesting tidbits about the score mentioned in the numerous comments from Pope and other professionals.

Can you paste it here for those who can't see it?

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There are something like 40 comments on his status, but I'll try to copy paste some relevant ones.

While maneuvering through traffic, I’ve had a great deal of time to listen to LaLa Land’s “complete” HOOK soundtrack. For many, many reasons there is no soundtrack I enjoy more than this masterpiece from John Williams. The writing is so rich and detailed. Every cue is a trove of musical treasure. The music seems to be John’s paean to Ravel’s Daphnis, Stravinsky’s Firebird and Korngold’s Captain Blood all wrapped in a single score (with even a tip of the “chapeau” to Dave Grusin!). It brings back so many great memories: the sessions, the superb orchestrations of John Neufeld and Alexander Courage, the brilliant, virtuosic playing of the orchestra. Those days and months were filled with great music (and to think that JW was writing yet another masterpiece at the same time: his score to JFK!) Today, it can be quite easy to forget there is any music in “film music”- but, “back in the day”, music flowed so abundantly, so exuberantly it was impossible to imagine that it would ever end. Thank you LaLa Land, thank you very much indeed, for bringing us this

music.

Daniel Schweiger Hope you dug my liner notes for it!
Conrad Pope Daniel Schweiger: Yes, I did--- if you ever want some GREAT behind the scenes stories, contact me--- I've got some doozies! and I mean doozies!
Daniel Schweiger I don't think Sony would've let me get away with them. In fact, they didn't let us mention who even starred in the movie!
Conrad Pope Daniel Schweiger: Well, what I can say really isn't for "public" consumption-- it would only be of interest to people "in the biz".
Larry Kenton Truly one of JW's GREATEST scores ever... I recall those sessions as well and remember seeing you at JoAnn's office and working on some of those scores and proofing things in them! What a wonderful time that was for those of us fortunate enough to have been involved in the music production teams. (And yes, to those stories sometime!)
Dimitrie Leivici Remember those sessions very well, since they were my first ones for John Williams! Never forget his precision and total control of the session as well as captivating the attention of the orchestra like nobody else could do! And not to forget those great musical themes, still have them in my ears after all those years. Just like you, Conrad, I love to recall those great times!
Conrad Pope Hans Offerdal: I also received today the "complete" STAR TREK: NEMESIS from Varese Sarabande. It was the only score I orchestrated on for Jerry Goldsmith ( thanks to my friend, colleague and "orchestrator"hero Mark McKenzie-- who was busy as a composer with his own brilliant score to "Blizzard"--a film whose fate was completely undeserved IMHO). Looking forward to being "stuck in traffic" with JG as well. I must say, it's great to be able to listen to film music "outside" the film. Most of today's scores ( and please know, I include my own in this assessment ) are quite unlistenable outside the film. Times change, music changes but what draws us to listen to it and be absorb by it, doesn't. ( And as I'm generally driving when I listen, I want to be sure I DON'T fall asleep!)
Conrad Pope Dimitrie Leivici: TO perform such music must have been challenging-- but as everyone in the orchestra were thoroughbreds, I'm certain they were "chomping at the bit" for the race! Not included, on the discs ( I think) are the "demo" vocal sessions when a "musical" Peter Pan was being contemplated ( they were recorded at "old" Fox). I think Stuart Canin did the solos for those. See you tomorrow, when we can "recall the old days" at leisure. Tschuess!
Mike Lang I got to work with John on the Grusin-esque peace, suggesting that he get Lee Rienour, Abe Laboriel and Harvey Mason..... a very special recording day for us!
Conrad Pope Mike Lang: Yes, I remember--- what you might not know, is that he sketched that piece in the back of a car, riding between Sony and Fox. Brilliant work, as always, on your part, Mike. Those were the days when each new score by John or Jerry seemed to promise "revelation" and "excitement"... and... purpose.

That's the relevant stuff right now.

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