Composer Threads The Bear McCreary Thread

[pete 909]

On 28/7/2023 at 7:00 AM, Edmilson said:

With McCreary busy with TROP, GOW 

what is GOW?

[Holko 9,575]

God of War

[pete 909]

Thanks.  So is there more music from the games coming or was it a reference to the previous score?

[Holko 9,575]

He did God of War (2018) and its sequel, God of War: Ragnarök (2022), that post was referring to the latter.

[Jay 37,456]

He's saying that since Bear spent a lot of 2022 writing music for Rings of Power and God of War Ragnarok (not to mention The Serpent Queen, We Have A Ghost, and The Witcher Blood Origin), he isn't surprised that much of Foundation Season 2 was farmed out to co-composers.

 

There's only so much time in the day!

[Miz 139]

I don't find Foundation S2 soundtrack any worse than S1. I've fallen in love with Gaal's theme again. Does anyone know of any transcriptions or tutorial videos for this theme?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Inenjoyed his score for the Demeter

[iamleyeti 114]

I'm starting to get a bit tired of "his" music TBH. Demeter is solid, but feels very generic if you've listen to every Bear's score in the last 5 years. I wish he would take a break, evolve a little bit.

 

I do love Foundation Season 2, but yet again, it's building upon the previous season and there's nothing new…

[Knight of Ren 789]

I partially agree with this. I really like his style and his mannerisms, so I don't mind hearing them pop up in new scores but it also depends from score to scote. For example with Demeter I very much prefer the introspective elements of the score, like the lyrical theme in the second half of the title cue, because thr main theme, while effevtive, reminds me a bit too much of some other scores of his, and feels a bit of a mix between God of War, his Cloverfield scores and even ressembling a motif from Season 3 of Outlander.

 

A similar thing happened while listening to Foundation S2. Some great bits, lovely variations on some themes like Gaal's theme or the Foundation theme, but some of the new ideas are a bit of been there done that, perhaps highlighted by the fact that is not a McCreary score, but more a team effort from his assistans. An example of this is how the theme of Brother Constant kept reminding me of John Grey's theme for Outlander.

 

 

 

Even so, I generally enjoy his scores and that kind of recycling of ideas is a bit reminiscent of what James Horner did. And I cannot wait to hear the score for S7 of Outlander, as I find all the scores for each season constantly engaging and interesting!

[Miz 139]

I find each of his albums has much generic dramatic filler and familiar flourishes, all of which work well - or very well - on screen, depending the quality of the drama.

 

That said, every year he still writes at least one score with creative melodies, lovely harmonies, rich instrumentation, and occassionally some fun rock-out moments. That's why I am still interested in his scores.

 

Themes from Foundation for Gaal, and from Rings of Power for Galadriel, Valinor, Isildur and Numenor have all been absolute earworms for me this past year.

 

[mstrox 6,658]

Bear is a very collector-oriented 80-minute disc fella, but really a living testament to the value of the 30- to 40-minute OST format.

[iamleyeti 114]

11 hours ago, Miz said:

I find each of his albums has much generic dramatic filler and familiar flourishes, all of which work well - or very well - on screen, depending the quality of the drama.

 

That said, every year he still writes at least one score with creative melodies, lovely harmonies, rich instrumentation, and occassionally some fun rock-out moments. That's why I am still interested in his scores.

 

Themes from Foundation for Gaal, and from Rings of Power for Galadriel, Valinor, Isildur and Numenor have all been absolute earworms for me this past year.

 

The themes from Rings of Power are almost all of them absolute bangers!

It helps that Gaal's Theme, Galadriel's Theme, and… another one from God of War… are very very close  

[dylanskie 104]

Looks like Outlander's season 7 will get a "highlights" album sometime soon. These three tracks were uploaded about two weeks ago:

 

https://www.nhaccuatui.com/playlist/outlander-season-7-highlights-from-the-original-television-soundtrack-bear-mccreary.eCoTF3d3Tn3L.html

 

This extended version of Sinéad's Skye Boat Song is much better than the titles version. I think it gives more time for her voice to blend with the instrumentation.

[JNHFan2000 2,975]

I believe an album is coming on Sept. 11. 

 

I'm not sure if it's just these 3 tracks or if it's longer. I certainly hope it's longer.

 

And if it's not then maybe they'll release a more expanded album when the 2nd half of Season 7 airs

[Richard Penna 3,735]

Sadly O'Connor's version of Skye doesn't do it for me at all - it feels too rough for the song and takes too many liberties with rhythm.

 

But I look forward to hearing the rest of the album as a concept, as I won't be watching the show while it's behind a Starz subscription.

[Knight of Ren 789]

For me the best version of the Skye Boat song still remains Raya Yarbrough's original arrangemet for S1, even if I quite like a lot some of the later ones, the Gaelic version in S6 being an unexpected but welcome surprise.

 

I hope on September we can hear more than just those three cues, but who knows...

[John F 100]

Would be awesome if he got the Apple TV Godzilla show gig. His King of the Monsters score remains my favorite of the franchise. Killer. 

[Knight of Ren 789]

Ohh, I wasn't aware of the existence of that show, but I absolutely love his Godzilla score as well. Perfect blend of old and new. He's also worked on a few Apple TV shows, so perhaps there's a chance!

[JNHFan2000 2,975]

That music is soo good. Most exciting thing about the series!

 

 

[Knight of Ren 789]

Yess! I love McCreary's work on Revelations, a score full of energy and memorable themes, and hearing again He-Man's theme is so great! The show was okay and this looks like a continuation lf the same style, but I really cannot wait for the score for this second part!

[KittBash 283]

PLEASE let there be a CD release for this show too! I've listened to the last two probably more than any score in a LONG time! 

[KittBash 283]

Looks like Bear won’t be the only composer this time around? Hopefully it will still be as awesome. 
 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0MJd33uq5pEoVadBWx16PNoX4kVPCteNH4rh3jGuTaG1EbweGnPmLe8YVUs2vxt3Cl&id=100064537186281&mibextid=qC1gEa

 

[Stark 319]

On 27/9/2023 at 10:37 PM, KittBash said:

Looks like Bear won’t be the only composer this time around? Hopefully it will still be as awesome. 
 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0MJd33uq5pEoVadBWx16PNoX4kVPCteNH4rh3jGuTaG1EbweGnPmLe8YVUs2vxt3Cl&id=100064537186281&mibextid=qC1gEa

 

I guess Bear has decided (or it’s been strongly advised to him) to credit his long-time additional composers as co-composers, via this method.

[Richard Penna 3,735]

Or he's starting on RoP again and this one will have to be done primarily by his team.

[Chen G. 3,990]

I think there's still some way to go before he's really composing for season two.

[JNHFan2000 2,975]

Busy busy busy

 

 

[Jay 37,456]

When does this man sleep and spend time with his family

[Faleel 5,400]

12 minutes ago, Jay said:

When does this man sleep and spend time with his family

When his additionals are composing.

[JNHFan2000 2,975]

Yeah, I feel this might be a case like Foundation Season 2. And if that is the case I hope it's correctly credited. Just like Newton Howard has done on Willow & the upcoming Pain Hustlers

 

I love McCreary, but he needs to make sure he doesn't get overexposed like Balfe is.

[Edmilson 7,527]

He has a whole team to help him. Something like TROP, where he did everything on his own, is the exception rather than the rule.

[Chen G. 3,990]

41 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Something like TROP, where he did everything on his own

 

And even on that he had orchestrators, which are a huge help in terms of workload in a project like that.

 

I also think Bear gave Season One a big push because he knew it'd make life easier on future seasons: Theoretically, he has pretty much all the themes and colours he needs for the show all lined-up...

[Yavar Moradi 2,623]

I mean, Howard Shore certainly added a whole host of new themes on The Two Towers and Return of the King…. It’ll probably be *less* of a lift than on the first season, but I’m sure he’ll still have a lot of new material he has to write.

 

Yavar

[Chen G. 3,990]

That's right. But then, Howard and Bear are working in slightly different idioms. Howard worked in a more traditionally leitmotivic idiom where there is less of a one-to-one connection between the drama and the music, so a character (for example) could have multiple themes (and therefore have more themes added in later entries) because they're not themes of that character per se so much as themes that relate to aspects of that character. Whereas, in Bear's score, it does feel like the themes are more indexical in function. So there would really be no use, in his modus operandii, to write ANOTHER theme for Galadriel or for Adar or for Khazad Dum or what have you. Also, Shore's score puts mor emphasis on development, so it makes sense that themes would transform into new themes as the cycle goes on. Whereas Bear's score is more (but not entirely) static in this regard.

 

But, more importantly, they write for two very different pieces of media. The films Shore scored were by and large a "Quest" narrative, where the characters kept on going to new places and meeting new people. The Rings of Power is, by and large, not a quest narrative: it set-up a couple of major settlements in Season One (Lindon, Eregion, Khazad Dum, Numenore, Rhovanion, Mordor) and those would be the places in which the plot will happen. There will be new places and characters introduced, no doubt, but they'll much less significant to the ongoing narrative compared to, say, the way Theoden or Bard had been.

 

Bear said during the later blogs for Season One he already has something in mind for Gil galad for season two, for example. So there'll obviously be additions going on constantly, but probably to a much, much lesser extent that Howard had/felt compelled to make.

[Yavar Moradi 2,623]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

That's right. But then, Howard and Bear are working in slightly different idioms. Howard worked in a more traditionally leitmotivic idiom where there is less of a one-to-one connection between the drama and the music, so a character (for example) could have multiple themes (and therefore have more themes added in later entries) because they're not themes of that character per se so much as themes that relate to aspects of that character. Whereas, in Bear's score, it does feel like the themes are more indexical in function. So there would really be no use, in his modus operandii, to write ANOTHER theme for Galadriel or for Adar or for Khazad Dum or what have you.

 

I dunno about this... it feels like you're trying to make some kind of distinction without much of a difference. Both scores are highly leitmotivic to my ears. I take it you're thinking of Gollum, who kinda has three themes? But his wonderful original Fellowship theme unfortunately pretty much gets abandoned in favor of his cimbalom-led motif in the next two scores, and I view "Gollum's Song" as a pretty separate thing. And I guess Sauron has 2-3 themes (depending on whether you count the History of the Ring theme as one of his, which I personally don't). Now some other characters like Eowyn have themes, sure... but in general I'd say Shore is more concerned with themes for the various cultures and factions of Middle Earth. Does Sam get a theme? Merry and Pippin? I don't think so; rather, the Hobbits get a theme. Does Elrond get a theme? I don't think so, but Rivendell certainly does, nicely distinct from Lothlorien. There's a theme for Rohan itself (and all its people, collectively) rather than a theme for Theoden, if I recall correctly. Same goes for Gondor.

 

Now take McCreary's work... there's a theme for Durin, yes... and ALSO a theme for the Dwarves. There's a theme for Nori Brandyfoot... and ALSO a theme for the harfoots. There are themes specifically for Elrond and Galadriel, in addition to material for the elves collectively (Valinor). And (spoiler-ish alert) Sauron STILL gets two themes... or arguably two very different sides of the same theme, which honestly feels very much like something Howard Shore would do.

 

So yeah maybe their approaches aren't strictly speaking *identical*, but I don't understand the point in saying they are in different idioms. Did Howard Shore write multiple themes for that many characters?

 

I suspect season two of Rings of Power will have enough new locales/factions/characters introduced that Bear will be writing new themes just as Howard did with all the subsequent Middle Earth films after Fellowship. I really don't see what's much different.

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Also, Shore's score puts more emphasis on development, so it makes sense that themes would transform into new themes as the cycle goes on. Whereas Bear's score is more (but not entirely) static in this regard.

 

I very much disagree with this.

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

But, more importantly, they write for two very different pieces of media. The films Shore scored were by and large a "Quest" narrative, where the characters kept on going to new places and meeting new people. The Rings of Power is, by and large, not a quest narrative: it set-up a couple of major settlements in Season One (Lindon, Eregion, Khazad Dum, Numenore, Rhovanion, Mordor) and those would be the places in which the plot will happen. There will be new places and characters introduced, no doubt, but they'll much less significant to the ongoing narrative compared to, say, the way Theoden or Bard had been.

 

We know relatively little about season 2 or what new characters/situations/factions may be present, so I don't see how you can know this. Multiple characters have quests in Rings of Power. It's just that they start out with their separate goals and occasionally meet up, rather than the story Shore scored which started out with a Fellowship that then split up into different quests for each character.

 

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Bear said during the later blogs for Season One he already has something in mind for Gil galad for season two, for example. So there'll obviously be additions going on constantly, but probably to a much, much lesser extent that Howard had/felt compelled to make.

 

Again, why? It's not just new "known" characters we might be introduced to in season two, like Cirdan the Shipwright, who could get new themes. Aren't the harfoots journeying with proto-Mithrandir into the East? That's a minimally explored part of Middle Earth and I can't wait to hear what new soundscapes Bear comes up with for that. No doubt they will encounter some new and interesting characters there too, who might get their own thematic material.

 

Yavar

[Knight of Ren 789]

Was a bit disappointed reading he wasn't going to score the Apple TV Godzilla show, but I think this will provide a great chance for him and his team to do a great score! I loved the books when I was younger and the show seems like it's going to be a faithful adaptation, so I hope the music delivers as well!

[Faleel 5,400]

@Yavar Moradi

 

Merry the Warrior.

 

Strider

Aragorn

 

Arwen

3 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I very much disagree with this.

 

 

 

Yavar

Could you describe the development the you are hearing?

[Chen G. 3,990]

8 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

And I guess Sauron has 2-3 themes (depending on whether you count the History of the Ring theme as one of his, which I personally don't). Now some other characters like Eowyn have themes, sure... but in general I'd say Shore is more concerned with themes for the various cultures and factions of Middle Earth.

 

This is exactly my point: the themes aren't as "indexical." Sauron doesn't have themes in the same sense that Bear McCreary gives a theme to Galadriel (or in the sense that Wagner gives to Hunding): they're not themes of Sauron so much as themes that are associated, in part, with aspects of Sauron. Same with Eowyn: were it not for Doug Adams' book, I think we would be inclined to classify at least one of the "Eowyn" themes more broadly as a secondary Rohan motive.

 

One of the elements separating (and this distinction is widely accepted in the literature) the mature leitmotive from the kind of reminiscence music that we see in most Hollywood scores, including Bear's score (or in stuff like Der Freischutz) IS that many of the themes are less clearly indexical; they're broader and more flexible.

 

Another is the use of development, which is very much a fixture of the Shore's scores and is, by and large, not a predominant feature of Bear's: there are some places where, say, Galadriel's music is "poisoned" by Sauron's chords, or where Sauron's music and the Southland music play in canon (so as to reveal that they're almost the same music), but they're relatively rare. And, as a result, there are less chances of this spinning new themes out of old ones that we have in Shore.

 

8 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

We know relatively little about season 2 or what new characters/situations/factions may be present, so I don't see how you can know this.

 

I mean, its in how Tolkien sets it up.

 

Spoiler

Numenore falling gradually under the tyrannical rule of Pharazon

Khazad Dum obviously falling prey to the Balrog

Eregion being besieged by Sauron

Mordor obviously becoming more fortified

 

Its less of a "we need to get from point A to point Z, with B-X along the way" kind of story. There'll obviously be new characters and even new places introduced (Rivendell, Lorien, Rhun, Gondor eventually) and important artefacts like the One Ring, but I bet the bulk of it - dramatically and musically - will be the workings out of the characters and the places we've already seen.

[iamleyeti 114]

I'm finally watching FOUNDATION and I think I would have liked another album for Season 1 and a longer one for Season 2. McCreary and his team (I would love to know exactly who, btw) really did good with that show, carrying a lot of emotions through a messy plot.

 

And I can't wait for his work on the… many… MANY new shows

[JNHFan2000 2,975]

 

[Tom Guernsey 2,304]

1 minute ago, JNHFan2000 said:

 

Cool news. Hope the music for this is actually fun epic stuff and not too dreary and serious. Looking forward to it though. 

[Edmilson 7,527]

"along with my brilliant team at @SparksShadows."

 

In other words: "I wrote some themes and scored parts of the pilot, my team will do the rest".

[Knight of Ren 789]

He's been doing that for some time now, and I don't really see it as a bad thing. At least they're openly credited and aren't relegated to being "ghost-writers", while the composer gets all the credit for it. And it makes sense, since he does a lot of stuff for TV, which requires a lot of hours of music.

 

As for the music itself, I think it will be a nice blend of epic stuff and lighthearted fun, coming closer to the later as the books only start to get more serious as the series goes on. Really looking forward to this!

[mstrox 6,658]

Yeah, he and a lot of composers do this.  It’s rad that some artists are providing accurate credit. 

[JNHFan2000 2,975]

I would love it if McCreary did the themes, pilot and finale himself.

 

And give different episodes to different members of his team. That way the crediting would be easier as well

[Knight of Ren 789]

I guess he will do the themes and some of the more important cues of the seasons, but I agree that having each of the additional composers do an episode would clarify who did what.

[Edmilson 7,527]

That could be great, but I'm not sure if that's how it works. From what I understand, when a team of composers is working on a show (or a movie, but this is a whole other discussion) they receive the scenes they're assigned to score and many times these scenes are not in chronological order. It's not like one person scores episode 2, then other does ep 3, etc., more like someone does 5 minutes of episodes 2 and 3, then his colleague scores 7 more minutes of eps 2 and 4, and so it goes.

 

But I may be wrong. I guess we'll know for sure when the show comes out and McCreary publishes his inevitable blog post detailing the proccess.

[JNHFan2000 2,975]

I know it's not the way, it's more like I would like it to be that way.

 

Then you get a bit of the same feel like with The Orville. Multiple composers working on different episodes but still have a cohesive sound that crosses over to each episode.

 

I'm not really a fan of the "Sparks & Shadows" credit. That way it sounds like a studio or a program instead of a group of very talented people

[Edmilson 7,527]

19 hours ago, JNHFan2000 said:

I'm not really a fan of the "Sparks & Shadows" credit. That way it sounds like a studio or a program instead of a group of very talented people

I agree. In an ideal world, each episode would credit each people who worked on it, and I feel the industry is slowly marching towards there. Willow had Xander Rodzisnki credited for episodes 4 to 8.

 

Speaking of McCreary, I've been playing God of War: Ragnarok over the past few days, and his score for the game is awesome. 

[thestat 353]

McCreary can be awesome, but he needs to avoid the Balfefication of his work. Foundation was a great score but there were sections where you could hear the lack of attention to the music (silly ostinato nonsense etc) that seems very un-Bear like

[Tom Guernsey 2,304]

12 hours ago, thestat said:

McCreary can be awesome, but he needs to avoid the Balfefication of his work. Foundation was a great score but there were sections where you could hear the lack of attention to the music (silly ostinato nonsense etc) that seems very un-Bear like

That's kind my feeling. Spread yourself too thin in an unmanageable way and you have to resort to short cuts. It's a shame he's still being dragged into TV shows. Sure, they are good quality TV shows, but it still ends up being musical content providing. Outside of his TV work, I get that feeling from all these long TV score albums generally. I mean, Ahsoka has some great music in it, but a fair chunk of marking time on occasion.

 

Then again there were those years when Ennio or Jerry or James Horner did astonishing numbers of scores they were quite able to maintain quality... albeit I know Ennio wasn't always writing 2 hours of music scored to picture, James Horner supposedly had a bit of help on a few of his 90s scores and Jerry... well he was just fucking magic. It was the ponytail.