How will history remember John Williams?

[Jeff 10]

The board has been quiet for a few days so I thought I'd throw in another poll. The choices above are quite narrow and may force you to choose an option that you don't entirely agree with; go ahead an do so anyway and explain your reasoning below.

I also thought this was an interesting way to bring up a discussion of the distinction between an artist and an entertainer - does your choice of medium automatically categorize you as art or entertainment (i.e., television = entertainment, theater = art), or can you be an artist within any medium? Does it take time before you can be considered an artist? For example, was Dickens an entertainer in the 1800s but his work became considered classic literature over time? Is an entertainer inferior to an artist or can a great entertainer be on the same plane as a great artist? It was difficult for me to choose names to go next to the options - feel free to challenge my choices.

Let the debate begin!

[Wojo 2,453]

Who?

[Datameister 2,091]

Somewhere between the first two.

[Quintus 5,399]

As the musical mastermind behind some of cinemas biggest, most beloved movies. No more, no less.

He won't have the iconic status of the likes of Mozart and Beethoven.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Well art has two purposes: to entertain and arouse emotions, and to stimulate thought. So being an artist in itself is being an entertainer.

[Jeff 10]

Well art has two purposes: to entertain and arouse emotions, and to stimulate thought. So being an artist in itself is being an entertainer.

So one can be "merely" an entertainer (whose work does not rise to the level of art), or an artist (who is also an entertainer because his work entertains). Can one be an artist whose work does not entertain?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Well art has two purposes: to entertain and arouse emotions, and to stimulate thought. So being an artist in itself is being an entertainer.

So one can be "merely" an entertainer (whose work does not rise to the level of art), or an artist (who is also an entertainer because his work entertains). Can one be an artist whose work does not entertain?

I think so. Using the context of film: A movie can be entertaining and have you ask "What happens next? yet not make you ask "What does this mean?" I was implying that John Williams is both an artist and an entertainer, because his work fulfills those two purposes.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

He's kinda underrated right now. When he is gone, people will really appreaciate him. It happens with every great artist.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I doubt everyone is gonna start bawling over JW when he dies, like with MJ.

"RIP king of soundtracks" won't plague Facebook statuses.

[Wojo 2,453]

He'll get a respectable amount of coverage in the papers and on the news, but no, he will not attract the media circus that Jackson's death did.

Though I scarcely remember any news coverage of Goldsmith's passing, and my only exposure to any composer's death was when I turned the car radio to PBS and they played the theme from The Magnificent Seven in tribute of Elmer Bernstein, and I went "huh."

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,493]

I also feel he's underrated. I get the impression that the classical crowd view him as an abomination. The seasoned film score crowd view him as inferior to Goldsmith, Hermann et al. and possibly in far worse light. Then you have the more modern crowd that listen to MV electronic bass rhythms and could care less about JW.

[Henry B 50]

He's kinda underrated right now. When he is gone, people will really appreaciate him. It happens with every great artist.

No... it doesn't.

[Demondm810 399]

I haven't heard anything from Goldsmith that would even allow me to entertain the possibility of him being superior to JW.

[Datameister 2,091]

Neither have I. Goldsmith did some jaw-droppingly amazing stuff...but this is Williams we're talking about.

I think Williams still has a pretty decent fanbase, for a film composer. If you go to his concerts, you'll see a LOT of people having a really great time. Many of them are much more casual fans, of course...but they still appreciate his music. And if the man were still composing top-notch scores for iconic films that quickly earned the public's widespread adoration, I'll bet his fanbase would be bigger.

There will probably always be an elitist segment of the population that inexplicably looks down on his music as being ripe with plagiarism and embarrassing simplicity and whatnot. There will also be the rather large segment that would rather hear the blunt-force-trauma approach of Zimmer and friends...that's unavoidable. But I'm confident that those with a serious interest in film scores will continue to acknowledge his status as one of the most influential film composers of the latter half of the 20th century - and they'll recognize that he was, in a way, the last of his kind.

And he'll always be my favorite.

[Taikomochi 1,145]

Who?

What's a history?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Honestly I think he's dropping down my favorite composers list for the first time since, ever.

Initially #1, then tied for #1 with Ennio Morricone, now he's probably going to slip to #3 while Giacchino takes the #2/#1 spot. It's all beginning to make sense! Giacchino was always #1!!!

[Jacob 0]

[Luke Skywalker 1,807]

morricone nº1?

only in ammount of (rather bland with some great main themes) scores.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

As the Star Wars & Spielberg guy.

Who knows. Maybe he'll end up being Salieri to Jerry Goldsmith's Amadeus. (I'm talking real history terms, where Salieri was very popular at his time, not in the movie's terms).

[Jay 37,488]

Somewhere between the first two.

this

[filmmusic 1,885]

Well, i'm not sure a composer could be considered as an enterntainer. Or i don't know English well?

Does anyone know of a composer who is considered an "entertainer"?

[Jeff 10]

Well, i'm not sure a composer could be considered as an enterntainer. Or i don't know English well?

Does anyone know of a composer who is considered an "entertainer"?

Well that's a good point, because "entertainer" is often used to mean someone who "performs" for the amusement of an audience. Here, I'm using "entertainer" to mean someone who creates something that will be used to entertain, but doesn't necessarily perform it, although John is good at the "performance" and packaging aspects of his craft, as well. But that's not necessarily new - as I understand it, the early composers (including Mozart) sometimes debuted their own works in a live performance.

I would be interested in seeing John tap dance, though.

[Datameister 2,091]

Perhaps the distinction would be better described as art vs. business?

Of course, the line was often blurred with the classical composers, too.

[Quintus 5,399]

morricone nº1?

only in ammount of (rather bland with some great main themes) scores.

The last word I'd use to describe Morricone is bland.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,493]

I think that film music will become increasingly electronic, un-thematic and irrelevant overall. It will just be background noise. Future generations will look back fondly at the era of Williams and revival of big orchestral scores.

[Quintus 5,399]

Only until the next revival, that is.

[Jeff 10]

Only until the next revival, that is.

Agreed. If orchestral scores really are as good as we all [apparently] think they are, eventually someone will emulate Williams just as he did Max Stein et al in the 70s.

[Marian Schedenig 8,241]

I went for #1: As an artist (of the entertainment kind). Kinda like the Strauß family.

[Henry B 50]

I think that film music will become increasingly electronic, un-thematic and irrelevant overall. It will just be background noise. Future generations will look back fondly at the era of Williams and revival of big orchestral scores.

[King Mark 3,631]

I think Williams music is good enough to be played at classical concerts and become "crowd pleasers". I've heard Adventures on Earth and Raiders' March and the classical crowd really got into it and gave it thunderous applause.

But right now they mostly play Schindler's List and it's a bit underwhelming live (polite applause from crowd)

[Red 75]

Williams will be remembered as the greatest movie composer ever. I'm sure of it.

[King Mark 3,631]

yes.

Can anyone hum an Alfred Newman theme? Not really .And apart from the Psycho shower scene nobody knows what Herrman wrote. Jerry Goldsmith is already forgotten except by Star Trek geeks and the FSM message board

also the "golden age" movie music sound (Max Steiner) doesn't blend well with Classical Music ,but Williams concert versions of themes do.You can mix Raiders March or Star Wars with some Holst but not Gone with the Wind

[John Crichton 4]

Williams will be remembered as the greatest movie composer ever. I'm sure of it.

I think you're right. And certainly more remembered in the mainstream than any other.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Williams will be remembered somewhere in between the first two options. He will stand alongside composers like Souza, Bernstein, Herrmann, Korngold, Steiner and the like. More artistic than Elvis and other "entertainers", but more popularist than high art composers such as Beethoven.

[Datameister 2,091]

Only until the next revival, that is.

Agreed. If orchestral scores really are as good as we all [apparently] think they are, eventually someone will emulate Williams just as he did Max Stein et al in the 70s.

Yep. It has to happen eventually. Obviously, things will be different - we can't expect "the next Williams" to sound any more like Williams than Williams sounds like Stein and friends. But that real orchestral sound, with solid orchestration and great performance and tasteful use of synths and fantastic melodies and so forth...that's gonna have to come back in some form eventually.

[Hlao-roo 389]

He will be remembered as one of the best forwards ever to wear a Cavaliers uniform.

[Datameister 2,091]

Interesting, he had more hair back then.

[Wojo 2,453]

yes.

Can anyone hum an Alfred Newman theme? Not really .

km, I'm surprised at you. I would think a John Williams nut like you would have greater familiarity with his Star Wars albums.

I can not only give you an Alfred Newman theme, I can present someone "humming" it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubheq8XTOVY

And apart from the Psycho shower scene nobody knows what Herrman wrote. Jerry Goldsmith is already forgotten except by Star Trek geeks and the FSM message board

also the "golden age" movie music sound (Max Steiner) doesn't blend well with Classical Music ,but Williams concert versions of themes do.You can mix Raiders March or Star Wars with some Holst but not Gone with the Wind

Familiarity of a composer is directly proportional to how much his movies are hammered into our collective consciousness through the public media. Aside from Psycho's signature musical moment, what other Herrmann music has been played to death over the past 30 years as much as Star Wars or Indiana Jones? None I would reckon. That makes it harder for people outside the film soundtrack niche community (there's only about 3000 left in the world) to know the guy by name.

And in a strict sense, Holst didn't write "classical music." His birth in 1874 places him 50 years or so after the end of the "classical era," and firmly in the "romantic" and "20th century" eras. "Classical music" is used too interchangeably and incorrectly as a term for any instrumental music since the dawn of transcribed music until the 1920s or so when jazz and vocal music became more prevalent.

[MrScratch 294]

He'll be remembered as sort of the John Philip Sousa of his time, I voted for Entertainer. Sousa was a popular composer and not held in the same regard as the Brahms and Mahlers of his time.

Williams is undoubtedly part of 20th century pop culture so he won't be forgotten altogether.

His concert works and dramatic films scores will be forgotten, but his big main themes will always be performed and recorded just like Sousa's marches.

[Marian Schedenig 8,241]

also the "golden age" movie music sound (Max Steiner) doesn't blend well with Classical Music ,but Williams concert versions of themes do.You can mix Raiders March or Star Wars with some Holst but not Gone with the Wind

Erm...

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,493]

Yeah, that's bullshit king mark. You had to single out Gone With the Wind?

[Wojo 2,453]

Tara's Theme is epic, sweeping, and romantic, and fits in nicely with the great epic romantic themes of 19th century music. The cutesy Dixie and dance pieces from Gone with the Wind don't. They date the picture.

But even purists of "classical music" wouldn't necessarily lump the "pop" music of the great composers -- ballets, operas, etc. -- with the more "serious" pieces like symphonies and concertos. What makes anyone think that John Williams, a writer of great instrumental music for pop functions, will be spoken in the same sentence as composers of great music for music's sake, like Mozart and Beethoven?

Wait a minute, I think I just used them all in one sentence.

Over time, the original function of music is blurred, and it's easy to group music by similarity more than original purpose. We've proven that by listening to albums of "background music" far removed from the images of their original films.

Bach originally wrote music for church services. Do people listen to him more now in church settings or as "classical" (baroque) music to be enjoyed separately?

[publicist 4,643]

The relevance of STAR WARS and INDIANA JONES are so grossly overrated on this board, it's not even funny.

[Wojo 2,453]

Sure it's funny.

[Miguel Andrade 1,267]

"John Williams will go down as one of the greatest composers." -- Leonard Slatkin, american conductor

That quote from a Slatkin's interview from a few years ago sounds that Williams is hardly underrated.

I guess that that is clear for anyone who attended this years Tanglewood on Parade, the anual summer gala from one of U.S. top orchestras.

Will he be placed along Beethoven or Bach? Of course not -- but he might be remembered along other music masters like Copland, Barber and Bernstein, to mention some of his countrymen.

On a side note, when Goldsmith passed away, he was mentioned in several major newspapers in Portugal. A short obituary, but not any larger than the lesser known to public artist. As for Williams, he is mentioned every now and then... last year there was something about the 1984 olympics on the news, and the news anchor mentioned how those were lost and won at the sound of Williams' Olympic Fanfare. And a couple of months ago, Williams made the morning news for having his music performed by the prestigious Wiener Philharmonic. I don't know to what that counts... but it happens that often.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Over time, the original function of music is blurred, and it's easy to group music by similarity more than original purpose. We've proven that by listening to albums of "background music" far removed from the images of their original films.

You mean "Pillow Talk" wasn't written as a sex aid?

[karelm 2,915]

As much as I love JW, when he is gone he will be remembered as the last of an era that will then be part of history - he'll still have an influence, but it will be somewhat like Bernard Herrmann - someone who conjures up a sound, time, and a place rather than a style that continues to exert influence. That’s why I don’t think he can be reproduced by a next generation – he is part of his time and that time would be over since he’s the last of it - the classic Hollywood style. I also think some of his less popular works might get some more attention and reevaluation in time since the hoopla surrounding his more popular works dies down (or is viewed more contextually) since it completely overshadows his other music. He doesn't seem to have broken any new ground - rather mastered his craft to a degree that is exceedingly rare and even less valued these days. Perhaps he’ll be thought of more like Rachmaninoff - a traditionalist who took great care in the works he produced but is clearly in the post Tchaikovsky tradition that remains in its time and place rather than having the ongoing influence of some of the other composers who did break new ground (Berlioz, Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky, etc).

[A24 4,366]

I also feel he's underrated. I get the impression that the classical crowd view him as an abomination.

That's because he's still alive, you silly.

[TownerFan 4,991]

Will he be placed along Beethoven or Bach? Of course not -- but he might be remembered along other music masters like Copland, Barber and Bernstein, to mention some of his countrymen.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's because he's still alive, you silly.

Well, in a year or two, that problem might be solved!