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What Is The Last Score You Listened To? (older scores)


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The Adventures of Tintin and War Horse. 2011 was an excellent year for John Williams fans. Both albums are hugely enjoyable.   Karol

LOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring (CR) by Howard Shore   Damn, is this shit good. I've waxed enough poetic about these scores, but this time, I'm especially struck by how FOTR works as a mood

Elmer Bernstein - The Unused Scores   This set spans three Bernstein rejections, starting in 1985 - probably his first - to 1995, when he already became notorious for being thrown off as muc

20 hours ago, Bellosh said:

Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (LLL Expanded)

 

The Fellowship of the Ring (Complete)

 

Jaws 2 (Intrada Expanded)

 

Just so you know, the CR release of Fellowship is not complete, not by a long mile

 

And the other two you marked as expanded are complete :lol:

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Sure, but I don't consider missing source music making a release incomplete.  But maybe that's just me.  Good point, though.

 

And I just remembered HP2 isn't complete either, the film insert that transitions The Train Station into The Flying Car is still unreleased.  Oh well.

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3 minutes ago, Jay said:

Sure, but I don't consider missing source music making a release incomplete.  But maybe that's just me.  Good point, though.

 

Well, for some users here it seems like the most obscure source music is the most important. :lol:

 

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

And I just remembered HP2 isn't complete either, the film insert that transitions The Train Station into The Flying Car is still unreleased.  Oh well.

 

Couldn't it be found when the box set was prepared?

 

Btw, is the expanded Jaws complete, excluding source music?

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8 minutes ago, Jay said:

And I just remembered HP2 isn't complete either, the film insert that transitions The Train Station into The Flying Car is still unreleased. 

?

 

I thought Mike just completely failed at replicating the edit satisfactorily.

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18 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Well, for some users here it seems like the most obscure source music is the most important. :lol:

 

I would certainly love to be able to have it, but it's massively more important to me that all the actual score cues are there.

 

18 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Couldn't it be found when the box set was prepared?

 

Of course, it's preserved just fine

 

18 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Btw, is the expanded Jaws complete, excluding source music?

 

Absolutely.

 

13 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

:( :angry: :pat: :|

 

They should never have titled those releases "Complete Recordings"

 

12 minutes ago, Holko said:

?

 

I thought Mike just completely failed at replicating the edit satisfactorily.

 

No, that's not the case.  As originally intended, the film had that bit with Big Ben in it, and the original Flying Car composition started off with that scene.  So, Mike edited the full Train Sation cue into the full Flying Car cue, as would have been the intention for the cut of the film Williams wrote the music to.  If it sounds like a weird transition, that's as-composed, not an editing problem.

 

Later, the Big Ben scene was cut out of the film, and the beginning of the Flying Car cue with it, so now the resulting new start of the cue began on a different key.  So, an extremely short insert was recorded, which connected the end of The Train Station to the new start of Flying Car, and that tiny insert is heard in the film, but unreleased on any album.  If we had been able to make HP2 and HP3 three-disc sets like HP1, there would have been room to include a "The Train Station / The Flying Car (Film Edit)" track which used that insert and replicated that edit, but alas, it was not to be.

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Huh. The tempo seriously jogs there. It's on JW then, but since there's no album edit to have to replicate for catalogue stuff like with the Basilisk cues, I guess Mike could've chosen pleasant listening over the weird intended transition.

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Perhaps the awkward transition was another reason to record an insert to patch over things

 

I forget now if we discussed presenting Train Station and Flying Car as separate tracks instead of combining them.  I know he worked on that transition several times, it was a tough spot to tackle

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13 minutes ago, Jay said:

They should never have titled those releases "Complete Recordings"

 

 

What is exactly missing? I've listened to that release countless times, and I never missed any cue. Is there a post here on JWFan detailing what is not on the CRs?

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All alternates, some intended film versions that were replaced with a recreation of the film tracking (Conspiracy Unmasked), some bits that were written to be in the film but edited out (some heard on the Rarities like Fighting Uruk-Hai's intro and Isengard's first thematic appearance).

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28 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

 

What is exactly missing? I've listened to that release countless times, and I never missed any cue. Is there a post here on JWFan detailing what is not on the CRs?

 

21 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

Yeah, what is missing? @Jay

 

 

The problems with the FOTR CR can be described in 4 different categories. 

 

1) For the most part, the release retains ALL the film edits - which means all the final film's tracking, looping, dialing out portions of a cue, changing the mix of intended choir performances are ALL retained.  There are a few spots where dialed out music was restored, most most of the time it was not, and the exact film edit was just pressed onto disc.  

 

2) Additionally, some music is FURTHER edited edited down, for example if Shore felt a section had some repetitive bars, he trimmed some out, even thought they are heard in the film.  There is also at least one spot where he looped music (that wasn't looped in the film) on the CR for... listening purposes?

 

3) The release only follows the EE cut of the film, meaning original music composed for and heard in the theatrical cut that got replaced with EE inserts is not on here at all

 

4) There were some true alternates recorded (by true alternate, I mean, a different composition, not just some different instrument lines used in spots) and none of them are included at all.

 

Categories 1 and 2 were no longer an issue with the TTT and ROTK CR releases, but categories 3 and 4 are present in all three CR releases

 

If you check out Faleel's great videos here, you will hear lots of music that is not on the CRs

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23525-the-lord-of-the-rings-score-restored-unused-howard-shore-music-restored-to-picture/

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30 minutes ago, Jay said:

If we had been able to make HP2 and HP3 three-disc sets like HP1, there would have been room to include a "The Train Station / The Flying Car (Film Edit)" track which used that insert and replicated that edit, but alas, it was not to be.

 

Interesting. Was it ever considered to have a shared disc of extras for HP2 and HP3? And what else could have been included as extras?

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1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Interesting. Was it ever considered to have a shared disc of extras for HP2 and HP3?

 

No.

 

Quote

And what else could have been included as extras?

 

Nothing exciting, every thing important made it.  Though I don't think either of us suspected that many people would care about the shawm source piece.

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7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Nothing exciting, every thing important made it. 

 

Then I understand why a third disc was nixed! :lol:

 

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Though I don't think either of us suspected that many people would care about the shawm source piece.

 

I would say that Bolle and Holko amount to 'many'. ;)

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13 minutes ago, Jay said:

The problems with the FOTR CR can be described in 4 different categories.  Categories 1 and 2 were no longer an issue with the TTT and ROTK CR releases, but categories 3 and 4 are present in all three CR releases

 

1) For the most part, the release retains ALL the film edits - which means all the final film's tracking, looping, dialing out portions of a cue, changing the mix of intended choir performances are ALL retained.  There is only a few spots where dialed out music was restored.

 

2) Additionally, some music is FURTHER edited edited down, for example if Shore felt a section had some repetitive bars, he trimmed some out, even thought they are heard in the film.  Further, there is also at least one spot where he looped music within the same track on the CR for... listening purposes?

 

3) The release only follows the EE cut of the film, meaning original music composed for and heard in the theatrical cut that got replaced with EE inserts is not on here at all

 

4) There were some true alternates recorded (by true alternate, I mean, a different composition, not just some different instrument lines used in spots) and none of them are included at all.

 

 

 

If you check out Faleel's great videos here, you will hear lots of music that is not on the CR

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/23525-the-lord-of-the-rings-score-restored-unused-howard-shore-music-restored-to-picture/

 

 

Well that's interesting. The CR still works for me 100% (like I'm sure it does for even the most hardcore LOTR fan) 

 

But I know you're a fan of FOTR, is there any cue on the CR that you really find it noticeable with all the edits?  I don't revisit the film as much as I do the books.

 

I understand how it doesn't feel complete, luckily I'm only like that with the Indiana Jones scores.  I want film versions + alternates + all source for those.

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Gosh, so a complete, definitive version of FOTR would be a pain in the ass to restore.

 

Unless they consider the CRs the definitive edition of the scores for the Expanded Editions, but do another version for the theatrical release, which is impossible, since now the most available versions are the Expandeds.

 

And it's a little sad, I always loved the CRs. But I'll check the other thread to further study it.

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1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

Well that's interesting. The CR still works for me 100% (like I'm sure it does for even the most hardcore LOTR fan) 

 

Oh yea it works the way it is, and will continue to work as it is for you forever, until you really dig into it and realize where all the tracking and edits are, then it will never have the same effect again :lol:

 

 

Quote

But I know you're a fan of FOTR, is there any cue on the CR that you really find it noticeable with all the edits?  I don't revisit the film as much as I do the books.

 

The most noticeable flaw is that the long History of the Ring theme statement with the unique prelude from Parth Galen was re-recorded for the new Prologue AND tracked into Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe AND tracked into A Conspiracy Unmasked, so it plays 3 times early in the score, and in two tracks in a row, despite the fact it was only ever intended by Shore to be used once, at the end of the film!


I also really don't understand why he didn't restore all the great unused music for A Shortcut to Mushrooms.  Oh, and that bit from Saruman The White tracked into The Nazgûl is annoying too

 

Also one of my favorite passages from the entire score - a really cool, eerie, unique rendition of Seduction of the Ring - was dialed out of the film by PJ and then for some reason not restored for the CR release, and it's such a cool piece of music!  I'm talking about this bit, starting at 2:03 (though, I recommend starting to watch at 1:30 to get the full effect):

 

 

I get why PJ dialed out the music when Aragon closes Frodo's hand around the ring, everything works beautifully in the final cut of the film itself, but goddamn, that music should be on the CR!


Watching again now, Shore scored this scene perfectly, with the Seduction theme starting as Aragorn sees Frodo has the ring, and the theme building and building, joined by the whole orchestra as he gets closer and closer, then he closes Frodo's hand, and most of the orchestra goes away, and now the focus is a solo vocal line, like the ring is crying out for a new master despite being muffled being two sets of hands, a last fading grasp for power.  It's brilliant!

 

Quote

I understand how it doesn't feel complete, luckily I'm only like that with the Indiana Jones scores.  I want film versions + alternates + all source for those.

 

I do as well, and yea, your passion for those scores is basically the same as my passion for these

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38 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Gosh, so a complete, definitive version of FOTR would be a pain in the ass to restore.

 

Not sure why you think that.  It'd be no different than what they did for TTT and ROTK, which is go back to the actual full session recordings, rather than using the film dub.  Simple.

 

38 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Unless they consider the CRs the definitive edition of the scores for the Expanded Editions, but do another version for the theatrical release, which is impossible, since now the most available versions are the Expandeds.

 

What do you mean, "most available versions"?  Do you mean the films themselves?  If you do, I'd disagree with that, and say that since day 1, the theatrical and EE versions of each film have been equally available.

 

And the proper way to do these three scores would be to hire a Matessino or Bulk type producer and give them access to the complete recording sessions and let them do their job, give these scores the same treatment as any other score they work on, a complete main program followed by an extremely comprehensive bonus track section.

 

But that won't happen, at least not for decades, I'd imagine.

 

38 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

And it's a little sad, I always loved the CRs. But I'll check the other thread to further study it.

 

Once you go down the path, you can never un-hear the edits and tracking again!

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5 minutes ago, Jay said:

What do you mean, "most available versions"?  Do you mean the films themselves?  If you do, I'd disagree with that, and say that since day 1, the theatrical and EE versions of each film have been equally available.

 

And the proper way to do these three scores would be to hire a Matessino or Bulk type producer and give them access to the complete recording sessions and let them do their job, give these scores the same treatment as any other score they work on, a complete main program followed by an extremely comprehensive bonus track section.

 

But that won't happen, at least not for decades, I'd imagine.

 

 

I was always under the impression that these days it's easier to rent the Expandeds instead of the theatrical version. I guess Amazon Prime is the only place where you could watch the theatrical versions if you don't already own the DVDs/Blu-Ray.

 

But yeah, a restoration by Matessino would be ideal. But I guess it would be such an enourmous project. Maybe a 5 CD box for every score? 3 CDs of music and 2 of bonus.

 

Therefore, a 15 CD box set for all the trilogy, and that's not even counting the Hobbit scores! :blink:

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19 minutes ago, Fal J. M. Skywalker said:

What part of Strider was looped? All I remember is that it keeps the film tracking for the reveal of the Prancing Pony interior.

 

0:19-0:35 is tracked in from 1:50-2:04 of the same track, was it liked that in the film too?  For some reason my memory was that it wasn't like that in the film and this was just done for the CR, but maybe my memory is wrong!

 

EDIT: Oh, I thinking I'm mixing up the fact that 2:16-2:40 was dialed out of the final cut, but restored for the CR.  Funny he decided to different from a cue in this instance to restore dropped music, but not remove tracked music!

 

16 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I was always under the impression that these days it's easier to rent the Expandeds instead of the theatrical version. I guess Amazon Prime is the only place where you could watch the theatrical versions if you don't already own the DVDs/Blu-Ray.

 

But yeah, a restoration by Matessino would be ideal. But I guess it would be such an enourmous project. Maybe a 5 CD box for every score? 3 CDs of music and 2 of bonus.

 

Therefore, a 15 CD box set for all the trilogy, and that's not even counting the Hobbit scores! :blink:

 

Each score is a different length with a different amount of alternates.  It also depends on how you want to present multiple versions.  For example say he composed three 2-minute cues that were intended to play as a long 6 minute piece in the film, and then later the middle cue has a 30 second insert recorded to replace part of it.  You could either:

 

1) Merge the original versions of each cue as a 6 minute track in the main program, and release the Insert as its own 30 second track in the bonus tracks. Result: 6.5 minutes total space used (nothing duplicated), but the film version people remember only exists as a fragment in the bonus tracks.

 

2) Merge the cues together WITH the insert in the middle cue in the main program, and have a bonus track of the original version of just the middle 2 minute cue.  Result: 8 minutes total space used (1.5 minutes of which is repeated material), the film version people remember is in the main program, but fans who prefer Shore's original take over the version with the Insert cannot just swap tracks in a playlist, they have to bust out a WAV editor to get the surrounding cues attached to it.

 

3) Merge the cues together WITH the insert in the middle cue in the main program, and have a 6 minute bonus track of the original versions without the insert included.  Result: The film version people remember is in the main program, and fans who prefer Shore's original version can just swap tracks in their playlist, but 12 minutes total space is used (and 5.5 minutes of that is repeated material)

 

And you'd have to make that decision on a case by case basis for all the cues with alternates or inserts recorded.

 

But anyway, assuming a modest approach to not repeating that much music whenever possible, you could probably do a 3-disc release for FOTR and TTT and a 4-disc for ROTK, I believe, not having access to everything recorded just speculating based on what we know so far.

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4 hours ago, Bellosh said:

Well that's interesting. The CR still works for me 100% (like I'm sure it does for even the most hardcore LOTR fan) 

 

Wrong. I've always missed the original Journey to Rivendell (without the added Strider theme). Fortunately we got that on the CD that came with Doug Adams's book.

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The FOTR CR isn't a crazy disaster by any means, but they really should have pulled all the cues from the original sessions instead of using the film dub. 

 

In general, I get why Howard Shore wanted to craft new multidisc albums with no bonus tracks and all that, but I hope a release done in that the tried and true specialty label style can happen at some point in the future as well. 

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1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Wrong. I've always missed the original Journey to Rivendell (without the added Strider theme). Fortunately we got that on the CD that came with Doug Adams's book.

thanks to your post, I was actually able to figure  out the connection between those two bits.

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:music: The Peacemaker by Hans Zimmer. Still one of his best and certainly my favourite of his 1990's action scores. Yes, it is bit dated now and lacks certain polish... but Zimmer's action scores had some heart back then. There's some really entertaining stuff in this one and the opening bomb hijacking sequence from this film is easily one of the best things he's ever done. Say what you want about Zimmer but the way he handled this sequence is masterful.

 

 

Karol

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Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within - Elliot Goldenthal

 

Sure, it's Alien 3 part 2. But Goldenthal's experimental writing for orchestra is great enough to make this probably the best score for a movie based on a videogame ever made.

 

He really should be doing more movies. I'd love for example a collaboration between him and Sam Raimi on the upcoming Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness.

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On 4/24/2020 at 1:50 AM, Jay said:

The FOTR CR isn't a crazy disaster by any means, but they really should have pulled all the cues from the original sessions instead of using the film dub. 

 

In general, I get why Howard Shore wanted to craft new multidisc albums with no bonus tracks and all that, but I hope a release done in that the tried and true specialty label style can happen at some point in the future as well. 

 

But why can't you just be content with the music that was released? Such good film music, and people worked really really hard on the release! 

You can't complain about missing music! 

That's what I was told. 

 

Fact is some consider it the best LotR score, yet it got the worst treatment of the 3.

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On 4/26/2020 at 6:42 AM, gkgyver said:

 

But why can't you just be content with the music that was released? Such good film music, and people worked really really hard on the release! 

You can't complain about missing music! 

That's what I was told. 

 

Fact is some consider it the best LotR score, yet it got the worst treatment of the 3.

Shore should compose new variations on the History of the Ring theme in place of the tracked versions throughout the score! Then and only then would I be satisfied. 

 

All the King's Men by James Horner: I really have a soft spot for Horner's darker hued melodrama in this score. It is just full of dramatic tragedy and sorrowful fateful melodies in the most wonderful way.

 

Brothers Grimm by Dario Marianelli: I would love to hear something in this vein from Marianelli again. Spooky, quirky, action-packed and dramatic with good use of unusual sounds and harsher orchestral techniques that never become too much for the ear but lend themselves very well to the dark twisted melange of Grimm's fairy tales directed by Terry Gilliam (although the film doesn't impress me too much). 

 

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2 hours ago, Incanus said:

Shore should compose new variations on the History of the Ring theme in place of the tracked versions throughout the score! Then and only then would I be satisfied. 

 

All the King's Men by James Horner: I really have a soft spot for Horner's darker hued melodrama in this score. It is just full of dramatic tragedy and sorrowful fateful melodies in the most wonderful way.

What I find interesting is that it is probably the only Horner score that I know of where he did all the orchestrations himself. At least this is what the booklet tells us. And yes, it is a wonderful and overlooked gem in his catalogue.

 

Karol

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3 hours ago, crocodile said:

What I find interesting is that it is probably the only Horner score that I know of where he did all the orchestrations himself. At least this is what the booklet tells us. And yes, it is a wonderful and overlooked gem in his catalogue.

 

Karol

I had forgotten that he did all the orchestration for this himself. It is also a score that sounds archetypically Horner but to my ears it feels apart from a single Braveheart quote quite refreshingly new melodically. Then again I am woefully unfamiliar with much of his less well known scores from 1980's and 1990's which might well contain hints of this score in their style.

 

Across the Stars by John Williams and Anne-Sophie Mutter: Wow this is still as phenomenal as ever. I would love a Volume 2 of this please!

 

Pete 'n' Tillie by John Williams: Such an endearing little score that revolves around a tenderly melancholic main theme and variations and at brief 18 minutes it certainly doesn't overstay its welcome either.

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Amistad - John Williams

 

It's just so good.  I love every aspect of this score.  The emotional colors he gets to play with here are very appealing to me: the material for Cinque and the Africans that is at times heartbreaking and horrific at others (check out the chilling choral rendition of Cinque's theme in "Middle Passage").  The solemn, stirring music for Adams.  It's all so wonderful.

 

This is certainly my most wanted Williams expansion at this point.  Please!  MM!  LLL!  I want this more than any Star War or Jones!

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