What Is The Last Film You Watched? (Older Films)

[Brónach 1,302]

7 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Comments have been made that making the lead character male would have been a cliche

 

i haven't seen this one.

 

i don't know if the word is cliche. i think we're allowed to have a movie about a fictional lesbian. they don't make that many of these. or at least interesting ones. (also rarely by lesbians)

 

but then again, i'm neither a conductor nor a filmmaker nor have i seen this one.

 

i haven't yet seen Love Lies Bleeding either

[Chen G. 3,983]

10 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Marin Alsop didn't like it:

Quote

In an interview with The Sunday Times, conductor Marin Alsop shared her dislike of the film, calling it "anti-woman", saying "I was offended: I was offended as a woman, I was offended as a conductor, I was offended as a lesbian. To have an opportunity to portray a woman in that role and to make her an abuser – for me that was heartbreaking."[59] In response, Blanchett told BBC Radio 4, the film was a "meditation on power, and power is genderless", and that while her character shares similarities with Alsop, it is a complete work of fiction.[60]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tár

 

I didn't think it was "anti-woman".

 

This is sad proof to me that we get so few tragedies in film today - stories where a character is brought down by their tragic flaw - that when people see a tragedy they don't know how to digest it.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,617]

Alsop probably has her own agendum.

[Marian Schedenig 8,235]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

This is sad proof to me that we get so few tragedies in film today - stories where a character is brought down by their tragic flaw - that when people see a tragedy they don't know how to digest it.

 

I didn't see Tár (primarily) as a relatable tragic character. She's too close to real life examples of conductors who were horrible tyrants, even if (perhaps even because of that) they produced great artistic results. Someone like Alsop probably had to contend with people like that throughout her career to become successful, maybe even had to oppose them, or maybe even oppose using their method herself (surely male conductors at least can get a career advantage out of at least some of that stuff, as long as they're artistically convincing enough and have enough people on their side). Tár is a character remarkably similar to Alsop in some aspects who probably behaves very much in a way that many people she encountered in reality do and in which she herself probably very deliberately doesn't.

 

That doesn't necessarily make the film "wrong". But she has a point - at the very least a subjective, but valid one.

 

How the film portrays this behaviour seems mostly very accurate. It's quite uncomfortably successful in that regard.

[Glóin the Dark 1,229]

It's always understandable and perfectly legitimate for someone to hate a portrayal of themselves, or even one which is suggested to be partially based on or vaguely inspired by them (whether the suggestion is correct or not). But Alsop's complaint about the offensiveness of Tár (the implied unacceptability of depicting such a character in a negative light) is truly reprehensible, and absolutely shameful coming from someone working in the arts.

[Marian Schedenig 8,235]

I don't think it's an implied general unacceptability, and Alsop's objection may be stronger than it "needs" to be. But as long as it is virtually the *only* film centred on a world-famous, female, lesbian conductor, it's arguably at this point that *every* film with such a character is portraying it as a villain - and I think that's what her phrasing implies ("To have an opportunity to portray a woman in that role and to make her an abuser", emphasis mine). So I do think she has a point, even if it isn't one that has to be shared by everyone. Rejecting it as entirely reprehensible seems about as extreme to me as generally rejecting the film because of her view on it.

[Tom Guernsey 2,299]

41 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I don't think it's an implied general unacceptability, and Alsop's objection may be stronger than it "needs" to be. But as long as it is virtually the *only* film centred on a world-famous, female, lesbian conductor, it's arguably at this point that *every* film with such a character is portraying it as a villain - and I think that's what her phrasing implies ("To have an opportunity to portray a woman in that role and to make her an abuser", emphasis mine). So I do think she has a point, even if it isn't one that has to be shared by everyone. Rejecting it as entirely reprehensible seems about as extreme to me as generally rejecting the film because of her view on it.

I can understand why she was so upset though. In world that’s so male dominated, even more so than for composers I would say, the only fictional representation of your profession and gender being about such a monster must be pretty galling. For what it’s worth, I enjoyed it for the most part even if Tar clearly knows fuck all about Jerry Goldsmith 😜

[Glóin the Dark 1,229]

19 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

...as long as it is virtually the *only* film centred on a world-famous, female, lesbian conductor, it's arguably at this point that *every* film with such a character is portraying it as a villain...

 

Yeah, but only because there's only one such film, so the word "every" isn't signifying much.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Rejecting it as entirely reprehensible seems about as extreme to me as generally rejecting the film because of her view on it.

 

Maybe - I'm happy enough to have my views called "extreme"! Moderation is overrated, and I wasn't criticising Alsop's comments for their extremeness...

 

All the same, I think the comparison is a poor one. There's nothing in Tár to suggest that the makers intend us to extrapolate Tár's negative traits (to women in general, or to lesbians, or to conductors), and I haven't seen Alsop argue otherwise; it's just an individual who happens to belong to those groups. As such, Alsop's castigation of the film for failing to use the opportunity to portray such a character in a positive light amounts to a prescriptive attitude to the purpose and function of films (or some of them), and that is what I find reprehensible.

[Marian Schedenig 8,235]

25 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

Yeah, but only because there's only one such film, so the word "every" isn't signifying much.

 

It seems to me that was at least partly her point though. If there were plenty of other films with such a setting, I imagine she wouldn't object to one of them vilifying its subject.

 

25 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

All the same, I think the comparison is a poor one. There's nothing in Tár to suggest that the makers intend us to extrapolate Tár's negative traits (to women in general, or to lesbians, or to conductors),

 

That's what I said myself, and why I don't think it's a valid reason to generally condemn the film. But like Tom managed to phrase more concisely than I did above, I think her POV can be understood.

 

25 minutes ago, Glóin the Dark said:

and I haven't seen Alsop argue otherwise; it's just an individual who happens to belong to those groups. As such, Alsop's castigation of the film for failing to use the opportunity to portray such a character in a positive light amounts to a prescriptive attitude to the purpose and function of films (or some of them), and that is what I find reprehensible.

 

It's a quote copied from Wikipedia, which likely took it from a longer source (and interview I would imagine). I don't expect it has the full context, and I would expect (but I obviously don't know) that if you were to talk to her about it, she would elaborate in more detail what specifically she objected to and what she (maybe/I imagine) didn't.

[Chen G. 3,983]

4 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I didn't see Tár (primarily) as a relatable tragic character. She's too close to real life examples of conductors who were horrible tyrants, even if (perhaps even because of that) they produced great artistic results.

 

I mean, in the opening portions of the film she's not terribly dislikable. She seems reasonably congenial. And then her hamartien (tragic flaws) start to surface, and ultimately become her undoing.

 

Seems like textbook tragedy to me.

[Edmilson 7,510]

1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

For what it’s worth, I enjoyed it for the most part even if Tar clearly knows fuck all about Jerry Goldsmith 😜

I haven't seen it. Does she mention Goldsmith? And it's under a negative light, right?

[Glóin the Dark 1,229]

1 minute ago, Marian Schedenig said:

It seems to me that was at least partly her point though. If there were plenty of other films with such a setting, I imagine she wouldn't object to one of them vilifying its subject.

 

I agree, and, conversely, if there were half a dozen film portrayals of female conductors, all of them predominantly negative, that would surely reflect some sort of worrying underlying prejudice. But when there's only one, it can't be expected to be representative, and shouldn't be required to be. It would be absurd to insist that, for every group X, a negative portrayal of a character included in X is only permissible once a sufficient number of positive ones already exist.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

That's what I said myself, and why I don't think it's a valid reason to generally condemn the film.

 

I know - I repeated it only by way of expressing what it is about Alsop's apparent attitude that I object to. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

It's a quote copied from Wikipedia, which likely took it from a longer source...

 

There's a bit more of it here. 

 

Quote

“All women and all feminists should be bothered by that kind of depiction because it’s not really about women conductors, is it? It’s about women as leaders in our society. People ask, ‘Can we trust them? Can they function in that role?’ It’s the same questions whether it’s about a CEO or an NBA coach or the head of a police department.”

 

Alsop added that there “are so many ... actual, documented men” Lydia Tár emulates with her problematic and cruel behavior, yet the awards-season darling “instead ... puts a woman in the role but gives her all the attributes of those men.”

 

“That feels anti-woman,” Alsop continued. “To assume that women will either behave identically to men or become hysterical, crazy, insane is to perpetuate something we’ve already seen on film so many times before.”

 

[Tom Guernsey 2,299]

3 hours ago, Edmilson said:

I haven't seen it. Does she mention Goldsmith? And it's under a negative light, right?

Yeah it’s something about Planet of the Apes being ripped off from Stravinsky which shows an astonishing lack of knowledge of Planet of the Apes and Stravinsky…

[Marian Schedenig 8,235]

2 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Yeah it’s something about Planet of the Apes being ripped off from Stravinsky which shows an astonishing lack of knowledge of Planet of the Apes and Stravinsky…

 

Varese. And since I don't know anything by Varese, I have no idea if her comment makes sense.

[Faleel 5,384]

32 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Varese. And since I don't know anything by Varese, I have no idea if her comment makes sense.

Well, Varese did release PotA on CD....

[crocodile 8,033]

13 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Yeah it’s something about Planet of the Apes being ripped off from Stravinsky which shows an astonishing lack of knowledge of Planet of the Apes and Stravinsky…

Actually it was about Varese saying something negative about Jews and then she finds it ironic/funny that Goldsmith rips him off for Planet of the Apes. Something like that.

 

But that quote, regardless of the "real" opinion of Goldsmith, has other context in the scene. Blanchett's character makes a point about associating composer's personality and/or opinions from their work in response to one student who didn't have any interest in Bach because he was a "straight white male". So it's more about (what people like to refer to as) "cancel culture" more than anything else.

 

Karol

[A24 4,357]

14 hours ago, Tom Guernsey said:

Yeah it’s something about Planet of the Apes being ripped off from Stravinsky which shows an astonishing lack of knowledge of Planet of the Apes and Stravinsky…

 

Yeah, I don't hear anything resembling Stravinsky in Goldsmith's POTA either. 

[Tom Guernsey 2,299]

12 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Varese. And since I don't know anything by Varese, I have no idea if her comment makes sense.

My bad for confusing my 20th century composers, although since Varese started a very popular record label with his friend Dave Sarabande, through which many Jerry Goldsmith scores have been released, I should clearly have known it wasn’t Stravinsky*.
 

I’m not massively familiar with Varese’s (fairly modest) output but I don’t recall it sounding anything like POTA. Then again one of his most famous works based largely based on the Rite of Spring. So in a way, I was almost right…

 

*may contain lies.

 

1 hour ago, A24 said:

 

Yeah, I don't hear anything resembling Stravinsky in Goldsmith's POTA either. 

The Omen on the other hand… 

[Marian Schedenig 8,235]

1 hour ago, Tom Guernsey said:

2 hours ago, A24 said:

Yeah, I don't hear anything resembling Stravinsky in Goldsmith's POTA either. 

The Omen on the other hand… 

 

"No, that's Orff!"

 

It isn't.

[A24 4,357]

Williams did a bit of Stravinky, but so did Vangelis with Spiral, where he perhaps unintentionally quoted him verbatim. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,235]

Where?

[A24 4,357]

8 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Where?

 

Spiral, the first track on Spiral.

 

 

Press play and it starts right where Vangelis is 'borrowing' from Stravinsky.

 

[Marian Schedenig 8,235]

I'm familiar with Spiral (I just played it again the other day), but probably not with the Stravinsky, because it doesn't remind me of anything. What is it?

[A24 4,357]

I only have it on CD-R and I forgot to write down the title of the CD. I might upload the track tomorrow so that you can hear it. 

[crocodile 8,033]

6 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

"No, that's Orff!"

 

It isn't.

It's funny how Stravinsky "contributed" additional material for three consecutive Academy Award-winning scores in 1975-1977. 😉

 

Karol

[bollemanneke 3,362]

The money pit. Happy I finished it. Hanks sounds almost unrecognisable, Long is fantastic, the sound mix and the music is great and the OST doesn't exist.

[filmmusic 1,847]

 

How on earth Paltrow won the Oscar over Blanchett's performance, I will never understand...

[JTN 2,113]

Had it been made 10-20 years earlier, Redford would’ve played Brad Pitt’s role and he would’ve played it much better. Nevertheless it’s a fine film about beautiful Montana and fly fishing. And some other stuff.

[Sweeping Strings 2,384]

Transporter 2 - the Stath unleashes his 'certain set of skills' on more Eurotrash baddies in another enjoyably silly actioner. Also starring Jason Flemyng and an arguably slumming it Matthew Modine. 

[JTN 2,113]

On 21/4/2024 at 8:00 AM, filmmusic said:

 

How on earth Paltrow won the Oscar over Blanchett's performance, I will never understand...

Me, neither. And she’s great in the sequel as well. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,135]

On 21/04/2024 at 8:00 AM, filmmusic said:

 

How on earth Paltrow won the Oscar over Blanchett's performance, I will never understand...

 

Weren't they nominated in two different categories?

[JTN 2,113]

46 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Weren't they nominated in two different categories?

ACTRESS IN A LEADING ROLE

 

WINNER

GWYNETH PALTROW

Shakespeare in Love

 

NOMINEES

CATE BLANCHETT

Elizabeth

 

FERNANDA MONTENEGRO

Central Station

 

MERYL STREEP

One True Thing

 

EMILY WATSON

Hilary and Jackie

[Jurassic Shark 12,135]

Well, Shakespeare in Love is a great movie.

[JTN 2,113]

It is, but imo Blanchett’s performance is much better than Paltrow’s. 

[GerateWohl 4,410]

Blanchett's performance is always good, unless it is somewhat supposed to be romantic.

The closest she got to a tangible romantic performance was in Heaven.

Great film by the way.

[JTN 2,113]

As a poet, and a hopelessly romantic man, films like this are very close to my heart. Not nearly perfect, but has some really nice moments. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,617]

I've not seen this, but I like Campion's previous work.

[A24 4,357]

Is that a new Campion?

[Glóin the Dark 1,229]

A fifteen year old one.

[A24 4,357]

Never seen it!

[Edmilson 7,510]

2 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

I've not seen this, but I like Campion's previous work.

Even that one where we have the "privilege" of seeing Harvey Keitel's dick?

[A24 4,357]

15 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Even that one where we have the "privilege" of seeing Harvey Keitel's dick?

 

Hey, that was my mom's favorite flick, together with Lawrence Of Arabia.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,617]

38 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Even that one where we have the "privilege" of seeing Harvey Keitel's dick?

 

You mean THE PIANO?

I have absolutely no interest in Keitel's dick, but I like the film.

[Edmilson 7,510]

1 minute ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

I have absolutely no interest in Keitel's dick, but I like the film.

Seems like a great movie (aside from Keitel's weiner). It's on my watchlist.

 

25 minutes ago, A24 said:

 

Hey, that was my mom's favorite flick, together with Lawrence Of Arabia.

Hopefully not because of "lil' Harvey" making a special guest appearance, right? 

[A24 4,357]

1 minute ago, Edmilson said:

Seems like a great movie (aside from Keitel's weiner). It's on my watchlist.

 

Hopefully not because of "lil' Harvey" making a special guest appearance, right? 

 

I never confronted her with that particular question, but who knows, maybe it was.

 

Say, is there a male nakedness in Lawrence? 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,617]

Just now, A24 said:

Say, is there a male nakedness in Lawrence? 

 

Only in the torture scene, with the Turkish Bey.

[A24 4,357]

Anyway, I think it was because of Omar Sharif.

 

[JTN 2,113]

It occured to me that Sharif’s character in Hidalgo is sort of the same character as in LoA. 

[filmmusic 1,847]

 

A sanitized Hollywood version of the story of Christ.

Spectacular, but I personally think it relied much on unwanted scenes like the two battles with Barabbas, the Roman centurion etc..

I think I prefer The Greatest Story ever told, and certainly Jesus of Nazareth.

And of course, above all, I love The Passion of Christ, for the depiction of Christ's last hours. I couldn't understand in the other versions the degree of his martyrdom.

[Jurassic Shark 12,135]

Blessed are the cheese makers!