Star Wars Disenchantment

[Brónach 1,302]

2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

"The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."

edit: let me rephrase. something called "the republic" doesn't have to be a democracy either.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,634]

2 minutes ago, Mattris said:

"The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."

 

Yeah, about that.

It took the Empire 20 years to wipe the Republic away? What the hell were they all doing?! Were they all on some huge fucking tea break?

[Chen G. 3,988]

Just now, Naïve Old Fart said:

It took the Empire 20 years to wipe the Republic away?

 

In the original film, its quite clear that the Empire took over much further back in the past than a meager twenty years.

[Brónach 1,302]

Is it too soon to make comparisons to something that happened in a technically (only technically) non-aligned state in the thirties? It them surprisingly long but then it was *over*. (except for a bunch of guys). my mind always drew the analogy.

[Jurassic Shark 12,147]

It was swept away off-screen.

[Mattris 416]

On 14/04/2023 at 11:53 AM, Brónach said:

edit: let me rephrase. something called "the republic" doesn't have to be a democracy either.

 

An "Old Republic" had been replaced by an evil empire. Democracy in the former galactic government was heavily implied since the state of the galaxy had changed so drastically, so much so that a "rebellion" had formed to fight back.

 

The film features a superweapon with the capability of destroying dissenting planets, one that had been built by an empire to cause fear for the purpose of exerting further control.

 

Democracy had been replaced by imperial rule.

 

The original film's world-building was quite clear.

 

On 14/04/2023 at 11:58 AM, Chen G. said:

In the original film, its quite clear that the Empire took over much further back in the past than a meager twenty years.

 

Your evidence/reasoning for this is...

[Tallguy 3,419]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

In the original film, its quite clear that the Empire took over much further back in the past than a meager twenty years.

 

No it isn't. It happened during Kenobi's life time and Luke's father was a Jedi. I might not like how it all washed out in the later films, but it's not that long ago.

 

Also, the Senate is still around.

 

It took them 20 years because they didn't want too many people to notice.

 

OTOH, if we compare it to the time of the film that would have been the late 40's. If we compare it to now it's the early oughts. "Tell me about the time of Seinfeld!" "Ohhh, that was so long ago."

[Chen G. 3,988]

1 minute ago, Tallguy said:

It happened during Kenobi's life time and Luke's father was a Jedi.

 

Kenobi is much older in that film than he was in the finished timeline, though: Guinness was in his sixties, and I believe different drafts describe the character as being between his sixties and his seventies. You have characters who would have been around twenty years prior talking about stuff like the Jedi as though it were the stuff of legend. It just all radiates the fact that the timeline was radically different at the time.

 

Yes, Luke was already imagined as 18-20 years old, but (1) its all in George Lucas head, it wasn't necessarily all thought completely through or (2) you could say Luke was born to his father while in exile.

[Mattris 416]

56 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

It just all radiates the fact that the timeline was radically different at the time.

 

You provided no facts or screenplay/novelization excerpts to support your interpretation.

 

Allow me to examine what reality the film "radiates":

 

Obi-Wan told Luke that he was "once a Jedi Knight" along with Luke's father, Anakin, who was "betrayed and murdered" by Darth Vader, who "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights" who were "the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic", the remnants of which still existed until during the events of the film.

 

This means that all of the above events occurred within 18-20 years before the events of the film. This is Luke's actual age, noted in the screenplay and novelization, which was release before the film. (I'll post excerpts later.)

 

It seems your entire case was built on assumption, with focus on Alec Guinness' actual age when the film was made. Granted, one could say he appears older than his actual age. But the world's timeline could have been deduced, regardless.

[Tallguy 3,419]

22 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Kenobi is much older in that film than he was in the finished timeline, though: Guinness was in his sixties, and I believe different drafts describe the character as being between his sixties and his seventies. You have characters who would have been around twenty years prior talking about stuff like the Jedi as though it were the stuff of legend. It just all radiates the fact that the timeline was radically different at the time.

 

Yes, Luke was already imagined as 18-20 years old, but (1) its all in George Lucas head, it wasn't necessarily all thought completely through or (2) you could say Luke was born to his father while in exile.

 

Oh no, I'm assuming 60 something Kenobi. None of this prequel nonsense.

 

Of course even then we can say the Republic was 40 years ago? At a stretch? Ahhh the legendary days of Michael Jackson's Thriller, now lost to the mists of legend. Hell, the movie we're talking about right now is older than that!

[Jurassic Shark 12,147]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Oh come on... grow a sense of humour! If I can have a hearty laugh at my own pedantry earlier down the thread, surely you can have a laugh at...whatever they call what you do.

 

Chen has met his superior.

[Chen G. 3,988]

12 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Of course even then we can say the Republic was 40 years ago?

 

That's what I would say: 30-40 years, rather than 18-20.

[Jurassic Shark 12,147]

Anybody else thinks Mattris should collect his Star Wars analyses in a book and get it published?

[Chen G. 3,988]

It would certainly be an amusing read.

[Mattris 416]

Using hundreds of literal excerpts from the films, screenplays, and official canon volumes, such a book would prove and spoil the biggest elements of Star Wars... surprises that have yet to be revealed.

 

My name would forever live in infamy.

[Jurassic Shark 12,147]

15 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Using hundreds of literal excerpts from the films, screenplays, and official canon volumes, such a book would prove and spoil the biggest elements of Star Wars... surprises that have yet to be revealed.

 

I hereby challenge you to do it. 

[Chen G. 3,988]

10 minutes ago, Mattris said:

My name would forever live in infamy.

 

O the irony!

[Mattris 416]

13 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

I hereby challenge you to do it. 

 

Due to the substantive/connective nature of my complete observations/findings, I have no doubt they would catch fire.

 

If my predictions/theories did turn out to be spot-on, I will have spoiled what was on-track to be such a memorable, surprising experience for so many people around the world.

 

I can't imagine Disney or Lucasfilm would approve of me to 'going public'.

[Jurassic Shark 12,147]

5 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

Due to the substantive/connective nature of my complete observations/findings, I have no doubt they would catch fire.

 

If my predictions/theories did turn out to be spot-on, I will have spoiled what was on-track to be such a memorable, surprising experience for so many people around the world.

 

I can't imagine Disney or Lucasfilm would approve of me to 'going public'.

 

Drop the predictions, just analyze the existing films.

[Mattris 416]

A thorough analysis yields a thorough explanation.

 

Based on observed set-ups and pay-offs that have already occurred in the story as shown in the films - and additional ones in the written material, including the expansive film novelizations - predicting subsequent pay-offs is the logical, almost-unavoidable, next step.

 

If I'm going to share my findings, my theories and predictions are coming too. I'll just go all the way. Otherwise, I see no point bothering.

[Jurassic Shark 12,147]

Go all the way then. If you stick to analysing texts that have been published, I doubt you need Disney's blessing. 

[Mattris 416]

If what I have discovered and deduced is truly intriguing... if not, convincing, I doubt those who read it would ever be able to disregard or forget it.

 

If it turns out to be a correct analysis - that I predicted what has happened... and what will happen as the story officially continues and concludes - would you regret having advised me to go all the way?

 

Although the masses would be impressed with my observational and theorizing abilities, I'm sure many people would not like that I shared so much spoiled it all.

[Jurassic Shark 12,147]

5 minutes ago, Mattris said:

If it turns out to be a correct analysis - that I predicted what has happened... and what will happen as the story officially continues and concludes - would you regret having advised me to go all the way?

 

Why would I?

 

5 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Although the masses would be impressed with my observational and theorizing abilities, I'm sure many people would not like that I shared so much spoiled it all.

 

Chen can choose not to read it.

[Chen G. 3,988]

49 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Chen can choose not to read it.

 

Or choose to read it with copious amounts of booze.

 

Copious amounts of booze works.

[Sweeping Strings 2,386]

17 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

Yeah, about that.

It took the Empire 20 years to wipe the Republic away? What the hell were they all doing?! Were they all on some huge fucking tea break?

A blue milk break, maybe. 

[GerateWohl 4,417]

On amazon there is a new BluRay Box for each Star Wars movie trilogy available. According to the description just the same content as in all the recent editions as well. Or even less. 

Why? 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,634]

6 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

Why? 

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

That's why.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,634]

Well said.

[1977 1,743]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

On amazon there is a new BluRay Box for each Star Wars movie trilogy available. According to the description just the same content as in all the recent editions as well. Or even less. 

Why? 

 

Do you have a link for those? I had a look and can't find any new BD trilogy boxes apart from the ones released a couple of the years ago when the 4K editions were released.

[GerateWohl 4,417]

1 hour ago, JTWfan77 said:

Do you have a link for those? I had a look and can't find any new BD trilogy boxes apart from the ones released a couple of the years ago when the 4K editions were released.

I am not sure, if those are exlusively for Germany.

On amazon.com I found this for the prequels:

Amazon.com: Star Wars Prequel Collection (Episodes 1-3) [Blu-ray] : Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman, Ian McDiarmid, Samuel L. Jackson, Frank Oz, Anthony Daniels, George Lucas: Filme & TV

 

Is that old?

 

The links from amazon.de:

Star Wars Trilogie Episode I - III: Amazon.de: McGregor, Ewan, Portman, Natalie, Lucas, George, McGregor, Ewan, Portman, Natalie: DVD & Blu-ray

Star Wars Trilogie Episode IV - VI: Amazon.de: Fisher, Carrie, Ford, Harrison, Hamill, Mark, Prowse, David, Fisher, Carrie, Ford, Harrison: DVD & Blu-ray

Star Wars Trilogie Episode VII - IX: Amazon.de: DVD & Blu-ray

[Tallguy 3,419]

It's the hope that kills you. But Iger has said he wants to pivot back to physical media.

 

OTOH if people get paid differently for the SE's than they do for the Originals... Then we will never see them.

[1977 1,743]

2 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I am not sure, if those are exlusively for Germany.

On amazon.com I found this for the prequels:

 

Is that old?

 

Yes, those have been around for a couple of years now.

[Brónach 1,302]

Leia should have never, ever, been Luke's sister.

[Andy 4,169]

I can agree with that.  
 

After living with accepting that for the past 40 years, I’ve learned to be more tolerant of popular media stories that don’t go exactly as I might prefer them to. 

[Chen G. 3,988]

2 hours ago, Brónach said:

Leia should have never, ever, been Luke's sister.

 

Hear hear!

 

Such a stupid "twist."

[Mattris 416]

16 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Why would I?

 

Do you think it's a good idea to potentially spoil Star Wars for the entire world?

 

I'm as serious as a heart attack.

[Jurassic Shark 12,147]

4 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

Do you think it's a good idea to potentially spoil Star Wars for the entire world?

 

I'm as serious as a heart attack.

 

People are free to choose whether to read it.

[Mattris 416]

In this connected world, we all know it doesn't work like that. Word would get around after the big channels/websites picked it up. To any Star Wars fan, the substantive contents of this post would be unavoidable.

 

The vast majority of it would be comprised of literal excerpts from Star Wars canon. The TL;DL summary would be a single paragraph.

[Brónach 1,302]

I don't understand why the spaceship chase in TLJ is considered "senseless", is there something i'm missing?

[Jurassic Shark 12,147]

19 hours ago, Brónach said:

Leia should have never, ever, been Luke's sister.

 

Yeah, she's old enough to be his mother. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,634]

That Leia is, somehow, connected to Vader, is hinted at, in the carbon freeze chamber.

Of course, Leia hears Luke, as the Falcon is making its escape from Cloud City, so the seeds were sown.

[Brónach 1,302]

"leia is sensitivge to the force" doesn't mean "they're siblings"

[Naïve Old Fart 9,634]

Of course not, but that was Lucas' choice, and who are we to argue?

[A. A. Ron 1,745]

3 hours ago, Brónach said:

I don't understand why the spaceship chase in TLJ is considered "senseless", is there something i'm missing?

 

That would be because it doesn't make sense.

 

1 hour ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Of course not, but that was Lucas' choice, and who are we to argue?

 

Uh, people with functioning brains?

[Brónach 1,302]

Maybe i don't remember the movie well. if they jump they get them, if they don't accelerate they get them, if they accelerate constantly they also burn their fuel but they'll get them later.

 

The tracking thing is an stretch, the jumps requiring way more fuel than normal i can buy. it being the same fuel is weird though? or are they different?

 

fantasy technology is funny, you can be like "this is intuitive" or "this isn't" sometimes

[A. A. Ron 1,745]

Yep. I've seen this chase described as more of "siege" that just happens to be moving. I've also seen it compared to the LAPD chasing OJ's white Bronco all the way to Chicago. Those are both hyperbolic summations of course, but movie chases do come with their own set of expectations. Perhaps Johnson was trying to subvert them. Either way, the chase lacks tension for me if people can just come and go from both the fleeing and pursuing ships whenever they want. Also, it never feels to me like the First Order is really all that determined to actually catch and destroy the Rebels. Everyone needs to act like they've got more of a fire under their ass.

 

At the end, when the First Order succeeds massively in that they have successfully killed all but like 50 of the Resistance fighters (and no longer have to worry about Luke Skywalker for that matter), we need to feel more of the loss as viewers. Rey and Leia simply jumping to hyperspace all happy and full of hope feels disingenuous given their current circumstances.

[Brónach 1,302]

12 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

but movie chases do come with their own set of expectations.

 

they aren't "subverting anything. i think they were thinking more on naval encounters and chases, not "movie chases on land". specifically, i think they may have been thinking on submarine movies, but i'm not sure. they may have been "going to the source", like the x-wings on the original movie.

 

coming and going would make sense for smaller craft since they can accelerate faster (ship mass is implied to be an issue, the First Order capital ship is stupid in this and probably any situation), and very easy to come backwards since the pursuers are accelerating after you they're coming after you anyways even if you stop engines.

 

the logical thing to do for the rebels would have been to do what they did ultimately, but almost inmediately, before they got surrounded by fighters. the only logic here is to try to save the big ship but that isn't happening.

 

can they angle the blaster weapons in space? that's odd.

[A. A. Ron 1,745]

26 minutes ago, Brónach said:

coming and going would make sense for smaller craft since they can accelerate faster (ship mass is implied to be an issue, the First Order capital ship is stupid in this and probably any situation), and very easy to come backwards since the pursuers are accelerating after you they're coming after you anyways even if you stop engines.

 

Well if we accept that possibility, then the First Order has no excuse not to attack with their fighters at every single stop. After the Mary Poppins scene, the movie insists that the Rebel ship is now out of fighter range and traveling faster than their pursuer, yet the distance between the ships never seems to grow.

 

Quote

can they angle the blaster weapons in space? that's odd.

 

Blasters probably can't arc at all. Other weapons might not be able to in deep space, but maybe when they're all close enough to a planet like at the beginning of the movie. Admittedly, that still might not work, but it's no stupider than the "the Holdo Maneuver" which also shouldn't work either, given the way Hyperspace had been portrayed prior to this movie.

[Brónach 1,302]

22 minutes ago, A. A. Ron said:

 

Well if we accept that possibility, then the First Order has no excuse not to attack with their fighters at every single stop. The movie insists that the Rebel ship is out of fighter range and traveling faster than their pursuer, yet the distance between the ships never seems to grow.

 

 

Blasters probably can't arc at all. Other weapons might not be able to in deep space, but maybe when they're all close enough to a planet like at the beginning of the movie. Admittedly, that still might not work, but it's no stupider than the "the Holdo Maneuver" which also shouldn't work either, given the way Hyperspace had been portrayed prior to this movie.

 

if the distance grows slowly it's difficult to portray without a background. also, yes, they should surround them with fighters. if you can hit something at near hyperspace speeds then the rebels should do it inmediately because i don't see what else they're supposed to do... also you could do it with an x-wing too.

 

(so finally, we hit the subtext of all of this: fighters don't make sense, and neither do the super weapons really lol)

[Holko 9,554]

They initially do attack them with fighters but TIEs are short range and the rebels get far enough that the main ship can't provide enough support.