Star Wars Disenchantment

[Brónach 1,302]

The Lord of the Rings is also escapism

[DarthDementous 1,059]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Clearly, it's not obvious that Star Wars was not made to be escapism to those unaware of George Lucas' stated intent... who perhaps have interpreted Star Wars as a action/adventure/sci-fi/fantasy spectacle.

 

These people are factually wrong. By definition, Star Wars is an allegory.

 

No wonder there are so many disenchanted 'fanatics'.

Whole lotta claims, whole lotta nothing to back them up even when prompted. Classic Mattris

[Chen G. 3,964]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 who perhaps have interpreted Star Wars as a action/adventure/sci-fi/fantasy spectacle.

 

I can see your attempt to get a bigger laugh out of us than with the quote in my signature. I applaud the effort, but I don't think it'll work.

[Mattris 416]

1 hour ago, DarthDementous said:

Whole lotta claims, whole lotta nothing to back them up even when prompted. Classic Mattris

 

Nothing? Scroll up. Apart from posting the definition of allegory - which I have, below - what have I claimed that I did not back up? 

 

 

From Wikipedia:

 

As a literary device or artistic form, an allegory is a narrative or visual representation in which a character, place, or event can be interpreted to represent a hidden meaning with moral or political significance. Authors have used allegory throughout history in all forms of art to illustrate or convey complex ideas and concepts in ways that are comprehensible or striking to its viewers, readers, or listeners.

 

 

Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper (right) and those that are improper (wrong). [1] Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion or culture, or it can derive from a standard that a person believes should be universal. [2] Morality may also be specifically synonymous with "goodness" or "rightness".

 

 

From Oxford Languages:

 

pol·i·tics

the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

 

 

 

George Lucas has gone on record countless times to confirm and elaborate on the moral and political themes conveyed throughout the Star Wars story as its very backbone. The work was created as an allegory - not escapism.

 

Why is it so difficult for you to admit that I'm right about this?

[Chen G. 3,964]

26 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Why is it so difficult for you to admit that I'm right about this?

 

"Because it goes against every fibre of the being of any rational person alive as water goes against fire" seems to sum it up.

[Brónach 1,302]

39 minutes ago, Mattris said:

George Lucas has gone on record countless times to confirm and elaborate on the moral and political themes conveyed throughout the Star Wars story as it very backbone. The work was created as an allegory - not escapism.

 

how would these things be contradictory?

[Mattris 416]

52 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

"Because it goes against every fibre of the being of any rational person alive as water goes against fire" seems to sum it up.

 

How exactly are you being rational about this?

 

40 minutes ago, Brónach said:

how would these things be contradictory?

 

With its plots and subtext focusing on morality and politics, I have shown that Star Wars was conceived as an allegory.

 

Although many of the Star Wars audience may (desire to) interpret the work as escapism and most enjoy its escapist elements (action, adventure, visual/aural spectacle, humor), these elements were not the reason  Star Wars was created, not its purpose.

[rough cut 1,714]

21 hours ago, Mattris said:

As Sir Alec Guinness said, "I hear now people disparaging the work, and I say, no no. It's been done with great care and imagination. There's more to it than you think."

Actually, Alec Guinness said very clearly that he didn’t think Star Wars was any more than a fun, simple story, and that people would probably be inclined to read too much into it.

 

The actual quote is: 

 

Quote

“People are going to read too much into it, it’s simple, simple stuff for all ages.”

 

And it can be found here, at around 4:12

 

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxBeDTda4zS2QKFo8TlKRo6gT21JTCLfIH

[Mattris 416]

Excluding young children, I agree, Star Wars is for all ages.

 

I never said it was complicated.

 

I'm not reading too much into the work - just the right amount to understand it properly... unlike the vast majority of the audience, who have read far too little  into it.

[Chen G. 3,964]

11 minutes ago, rough cut said:

Actually, Alec Guinness said very clearly that he didn’t think Star Wars was any more than a fun, simple story, and that people would probably be inclined to read too much into it.

 

That was what the rhetoric around Star Wars - from Lucas or anybody - was all throughout the making of it, its release and throughout its theatrical run: Lucas only started talking about it as some sort of work of mythology and folklorism circa March 1980, when he was being interviewed ahead of the premeire of The Empire Strikes Back.

 

I'll dig up some quotes later.

[Brónach 1,302]

7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

That was what the rhetoric around Star Wars - from Lucas or anybody - was all throughout the making of it, its release and throughout its theatrical run: Lucas only started talking about it as some sort of work of mythology and folklorism circa March 1980, when he was being interviewed ahead of the premeire of The Empire Strikes Back.

 

I'll dig up some quotes later.

 

there's a quote of Guinness before the movie where he describes it as "a fairytale, which gives me pause". although fairytale technically can be those two things i suppose.

[Chen G. 3,964]

Its definitely a fairytale. Many of Lucas' antecedent sources - Flash Gordon and A Princess of Mars, most notably, but in a sense also Kurosawa's A Hidden Fortress - had the trappings of a fairytale. I don't think Lucas was thinking about it rigorously as a fairytale until he read a column about fairytales by Bruno Bettelheim in a December 1976 issue of The New Yorker.

 

But there's a difference between a fairytale and a myth.

[Brónach 1,302]

A myth is or was believed to be real (and probably more things to it, like how it relates to the order of society or the world maybe, i don't know).

 

23 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Excluding young children, I agree, Star Wars is for all ages.

 

I liked it the most as a young child!

[Mattris 416]

  

53 minutes ago, Brónach said:

I liked it the most as a young child!

 

Great! But I would say that children under 10 are not the target audience for Star Wars. George Lucas said that it was made for 12-year-olds.

[Tallguy 3,405]

Don't we already have a thread for this?

[Mattris 416]

7 hours ago, Brónach said:

A myth is or was believed to be real (and probably more things to it, like how it relates to the order of society or the world maybe, i don't know).

 

Labeling Star Wars as a myth should not be done lightly.

 

Though, calling it a "modern fairy tale" makes it sound very accessible... as George Lucas did when he honored Joseph Campbell.

 

The probable explanation for the film makers not labelling Star Wars as 'allegory' or 'political/moral commentary' is that they wanted the films to garner mass-appeal, without turning people away for being high-brow or directed at audiences too seriously.

 

Alec Guinness' payment for films was earned from royalties. He was quite public about it, thankful for the comfort it afforded him later in life. (more appeal = more money)

 

The contents of the films and official canon speaks for itself, especially in context with each other, in totality, and in chronological order.

 

The more discerning one is with Star Wars, the more one gets out of it... to the extent it was intended, of course.

 

If it truly is a story worthy of such attention and remembrance, then reading into it to a certain degree is absolutely required  to truly understand it... that is, before the end.

[Bilbo 3,709]

21 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I don't for one second believe Lucas already read through any of Joseph Campbell's inane, rambling, pseudo-Jungian tomes.

I see Star Wars fans mentioning Campbell all the time and it’s clear that none of them have tried to read his works. They’re a massive slog and not these storytelling bibles that Twitter fans make them out to be.

[Brónach 1,302]

they're unbearable and unnecesary

[Chen G. 3,964]

And all testament regarding Lucas' erudition is that such dense tomes are well beyond him.

[Mattris 416]

What a pompous claim, @Chen G.. Let's inspect your erudition.

 

- What makes you certain that Campbell's works are "well beyond" George Lucas' comprehension?

 

- Do you think you're smarter or wiser than George Lucas regarding philosophy, anthropology, mythology, or storytelling?

 

- Regarding Star Wars, what insight do you possess?

- What have you garnered from its story?

- What are its central narrative and themes?

- Have you read any of the Star Wars film novelizations, novels, or other canon works?

 

Could it be that you think so little of George Lucas and the talent at Lucasfilm because you are ignorant of reality and don't understand Star Wars on a fundamental level? Can you fathom that?

 

Put that in your signature.

[Chen G. 3,964]

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

- What makes you certain that Campbell's works are "well beyond" George Lucas' comprehension?

 

Not my argument:

 

Quote

The second argument is that Lucas never amounted to much of a student. In fact Dale Pollock, Lucas’s only official biographer, pointed out several times that Lucas had loved comic books, cartoons and serials when growing up, that he hated reading and even as a film maker never took much of an interest in narratives until he started work on Star Wars, preferring to work visually, as he did on his student films and THX 1138, or in a more episodic and character-based manner as he had on American Graffiti.

 

Looking at Lucas’s many other influences on Star Wars, they are all, as one would expect, films (most from the mid and late 60s), comic books and the occasional science fiction novel, most of which were aimed at the adolescent market. Lucas was many things, but a bookworm wasn’t one of them, which makes it hard to swallow that despite having a definite interest in anthropology and even mythology—which undoubtedly made him aware of Campbell’s work on some level—that Lucas plowed through Campbell’s 400 page tightly packed academic tome, let alone gleaned from it the formula for binding together the disparate elements of Star Wars.

 

Take it up with Heilemann.

[Mattris 416]

No, you made the argument, @Chen G.. While I read what you linked, you can prove your Star Wars credibility - or lack thereof - by answering my other questions.

 

 

Edit: The author offered no insight on the actual work of Star Wars, particularly the screenplays and novelizations, in context. Without analyzing the literal words of Lucas' story, he resorted to name-dropping and generalization, just like you. Useless.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,577]

Don't, @Chen G.

Just...just don't. Please don't.

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

5 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Don't we already have a thread for this?

 

Starting to feel a little disenchanted?

[DarthDementous 1,059]

8 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

The probable explanation for the film makers not labelling Star Wars as 'allegory' or 'political/moral commentary' is that they wanted the films to garner mass-appeal, without turning people away for being high-brow or directed at audiences too seriously.

This is backwards thinking. You’ve already reached the conclusion that Star Wars is intended to be allegory and not escapism, and you’re working backwards from that to try and justify why the filmmakers haven’t said as much. Even though the much simpler answer is that Lucas and co did not consider the films allegory, hence why they did not represent it as such

 

Not sure if I buy into the characterisation of George Lucas downplaying the more thoughtful aspects of his films to have more mass-appeal, he seems far too stubborn and rebellious (especially at that time in his career) for that

[Chen G. 3,964]

5 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Don't, @Chen G.

Just...just don't. Please don't.

 

Don't look at me. Its between him and Michael Heilemann.

[Nick1Ø66 4,730]

.

[Mattris 416]

5 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

This is backwards thinking. You’ve already reached the conclusion that Star Wars is intended to be allegory and not escapism, and you’re working backwards from that to try and justify why the filmmakers haven’t said as much. Even though the much simpler answer is that Lucas and co did not consider the films allegory, hence why they did not represent it as such

 

Not sure if I buy into the characterisation of George Lucas downplaying the more thoughtful aspects of his films to have more mass-appeal, he seems far too stubborn and rebellious (especially at that time in his career) for that

 

Yes, I reached the conclusion that Star Wars was intended to be allegory because, by definition, it is an allegory.  Surely you don't think George Lucas created a sprawling multi-trilogy allegory by accident. You don't, do you?

 

Right, Lucas is not like other storytellers. His stubborn and rebellious nature would explain why he played his cards so... uniquely.  Once his audience took the bait - having concluded what Star Wars was (escapism) - he could alter his tune enough to keep the masses from grasping his real plans. It worked perfectly.

 

As a puzzle/problem-solver, I discovered that reverse engineering the Star Wars story was key to making sense of it.

 

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Don't look at me. Its between him and Michael Heilemann.

 

No, you made the argument... then posted a link to an article written by someone you agree with.

 

But here, it's just you and me. And not for the first time, ignoring my pointed Star Wars questions - after badgering me - is not a good look.

[Schilkeman 967]

3 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

They hate and love Lucas, as they hate and love themselves.

[Tallguy 3,405]

8 hours ago, Mattris said:

Surely you don't think George Lucas created a sprawling multi-trilogy allegory by accident. You don't, do you?

 

Oh hell yes.

[Mattris 416]

Morality and politics were always central to the Star Wars story and themes. By definition, that means it was an allegory from the beginning. It never changed. Only the audience's perspective changed.

 

Do you think Lucas learned what an allegory is before he wrote/directed subsequent films? Or do you think he's still not aware?

 

Regardless, the time is coming when Lucasfilm will finally show their audience the error of their ways. George Lucas will finally receive the credit he deserves, along with John Williams and many others.

 

At least you admit Star Wars is an allegory, @Tallguy. It's like pulling teeth around here!

[Tallguy 3,405]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

At least you admit Star Wars is an allegory, @Tallguy. It's like pulling teeth around here!

 

No, I said I think "George Lucas created a sprawling multi-trilogy allegory by accident".

 

He vaguely grafted Watergate onto his story of the Empire. The Wookies were going to be the Viet Cong. That's... about it.

[Sweeping Strings 2,370]

Darth Nixon, lol. 

[Tallguy 3,405]

Just now, Sweeping Strings said:

Darth Nixon, lol. 

 

Well, this was when the Emperor was merely a puppet for the ACTUAL dark forces (such as Governor Tarkin). Before the Emperor became Darth Vader's force wielding mentor. When a pupil NAMED Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Luke Skywalker's father. Alllll part of the plan.

[Gabriel Bezerra 307]

So the whole discussion here is if Star Wars is escapism or allegory?

[Tallguy 3,405]

50 minutes ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

So the whole discussion here is if Star Wars is escapism or allegory?

 

An allegory for WHAT?

[Edmilson 7,490]

33 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

An allegory for WHAT?

Isn't the OT a Vietnam allegory and the PT a Bush/War on Terror allegory?

[Mattris 416]

2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

No, I said I think "George Lucas created a sprawling multi-trilogy allegory by accident".

 

Right, and in doing so, you admitted that you think Star Wars is an allegory.

 

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

An allegory for WHAT?

 

It's an allegory - period. Copy-pasted from the previous page:

 

 

From Wikipedia:

 

As a literary device or artistic form, an allegory is a narrative or visual representation in which a character, place, or event can be interpreted to represent a hidden meaning with moral or political significance. Authors have used allegory throughout history in all forms of art to illustrate or convey complex ideas and concepts in ways that are comprehensible or striking to its viewers, readers, or listeners.

 

 

Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper (right) and those that are improper (wrong). [1] Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion or culture, or it can derive from a standard that a person believes should be universal. [2] Morality may also be specifically synonymous with "goodness" or "rightness".

 

 

From Oxford Languages:

 

pol·i·tics

the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

 

 

1 hour ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

So the whole discussion here is if Star Wars is escapism or allegory?

 

Progress. But you still misunderstand my point, which was that George Lucas did not create  Star Wars to be escapism.

 

Its audience, in general, just latched on to its escapist elements (action, adventure, visual/aural spectacle, humor) in the original film and may have interpreted the work - holistically - as escapism. But escapism was not the reason  Star Wars was created, not its purpose.

 

George Lucas has confirmed time and again that he made Star Wars 'to instill life lessons for 12-year-olds' and to illustrate "how a democracy can become a dictatorship". With its plots and subtext focusing on morality and politics, Star Wars was conceived as an allegory.

 

Those who make this critical distinction will have taken their first steps into a larger world.

[Brónach 1,302]

22 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

and to illustrate "how a democracy can become a dictatorship".

 

but this was not in the movie!

[Mattris 416]

Governor Tarkin:  The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away.

 

General Tagge:  But that's impossible. How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?

 

Governor Tarkin:  The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.

[Brónach 1,302]

oh damn now i can't reply to you because of the forum rules! i'm going away, handcuffed.

[Jay 37,414]

The politics of Star Wars are fine to discuss

[Chen G. 3,964]

14 hours ago, Mattris said:

But here, it's just you and me. And not for the first time, ignoring my pointed Star Wars questions - after badgering me - is not a good look.

 

Oh come on... grow a sense of humour! If I can have a hearty laugh at my own pedantry earlier down the thread, surely you can have a laugh at...whatever they call what you do.

[Tallguy 3,405]

Yes Star Wars was as much about the dissolution of the Senate as Return of the Jedi was about the Bothans.

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Right, and in doing so, you admitted that you think Star Wars is an allegory.

 

Apologies. I was concentrating on the multi-trilogy part.

 

Allegories have to be about something. The political backdrop of Star Wars is not what it's about anymore than Flash Gordon is about Ming the Merciless' rise to power.

[Mattris 416]

  

11 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Oh come on... grow a sense of humour! If I can have a hearty laugh at my own pedantry earlier down the thread, surely you can have a laugh at...whatever it is you do.

 

Oh, I do have a sense of humor. But what I'm here for is certainly not "pedantry". Over the last 4+ years on this forum, I've been redefining Star Wars and been proven right time and again when almost everyone doubted and made fun of me.

 

What have you done?

 

If you won't answer my latest round of pointed Star Wars questions, I will safely assume your would-be answers are... unflattering.

 

Those in the know 

[Jurassic Shark 12,105]

That you, Kathleen?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,577]

Is that you, Mo-Dean?

[Brónach 1,302]

7 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Yes Star Wars was as much about the dissolution of the Senate as Return of the Jedi was about the Bothans.

 

plus the existence of anything called "the senate" doesn't equal democracy.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,577]

The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern, to us.

[Mattris 416]

7 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Yes Star Wars was as much about the dissolution of the Senate as Return of the Jedi was about the Bothans.

 

That exchange painted a backdrop for the politics concerning the rule of the galaxy.

 

7 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Allegories have to be about something. The political backdrop of Star Wars is not what it's about anymore than Flash Gordon is about Ming the Merciless' rise to power.

 

Star Wars isn't only about morality and politics. That's just its focus. Note that, by definition, "politics" is not limited to government-related things.

 

1 minute ago, Brónach said:

plus the existence of anything called "the senate" doesn't equal democracy.

 

"The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."