Joe Kraemer: “I haven’t scored a single mainstream Hollywood movie since ‘Rogue Nation’”

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

We need to take back the silent films.

[GerateWohl 4,369]

As I recently watched "Superman - The Movie" I was surpised how the opening march was covered by the terribly loud noise of the letters gliding through space.

There I understood, why Jerry Goldsmith put these synth farts into his Supgergirl main title.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

5 hours ago, publicist said:

 

You cite several things that are neither (that) new, nor really an explanation for the loss of significance of music composed for films.

Can you clarify what you mean by significance? If it’s referring to the quality, craft or aesthetic impact of the music, that is purely subjective opinion. Cultural significance? Hans Zimmer, as we speak,  is touring the world with his music in concert, and has reached a level of popularity only rivalled by Williams. The status of film composers has never been higher in the public consciousness, they’re literal rockstars now. If you mean significance in terms the presence or role of music within the construction of a film, I addressed that in the evolution of sound design (and would go further to include CGI). John Williams once made us believe a man could fly, but these days anyone with a laptop and After Effects can rustle together something convincing.

 

5 hours ago, publicist said:

The term 'content' is now routinely used for all kinds of media, and it describes a downgrade of sorts in the sense that we have become used to everything kinda looking and sounding the same. 

Aesthetic trends come and go in media and always have, but the homogeny of contemporary entertainment is as much as product of studio profiteering than anything. Familiar sells, and in times of economic uncertainty no studio wants to risk innovation eating into profits.

 

5 hours ago, publicist said:

Of course there still would be countless films that would profit from 'traditional' scores (doesn't mean they must all sound like 'War Horse'). That they aren't written or even requested is mostly due to a generational change (the 'Stranger Things' phenomenon, whole lines of product are just based on slavishly recreated deja vú's - or the director's Spotify playlist) and the simple fact that the industry doesn't push for excellence beyond purely technical categories - certainly not for the musical artform.

Again this is a question of subjective taste. The musical artform encompasses far more than the European art music traditions that were popularised in films scores last century, and includes systems of tonality, instrumentation and compositional techniques from cultures all over the globe, including modern digital techniques and popular songwriting conventions. Just because you can’t recognise the skill and craft on display in modern scores doesn’t mean it isn’t there. There are some seriously talented people making music for film these days. It just doesn’t sound like what many people here recognise as “good” music.

 

I’ll admit that I don’t actively listen to a lot of modern film music these days because I don’t connect to it in an emotional aesthetic sense, but that doesn’t mean I don’t still recognise the incredible skill and craft that goes in to making them. Sure, we get our cookie-cutter and derivative scores, but that’s been happening ever since cultures elevated music into an artform. There were countless soulless copycats of Mozart but we don’t hear about them now. History will sort the Balfes from the Greenwoods and Desplats, but more importantly it will highlight the truly new and innovative sounds being made now, even if we don’t have the shared understanding of what makes them great. 

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, Docteur Qui said:

Can you clarify what you mean by significance? If it’s referring to the quality, craft or aesthetic impact of the music, that is purely subjective opinion. Cultural significance? Hans Zimmer, as we speak,  is touring the world with his music in concert, and has reached a level of popularity only rivalled by Williams. The status of film composers has never been higher in the public consciousness, they’re literal rockstars now. If you mean significance in terms the presence or role of music within the construction of a film, I addressed that in the evolution of sound design (and would go further to include CGI). John Williams once made us believe a man could fly, but these days anyone with a laptop and After Effects can rustle together something convincing.

 

 

What i mean is exactly that: MUSIC with a capital M, that's written and conceived as real music, not just a wallpapery thing that wafts away in the background at the mercy of a hundred sound effects. I'm aware of all what you're talking about, but it sounds too apologetic to me, like an industry professional trying to sell me something that is of no particular use for a music fan.

 

Quote

Aesthetic trends come and go in media and always have, but the homogeny of contemporary entertainment is as much as product of studio profiteering than anything. Familiar sells, and in times of economic uncertainty no studio wants to risk innovation eating into profits.

 

Sounds like back in the 90's and early 2000's, when Ford Thaxton found an excuse for nearly everything with a non-sequitur like 'this will bring in the big monies, just accept it'. But why should i?

 

Quote

Again this is a question of subjective taste. The musical artform encompasses far more than the European art music traditions that were popularised in films scores last century, and includes systems of tonality, instrumentation and compositional techniques from cultures all over the globe, including modern digital techniques and popular songwriting conventions. Just because you can’t recognise the skill and craft on display in modern scores doesn’t mean it isn’t there. There are some seriously talented people making music for film these days. It just doesn’t sound like what many people here recognise as “good” music.

 

Again, i don't really see what you are advocating here: that you are a big fan of sound gadgets and expensive gear? My argument is and always have been that i listen to something released separately from the movie, so i'm rating its musical qualities. That's all there is to it.

 

I can talk about all this stuff, and it is known and debated for years, but do i gain better music from it?

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Better music according to what metric? Melody, harmony, orchestration, rhythm, originality, innovation? It's fine to have preferences but you've yet to convince me how film music today is any less valuable in an artistic sense beyond personal preference. And even if you can articulate those things, just because modern scores don't resemble your reference points for good music doesn't mean it's not well-constructed, thoughtful, informed and expressive. You're essentially complaining that music that was designed for a specific purpose isn't catering to your express desires as a listener, which was and will never be the main function of film scores.

 

Take Williams' concert output for example. I don't really enjoy listening to those pieces because I don't have the analytical skills or frankly the patience to truly engage with what he's trying to achieve. But I know enough about music to recognise the skill on display, and so I can determine that the music still has value. It certainly does to him and many others here.

[Mephariel 451]

7 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

Better music according to what metric? Melody, harmony, orchestration, rhythm, originality, innovation? It's fine to have preferences but you've yet to convince me how film music today is any less valuable in an artistic sense beyond personal preference. And even if you can articulate those things, just because modern scores don't resemble your reference points for good music doesn't mean it's not well-constructed, thoughtful, informed and expressive. You're essentially complaining that music that was designed for a specific purpose isn't catering to your express desires as a listener, which was and will never be the main function of film scores.

 

Take Williams' concert output for example. I don't really enjoy listening to those pieces because I don't have the analytical skills or frankly the patience to truly engage with what he's trying to achieve. But I know enough about music to recognise the skill on display, and so I can determine that the music still has value. It certainly does to him and many others here.

 

Yes, largely correct. Film music today are created to fit the films today and modern sensibilities of the directors. Film music 50 years ago were created for the the movies of that time period. 

[Anthony 572]

Surely lots of rubbish music was written back in those days as well. But because it was rubbish, it's been forgotten about; as rubbish that's written these days eventually will be too.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

But sadly many people today think the lush orchestral sound is the rubbish....

[Richard Penna 3,690]

Only a few directors/studios with questionable tastes probably think that.

 

I watched a few scenes of Jungle Cruise last night and was reminded of how old-fashioned and not even remotely RCP JNH's score is. That's a major blockbuster with exactly the type of score that many want (or indeed, seem to demand).

 

Interesting use of 'acceptable' earlier in the thread... it seems increasingly that, like with people having specific requirements for album structure, there is also a demand that sufficient scores should also be in the traditional orchestral sense, and that if a director/producer has gone down a more experimentative approach, they've somehow betrayed the film music community and denied them another 'epic masterpiece'.

 

There's loads of orchestral music being written - as Thor says, it's just not always for the big movies.

[Edmilson 7,456]

6 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

There's loads of orchestral music being written - as Thor says, it's just not always for the big movies.

Indeed. Outside Hollywood, there's a lot of great music in movies/TV shows from Japan, China, Spain, France, etc. 

 

Jon Broxton has made some posts about them in his website:

 

https://moviemusicuk.us/2022/04/05/under-the-radar-round-up-2022-part-1/

 

https://moviemusicuk.us/2022/01/07/under-the-radar-round-up-2021-part-4b/

 

https://moviemusicuk.us/2022/01/18/under-the-radar-round-up-2021-part-4c/

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

Those Jon Broxton "Under the Rader" pieces every year are the #1 most important thing he does at MMUK, in my opinion. Great work.

 

Yavar

[JNHFan2000 2,963]

The Under-The-Rader articles are the posts that let me explore so much more than just the big Hollywood/Mainstream scores.

I got some real gems out of it. Very happy he keeps doing them, and more regularly

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

22 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

There's loads of orchestral music being written - as Thor says, it's just not always for the big movies.

 

Fixed.

[Alex 2,835]

Came across this on Twitter/X:

 

 

https://x.com/pureevilbich/status/1750168797065941049?s=46&t=qD_26VYTJS4cdEm47c4eUg

 

Apparently McQuarrie told this story on a podcast (not sure if this was recently or when they were promoting Rogue Nation).

EDIT: Not sure how to embed the tweet, so I’ve attached the picture from the original post.

 

[Jay 37,364]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Not sure how to embed the tweet

 

Just have to paste it in with twitter.com instead of x.com in the URL

 

 

[Alex 2,835]

Thanks, Jay.

[crocodile 8,013]

He did actually talk about some of thar on the director's commentary track on Blu-ray. Not sure if it was exactly the same anecdote though.

 

Karol

[Richard Penna 3,690]

So test screenings with Balfe's music must be fucking amazing if Kraemer's music had that much of an impact.

 

Which says something very wrong with modern audiences.

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

Was unaware of this thread's existance. I caught this tweet the other day too and was reminded of the Kraemer situation, was finally able to read his original tweets through here (and all the chaos that it ensue in 6 pages). Went to look what he's been up to... and apparently he has only worked on two (minor) projects last year.

[Stark 316]

I think he’s been scoring a lot of audio dramas lately instead of films.

[Richard Penna 3,690]

He's also done three albums for the Audio Network library: https://www.audionetwork.com/track/searchkeyword?keyword=Joe Kraemer - the last one being in 2020 so he's not exactly on fire there.

 

I heard one of them during a Prime show a few weeks ago actually (via a recognition app).