Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (Score in the film) - SPOILERS ALLOWED!

[Jay 37,374]

It's a great cue!

 

 

I really wish he had included it on the OST album, or if he didn't, that it could have been on the FYC album.

[Edmilson 7,473]

It seems that Williams is getting more and more restrictive with his OSTs. Firstly, The Fabelmans' OST album doesn't include this cue that would've shown that the score has a bigger diversity of sounds.

 

Then, Indy 5's album includes Helena's Theme twice, but not essential, climatic cues.

 

And to make everything worse, there isn't a single second of unreleased music in either FYC.

 

Sigh...

[Damien F 1,742]

I was watching a few scenes featuring unreleased cues. That moment when Indy is shot in the cave and he barks "Go!" to Helena and Teddy waiting in a passageway, all I could think of is "Fly you fools!".

[Bellosh 3,419]

One thing i love about the score and film, is that John William's opening percussion in the Battle of Syracuse is the surprise, BEFORE the surprise.

 

That ancient sorta tribal beat is John Williams front and center for arguably the best part of the film and I think, personally, one of the best twists in all of the Indy films.

 

His music got to be the twist for a couple seconds, and I love that.

[Not Mr. Big 4,640]

51 minutes ago, Jay said:

It's a great cue!

 

 

I really wish he had included it on the OST album, or if he didn't, that it could have been on the FYC album.

Didn't realize the first part was Williams.  I hear traces of the Fabelmans theme in there (from the very end of the theme)

[Jay 37,374]

If the guitar part is not Williams, it goes uncredited in the film and GEMA cue list.

[Not Mr. Big 4,640]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

If the guitar part is not Williams, it goes uncredited in the film and GEMA cue list.

It has the repeating figure from 1:40 of the main theme.  Just specific enough for it to feel intentional 

[Damien F 1,742]

32 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

One thing i love about the score and film, is that John William's opening percussion in the Battle of Syracuse is the surprise, BEFORE the surprise.

 

That ancient sorta tribal beat is John Williams front and center for arguably the best part of the film and I think, personally, one of the best twists in all of the Indy films.

 

His music got to be the twist for a couple seconds, and I love that.

 

The twist was kinda spoiled by Indy figuring out the continental drift before they entered the portal. I think it would have been so much more impactful if the score and the sight of the roman galleys were the very first indication that they had traveled too far back in time, and only then does Indy think of continental draft as the explanation. Indy explaining it before the twist already made the audience expect a twist.

[Bellosh 3,419]

4 minutes ago, Damien F said:

 

The twist was kinda spoiled by Indy figuring out the continental drift before they entered the portal. I think it would have been so much more impactful if the score and the sight of the roman galleys were the very first indication that they had traveled too far back in time, and only then does Indy think of continental draft as the explanation. Indy explaining it before the twist already made the audience expect a twist.

 

yes you're right actually, thats def the twist before the twist....

 

buuuuut.....you still can barely tell what the ships are in the sea until Indy says triremes.  there is that split second where you literally don't where you are, and almost assume its 1939 based on Voller's reaction.

 

but you're right.  Ford's line about the calculations being wrong is the "oh shit moment" the film desperately needed!  and expertly delivered.  I swear Ford had his most 'acting' fun in DoD.

[LB Makes Stuff 240]

5 hours ago, Bellosh said:

to each their own!

 

you know what it is for me? as a fan of the film....i wish JW didn't do that!

 

I feel like, personally, it lowers the quality of the film to re-hash so many bits. which feels harsh to type....but the irony is the rest of JW's music in the film is so good that it raises the level of the film. 

 

Maybe the On the Tank reference is fine, cause one could argue that is something like Indy's version of tie fighter music (bad example --- but you get it)

 

I think the film could have 'felt' stronger to me without dipping into so many older cues.  I can't and won't blame JW, due to his age obviously.  It's just a small nitpick I have with the film.

I get that, new music is usually the better choice over old stuff in most cases for sure. But I do appreciate the obvious love Mangold has for War of the Worlds score considering he uses it as obvious temp music 3 times.

[Jay 37,374]

On 01/09/2023 at 8:47 AM, CGCJ said:

02:08-02:20 of Germany, 1944 is used at 08:40 when Indy climbs onto the train.

 

Thanks for this tip.  I've now cleaned up the make-up of OST track 3 in the doc, this thread, and the other 2 threads that had the album breakdown posted.  Thanks again!

[Cameron1138 34]

27 minutes ago, Damien F said:

 

The twist was kinda spoiled by Indy figuring out the continental drift before they entered the portal. I think it would have been so much more impactful if the score and the sight of the roman galleys were the very first indication that they had traveled too far back in time, and only then does Indy think of continental draft as the explanation. Indy explaining it before the twist already made the audience expect a twist.

I don't know, Voller's initial triumphant reaction after they first got through the portal and the really quick shot of the ships where I couldn't tell what they were had me thinking for a couple seconds that Indy was wrong and the really had gone back to 1939. This way we got two of those great 'oh fuck' reactions from Voller instead of just one like most Indy villains get so I'm not complaining lol.

[Damien F 1,742]

I just watched the Battle of Syracuse scene. There is exactly 5 minutes (give or take a few seconds) between the music at the start of the Battle track and the music at the end of the track. There is about 30 seconds of those 5 minutes with no score. The track is 2:50 on the album so that leaves about 1 minutes 40 seconds that has been microedited out including a statement of Indy's theme.

[Jay 37,374]

I dunno what you mean about 30 seconds with no score.  The score is continuous from 2:06:48-2:12:01 in the rear channels

 

Nevermind, I was wrong!

[Bellosh 3,419]

2:06:48 BC! YOU GOT THE WRONG SCORE!

[Damien F 1,742]

17 minutes ago, Jay said:

I dunno what you mean about 30 seconds with no score.  The score is continuous from 2:06:48-2:12:01 in the rear channels

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gLWlWGQDU2sjQtm83qAu9pgDTlEMSH7smeWw5zZwqHs

 

I'm referring to the section that begins when Helena makes her entrance on the plane in Syracuse and says ''Guttentag" to the soldiers and drops them out of the place. I don't hear score unless it is mixed low. However, I didn't listen specifically to the rear channels so perhaps it can be heard there??

[Bellosh 3,419]

Nah you're right there's no music until Indy realizes Helena is on the plane

[Jay 37,374]

I just double-checked and yup, it's a mistake in my doc - fixed now!

The music plays from 2:06:48-2:09:46, and then 2:10:14-2:12:00, indeed!

 

So that means there's only 1:55:20 of score in the final film.

 

Thanks for the correction!

[Bayesian 1,364]

6 hours ago, Bellosh said:

to each their own!

 

you know what it is for me? as a fan of the film....i wish JW didn't do that!

 

I feel like, personally, it lowers the quality of the film to re-hash so many bits. which feels harsh to type....but the irony is the rest of JW's music in the film is so good that it raises the level of the film. 

 

Maybe the On the Tank reference is fine, cause one could argue that is something like Indy's version of tie fighter music (bad example --- but you get it)

 

I think the film could have 'felt' stronger to me without dipping into so many older cues.  I can't and won't blame JW, due to his age obviously.  It's just a small nitpick I have with the film.

Hmm, see, it sounds like you ARE blaming JW. Moreover, you said JW's contribution to a movie lowered the quality of said movie.

 

There... there just are no words for such words. Under the immutable and ineradicable laws of the universe, JW's music only INCREASES the quality of everything it graces, always and forever. That means, by definition, his reuse of material is a stroke of genius the rest of us might come around to recognizing as such years from now, if we're lucky.

 

Ok, we're good. I'm glad I was able to sort that out for us.

 

[Bellosh 3,419]

37 minutes ago, Bayesian said:

Hmm, see, it sounds like you ARE blaming JW. Moreover, you said JW's contribution to a movie lowered the quality of said movie.

 

There... there just are no words for such words. Under the immutable and ineradicable laws of the universe, JW's music only INCREASES the quality of everything it graces, always and forever. That means, by definition, his reuse of material is a stroke of genius the rest of us might come around to recognizing as such years from now, if we're lucky.

 

Ok, we're good. I'm glad I was able to sort that out for us.

 

 

i realized after I typed it, i committed JWfan Forum sin.  jay already scorned me with a neutral emoji.  it's the equivalent to your parents not being mad at you --- just disappointed.  I almost would rather have the passive aggressive confused emoji at that point. 

 

Let me try to explain myself....the prologue (aka de-aged stuff --- the 1950s de-aging was fine) is my least favorite thing about the film.  It made me cringe so much. seriously, i'll take an Indy in boxers angry about loud music than a funky ass CGI face with a voice that doesn't match.

 

It looks good for a split second then immediately looks like shit. Sure sure it introduces the dial and Basil, although he's similar to Ox and Mac in that way, where the audience never really latches onto him.  Solid performance on the train though.  Didn't buy the whole going insane from the dial though, another weak point....

 

ANYWAYS what i'm trying to say is that I don't need a huge 'fan-service' portion in a movie.  And the prologue and lots of the rehashed themes felt that way. 

 

But besides the On the Tank bit, I don't care for any of the re-hashed stuff from other films throughout the movie.  Like the bit from Ants! in the plane when they're in ancient Greece....to me it just takes me out of the already good themes.

 

I will prefer the film versions of everything after MM does his magic, believe me.  But my overall point to all of this is i don't think any missing music changes one opinion about the OST.

 

 

[Faleel 5,360]

There are 4 levels to modern JW scores:

 

The score as heard on the OST

 

The Score as used in film

 

The full final score without microedits, dialed out portions, tracking.

 

The early versions/takes.

[Damien F 1,742]

12 minutes ago, Signals said:

There are 4 levels to modern JW scores:

 

The score as heard on the OST

 

The Score as used in film

 

The full final score without microedits, dialed out portions, tracking.

 

The early versions/takes.

 

There used to be a 5th level which was the score as heard on the FYC which sadly seems to be no more

 

The TROS OST + FYC is so much better than only the OST. Thankfully we got that FYC before they started just using the OST but it's such a pity we didn't get one for DoD.

[Faleel 5,360]

13 minutes ago, Damien F said:

 

There used to be a 5th level which was the score as heard on the FYC which sadly seems to be no more

 

The TROS OST + FYC is so much better than only the OST. Thankfully we got that FYC before they started just using the OST but it's such a pity we didn't get one for DoD.

FYC is a wing on the 2nd level.

[Bellosh 3,419]

FYC to Disney stands for FUCK YOUR Cd's

[Bayesian 1,364]

1 hour ago, Bellosh said:

 

i realized after I typed it, i committed JWfan Forum sin.  jay already scorned me with a neutral emoji.  it's the equivalent to your parents not being mad at you --- just disappointed.  I almost would rather have the passive aggressive confused emoji at that point. 

 

Let me try to explain myself....

I'm not going to speak for Jay, but regarding my reply to you, that was purely in jest, meant only to resemble what a rabid, unrepentant JW true believer would write. (Which I'm sure, in this case, is likely pretty close to what a sober and perfectly objective commentator would write about JW's music.)

 

You don't need to explain yourself to anyone and can feel whatever you like about DoD's music. : )

[Bellosh 3,419]

nah i know, and jay was probably surprised by my opinion with not caring about extra music --- i'm a bit of a hypocrite because I remember a few minutes of unreleased KOTCS music ultimately made me like that score more.

 

The thing is, I already like DoD's score more than i did with KOTCS.

[Edmilson 7,473]

1 hour ago, Signals said:

There are 4 levels to modern JW scores:

 

The score as heard on the OST

 

The Score as used in film

 

The full final score without microedits, dialed out portions, tracking.

 

The early versions/takes.

It would be interesting to categorize JW's scores into those 4 levels. 

 

The Matessino-expanded scores would fit into all 4 categories, but recent stuff like The Book Thief, The BFG and Dial of Destiny are only on level 1 due to the impossibility of expanding them (at least right now).

 

The Last Jedi and The Witches of Eastwick are the only ones I think on both level 1 and 2, because we have the OST and, thanks to the iso, the score as used in the film.

 

And to think we have so many holy grails stuck on level 1... The Patriot, JFK, etc.

[Faleel 5,360]

All the scores are on level 2, unless they are rejected, because they are in the film....

[Jay 37,374]

10 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

The Book Thief, The BFG and Dial of Destiny are only on level 1 due to the impossibility of expanding them (at least right now).

 

The Book Thief had an FYC album with unreleased nusic. Every Williams score from '11-'19 did. 

[Edmilson 7,473]

16 minutes ago, Signals said:

All the scores are on level 2, unless they are rejected, because they are in the film....

Yeah, but I was talking about their availability to be listened outside the movies. TLJ and TWoE only have their OSTs but at least the iso helps a bit while their expansion don't come.

 

5 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

The Book Thief had an FYC album with unreleased nusic. Every Williams score from '11-'19 did. 

So I guess the FYCs need to be level 2 then?

[Faleel 5,360]

I consider the FYC a snapshot/abbreviation of Level 2.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

7 hours ago, Jay said:

It's a great cue!

 

 

[Damien F 1,742]

I do actually respect JW's desire to curate an enjoyable listening experience that flows well on the album, and I guess JW fanatics like us who complain about missing cues or microedited moments make up a very small proportion of people who listen to the album.

[Jay 37,374]

Has anyone given any thought to what scene "To Athens" 0:00-1:09 could have been written for?

[Bellosh 3,419]

15 minutes ago, Jay said:

Has anyone given any thought to what scene "To Athens" 0:00-1:09 could have been written for?

 

i don't have time to check the length of the scene to compare, but when Indy and Helena are discussing what to do next in the tuk-tuk, they are talking about Archimedes and so there's a bit in the beginning of the cue that references the dial/Archimedes..... and then more into Helena's theme as she consider's having Indy come along.

 

There seems to be enough time with no music that that's where it would fit.

 

And it was simply cut?  That's my best guess.

[Jay 37,374]

Oooh, that sounds likely!

[Damien F 1,742]

I don't think this has been mentioned yet. The music that plays at the airport when Teddy is trying to jump start the plane right before he sees Helena chase Voller's plane is not in the The Airport track. I'm not sure if it was just microedited out or if the album has a different version of the cue from the movie. I think it is the Airport Nazis cue. Perhaps the difference is due to the numerous patches for that cue listed on GEMA

[Jay 37,374]

Almost every OST track is different from its film counterpart.  But yes I'd suspect a lot of patches in the film are not on the album.

[Bellosh 3,419]

in terms of missing Raiders March hits that didn't make it onto the OST, my 2 favorites are:

 

2:10:32-2:10:38 (when Indy shoots the nazi hanging on Helena's leg in the plane)

 

1:40:15 - 1:40:19 (when Indy and Helena steal the just married car)

 

they both seem to sound unique to DoD --- so these are top priority for me.

 

the raiders march hit when Indy shoots at the villains at Archimedes Tomb sounds like something from the flying wing fight. can't pinpoint in my head at the moment. 

[Damien F 1,742]

21 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

in terms of missing Raiders March hits that didn't make it onto the OST, my 2 favorites are:

 

2:10:32-2:10:38 (when Indy shoots the nazi hanging on Helena's leg in the plane)

 

1:40:15 - 1:40:19 (when Indy and Helena steal the just married car)

 

they both seem to sound unique to DoD --- so these are top priority for me.

 

the raiders march hit when Indy shoots at the villains at Archimedes Tomb sounds like something from the flying wing fight. can't pinpoint in my head at the moment. 

 

I like the Raider Match at 1:07:35 when Indy takes control of the Tuk Tuk and says he didn't come to Tangiers to rescue Helana from her fiance.

[Bellosh 3,419]

I'll give it a listen!

 

Yes you're right that should make my list too

[Jay 37,374]

I want to make a list of all the bits from prior scores (Indy and otherwise) at some point when I have time

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

6 hours ago, Bellosh said:

i don't have time to check the length of the scene to compare, but when Indy and Helena are discussing what to do next in the tuk-tuk, they are talking about Archimedes and so there's a bit in the beginning of the cue that references the dial/Archimedes..... and then more into Helena's theme as she consider's having Indy come along.

 

There seems to be enough time with no music that that's where it would fit.

 

And it was simply cut?  That's my best guess.

 

There are no visible cuts in the music up until the map transition, so yeah that definitely has to be the correct spot. I'm not sure if any of the footage was altered though, since the Archimedes reference doesn't start until after they're finished talking about the Grafikos.

 

 

[Jay 37,374]

Wow thanks for that, @Manakin Skywalker!  That's convincing enough for me to assume it's what happened!

 

So do we think the OST track just contains long cue ("To Athens") and the film just dropped the first half of it, OR do we think it's two cues, and the film drops the first of them, so we don't know it's name?

[Bellosh 3,419]

4 hours ago, Jay said:

I want to make a list of all the bits from prior scores (Indy and otherwise) at some point when I have time

 

 

1:03:55-1:03:58  ------> is :15-:18 of The Rocket Sled from KOTCS (i'm almost sure it's not Whirl Thru Academe)

 

1:03:59-1:04:11 ------> is :30-:40 of The Rocket Sled from KOTCS

 

1:04:23- 1:04:36 ------> is somewhere between 1:02-1:27 of Escape From Venice, I can't match it exactly, gonna need help on this...... but it's all Venice.  Interestingly enough that motif transitions really smoothly back into Helena's theme.  Love it.

 

1:05:11 -1:05:12 is more Escape from Venice

 

1:05:22-1:05:23 ------> is 2:11-2:12 of Whirl Thru Acadame 

 

1:05:37-1:05:40 ------> is something from KOTCS, i can't pinpoint it, it's literally all starting to sound the same to me.

 

1:05:49-1:05:55 ------> 2:10-2:15 of Escape from Venice

 

1:33:51-1:33:53 ------> is the nazi theme from The Last Crusade, trying to think of the cue that would have that bit that closely resembles it, any takers?

 

2:04:38-2:05:13 ------> 3:11-3:43 of The Spell of the Skull from KOTCS

 

2:07:20-2:07:23 ------> :34-:36 of Ants!  (someone with better ears might want to double check this, as Ants! has a few moments with these swirling strings, but i think i chose the right one)

 

2:10:22-2:10:31 ------> 3:20-3:28 of The Spell of the Skull. 

 

2:11:09-2:11:19 ------> 2:51:2:59 of Map/Out of Fuel from ToD

 

some of these might be off by a second or two because it seems JW kinda dragged out some of the notes or shortened them in DoD, but for the most part it's the same.

 

I'll keep adding when I notice another one.

 

before you put any of these in spreadsheet, do double check them please.

[Brando 1,864]

2 hours ago, Bellosh said:

2:11:09-2:11:19 -------> 2:51:2:59 of Map/Out of Fuel from ToD

This was a fun surprise that I didn't expect and every time I watch the scene I prepare myself for the glorious mix of Indy and Short Round's theme and then it doesn't happen

[Bellosh 3,419]

3 minutes ago, Brando said:

This was a fun surprise that I didn't expect and every time I watch the scene I prepare myself for the glorious mix of Indy and Short Round's theme and then it doesn't happen

 

you think the yellow parachute is a nod to the float? 

[Brando 1,864]

13 minutes ago, Bellosh said:

 

you think the yellow parachute is a nod to the float? 

I hope so! I'm glad they snuck in the Blood of Kali reference, instead of trying to ignore Temple of Doom.

[Andy 4,141]

Probably my favorite line of dialogue.  Now that’s how you do a callback. I nearly bust my gut laughing. 

[LB Makes Stuff 240]

I was listening to “Germany, 1944” and noticed the Raiders March (halfway through the track but before the Nazi ostinato moment) sounded pretty similar to when Indy shoots the Nazi on the plane. Y’all think it’s the same insert but a different recording?