Are There Any Film Composers Working Who Can’t Read/Write Music?

[Edmilson 7,475]

35 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Especially for kazoo.

Reminded me of this:

 

 

[1977 1,743]

So there's hope for me yet. Perhaps time to consider getting that digital piano I've been eyeing.

 

#2ndMidLifeCrisis

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

4 minutes ago, JTWfan77 said:

So there's hope for me yet. Perhaps time to consider getting that digital piano I've been eyeing.

 

#2ndMidLifeCrisis

 

If you're practicing your instrument without making progress, I recommend getting a tutor to improve your technique. 

[1977 1,743]

Thanks @Jurassic Shark, that's good advice. My sister-in-law is an accomplished muzo and a brilliant pianist, if I needed help I 'm sure she'd be willing to help me out with a few lessons.

[Mr. Gitz 85]

On 16/12/2023 at 1:40 AM, Jurassic Shark said:

 

You could have recorded your ideas. 

I was in the shower. I didn’t know a Batman theme was going to be sent into my brain from the great muse whilst lathering my arm pits. 

[GerateWohl 4,385]

@JTWfan77 Another advice from someone who failed a lot with his instrument. If you really wanna learn sight reading and improve your technique, you should probably practice with easier pieces. Just etudes or something like that. It’s not that exciting, but you can better work on such technical things. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

1 hour ago, Mr. Gitz said:

I was in the shower. I didn’t know a Batman theme was going to be sent into my brain from the great muse whilst lathering my arm pits. 

 

You need to bug every room in your house 24/7.

 

1 hour ago, JTWfan77 said:

Thanks @Jurassic Shark, that's good advice. My sister-in-law is an accomplished muzo and a brilliant pianist, if I needed help I 'm sure she'd be willing to help me out with a few lessons.

 

You'll likely need more than a few lessons to make significant progress. First one has to learn the technique, then one has to learn to apply it in different pieces.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,556]

2 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

If you're practicing your instrument without making progress, I recommend getting a tutor to improve your technique. 

 

WHAT THE HELL DID I JUST READ???!!!! 

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

9 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

WHAT THE HELL DID I JUST READ???!!!! 

 

I'll give you a private lesson on my PianoOnlyFans account. 

[mosabri2 7]

I know this is an old post but I think it needs to be brought up how composing works.

Most composers make a mockup which is essentially the full music created in the computer using a DAW and various plugins to recreate whatever sounds are necessary. These mockups will vary in quality as these sample libraries often have "full strings" patches which represent the full string section, or they also have patches for the individual string sections and you can program first violins, 2nd violins, etc. to get a more realistic sound. If you use full strings, as you play chords the number of string players tends to vary which is why to our brains it does not sound realistic. If you keep the same voicing then sometimes it sounds alright at best.

Technically in that sense, if a composer makes a realistic mockup with a patch for every string instrument, woodwind, brass, etc. they are doing more orchestration and writing a more complete score than john williams is, even if they are not notating anything. 

This is also likely why woodwinds are not prominent in modern film music. It's just easier to do strings and brass. Because we have "full strings" and "full brass" patches, but often not "full woodwinds." And modern composers don't know how to orchestrate woodwinds, so what they do if they use woodwindws at all is mostly for solo lines, rather than any ensemble uses.

 

Composers are effectively music producers and are varying levels of tech savvy. Big composers have assistants which help with tasks too. They also have an orchestrator which translates it to be recorded.

TV and video game composers who never record live music effectively never use sheet music at all.

This has been done since the 90s and john williams is one of the few composers doing it the "wrong" way as no one can hear his music until it is recorded.

Because of this I would not be surprised if plenty of famous composers are quite bad at reading music because they haven't done it for 30 years. Elton John, for example is a classically trained pianist but he said he is bad at reading music because it's been too long since he's done it.

In the same vain, danny elfman likely cannot read or write music more than simply having an understanding of how to read music, but no technical practice to do it at a decent speed to be useful. In the same way my dad is a non-musician but knows how to read music only because he learned what the notes on the page are, what the rhythms represent, etc.

Back in the old days, you would use multiple computers with each computer running one instrument since PC hardware was much slower. You can do multi-computer setups in a lot of Audio software, but these days computers are so fast that you can now load projects with all the instruments on one computer.

As far as modern composers, I would not be surprised if many of them are not particularly good musicians and therefore do not read or write music very well, even if they have the knowledge. Hans zimmer as a pianist would not even be able to play that "Thinking out Loud" ed sheeran piece as it is beyond his playing abilities. If you look at some videos of Ramin Djawadi playing the westworld theme, he honestly wasn't very good.

I would not be surprised if the multi-oscar winning Ludwig Goransson does not really read or write music at a high level despite having studied music and majoring in composing.

just look at how many modern composers no longer conduct their music. 
 

But at the end of the day, none of this has any bearing on whether someone can write good film music or not. Danny elfman is gifted in his own way and writes music in his own style.

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

9 hours ago, mosabri2 said:

As far as modern composers, I would not be surprised if many of them are not particularly good musicians

 

Amen to that.

 

9 hours ago, mosabri2 said:

If you look at some videos of Ramin Djawadi playing the westworld theme, he honestly wasn't very good.

 

I find that performance quite okay.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

9 hours ago, mosabri2 said:

This has been done since the 90s and john williams is one of the few composers doing it the "wrong" way as no one can hear his music until it is recorded.

 

A luxury no doubt earned from decades at the top of the industry, but I suspect that a lot of directors/producers would be hesitant to hire him nowadays due to the lack of instant, realistic demos. Didn't Williams remark that Cuaron asked him for demos for PoA, and Willams told him it would take weeks of work? I think JW was lucky in this respect that SS/Lucas/etc were understanding of his process, and that he was active before demos were the norm.

 

9 hours ago, mosabri2 said:

just look at how many modern composers no longer conduct their music.

 

Happy to be corrected, but I wonder if this has more to do with composers wanting to be in the booth and discuss the music with the filmmakers, instead of worrying about the conducting side. However, this does go along with my general stance in this area that the effectiveness and suitability of a score for its film significantly outweighs any need for said score to be technically complex.

[Edmilson 7,475]

Speaking of Djawadi, isn't he a conductor? I've seen some info that he conducts at least some of his own scores and the GoT concert.

[Mephariel 451]

5 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Speaking of Djawadi, isn't he a conductor? I've seen some info that he conducts at least some of his own scores and the GoT concert.

 

I believe so yes. I think there are a lot of composers that are willing to conduct music in live concerts like Tyler, Desplat, etc. Whether they conduct during the recording for a film is different story. Like what Richard is saying, a lot of them are more focus on storytelling at that point. 

[mosabri2 7]

11 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Amen to that.

 

 

I find that performance quite okay.

As someone who is a musician who plays piano and who grew up in a family member who got first and 2nd place at MTNA nationalss for piano, I know the world of high level musicians at least in the U.S.

My brother is an excellent composer, and I wrote plenty of music since 10 years old using music notation software like finale. And I know plenty of top pianists who are mediocre composers at best.

john williams is clearly at a different level where his music understanding and skill is in a different level.

The playing seen in that video is not even kindergarten level beyond maybe the octaves being a big reach for someone at that age.

if you watch live videos of hans zimmer playing piano, you would expect him to be better for someone who makes a living composing and probably plays keyboard every single day.

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

14 minutes ago, mosabri2 said:

As someone who is a musician who plays piano and who grew up in a family member who got first and 2nd place at MTNA nationalss for piano, I know the world of high level musicians at least in the U.S.

 

I didn't say it's concert pianist level.

 

15 minutes ago, mosabri2 said:

who grew up in a family member

 

These are called mothers, you know. 

 

16 minutes ago, mosabri2 said:

I wrote plenty of music since 10 years old

 

Anything you'd like to share?

 

17 minutes ago, mosabri2 said:

using music notation software like finale.

 

I prefer Sibelius. 

[mosabri2 7]

52 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I didn't say it's concert pianist level.

 

 

These are called mothers, you know. 

 

 

Anything you'd like to share?

 

 

I prefer Sibelius. 

Well in the sense that I went to indiana university (same as my brother who is concert pianist) and it is considered the #1 music school in america. And at that level you would be surpised to learn that not everyone there is exceptionally good. I was just not being obvious because there is only one person that wins MTNA every year, and it's rare that someone makes it twice to national level in piano.

But anyways the point is, music these days is more about the fusion of being a music producer and composer.

Look at the conductor for the movie oppenheimer (Anthony Parnther) who works with Ludwig Göransson a lot. He is actually a studio musician himself and has played bassoon on many movies. You wouldn't know this as it is not obvious public info, but he composed at least 10 marching band shows himself. Marching band show composers are effectively full composers and orchestrators who compose in the more traditional way. Many of the shows he wrote the marching band drill as well. I know because in HS he wrote 3 of our shows and certainly he has written many more

Actually come to think about it, if you heard the music from the greatest showman, you would think it was relatively uninspired music. But Justin hurwitz orchestrates his own music in notation software and then transfers it to a DAW to make mockups which are good enough to use on set or for editing purposes. So in that sense, John Williams should have at least learned to use a computer if he wanted to make film music, because even if he cares very little about music production, he should at least learn to notate in a computer software instead of doing everything hand written. it forces you to orchestrate your own music and the playback functions in notation software at least can produce a mockup that can be heard.

 

[Badzeee 110]

You don't need to read music to be a brilliant composer. Benny Andersson of ABBA doesn't read music - co-wrote some of the most popular songs of all time. A genius. Paul McCartney; same. Mike Scott of The Waterboys doesn't read music - brilliant songwriter.  Pretty sure Stevie Wonder doesn't read music, because he can't see. Not in the sense of having working eyeballs, at least, but he "writes" better music than many with a full working set of acknowledged human senses. Stravinsky is said not to have been able to write musical notation. Captain Beefheart famously used to impart his musical ideas to his musicians and "painted" his songs via their perceptions. 

 

In terms of film music composition, I've read that Hans Zimmer creates musical "sketches" that are filtered through orchestrators, and Danny Elfman, like many of the above mentioned, comes from a rock band background and has a similar approach.. 

 

All of the above is music composition of some description. Is improv a valid approach to music composition? Absolutely, 100%. Can you compose by "making something up" as you go along? For sure, even if you have to get somebody else to record it and write it down for you afterwards. 

 

Is that practical for film composition? Probably not, but notation is essentially a mathematical language, a code that is the foundation for a performance, and play and performance come first in terms of the creation of new compositions. Reading and writing musical notation is just a formal language that originally evolved to record musical ideas; a way of recording templates for eventual performance.  

 

You need rules to make art. You need building blocks - notation, be it an alphabet, numerals, etc. It's useful and super-important. However, you can come at any concept of making art from a myriad of angles, and these days, tech is an approach that enables musically adept people to go straight from play/perfomance to record, skipping the act of notation. Sometimes, it's those who don't or haven't learnt (or are actually physically unable to follow) the rules who find new ways forward.  I think attempting to tie any language to one absolute form, or saying only one grammatical approach is valid, will always and inevitably be too narrow, because any language - especially music - is always evolving. 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Brian Eno couldn't play any instrument let alone read!

[KK 3,307]

As has been described in detail above, most film composers aren't very good at reading music nowadays. They can slowly read through a piece of sheet music (like sounding out words) or loosely follow a score to a performance or a recording session, but many aren't fluent with it, because unless you happen to do a lot of orchestration, it doesn't have to factor much into the average film composer's workflow anymore. And this has definitely had an impact on the general sound and aesthetic of mainstream film music.

 

14 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Amen to that.

 

 

I find that performance quite okay.

 

He's right. That video is telling that Djawadi isn't really a good pianist. But then again, most film composers aren't, and that's also okay.

 

14 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Happy to be corrected, but I wonder if this has more to do with composers wanting to be in the booth and discuss the music with the filmmakers, instead of worrying about the conducting side. However, this does go along with my general stance in this area that the effectiveness and suitability of a score for its film significantly outweighs any need for said score to be technically complex.

 

Yes, film composers are generally more useful in the booth. But the reality is, most film composers are terrified of conducting because many of them aren't very good at it and haven't had many opportunities to get better at it. And again, that's okay. It's always more effective to have someone who knows what they're doing and knows how to best communicate to the musicians on the podium, so they can best translate the composer's needs from the booth.

 

The demanding needs of a contemporary film music recording session now requires multiple people with specialized duties (i.e. conducting, copyists, recording engineers, etc) to get the deed done. Gone are the days of the romanticized renaissance man on the podium (a la Williams, who was also often supported by a robust team).

[mosabri2 7]

1 hour ago, KK said:

 

 

 

Yes, film composers are generally more useful in the booth. But the reality is, most film composers are terrified of conducting because many of them aren't very good at it and haven't had many opportunities to get better at it. And again, that's okay. It's always more effective to have someone who knows what they're doing and knows how to best communicate to the musicians on the podium, so they can best translate the composer's needs from the booth.

 

The demanding needs of a contemporary film music recording session now requires multiple people with specialized duties (i.e. conducting, copyists, recording engineers, etc) to get the deed done. Gone are the days of the romanticized renaissance man on the podium (a la Williams, who was also often supported by a robust team).

This is a big point. you can record 1 hour of film music in 2-4 hours if it is easy enough. If you compose 2 movies a year, that's only 4-8 hours of conducting. Not very much compared to someone who conducts many times a week.

The only reason I bring up ramin djawadi being a bad pianist, or hans zimmer being a bad pianist is this is how they compose music. They play the music in with a midi keyboard and being bad at piano limits the music you can write. On top of that you would think if you are a composer of 30 years, playing the piano every single day that you would get somewhat good. I called it "kindergarden" level playing, because if you go to piano competitions, kindergardeners play better than that. 

In comparison, brian tyler, while no pianist, at least plays at the level I would expect someone to play to not be as limited with composition.

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

5 hours ago, mosabri2 said:

it is considered the #1 music school in america.

 

I don't know, I've been reading pretty good things about Canadian music educations.

 

4 hours ago, Badzeee said:

Stravinsky is said not to have been able to write musical notation.

 

I don't think that's true. 

 

2 hours ago, mosabri2 said:

They play the music in with a midi keyboard and being bad at piano limits the music you can write.

 

Not really. You could input the difficult parts with a mouse. 

 

[mosabri2 7]

51 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I don't know, I've been reading pretty good things about Canadian music educations.

 

 

I don't think that's true. 

 

 

Not really. You could input the difficult parts with a mouse. 

 

You can input difficult parts with a mouse but you do not get the velocities that you get by playing it in. Especially for realistic mockups. And inputting piano music using midi is hard to visualize if you don't have any understanding of how to play it in the first place. The best you can do is slow it down and play it, or play it one hand at a time.

[Mephariel 451]

2 hours ago, mosabri2 said:

This is a big point. you can record 1 hour of film music in 2-4 hours if it is easy enough. If you compose 2 movies a year, that's only 4-8 hours of conducting. Not very much compared to someone who conducts many times a week.

The only reason I bring up ramin djawadi being a bad pianist, or hans zimmer being a bad pianist is this is how they compose music. They play the music in with a midi keyboard and being bad at piano limits the music you can write. On top of that you would think if you are a composer of 30 years, playing the piano every single day that you would get somewhat good. I called it "kindergarden" level playing, because if you go to piano competitions, kindergardeners play better than that. 

In comparison, brian tyler, while no pianist, at least plays at the level I would expect someone to play to not be as limited with composition.

 

To me, this bring up Badzeee's point doesn't it? Brian Tyler is a classical trained composer, and yet he hasn't wrote anything as memorable as Djawadi's GOT theme or ZImmer's Pirate theme. Film composing is mostly about storytelling with music. Tyler has pretty good music knowledge, but as a storyteller, he is average-to-good at best. Personally, I found his music to be cold and calculating, missing a lot of the warmth from top level composers. If you watch him doing a conducting session from "Crazy Rich Asians," it is like he is doing it with his professor watching his every move. 

[KK 3,307]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Not really. You could input the difficult parts with a mouse. 

 

Depends. I think mosabri2's point about being a poor pianist is more about how that can be symptomatic of having limited knowledge of existing musical vocabulary and repertoire.

 

This limits your imaginative capacity for what you write. Suddenly your palette, and musical choices are defined by the limitations of your sample libraries, plugins and DAW capabilities. Because that's what you know. And for better or for worse, most new film music, even the big "traditional" orchestral ones, have become aesthetically informed by "DAW music". That's why you never really see concert music composers do "mockups" for commissions, even though they too, also mostly write on computers. 

 

Of course, piano proficiency or technical performance prowess is hardly a requirement to be a great, or more importantly, interesting composer (history has given us many great composers/shitty performers). You can circumvent those limitations by expanding your musical vocabulary, what you listen to, what you watch, how you make music (away from the DAW), the musicians you work with (you learn the most through this), etc. That's why I'd argue the most interesting music being written now for film is being done by the "outsiders".

 

But alas, mainstream Hollywood, where the money is, rewards playing it by convention.

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

1 hour ago, mosabri2 said:

You can input difficult parts with a mouse but you do not get the velocities that you get by playing it in. Especially for realistic mockups.

 

Well, you can input real-time velocities after you've input the notes. 

 

[GerateWohl 4,385]

A composers vocabulary is not limited to writing notes.

Of course you can just write the notes and leave every thing else concerning intonation, dynamics, tembre and volume to the players and the conductor.

But that is a very limited vocabulary.

There are many levels and aspects of composition, like writing each instruments voice from the perspective of the player, so that it is notated in a way that she or he knows best what is intended and what to do and not too exhausting to play.

 

Probably such details like intonation doesn't matter much for a filmscore, that is drowned under sound effects.

But in case, that doesn't matter much is the point where my interest in film music dissapears.

That is why I don't have much interest in modern blockbuster scores.

[JWScores 28]

11 hours ago, Badzeee said:

Stravinsky is said not to have been able to write musical notation.

 

No no no, Stravinsky was of course extremely capable of writing musical notation, and he wrote all of his scores. I don't know where you got this from, but maybe the source misinterpreted a statement by Stravinsky himself, where he said he had had some difficulties in finding the best way to notate a section (I believe the final one - going from memory) of the Rite of Spring. He came up with it at the piano and it was a nightmare of rhythmic irregularities, and more than one solution was possible, in terms of notation - and maybe, none of them was completely satisfactory. So, it was a difficulty in finding the best solution to express a very complicated musical idea originating from improvisation, not a difficulty related to notation in itself.    

 

[Mr. Who 919]

I think that being a good pianist is not at all a requirement for composing great music. A composer’s main instrument might be cello or guitar or piano etc and the quality of the music they write is not dependent on their proficiency at performing piano.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

Thomas Newman talked in an interview once about the soloists and specialists he works with, and he had a really relaxed attitude when it comes to the musical acumen of the people he works with. Paraphrasing, he said that if someone is really good at playing <instrument> but can't read music or has difficulty in that area, he's (exact words) 'grateful to have you'.

 

I'd imagine finding composers or players who have that magic combination of a great talent at music theory and a knack for memorable music (such as, but absolutely not exclusively, Williams) is like gold dust. The majority of creatives are likely to be one or the other - studying music theory and taking great pains to write music that's structurally inspired by the greats or writing from the heart and creating music that works for the picture, regardless of how simple it may be.

[Chen G. 3,954]

39 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

I think that being a good pianist is not ant all a requirement for composing great music.

 

Certainly. Many a great composer were lousy pianists: Haydn comes to mind, but also Schubert and Wagner.

 

Okay, "lousy" is not necessarily the right term, but certainly not very great pianists.

[TolkienSS 407]

I don't know why it's such a big point of contention when composers inputting notes via MIDI keyboard don't show extra professional levels of piano skills when doing so.

 

The MIDI keyboard is a tool. And a required one nowadays. 

MIDI keyboards exist because a piano has the easiest, most comprehensive, and complete way of playing every note, and is not limited in its range. 

MIDI keyboards don't exist so you can get virtuoso at playing them. 

Pianos do.

 

A composer doesn't need to be a pianist, just like he doesn't need to be a violinist or an oboist.

[GerateWohl 4,385]

30 minutes ago, TolkienSS said:

I don't know why it's such a big point of contention when composers inputting notes via MIDI keyboard don't show extra professional levels of piano skills when doing so.

 

The MIDI keyboard is a tool. And a required one nowadays. 

MIDI keyboards exist because a piano has the easiest, most comprehensive, and complete way of playing every note, and is not limited in its range. 

MIDI keyboards don't exist so you can get virtuoso at playing them. 

Pianos do.

 

A composer doesn't need to be a pianist, just like he doesn't need to be a violinist or an oboist.

I think, the point goes rather the other way around. Nobody says, you need to be a great pianist to be a great composer. I rather think, people are trying to understand and searching for explanations why todays orchestral scores are so poor musically.

 

And the idea, that this might have to do with musical education, skills, toolset and/or experience as performer seems not so far fetched to me.

 

[Badzeee 110]

4 hours ago, JWScores said:

 

No no no, Stravinsky was of course extremely capable of writing musical notation, and he wrote all of his scores. I don't know where you got this from, but maybe the source misinterpreted a statement by Stravinsky himself, where he said he had had some difficulties in finding the best way to notate a section (I believe the final one - going from memory) of the Rite of Spring. He came up with it at the piano and it was a nightmare of rhythmic irregularities, and more than one solution was possible, in terms of notation - and maybe, none of them was completely satisfactory. So, it was a difficulty in finding the best solution to express a very complicated musical idea originating from improvisation, not a difficulty related to notation in itself.    

 

 

Interesting… That’s quite a beautiful and adroit description of how he worked, and illuminating. (Except for the finger-wagging opening.) 

 

I’m fascinated by the early processes of making music, and how some, like John Williams, are literally able to write complex sketches on pieces of paper (or via piano, I’m not sure what comes first) before refining - and for others, they go straight for a guitar or electronic keyboard and skip that part of the process entirely. Which seems to be the modern approach. 

 

11 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

I don't think that's true. 

 

 

I stand corrected. Shouldn’t listen to hearsay. 

 

Nevertheless, here I go again, as I thought of some other actual film composers, currently alive, who are rumoured - rumoured, I emphasise - to not bother with musical notation. And that’s Tom Tykwer, Johnny Klimek and Reinhold Heil.   

[JWScores 28]

27 minutes ago, Badzeee said:

 

Interesting… That’s quite a beautiful and adroit description of how he worked, and illuminating. (Except for the finger-wagging opening.) 

 

Sorry for the finger-wagging, I didn't mean that, it was just an instinctive reaction because Stravinsky is one of my all-time musical heroes  

 

Stravinsky did indeed compose mostly at the piano because (as he once said) he needed to be in direct contact with a sound-producing instrument to get better ideas, or even to get started. There are examples, in the Rite of Spring, of chords and sequences that were evidently conceived at the piano. This is quite true also for John Williams, and probably for most composers who are/were also good pianists, because they could test or even get their ideas in a sufficiently complete form while playing. Instead, composers like e.g. Morricone (who had studied trumpet and was not a good pianist at all) preferred to write everything at the desk, conceiving the music completely in their mind.

 

 

[mosabri2 7]

5 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

I don't know why it's such a big point of contention when composers inputting notes via MIDI keyboard don't show extra professional levels of piano skills when doing so.

 

The MIDI keyboard is a tool. And a required one nowadays. 

MIDI keyboards exist because a piano has the easiest, most comprehensive, and complete way of playing every note, and is not limited in its range. 

MIDI keyboards don't exist so you can get virtuoso at playing them. 

Pianos do.

 

A composer doesn't need to be a pianist, just like he doesn't need to be a violinist or an oboist.

If you look at a famous theme, like say Forrest gump.

This piece would never have been written by zimmer or djawadi, not because it's not their style, but because they would not be able to play such a theme. Now this piece is not difficult, but zimmer and djawadi play at such a low level that this would be beyond their abilities.

if you look at the theme to Westworld, it sounds like it was written by someone who can barely play piano. It sounds limited by the player's abilities, whereas the feather theme sounds complete and intentional in the way it is played.

To me "tennessee" from pearl harbor also somewhat sounds limited by Hans zimmer's playing abilities.

Even if brian tyler has not written anything memorable, you can definitely sense a higher level of musical quality from his music and none of it is offensive.

[Badzeee 110]

3 hours ago, JWScores said:

 

Sorry for the finger-wagging, I didn't mean that, it was just an instinctive reaction because Stravinsky is one of my all-time musical heroes  

 

Stravinsky did indeed compose mostly at the piano because (as he once said) he needed to be in direct contact with a sound-producing instrument to get better ideas, or even to get started. There are examples, in the Rite of Spring, of chords and sequences that were evidently conceived at the piano. This is quite true also for John Williams, and probably for most composers who are/were also good pianists, because they could test or even get their ideas in a sufficiently complete form while playing. Instead, composers like e.g. Morricone (who had studied trumpet and was not a good pianist at all) preferred to write everything at the desk, conceiving the music completely in their mind.

 

 

 

(I was just ribbing you; it's cool.  Thanks for taking the time to describe these processes in an almost visual way - greatly appreciated.) 

 

Not being a musician myself (though many of my friends and family are), the nuances of writing music sometimes escape me. It makes absolute sense that there'd be a difference in the result, because of the approach taken, whether writerly (pure notation before orchestration), a combo method (sketches via piano or some other instrument, then notation and orchestration) and technical, via a computer keyboard in the studio. 

 

Which is, I s'pose, the core of the discussion here. Which is best? (Is it just preference, according to age?) Personally, I love the likes of Williams, Morricone, Barry and Hisaishi. Most modern film and TV scores tend towards the textural as opposed to the thematic and melodic. Some of it I like, and there's the odd modern composer that I think does, or has done genuinely interesting and memorable stuff.  However, much of it I find bland. Much modern scoring does the job as a soundscape, but I can't think of many scores that really help drive story, in the way all the above-named are masters at. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I really miss the latter approach. 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

1 minute ago, Badzeee said:

Much modern scoring does the job as a soundscape, but I can't think of many scores that really help drive story, in the way all the above-named are masters at. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I really miss the latter approach. 

 

We all do.

[mosabri2 7]

Saw this random video of a guy playing on top of interstellar. Look at the difference in the way it sounds with some decent piano playing on top

 

[Datameister 2,044]

3 hours ago, mosabri2 said:

If you look at a famous theme, like say Forrest gump.

This piece would never have been written by zimmer or djawadi, not because it's not their style, but because they would not be able to play such a theme. Now this piece is not difficult, but zimmer and djawadi play at such a low level that this would be beyond their abilities.

if you look at the theme to Westworld, it sounds like it was written by someone who can barely play piano. It sounds limited by the player's abilities, whereas the feather theme sounds complete and intentional in the way it is played.

To me "tennessee" from pearl harbor also somewhat sounds limited by Hans zimmer's playing abilities.

Even if brian tyler has not written anything memorable, you can definitely sense a higher level of musical quality from his music and none of it is offensive.

 

Really puzzling allegations here. HZ got his start as a keyboardist. He may not be a world-class virtuoso, but I'm sure he could get his fingers around something basic like the feather theme. (It's a great theme, but not remotely difficult to play.) And I believe Djawadi started with guitar, graduating summa cum laude from Berklee, so he's probably not the world's worst musician either.

[Mr. Who 919]

24 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

Really puzzling allegations here. HZ got his start as a keyboardist. He may not be a world-class virtuoso, but I'm sure he could get his fingers around something basic like the feather theme. (It's a great theme, but not remotely difficult to play.) And I believe Djawadi started with guitar, graduating summa cum laude from Berklee, so he's probably not the world's worst musician either.

Agree with this completely.

 

Zimmer often puts down his own playing and while he is not a virtuoso pianist, he can play decently I’m sure. Some composers often tend to use self deprivation about their skills as a way of expressing themselves, this is something I’ve heard many composers do.

 

As you said, Djawadi graduated Berklee where he stated out with guitar after which he started studying composition, both orchestral and jazz. 

[mosabri2 7]

41 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

Really puzzling allegations here. HZ got his start as a keyboardist. He may not be a world-class virtuoso, but I'm sure he could get his fingers around something basic like the feather theme. (It's a great theme, but not remotely difficult to play.) And I believe Djawadi started with guitar, graduating summa cum laude from Berklee, so he's probably not the world's worst musician either.

have you seen him play live? He tours live and has plenty of videos all over YT. He is much worse than I would have expected

he plays exactly like someone who has never taken lessons and bothered to learn how to play scales, etc. 

This is how you would play most popular music as it's not needed. I'm not saying hans zimmer does not know scales as obviously he does to compose music, but his fundamental playing is exactly that of someone who has never had formal lessons or cared.

I would bet zimmer would have trouble playing the most basic pieces from Clementi that you hear 1000x over by all the kindergardeners in the world due to the simple scales giving him trouble.

And how do I know these things? Because I played piano since 5 years old with no lessons. I play clarinet and violin, but piano I only played on the side. My playing was pretty much like hans zimmer with no ability to play simple piano pieces until I bothered to practice scales and arpeggios as well as playing through simple classical piano repertoire. Your playing improves so much just by playing piano pieces that are not written by you in your playing style, and if I were a composer you would bet 1000% I would at least practice or take lessons to get better.

[GerateWohl 4,385]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Who said:

As you said, Djawadi graduated Berklee where he stated out with guitar after which he started studying composition, both classical and jazz. 

Djawadi plays guitar live at his concerts (at least at the one I attended). 

 

But it is really a question of musical socialization. When you come from classical or jazz music you write themes and counterpoint. When you come from electronic music you write ostinato layers with chord progressions, when you come from pop music, you write melodies over repeating chord sequences. Of course each of them evolves a little into this or that direction. But basically people have a certain way of "thinking " music. 

[Faleel 5,365]

4 hours ago, mosabri2 said:

If you look at a famous theme, like say Forrest gump.

This piece would never have been written by zimmer or djawadi, not because it's not their style, but because they would not be able to play such a theme.

They could just stripe it.

[Mephariel 451]

3 hours ago, Datameister said:

 

Really puzzling allegations here. HZ got his start as a keyboardist. He may not be a world-class virtuoso, but I'm sure he could get his fingers around something basic like the feather theme. (It's a great theme, but not remotely difficult to play.) And I believe Djawadi started with guitar, graduating summa cum laude from Berklee, so he's probably not the world's worst musician either.

 

Not only that, I love the composition of Westworld's theme and I think that is just as emotional as the theme in Forest Grump. Maybe technically not as complex, but it didn't need to be. Djawadi also wrote "Light of the Seven," which is one of the most popular piano pieces in recent times. I also love Tennessee as well, and is one of my favorites from Zimmer. As is the theme from Interstellar, including the piano frenzy at the end of "Coward."

 

So I am not sure what is the relevancy of comparing their writing to Forrest Grump. Silvestri did a great job with that theme, but I think Djawadi and Zimmer's piano themes are beautiful as well. 

[Datameister 2,044]

@mosabri2 I think you're vastly overstating HZ's pianistic deficiencies. Your point would make more sense if you were talking about, like, the E.T. end credits or the solos in Snowy's theme—something that could only be written by someone intimately familiar with the repertoire and with the sounds an excellent pianist can produce.

 

But the feather theme is super simple. Totally diatonic, not fast, with easy pop chord changes and a melody consisting of three-note scale fragments and basic arpeggios. It's great because of its simplicity.

 

Silvestri didn't need to be a virtuosic pianist. He "just" needed to be really, really great at a much rarer skill: the ability to craft a tune that sounds totally inevitable, that gives the right feels, and that lingers in your ear and heart. And I'd argue that HZ has written some tunes like that as well, albeit very different in style.

[Schilkeman 964]

14 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Many a great composer were lousy pianists

I don't believe John Adams plays piano at all, and the Second Viennese School was mostly devoid of pianistic talent. But it is more the exception than the rule, I think.

[KK 3,307]

3 hours ago, Mephariel said:

 

Maybe technically not as complex, but it didn't need to be. Djawadi also wrote "Light of the Seven," which is one of the most popular piano pieces in recent times. I also love Tennessee as well, and is one of my favorites from Zimmer. As is the theme from Interstellar, including the piano frenzy at the end of "Coward."

 

Popular tracks featuring the piano, sure. But hardly pianistic. They're like pop songs, which is not at all a bad thing, but that doesn't make them great piano pieces.

 

The piano work in Coward is mostly just fast, repeating arpeggios. Nice to listen to, but doesn't take a strong, or even competent pianist to write.

 

A good case that comes to mind right now are Philip Glass' etudes. Glass himself has admitted many times to his piano-playing deficiencies. But he wrote those to become a better performer. And those compositions, while simple in design, are quite thoughtful in thinking about the mechanics of piano performance, specifically around what his style demands of the performer. They're excellent piano compositions. The Zimmer/Djawadi examples above might be fine enough pieces but aren't good examples of strong piano writing.

 

1 hour ago, Schilkeman said:

I don't believe John Adams plays piano at all, and the Second Viennese School was mostly devoid of pianistic talent. But it is more the exception than the rule, I think.

 

Indeed. And yet Adams' piano works are very pianistic. I'm sure Adams is decently proficient on the instrument, just probably not at a concert-performance level. He certainly knows the language.

 

But these comparisons are a bit moot because composers in that world are often curating the works around the commissioning ensemble or soloist. The priorities of the writing are different. That's not really how most composers think in the film world.

[Mephariel 451]

12 hours ago, KK said:

 

Popular tracks featuring the piano, sure. But hardly pianistic. They're like pop songs, which is not at all a bad thing, but that doesn't make them great piano pieces.

 

The piano work in Coward is mostly just fast, repeating arpeggios. Nice to listen to, but doesn't take a strong, or even competent pianist to write.

 

A good case that comes to mind right now are Philip Glass' etudes. Glass himself has admitted many times to his piano-playing deficiencies. But he wrote those to become a better performer. And those compositions, while simple in design, are quite thoughtful in thinking about the mechanics of piano performance, specifically around what his style demands of the performer. They're excellent piano compositions. The Zimmer/Djawadi examples above might be fine enough pieces but aren't good examples of strong piano writing.

 

 

Indeed. And yet Adams' piano works are very pianistic. I'm sure Adams is decently proficient on the instrument, just probably not at a concert-performance level. He certainly knows the language.

 

But these comparisons are a bit moot because composers in that world are often curating the works around the commissioning ensemble or soloist. The priorities of the writing are different. That's not really how most composers think in the film world.

 

They are great piano pieces for film. The reason "Light of the Seven" is so popular because it encapsulated the emptions of the storytelling perfectly. The build-up to a grand tragedy. Interstellar is extremely popular because the piano themes captures the mysteries of space, and discovery of science so well. I would argue that the simplicity of those pieces are what makes them powerful. Another example is Giacchino's "Exodus Wounds" in War for the Planet of the Apes. The piano writing is stupidly simple, but it cuts deep.

 

To me, those pieces work just as well as other complex pieces in other movies. It is all about the story. This is film scoring, not concert writing. 

[Richard Penna 3,696]

I love the little concert-like pieces in GoT - Light of the Seven, Jenny of Oldstones. They're very simple but oh so evocative. 

 

Some of his HotD material is little more than voices, drones and strings, but what he does with them to creative his sound is so interesting to me.

 

14 hours ago, KK said:

The Zimmer/Djawadi examples above might be fine enough pieces but aren't good examples of strong piano writing.

 

What's not strong about them? I'm looking for some element with more substance than just not being at Williams' level of orchestrational complexity, because we both know there's so much more than that to an effective piece of scoring.