The Evolution of John Williams’s sound over the years. Can it be broken down into eras? Or is it not that simple?

[Mr. Gitz 85]

I’ve been thinking about how John Williams’s music goes through changes and evolutions yet always still sounding like John Williams through & through. That unmistakable John Williams sound can be as brassy as the Imperial March or as wild as Catch Me if You Can.

All of this is probably wrong, and I’ll leave it to others to correct and possible take a step further but what I mean is..

 

There seems to be an aesthetic similarity to Jaws, Stars Wars, Close Encounters, Indiana Jones(Raiders) & E.T. That would be one era

 

But then years later we get a series of scores that also have similar aesthetics. For example, Harry Potter 3 sounds NOTHING like Harry Potter 1. When Williams got to the 3rd Harry Potter film he started playing with a new sound that we hear in scores like The Terminal, Tin Tin, Catch Me if You Can, War of the Worlds. I couldn’t describe it. It sounds more…playful? I don’t know. More Jazz influenced? But there’s a commonality there. Is it in instrumentation? Recording technology? Or purely how he writes? Perhaps all 3? 

 

I guess what I’m asking is, do you think Williams undergoes a cognizant deliberate stylistic change over the years, or just takes it movie by movie and does whatever he feels is appropriate?

 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

4 hours ago, Mr. Gitz said:

There seems to be an aesthetic similarity to Jaws, Stars Wars, Close Encounters, Indiana Jones(Raiders) & E.T. That would be one era

 

But then years later we get a series of scores that also have similar aesthetics. For example, Harry Potter 3 sounds NOTHING like Harry Potter 1. When Williams got to the 3rd Harry Potter film he started playing with a new sound that we hear in scores like The Terminal, Tin Tin, Catch Me if You Can, War of the Worlds.

 

I'm often left thinking that.

 

I think the third Harry Potter is an outlier in this regard: Williams ALWAYS tries to keep his serialised scores sounding fresh. Usually, its through the motivic language, but sometimes he goes reinvents the entire sound world between entries: he did it with The Lost World, and he did it (prompted by Cuaron) with the third Harry Potter.

 

But Harry Potter is not insignificant in this discussion because, while Williams 1970s-1980s scores have a particular sound, I feel like somewhere in the mid 1990s we can demarcate a somewhat different soundscape, whose trappings we mostly associate with the early Potters: certainly, Home Alone and parts of The Phantom Menace remind me of the "Potter" sound, as does later stuff like The Force Awakens.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

I remember, we had a thread on that subject, the stylistic phases in Williams' movie work. But I don't remember how it was called or when it was started. But I remember, there wasn't really a common sense about this.

 

And I think, for each stylistic change there isn't really always one point in time. Some earier scores already had some elements, which later became Williams common style and so on. Especially his americana scores haven't changed that much over the years, I would say.

 

[Smeltington 1,440]

Re: Azkaban, I always felt like after so much of the HP1 score was repeated in HP2, he probably felt obligated to give us something completely new. Of course Cuaron's input must have been a factor too, and I also think the film itself felt fresh and different and JW got inspired.

 

As for the eras of his work, it can be divided into BL (Before Ludlow) and AL (After Ludlow).   That was the pivotal moment, and things would never be the same!

[Thor 7,508]

It can be broken down, yes. I've done it. But the changes are almost always fluid and organic. Always early seeds, there are, that blossom later.

[Datameister 2,044]

Yeah, like Thor said, his sound has absolutely changed over time, but there typically aren't clear demarcations between eras, and you can divvy those eras up in a lot of different ways. It's almost like a fractal. His middle years sound different from his early years … the 90s sound different from the 80s … the late 90s sound different from the early 90s … '92 sounds different from '91 …

 

I would cite Jaws, Star Wars, SpaceCamp, Jurassic Park, KOTCS, and TFA as some scores where things seem to shift more suddenly, at least in retrospect. Your mileage may vary.

[ymenard 54]

Two other phases to not forget :  his gothical period (Fury, Dracula, TESB) and his post-modern sound (Always, Presumed Innocent, Boston Pops albums, Home Alone)

[GerateWohl 4,370]

6 minutes ago, ymenard said:

and his post-modern sound (Always, Presumed Innocent, Boston Pops albums, Home Alone)

That is, what I call his sugar plum phase, and I would count in there Hook and the first two Harry Potters.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

Presumed Innocent isn't sugar plumey.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

I had always put PoA's different sound down to Cuaron wanting something different, almost medieval sounding, instead of Columbus' orchestra/choir Hollywoodfest.

[mrbellamy 6,287]

3 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

I remember, we had a thread on that subject, the stylistic phases in Williams' movie work. But I don't remember how it was called or when it was started. But I remember, there wasn't really a common sense about this.

 

There were at least two where we were throwing around ideas

 

 

 

 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Presumed Innocent isn't sugar plumey.

That's true. And so isn't Born on the 4th of July.

[scoreman36 68]

I think the evolution of his style is clearer when you look at his concert works, simply because this is music he wanted to write at that particular time, rather than for whatever mood a film needed. Especially just the concertos follow a clear path through his ‘sound’, and it’s often at odds to what he was required to write as a film composer. 

[Mr. Gitz 85]

20 hours ago, Smeltington said:

Re: Azkaban, I always felt like after so much of the HP1 score was repeated in HP2, he probably felt obligated to give us something completely new. Of course Cuaron's input must have been a factor too, and I also think the film itself felt fresh and different and JW got inspired.

 

As for the eras of his work, it can be divided into BL (Before Ludlow) and AL (After Ludlow).   That was the pivotal moment, and things would never be the same!

forgive me but can you explain who Ludlow is?

 

The only Ludlow I can think of is the character from JP2

[Chen G. 3,949]

17 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

I had always put PoA's different sound down to Cuaron wanting something different, almost medieval sounding, instead of Columbus' orchestra/choir Hollywoodfest.

 

Its a combination of that, and Williams' own desire to keep things fresh: he usually just does it with the motivic language, but in a few places - Azkaban, The Lost World - he pretty much overhauls the entire soundscape (which, I think, was going a little overboard on his part).

 

What I repeatedly marvel at, is that its not just different themes or even a different sound: its also a different structure. The first two scores are built in the Lohengrin mould, where there's "good magic" music and "evil magic" music, and the good magic wins. There's less of that sense of juxtaposition in Azkaban.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

20 hours ago, ymenard said:

his gothical period (Fury, Dracula, TESB)

 

I'm not sure I'd call this his gothic "period", which suggests it's a phase he went through musically. Rather, I think Williams' understood all these films called for a gothic sound by their nature.

 

In any case, three of The Maestro's best scores.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

1 hour ago, Mr. Gitz said:

forgive me but can you explain who Ludlow is?

 

The only Ludlow I can think of is the character from JP2

There is a track in the score of The Lost World, that is called "Ludlow's Demise". And it contains an action motif, that Williams repeatedly used in his forthcoming scores. There is somewhere a youtube video about it with numerous quotes from other scores, where he uses it.

[scoreman36 68]

 

[King Mark 3,631]

He had a mid 90's phase where he did "serious dramas" I didn't like that much compared to the rest

 

Sleepers,Rosewood,Stepmom,Angela's Ashes...etc...

[Chen G. 3,949]

2 minutes ago, King Mark said:

He had a mid 90's phase where he did "serious dramas" I didn't like that much compared to the rest

 

I was thinking of that, too. But I think, whatever way we want to divide Williams' filmography, ultimately there was always a dichotomy between his more dramatic works, and his more swashbuckling ones. They almost always inhabited different sound worlds.

 

[King Mark 3,631]

I'll call it his "unfun" era.

 

Also from Jurassic Park onwards his action set pieces seem less thematic and structured

[Chen G. 3,949]

4 minutes ago, King Mark said:

Also from Jurassic Park onwards his action set pieces seem less thematic and structured

 

How so?

[King Mark 3,631]

Well something like T-Rex Rescue and Finale doesn't seem to have the narrative flow of something like Desert Chase from Raiders.

 

In my mind ,even back in 1993 I felt something had changed

[Edmilson 7,466]

Perhaps.

 

But I honestly prefer Williams' post-1997 action music anyway. Give me Visitor in San Diego, Tavington's Trap, The Quidditch Match (from all three Potters), Anderton's Great Escape, The Conveyor Belt (from both AOTC and Minority Report), The Intersection Scene, all the battle stuff from the prequels, etc., any day over the likes of Battle of Yavin.

[King Mark 3,631]

I don't . That's why I like The Airport (especially extended in the iso score) from DOD because i feel like it's an action cue like in his 80's scores

[Schilkeman 964]

Battle of Yavin is exceptional. It plays with melodic development in a very classical way, but Chase Through Coruscant is also a very structured cue despite having no melody whatsoever, and The Escape from TLJ is a fine example of motivic development. Maybe we can just split up his eras by Star Wars trilogies lol

[GerateWohl 4,370]

45 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Perhaps.

 

But I honestly prefer Williams' post-1997 action music anyway. Give me Visitor in San Diego, Tavington's Trap, The Quidditch Match (from all three Potters), Anderton's Great Escape, The Conveyor Belt (from both AOTC and Minority Report), The Intersection Scene, all the battle stuff from the prequels, etc., any day over the likes of Battle of Yavin.

I feel to a large degree the same. I adore Williams post-1997 action music. There is nothing like it.

 

On the other hand, if I was asked for his best action setpieces I would still probably still name The Battle of Hoth and The Desert Chase.

[Bespin 8,483]

I love John Williams's drama scores from the 90s. 'Sleepers' and 'Rosewood' have exceptionally underrated scores. Have you seen the movies? They are great too.

[Tydirium 1,167]

2 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Maybe we can just split up his eras by Star Wars trilogies lol

 

I was actually thinking of something like this yesterday, but in terms of covering both SW and IJ; you could call them Lucasfilm I (1977-1989), Lucasfilm II (1999-2008), and Lucasfilm III (2015-2023). Obviously there are years missing between them, but it was just interesting to me to notice that both SW and IJ have more or less been split up into three periods, each time starting with SW and then IJ coming shortly after.

[Thor 7,508]

Well, there is about 20 years of music prior to STAR WARS, so that would need to be accounted for too.

[Tydirium 1,167]

Just now, Thor said:

Well, there is about 20 years of music prior to STAR WARS, so that would need to be accounted for too.

 

Right of course; I would never propose that his entire work be defined by those Lucasfilm periods, but I just find it interesting as far as those films go.

[Chen G. 3,949]

2 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

but Chase Through Coruscant is also a very structured cue despite having no melody whatsoever,

 

It does have that kind of ostinato going on, though...

[Schilkeman 964]

21 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

It does have that kind of ostinato going on, though...

There's not enough melodic meat there to even call it motivic. It's straight up rhythmic ostinatos. So, like I said, no melody. The second main ostinato comes right from the drum break.

[Chen G. 3,949]

17 minutes ago, Schilkeman said:

There's not enough melodic meat there to even call it motivic.

 

Must... resist...urge...to...make...parallel...to...the...descent...into...Nibelheim... 

[Jay 37,369]

40 minutes ago, Tydirium said:

 

I was actually thinking of something like this yesterday, but in terms of covering both SW and IJ; you could call them Lucasfilm I (1977-1989), Lucasfilm II (1999-2008), and Lucasfilm III (2015-2023). Obviously there are years missing between them, but it was just interesting to me to notice that both SW and IJ have more or less been split up into three periods, each time starting with SW and then IJ coming shortly after.

 

Woah.  That's really interesting actually!  IJ1-3 does share a lot of musical DNA with SWOT.  Then IJ4 does share a lot in common with SWPT.  And DOD shares a lot in common with SWST. Cool!

[Schilkeman 964]

12 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Must... resist...urge...to...make...parallel...to...the...descent...into...Nibelheim... 

Must... resist...urge...to...explain... difference... between leitmotif... and motif. A motif can certainly be used as an ostinato, which is something Williams does frequently, but that's not what's happening here.

 

This question of eras is a tough one. Made all the more so by Williams' chameleon-like writing abilities. I find bits and pieces of all his styles throughout his career. But then there seem to be clear demarcations to me like Jaws, Empire of the Sun, Lost World, and Revenge of the Sith. It doesn't help that he wrote for multiple franchises over long periods of time, allowing his style to shift between entries, but still trying to be part of the sound world of the previous films. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

7 hours ago, Schilkeman said:

Must... resist...urge...to...explain... difference... between leitmotif... and motif. A motif can certainly be used as an ostinato, which is something Williams does frequently, but that's not what's happening here.

 

 

It was a joke...

 

And besides, a motif can be a rhythm...

[Schilkeman 964]

My original point was to contrast his older style of action writing, which was much more melodic, with his later style, based mostly on rhythmic motifs and ostinati, with a more free form and associative use of musical ideas.