Jerry Goldsmith's INCHON (1981) - 2024 Intrada 3-CD Complete

[Holko 9,529]

22 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

But what really pisses me off is the suggestion that Intrada deliberately withheld a better sounding source all these years, just so that they could dupe customers into buying yet another version.

You mean the sarcastic followup to my obviously sarcastic joke post?

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

The rest of his post didn’t really seem sarcastic, so I read his tone as differently than your post which was all about being silly and not because you actually thought those things.

 

Yavar

[JTN 2,037]

1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Would you have preferred they waited another couple of years? Would that have made it better?

No. I would prefer if they would give a free copy to everyone who bought the 2020 3-CD Set, that would be the faur thing to do, otherwise this is a deliberate cash-grab and giving the finger to their customers.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

4 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

And when the reverse recently happened for the two John Williams Jurassic Park scores, adding some new alternates and such (including previously unreleased film versions!) to the program making me tempted to double dip even though the 4CD set from just a few years earlier sounds almost as good and COULD have fit those alternates? I'm not throwing a public tantrum about that, even though I'm frustrated/annoyed I no longer have the most "definitive" release of those two scores that I thought I had.

 

I suspect this is a common dilemma for the labels and producers when they don't really know whether they've found the best possible elements, and they have a budget and effort they can put towards investigating sources.

 

When I heard on the podcast that the TLW alternate tracks weren't included in the box because there effectively wasn't much thought on what alternate material might be available (not lack of space, tape condition or any normal reason), it was a very rare moment when I went from 'cool tracks!' to actually being a bit miffed that these interesting alternate takes/mixes are now only available on another $30 set and not on the supposedly definitive box... and that's the reason... wtf?

 

But producers like Mike/Roger have to deal with us fans hounding at the door demanding a score now, sitting there with piles and piles of tape, not knowing what's on them and whether another pile over there might contain what they want, and with budgets and schedules calling. I'm not completely defending Intrada's thinking, but they made a mistake based on incorrect advice and... it happens.

[JTN 2,037]

44 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

It's unfortunate, and I certainly wish I didn't have to spend $30 + shipping on Inchon again, as I already spent full price on the 2006 and 2020 editions, myself. But I understand why it happened

You’re such an understanding and loyal customer when it comes to Intrada. I wish you understood those who purchased this Set because Intrada told us that that was The Best and Complete Edition. Only, as it turns out, it isn’t. So Intrada says fu everyone who bought the previos set. So forgive us if we are pissed off.

[HunterTech 994]

Given labels have been upfront about how approvals from studios can really fuck over when releases come out (we're seeing this with Nightbreed and Octopussy), plus the fact every previous edition of Inchon has sold well for them, I really don't know why we must ultimately remain angry that they're basically doing what they can to keep doing business. Could things have been handled better? Sure, but I at least appreciate the transparency versus baselessly speculating that re-releases like these are purposefully designed to swindle the consumer.

[JTN 2,037]

They didn’t purposefully swindle the customers, but the way they’re handling this situation is not professional, to say the least.

[HunterTech 994]

I know our sense of time has gotten severely warped in recent years, but is four years really too soon for this? Poor LLL had to deal with getting the better Die Hard materials after barely just repressing their previous edition of the score. It's kind of where the ill-conceived notion of labels deliberately withholding stuff came from for some, even.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

2 hours ago, JTW said:

No. I would prefer if they would give a free copy to everyone who bought the 2020 3-CD Set, that would be the faur thing to do, otherwise this is a deliberate cash-grab and giving the finger to their customers.

 

I'm sure at least 1000 people bought the 2020 3CD set over the 60 days it was available. Probably even more. Do you have the slightest idea how much money Intrada would lose if they did that? There is ZERO incentive. If everyone had the same sense of entitlement you do, Intrada would be far better off just keeping to themselves that they discovered a better sounding version was possible. It's not Intrada "giving the finger to their customers" in the slightest. It's Intrada wanting to make a better sounding version available to those who are interested, and replacing all the previous buyers' copies is not REMOTELY practical.

 

As for "deliberate cash-grab"... you're a bit confused about how businesses work, I guess?

 

In any case, it's funny that you think only customers of the 2020 edition are entitled to this new edition for free, since that's the edition you happened to buy. So I guess it's just tough luck for folks who skipped the 2020 edition because they already had the 2006 or 2013 edition, which were from the same sources? How come in 2020 you weren't demanding that Intrada send replacement copies to 2006 and 2013 purchasers?

 

2 hours ago, JTW said:

You’re such an understanding and loyal customer when it comes to Intrada. I wish you understood those who purchased this Set because Intrada told us that that was The Best and Complete Edition.

 

*I* purchased the 2020 set because Intrada told us that that was the best and most complete edition. And, at the time, it WAS! And furthermore as far as Intrada knew, that was going to be their final physical edition of the score because they were transitioning it to digital download only!

 

I simply understand that Intrada is a business and the people who run it are human beings who are passionate about film music like you or I, but they sometimes make mistakes and overlook things. There is not a single label out there that's perfect and never goofs on anything. Not LLL or Quartet or FSM and certainly not Varese Sarabande!

 

2 hours ago, JTW said:

Only, as it turns out, it isn’t. So Intrada says fu everyone who bought the previos set. So forgive us if we are pissed off.

 

Again, this is far from the first time this has happened from Intrada or ANY other label. So yeah, you can be annoyed, or frustrated. But to act publicly like Intrada set out to rip off their customers and simultaneously demand that they send out replacement copies to all purchasers of the 2020 edition is, frankly, unreasonable and out of touch with reality.

 

1 hour ago, JTW said:

They didn’t purposefully swindle the customers, but the way they’re handling this situation is not professional, to say the least.

 

According to you, the only professional way to handle this situation is for everyone at Intrada to slit their wrists by way of apology, figuratively speaking. Is there anything they could have done differently to satisfy you, besides sending you and every 2020 edition purchaser a free new 2024 3CD set?

 

 

2 hours ago, HunterTech said:

Given labels have been upfront about how approvals from studios can really fuck over when releases come out (we're seeing this with Nightbreed and Octopussy), plus the fact every previous edition of Inchon has sold well for them, I really don't know why we must ultimately remain angry that they're basically doing what they can to keep doing business. Could things have been handled better? Sure, but I at least appreciate the transparency versus baselessly speculating that re-releases like these are purposefully designed to swindle the consumer.

 

Exactly. All of the labels have been dealing with insane approval delays and such, moreso this past year than ever before. I think Inchon is either a rare title they have perpetuity rights on (see also: Tombstone) or, at the very least, a title which they have a *very* long-term license on. So if they've got a hole in their schedule brought about by other titles being long delayed, it makes sense that this one would pop up more frequently as it's more straightforward.

 

42 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

I know our sense of time has gotten severely warped in recent years, but is four years really too soon for this? Poor LLL had to deal with getting the better Die Hard materials after barely just repressing their previous edition of the score. It's kind of where the ill-conceived notion of labels deliberately withholding stuff came from for some, even.

 

Indeed, there have been far shorter spans of time in between editions of a score, just like the example you cite.

 

Yavar

[JTN 2,037]

Thanks for protecting Intrada's interests.

 

I purchased the 2020 Set, and I can't purchase this new Set. Intrada has screwed me and everyone who bought the 2020 Set because they told us that that was the definitive edition of the score. Now they are saying it isn't and are offering the same Set with better sound quality and expect us to buy it if we want the new definitive edition. That's false advertisement, and they are not doing anything to resolve the situation for those whom they convinced to buy the 2020 Set.

 

Yes, if a thousand people bought the 2020 Set, then yes, Intrada should provide all one thousand of them with a free goddamn copy of the 2024 Set!

 

Because that would be the fair and honest thing to do, no matter how much that costs them, because it cost me and all the other one thousand people our hard-earned money to pay for that Set to Intrada. They told us to buy that Set, and now they are telling us that that Set is no good anymore. Well that's just unacceptable, whether you agree with it or not.

 

And if you can't understand our position, then I don't have anything else to say to you, man, because either you're biased or you can't comprehend the situation. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

1 hour ago, HunterTech said:

I know our sense of time has gotten severely warped in recent years, but is four years really too soon for this?

 

I hope no time is too soon for this. I wouldn't want to miss out on eventual/potential proper SW releases just because someone decided it's too soon after Disney's umpteenth re-release of the old versions.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

42 minutes ago, JTW said:

Because that would be the fair and honest thing to do, no matter how much that costs them, because it cost me and all the other one thousand people our hard-earned money to pay for that Set to Intrada. They told us to buy that Set, and now they are telling us that that Set is no good anymore. Well that's just unacceptable, whether you agree with it or not.

 

Well firstly, 'no matter how much it costs them' could result in the business folding. I appreciate that the general vibe around here is that Intrada is the most incompetent company in the world, but 'at any cost' is a destructive way to see things.

 

Second, a reissue is not the same as saying the old one is 'no good anymore'. If you were happy with the sound of the 2020 one then what you have doesn't suddenly become a load of noisy rubbish just because a slightly better one emerges. When Mike re-did Home Alone I had a skim and decided whatever increase in quality there was, it was nowhere near noticeable enough to rebuy, yet it was enough for them to do another version.

 

Based on these responses, any label that found tapes in the one unreachable corner of the warehouse they hadn't looked, just wouldn't bother.

 

[JTN 2,037]

48 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

If you were happy with the sound of the 2020 one then what you have doesn't suddenly become a load of noisy rubbish just because a slightly better one emerges.

Yeah, only Intrada says that the new version has much better sound quality. So regardless of what we might think, they are stating that the new Set sounds better. Not slightly, significantly better.

 

 

 

And you can laugh all you want, @Yavar Moradi, but your attitude isn't helping Intrada's case one bit. On the contrary, it's making them look bad.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

1 hour ago, JTW said:

Thanks for protecting Intrada's interests.

 

Ouch, you got me! I'm such a disgusting shill because I live in reality and don't think Intrada is obligated to go out of business so that you and everyone else who bought Inchon in the past can have a free new copy.

 

1 hour ago, JTW said:

I purchased the 2020 Set, and I can't purchase this new Set.

 

If you can't because you don't have the disposable income in 2024 that you used to have in 2020, I'm sorry to hear that (and I've been there, man, not being able to buy new film music releases for years in a row because I didn't have the stable financial situation to afford it).

 

1 hour ago, JTW said:

Intrada has screwed me and everyone who bought the 2020 Set because Intrada told us that that was the definitive edition of the score. Now they are saying it isn't and are offering the same Set with better sound quality and expect us to buy it if we want the definitive edition. That's false advertisement, and they are not doing anything to resolve the situation for those whom they convinced to buy the 2020 Set.

Yes, if a thousand people bought the 2020 Set, then yes, Intrada should provide all one thousand of them with a free goddamn copy of the 2024 Set!

 

And this is the part of the story where most people start looking at you funny. This is just, simply speaking, nuts. If you were in Intrada's shoes you wouldn't do that in a million years.

 

There is absolutely ZERO basis for your claim of "false advertisement". Intrada didn't lie in 2020; as far as they knew that was the best the score was ever going to sound, because they were working from first generation elements. I'm pretty sure they DON'T expect everyone who bought the 2006/2013/2020 editions to re-buy now. But for anyone who loves the score enough and has the disposable income to afford a new edition, Intrada is bringing the title back into print sounding as good as it can sound. Since they now know that the backup safeties had better sound, if they just put out a straight reissue without any improvement at this juncture, THAT would be the dishonest move.

 

1 hour ago, JTW said:

Because that would be the fair and honest thing to do, no matter how much that costs them, because it cost me and all the other one thousand people our hard-earned money to pay for that Set to Intrada. They told us to buy that Set, and now they are telling us that that Set is no good anymore. Well that's just unacceptable, whether you agree with it or not.

 

It's unacceptable for you, and maybe a few other entitled people. And frankly, you can go ahead and keep crying about it I guess.

 

Most film music fans understand at this point that occasionally new editions will come out that are improvements over the old editions they have, and that they can CHOOSE to buy the new editions if they have the disposable income and feel so inclined. Intrada NEVER said their old set "is no good anymore". That is YOUR assessment. Plenty of us have been enjoying that set for years now... or the 2013 set...or the 2006 set.

 

I guess when new 4K editions of films come out from Hollywood studios, you send their home video departments angry letters telling them they owe you a new copy of the film, because when you bought a DVD copy they told you it was "the definitive edition" and now with the new release (from the same elements they've always had) it turns out they LIED to you and your old set is "no good anymore".

 

Good grief. With the messed up world we have, THIS is the crusade you choose to go on, I guess.

 

1 hour ago, JTW said:

And if you can't understand our position, then I don't have anything else to say to you, man, because either you're biased or you can't comprehend the situation. 

 

I have far more comprehension of the situation than you do, and a whole lot more perspective on it. Plenty of other people here have chimed in with reasonable takes on this situation. You're the one whose sense of entitlement has seemingly overwhelmed your ability to comprehend reality. But if you "don't have anything else to say" to me, then I guess I'll take that as a win. The JWFan board software literally just informed me at the bottom that you wrote another reply to me though, lol...

 

EDIT — there it is!

15 minutes ago, JTW said:

And you can laugh all you want, @Yavar Moradi, but your attitude isn't helping Intrada's case one bit. On the contrary, it's making them look bad.

 

All I see here is you making yourself look bad. So I'll keep laughing at you whenever you make another ridiculous and entitled post that says Intrada is "guilty of false advertisement" and is obligated to go out of business because they didn't test the mixed down Len Engel safeties sooner.

 

Yavar

[Faleel 5,359]

3 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

I guess when new 4K editions of films come out from Hollywood studios, you send their home video departments angry letters telling them they owe you a new copy of the film, because when you bought a DVD copy they told you it was "the definitive edition"

 

 

To be fair, a bit of a false equivalence, as 4K is not the same format as DVD.

 

All of the Inchon releases have been the same format, right?

[JTN 2,037]

14 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I have far more comprehension of the situation than you do, and a whole lot more perspective on it.

If you have so much comprehension of the situation as you're stating, then howecome you can't comprehend the anger of so many people who are rightfully mad about this situation? 

Howcome you're protecting a company that clearly re-released a Set merely four years after having released the same exact Set, and are not willing to send free copies to those who purchased the previous Set that they advertised as "the complete, remastered, definitive edition" of Inchon? And now they are even making jokes about how they are releasing the same set again, haha, and everyone who got the previous set, should buy this set if they want the best sound quality that they said four years ago about the other set as well. And you're defending this company shamelessly, trying to convince me and others that it's not a shameless act and we should be praising Intrada for re-releasing it. 

 

If as you say, you have more perspective on it than I or anyone else here on the forum, then it's all the more shameful that you're defending them, because you clearly don't know how hard it is for people like me to purchase any soundtrack CD, let alone double or in this particular case triple dip if I want to own this score in the best possible sound quality. So fu to Intrada for screwing their customers. It's our money and they should have more respect for their paying customers because without our money they would go bankrupt. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

7 minutes ago, JTW said:

this set if they want the best sound quality that they said four years ago about the other set as well.

 

And that was true back then.

[HunterTech 994]

Do we definitively know how expensive it is to transfer tapes? Because I know for the LLL HP box set that they only worked with digital sources for CoS and PoA, despite there existing analog recordings for them as well. So even if they had considered using the current source then, I'm not sure if their budget would've made it plausible to transfer every available tape at that time.

 

As for what I think of this new master as an unfamiliar listener: comparing the samples to the excerpts you can hear for the 2020 edition on the Qobuz website, it definitely sounds different, but I'm not sure about better. It's considerably brighter, which certainly gives it a bit more life, but at points to a degree that is kind of the polar opposite of the previous edition. The bass and mids feel a bit diminished as a result, but that honestly depends on the sample, because this nearly seems like Conan levels of inconsistency in terms of the track to track sound. Maybe I'd need to listen to the previous edition in full to get a concret idea, but suffice it to say that I'm not quite sure if this is the considerable upgrade the marketing is selling it as.

 

This has honestly made me more interested in actually listening to the score, since I guess soundtracks with this many differing releases tickle my fancy a little in terms of the audio itself. Plus it gives me another Goldsmith to consider purchasing, so the usual "it's there for those who missed it prior" spiel applies here as well (even if the digital release basically throws a wrench in that if you only care about the contents itself).

[JTN 2,037]

9 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

And that was true back then.

And it’s not true now, so everyone who bought that set, can go hump themselves. 

[HanFiredFirst 37]

I own the 2020 release of Inchon, and that's good enough for me.  I'm not actually a great fan of the score (much as I love JG) but that's not going to be changed by a slightly improved quality of sound.

 

I'd also like to point out that I'm not the least bit offended, upset, outraged or disappointed by Intrada putting out a 2024 release from elements they weren't aware of four years ago - it happens, and it simply means that for completists there's a chance to add a new version, for those who didn't buy any of the previous iterations there's an opportunity to buy a new release rather than paying exorbitant e-auction-site prices, and for those who aren't bothered then we simply scroll past. It's happened with Die Hard and Gorky Park, and as I love both scores I've been happy to add the new versions and contrast and compare - I certainly didn't feel anguish that I';d bought earlier releases.

 

Demanding that Intrada send out copies of their new release gratis to anyone who bought a previous version is, well, unhinged, unrealistic and frankly entitled.

[JTN 2,037]

5 hours ago, HunterTech said:

This has honestly made me more interested in actually listening to the score

Yes, me too, but I bought the previous set four years ago, and now I can’t buy this one, so instead of Intrada giving me a free copy since I bought the “definitive one” already, they’re telling me to buy the new one if I want to listen to it. Absolutely unacceptable marketing and customer service. These are two identical Sets physically, the biggest difference is the improved sound quality and a couple of different takes. Intrada should automatically provide those who have proof they have the 2020 Set, a “replacement” copy. That would be fair on their part. Period.

[Trope 527]

I don't fully understand how these limited releases work, but given the fact that some of Intrada's albums appear on streaming/digital download, it might be a nice compromise for them to send out a high-quality digital download of the new album for free to everyone who purchased the earlier edition? I'm sure there's some reason why this wouldn't work.

[crocodile 8,018]

Well, the previous edition was only available for a limited amount of time (45 days, was it?). It wasn't a "regular" Intrada release as such.

 

Karol

[JTN 2,037]

9 minutes ago, richiestudman said:

Demanding that Intrada send out copies of their new release gratis to anyone who bought a previous version is, well, unhinged, unrealistic and frankly entitled.

Couldn’t disagree more. It would be being entitled if I hadn’t bought the 2020 Set. But I did, day one.
 

7 minutes ago, Trope said:

I'm sure there's some reason why this wouldn't work.

Yes, they don’t want to, because of unknown reasons. But that’s the least what they should do. Imho they should send out replacement discs to those who ask for it and can confirm that they purchased the 2020 Set.

[HanFiredFirst 37]

6 minutes ago, JTW said:

Couldn’t disagree more. It would be being entitled if I hadn’t bought the 2020 Set. But I did, day one.

And you bought what was, at that time, the best version available. They've since uncovered different elements, and re-released it - and that's why I don't get your angst (or your ANGRY emoticon).

Your argument would lead to three possible outcomes, none of which are reasonable, logical or warranted:

1. If any soundtrack label discovers new elements, additional material, they send out a new version free of charge to anyone who has bought any earlier version. Economically unviable.

2. The label discovers new elements, or is given access to a newly discovered master, and for fear of upsetting anyone who owns a previous version, they don't release it.

3. As above, but the label simply sits on it for, what, ten years? So they don't risk upsetting people who bought the previous version four years ago.

Demanding that you get a new release because you bought an older release four years ago is, well, entitled.

[Jim Ware 526]

On 13/02/2024 at 10:58 PM, Stark said:

Slightly late, but does Mummy Returns’ expansion have issues like Mummy’s?

 

Yes - incorrect takes (Just an Oasis), incorrect assembly of takes (My First Bus Ride - neither version on the Intrada release is correct) and everything recorded in LA sounds like a rough mix. With a few exceptions, it duplicates the sound and content of one of bootlegs.

 

Thankfully it does not have any egregious phasing like Goldsmith's The Mummy (which also has incorrect takes in a few spots - Night Boarders for one).

[JTN 2,037]

They made customers believe that that Set was a complete and definitive edition of a score. Just because they have since unearthed a better version of it, isn’t warranting them to re-release the same exact Set with a different program and not even have the courtesy of offering replacement discs or at least a 50% discount to those who purchased that same Set in 2020. You don’t seem to get how unethical and frankly mean it is what they are doing. What about those who bought the set in 2020 and now they can’t buy the new one, and they now know that it’s an inferior version of the score and there is a better one available that they cannot purchase? F them, right? Because that’s exactly what Intrada is saying. That’s just mean and completely unacceptable.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

On 16/02/2024 at 9:52 AM, JTW said:

Yes, me too, but I bought the previous set four years ago, and now I can’t buy this one, so instead of Intrada giving me a free copy since I bought the “definitive one” already, they’re telling me to buy the new one if I want to listen to it. Absolutely unacceptable marketing and customer service.

 

Uh, no, that's literally the definition of how a business works, in an industry where knowing that you have the definitive elements for a score is probably a lot harder than we armchair commentators think.

 

I empathise that you can't afford this one, but this is no different to LLL reissuing Die Hard, Home Alone, Jurassics, etc, when they find a source they didn't know about before. Yes, there's a slight argument for whether Intrada could have been more dilligent in checking out all their sources, but how do you know LLL didn't make a similar judgement for one of theirs?

 

On 16/02/2024 at 10:14 AM, JTW said:

They made customers believe that that Set was a complete and definitive edition of that score.

 

Yes, because they thought it was as well at the time! You need to get it out of your head that Intrada did any of this deliberately and knowingly in 2020.

[JTN 2,037]

6 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Uh, no, that's literally the definition of how a business works

That’s not how an honest business is conducted. If you said about one of your products that it was a “complete and definitive version”, and later you re-release the same exact product with a better configuration, the least you should and can do is to offer EVERYONE who believed your marketing and bought the original product you told them was “the best it can be”, to compensate them in some way, otherwise you’re simply deceiving them and that’s how bad business works.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Well now we're just restating the same arguments over and over again.

 

If you accuse Intrada of 'bad business' then you have to accuse LLL of it multiple times. It's just unfortunately how this business works sometimes. To what extent was LLL's original Hook a deception? Should they send me a free copy of that just because I got the original? Of course not. They worked with what they had at the time.

[JTN 2,037]

3 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

To what extent was LLL's original Hook a deception?

To NO extent. Totally different Sets. Different design, different amount of music, different liner notes, different number of discs, different sound quality.
Intrada’s two Inchon Sets are physically identical. Same design, same amount of music, same number of discs, almost identical liner notes.

[HunterTech 994]

So you'd rather they spend money on making all of that slightly different? That would definitely be bad business.

[JTN 2,037]

No. I’d rather they conducted an honest business and when reselling the same exact product with a different configuration, compensate those who due to believing their original marketing bought the original “definitive” product and now can’t buy the same exact product with a better configuration. That would be the honest and fair thing to do on Intrada’s part.

[HunterTech 994]

So you're demanding a capitalistic business effectively lose money because it'd be the honorable thing to do. Good luck.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

As one of the most vociferous critics of Intrada on this forum, I have to agree with @Yavar Moradi here. Of course any implication that it is just a sly strategy to hold back the definitive version of a score in order to make collectors buy more than one of their releases is pure madness. This is what these labels do, they produce the best sounding and most comprehensive release that is possible, depending on the source material and restoration techniques that is available at the time. So, how does it matter, whether the current release is just a slight or a considerable improvement on the prior release? Any complaint from collectors in one of these cases (which there are plenty of) comes from their desire to own the best sounding version available. There is simply no reproach to make towards the labels.

 

The claim of a free copy is not completely incomprehensible to me (after all, I wrote something like that in this thread), but you can't really be serious to expect Intrada to do that without suffering grave economical disadvantages from it. Next question would be: where to draw the line? Should we all get a free copy of the new Hook, in case we have bought the 2012 release? I'm sure any of the special labels would send out all of their releases to anyone who wants them for free if at the same time it would be raining 100 dollar bills at their warehouses, but that won't happen.

 

However, if one of these labels produces something that is lacking in any way, although the source material and restoration techniques they have access to would have allowed for a more definitive release, you can indeed criticize that. That's basically what I do. To me, the 2020 version becomes obsolete now, mainly due to its shortcomings. The improvement between the 2020 and the 2024 release might be bigger than it should have been if they had done a more meticulous work back then.

[HanFiredFirst 37]

4 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

To me, the 2020 version becomes obsolete now, mainly due to its shortcomings. The improvement between the 2020 and the 2024 release might be bigger than it should have been if they had done a more meticulous work back then.

I'm not sure I get the argument that an earlier release becomes obsolete just because there's a newer, maybe better, maybe improved, version available. For example, I prefer the sound and album assembly from Intrada's Gorky Park to the newer LLL release - and the same with ST: Wrath of Khan where I prefer the sound and assembly from the FSM rather than the LLL issue.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

 

1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

Any complaint from collectors in one of these cases (which there are plenty of) comes from their desire to own the best sounding version available. There is simply no reproach to make towards the labels.

 

Indeed, and I'd suggest that any time a label decides to bring a score back into print, they have a pretty horrible decsion to make. Do they take the opportunity to make some improvements, or ignore those improvements to avoid pissing off all of their prior customers. I'd actually suggest there's no winning in this situation, and it's a direct result of technology improving and the ability to locate the best elements changes day by day.

 

Clearly in this case Intrada made a mistake of a scope we don't have enough information to truly know, and I suspect that the more extreme reactions are an unfortunate side effect of not being in a position to buy this new one. However, a person's situation with disposable income doesn't make this any different from multiple improved reissues where a label thought they had previously done the 'definitive' version.

 

And yes, where criticism is warranted, like you I will call them out, such as the recent comments on editorial mistakes and where some producers may lack refined skills. However, if we want the labels to continue as a profitable business in this unbelievably specialist market, with materials that aren't just there on a hard drive, sometimes the situation just... sucks.

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

2 hours ago, JTW said:

And it’s not true now, so everyone who bought that set, can go hump themselves. 

 

…is what Einstein said to Newton.

 

2 hours ago, JTW said:

What about those who bought the set in 2020 and now they can’t buy the new one, and they now know that it’s an inferior version of the score and there is a better one available that they cannot purchase? F them, right?

 

What about someone who bought soundtrack A from them because they like it, and then later B was released which they like even better, but now they didn't have any money left to buy that as well? What about those who could never afford any of the releases? Surely Intrada should have given them free copies of their entire catalogue?

 

2 hours ago, JTW said:

To NO extent. Totally different Sets. Different design, different amount of music, different liner notes, different number of discs,

 

So the previous release was even far more inferior than in Inchon's case. Shouldn't that make people even more entitled to a replacement? I'm looking forward to having Sony send me a free copy of an eventual complete TPM release because I bought the OST and the UE. Hang on, they should have given me a free copy of the OST remaster because I bought those… and then they should have refunded me for buying the OST because I'd now have the remaster and apparently it's inferior to the OST, so I shouldn't have to pay for that…

 

2 hours ago, JTW said:

different sound quality.

 

Isn't that exactly what you're criticising Intrada for?

[JTN 2,037]

 

2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Isn't that exactly what you're criticising Intrada for?

I wrote down in several comments what I'm criticizing Intrada for, you can read them. And see below:

4 hours ago, JTW said:

HOOK: Totally different Sets. Different design, different amount of music, different liner notes, different number of discs, different sound quality.
Intrada’s two Inchon Sets are physically identical. Same design, same amount of music, same number of discs, almost identical liner notes.

The only, major difference is the sound quality, but that alone makes the situation mean on Intrada's part, because they only changed that one aspect of the release, not changing everything else like what LLL did with HOOK, which made it a must-have even for those who bought the previous 2-CD version. I never for a second thought or felt like being cheated by LLL, or that I was double dipping. I and many others are feeling it now with Intrada's Inchon fiasco. They either should send people replacements discs or provide them with a link for a digital download of the new soundtrack. Otherwise they are being unfair to those customers who have already purchased the same exact 3-CD release in 2020, only, as it turns out, with an inferior sound quality. It's outrageous what Intrada is doing, and if they won't remedy this situation, shame on them. 

Inchon 2020 Front Cover

 

Inchon 2020 Back Cover

 

Inchon 2024 Front Cover

 

Inchon 2024 Back Cover

 

 

 

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

29 minutes ago, JTW said:

2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Isn't that exactly what you're criticising Intrada for?

I wrote down in several comments what I'm criticizing Intrada for, you can read them.

 

Yes, and the main one was that the old release supposedly turned into crap overnight because the newer one sounds better (making it physically *not* identical).

[HunterTech 994]

I know we give Intrada shit for their laziness, but given how many editions of one score can have very different liner notes that either don't transfer over or is abbreviated/edited if done so, isn't it refreshing that largely the same writing is able to stay consistent from release to release? I certainly thought so with Young Sherlock, since it meant I could still appreciate that interview they did with Broughton from the previous edition on their latest one.

 

Besides, it can't be exactly the same presentation wise if the catalog number changes .

 

Actually, there is a legit difference: the artwork is higher quality than 600x600 now! So even that was technically not the best it could've been .

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

19 hours ago, Faleel said:

To be fair, a bit of a false equivalence, as 4K is not the same format as DVD.

All of the Inchon releases have been the same format, right?

 

Yes they have, and I appreciate your nuance. I don't really agree it's a false equivalence because it's still a case of a Hollywood studio (or home video label) later putting out an improved edition of a film which renders the earlier edition obsolete and inferior. That's the case JTW is angry about here and I regard format change as rather incidental to that. But fine, if you don't want to jump formats there are plenty of examples of a DVD or Blu-ray being released as the BEST version of it available on home video at that time, and then a couple years later a full expensive restoration of the film elements is undertaken and lo and behold, a new BEST version comes out in the same format. I don't think purchasers of the previous edition, now rendered inferior, are entitled to free copies of the new edition.

 

I have over a decade and a half of experience in the music industry. Not really in the world of film music but rather classical music, as a buyer for the retail operations of performing arts organizations (3.5 years with the L.A. Philharmonic, most of that at the Walt Disney Concert Hall's LA Phil Store, and now going on 11 seasons with the Santa Fe Opera Shop). I also managed Joel's Classical Shop in Houston (now moved and renamed as Classical Music of Spring, because the original founder/owner passed away) for over two years, seeing it through the tricky period of its transition to new ownership. Believe me when I tell you I've seen it all, in terms of ALL the major classical music labels (and a fair number of smaller independent ones too) reissuing, remastering, repackaging, recombining, revisiting, etc. And yes, some of those were new SACD editions of things that had only been on CD before, or Blu-ray Audio editions of things only on CD or SACD before. (Almost always the SACD editions were hybrids that also had a regular CD layer, and oftentimes the Blu-ray Audio editions would include separate CD copies which were also based on the rebuilt master that was the same source for the Blu-ray Audio disc.) But the vast, vast majority were just new editions on CD, frequently claiming improved sound and sometimes featuring never-before-released bonus tracks and such.

 

And if some folks in film music land think that Inchon or Die Hard or Predator or The Blue Max have been reissued too many times in new-and-improved editions, and get resentful of their old editions being rendered inferior, WOW do I hope these disgruntled persons never get into the wide world of classical music because their brains will completely short-circuit. Basically, the music collector market dictates this! It's a rare and special even for a film score to get newly recorded; very few film scores have been recorded twice much less three times like say Vertigo. But there are literally HUNDREDS of recordings of the Beethoven symphonies. New ones get produced and released on album every. single. year. And yet even though say the Osmo Vanska Beethoven cycle on BIS is a spectacular modern multichannel recording in state of the art sound released on hybrid SACD for a very reasonable price, and his interpretation of the symphonies is so fresh and exciting it made them come alive again to the ears of this poor jaded classical music fan who's heard enough of the Beethoven symphonies (except maybe the super underrated fourth) to last a lifetime already... Deutsche Grammophon is still going to keep releasing new and improved editions of their classic Karajan cycle (actually Karajan recorded a full Beethoven cycle at least three times!) over and over, for the rest of time until our species destroys itself.

 

When a recording is popular and keeps selling, it will keep getting reissued (as long as licensing is still possible -- I realize that sometimes it isn't, in our world, because a licensor stops cooperating as with Warner Bros. a few years ago). And if improvements are possible, a label is likely to do them because it will ensure better sales. Simple as that. But with JTW, it's like he's never encountered this phenomenon before -- even though he participated in it with the 2020 edition of Inchon -- Intrada's fourth release of the score in their long history with it!

 

On 15/02/2024 at 11:55 AM, JTW said:

I wish you understood those who purchased this Set because Intrada told us that that was The Best and Complete Edition. Only, as it turns out, it isn’t. So Intrada says fu everyone who bought the previos set. So forgive us if we are pissed off.

21 hours ago, JTW said:

Intrada has screwed me and everyone who bought the 2020 Set because they told us that that was the definitive edition of the score. Now they are saying it isn't and are offering the same Set with better sound quality and expect us to buy it if we want the new definitive edition. That's false advertisement, and they are not doing anything to resolve the situation for those whom they convinced to buy the 2020 Set. Yes, if a thousand people bought the 2020 Set, then yes, Intrada should provide all one thousand of them with a free goddamn copy of the 2024 Set!

Because that would be the fair and honest thing to do, no matter how much that costs them, because it cost me and all the other one thousand people our hard-earned money to pay for that Set to Intrada. They told us to buy that Set, and now they are telling us that that Set is no good anymore. Well that's just unacceptable, whether you agree with it or not.

9 hours ago, JTW said:

I bought the previous set four years ago, and now I can’t buy this one, so instead of Intrada giving me a free copy since I bought the “definitive one” already, they’re telling me to buy the new one if I want to listen to it. Absolutely unacceptable marketing and customer service. These are two identical Sets physically, the biggest difference is the improved sound quality and a couple of different takes. Intrada should automatically provide those who have proof they have the 2020 Set, a “replacement” copy. That would be fair on their part. Period.

 

So I got a question for you, @JTW -- you were happy enough at the time with Intrada putting out their 2020 3CD edition of the score. You bought it, secure in the knowledge that it was "definitive", and you believe only 2020 edition purchasers are entitled to a free copy of the new 2024 edition from Intrada.

 

...why don't purchasers of the previous 2006/2013 edition matter to you? When the 2006 2CD edition came out, Intrada acted like that was the definitive-as-possible last word on the score, to the point that when they reissued it seven years later in 2013, it actually was a wholly identical master, with only the slightest changes in packaging! But in 2020 you didn't want to torch Intrada, even though they were rendering all copies customers had purchased of the 2006 and 2013 editions (and I might add, their original 1988 expansion) "obsolete". 2020 was the first time they redid the edits and everything in high resolution, but they were using the same source as the 2006/2013 edition. So did they have an obligation to send copies of the new edition to all previous customers back then? No, you don't care about that because you weren't among those customers (as I was!) -- you were just among the new customers purely benefitting from the new edition. And you're only so very upset now because now it's happened to you. Interesting.

 

Yavar

[Trope 527]

I think to summarise this debate, we can reflect on the duality of man, and say that while Yavar and Marian have convinced our minds with their objective analysis, astute observations, and cold logic, JTW has won our hearts as a victim of the money-hungry music market which, if allowed free reign, will suck every last penny from the pockets of loyal customers. 

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

To be clear, in your case @Trope I'm not laughing at you for being ridiculous, but because your sense of humor amused me.

 

14 hours ago, JTW said:

These are two identical Sets physically, the biggest difference is the improved sound quality and a couple of different takes. Intrada should automatically provide those who have proof they have the 2020 Set, a “replacement” copy. That would be fair on their part. Period.

14 hours ago, JTW said:

That’s not how an honest business is conducted. If you said about one of your products that it was a “complete and definitive version”, and later you re-release the same exact product with a better configuration, the least you should and can do is to offer EVERYONE who believed your marketing and bought the original product you told them was “the best it can be”, to compensate them in some way, otherwise you’re simply deceiving them and that’s how bad business works.

14 hours ago, JTW said:

To NO extent. Totally different Sets. Different design, different amount of music, different liner notes, different number of discs, different sound quality.
Intrada’s two Inchon Sets are physically identical. Same design, same amount of music, same number of discs, almost identical liner notes.

 

How do you know that about the liner notes already without reading them? But what really confuses me is... are you angry because this is the "same"/"identical" product, or because it's been "impoved"/made "better"? Because they both can't be true at once. The 2006 and 2013 editions are virtually identical. Not just the same number of discs but same number of tracks, same sound quality, same notes, and almost the same packaging. I do recall some people were upset in 2013 that Intrada was "lowering the value" of their edition which had been strictly limited to 1500 copies which sold out in like two days at the time.

 

14 hours ago, JTW said:

No. I’d rather they conducted an honest business and when reselling the same exact product with a different configuration, compensate those who due to believing their original marketing bought the original “definitive” product and now can’t buy the same exact product with a better configuration. That would be the honest and fair thing to do on Intrada’s part.

 

Again, you seem to be contradicting yourself. Either it's the same product (as the 2013 one was, essentially, compared to the 2006) or it's a new product "with a better configuration" which you're upset about being better than the one you have (which itself was at the time a new and improved product with a better configuration, compared to the earlier editions). Which is it? In your later post where you provide back cover images it's clear that Disc 3 of the 2024 edition has five additional tracks when compared against the Disc 3 from 2020. So it seems clear to me that it's not "identical", even apart from the matter of sound.

 

Yavar

 

 

[Andy 4,141]

I listened to the 2013 album program today and quite enjoyed it!  I think we’re it attached to a film I cared about, this would be a no brainer. But at any rate, I went ahead and ordered the new edition as the 2020 one passed me by. 

[JTN 2,037]

23 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

why don't purchasers of the previous 2006/2013 edition matter to you?

They do.

 

 

23 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

But in 2020 you didn't want to torch Intrada

No I didn’t, because

1. I didn’t know about the situation.

2. If I had, I would have kept my mouth shut unlike you, and would have been happy with my copy.

3. The 2020 edition was an improvement in more ways than “just” re-releasing the same music with better sound quality on the same amount of discs, with the same design.
But now that you have shed light on the matter, I do feel for those who had bought the releases prior to the 2020 edition.

 

Do you?

 

 

16 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

So it seems clear to me that it's not "identical", even apart from the matter of sound.

The 2020 release has 154 minutes (2 hours 34 minutes) of music. The 2024 release has 162,5 minutes (2 hours 42,5 minutes) of music. An 8 and a half minute difference in the case of a two and a half hour release is almost nothing. So don’t tell me that the runtimes of the two releases aren’t identical, because they practically are.
The difference is mostly alternate takes, not previously unreleased music. 
 

Even Intrada knows how ridiculous this situation is, no wonder they are trying to make a joke about it even in their advertisement. 

[ManofDestiny 71]

If my memory correct, Intrada did the same thing for The Rocketeer.

Why nobody complain back than? Is it because no one care Jame Horner?

Only Goldsmith matter?

[JTN 2,037]

I'm sure a lot of people did complain about the Rocketeer as well. Or The Last Starfighter.

But I don't get what another fiasco has to do with this one? We're talking about Inchon, not Rocketeer. Other bad instances don't make this one any less bad. On the contrary, they show that this has happened before, and it keeps happening, and Intrada keeps doing this to their customers over and over again, letting customers believe that a product of theirs is complete, definitive, with the best possible sound quality, only to some years later announce that they have unearthed another master with much better sound quality, re-release the same music with the same exact art design, and won't give those who bought the previous release, a free copy, free replacement discs or a free digital download. That's awful business on Intrada's part.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

3 hours ago, ManofDestiny said:

If my memory correct, Intrada did the same thing for The Rocketeer.

Why nobody complain back than? Is it because no one care Jame Horner?

Only Goldsmith matter?

People did complain back then at FSM.

[Jay 37,372]

5 hours ago, JTW said:

The difference is mostly alternate takes, not previously unreleased music. 

 

It's maybe worth noting that the 1988 edition premiered 20 seconds of music in "The Tanks" that disappeared from the 2006, 2013, and 2020 editions. It's finally back now in the 2024 edition.

 

5 hours ago, JTW said:

Interesting… Until yesterday the first post in this thread was the official announcement for the 2020 release. Today it’s gone and has been replaced by the new announcement.

 

This is simply not true. I created this thread with the text you see in it now and have never changed it. The 2020 edition had its own thread