Villeneuve's DUNE

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I've finally seen it - wanted to earlier, but I couldn't get good places before. Even today the IMAX was full.

 

I liked the first one, but wasn't fully convinced by it. At the cinema, I was very impressed by it at first, but as it went on, I started thinking about all the stuff that was missing, and my first rewatch at home emphasised these shortcomings. There's much to like about it for sure, but leaving out both the banquet (very difficult to put on film, surely, but the one sequence I was most excited to see) and the entire Jessica intrigue plot made it feel rather stale and overlong - adding 10 or 15 minutes with that stuff would probably have made it feel shorter (cf. TTT's EE). Rewatching it recently made me appreciate it more again, but I still think it could be better. I also thought part 1's cinematography was good, but sub par for Villeneuve.

 

I loved part 2 today. I felt it brought across the themes of the book very well, while also giving more substance to the characters, who I remember as mostly plot devices from the book (i.e. quite the opposite of part 1). The cast was great; Chalamet and Zendaya were both very strong and anchored the film, and Ferguson was great as usual as both concerned mother and terrifying Bene Gesserit. The film refreshingly managed to avoid most Hollywood tropes, and what little humour was added mostly worked well by staying true to the characters and situations (something that Peter Jackson increasingly failed at as his LOTR films progressed). I loved the cinematography this time around; some scenes were even reminiscent of Deakins's Blade Runner 2049.

 

And even the score had its moments and only a few bothering moments (fewer than part 1). It still often seemed too loud, but that was just in keeping with the film's sound design (more half of the time it was hard to tell apart the score from the effects anyway). Curiously though one of the score's few moments of silence is one that I thought could have used more music: The silence during the build up of the sandworm riding sequence (and the lack of score through most of it even when the silence was over) was clearly a deliberate choice, and it did work, but I think some tense underscore buildup could have given the whole sequence more of an impact without taking away the "silence before the storm" aspect. Then again, the overall style of the score is very much at odds with what I'm describing, so perhaps leaving the sequence unscored was for the best. Ultimately, it's still nothing I'd be interested in listening to outside the film, and I wish these films had scores that were actually musically interesting - though I admit that I find it hard to imagine the films with significantly different music. I'd also forgotten how much the main theme/motif thingy owes to Once Upon a Time in the West.

 

One thing though: It was too loud! Though that's probably not the film's fault but the cinema's for turning their IMAX equipment up to 13. It was louder than a rock concert. And some of the room's wall attachments kept clattering whenever the subwoofers became active. I don't mind loud films when it works (Dunkirk in the same cinema was physically straining, but that's part of what made it so effective), but this was definitely more than would have been appropriate.

[Jay 37,364]

 

[Edmilson 7,456]

Zimmer has said a bit too much.

 

Dune 3 is coming, confirms Hans Zimmer.

[MaxMovieMan 271]

Zimmer will have a lot of time to come up with ideas for the third film considering Denis probably won’t make this for another five years or so. I’m honestly so excited for this film. More than I was for the first two movies. The second Dune book is where the message of the series truly comes into view.

[Tallguy 3,389]

42 minutes ago, MaxMovieMan said:

The second Dune book is where the message of the series truly comes into view.

 

We'll see how he does. Right now I think the ending of part 2 kind of nerfed the impact of the second book. IMHO.

[MaxMovieMan 271]

He definitely made the message more obvious. I think part of the reason it worked so well in the books is because it really is a complete heel-turn. You go from the heroic ending of the first book to the complete tragedy in the beginning of the second. Paul isn’t as twisted in the book as he is in the movie. Herbert essentially wrote Messiah to make the point he was trying to make clearer. He felt he didn’t do a good enough job. So that’s probably why Denis made it more obvious that Paul is turning into a sinister character. The third movie won’t have as much of the shock value that the books had I don’t think but I still believe that Denis really knows what he’s doing. He has a plan.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,529]

6 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Zimmer has said a bit too much.

 

Dune 3 is coming, confirms Hans Zimmer.

 

Well, that's £13.99 he's just saved me, right there.

[Edmilson 7,456]

Legendary and WBD’s Dune Part Two earned another $17.6 million (-38%) despite losing its Imax and most of its PLF screens to the Ghostbusters sequel. Yeah, Dune 2 did fine this weekend (it has earned $124 million worldwide in Imax thus far, their eighth-biggest title ever), but once Godzilla X Kong arrives, that’s bad news for Legendary and WBD. Oh… wait…

 

Denis Villeneuve’s sci-fi sequel has now doubled the $108 million lifetime cume of Dune and passed the $219 million total of Wonka. With another $31 million earned overseas, it has now earned $575 million worldwide. It should finish with over/under $680 million worldwide on a $190 million budget.

 

From Scott Mendelson's paid newsletter on Substack, but you can find the numbers here:

 

https://www.the-numbers.com/weekend-box-office-chart

[MaxMovieMan 271]

Hopefully Denis will think Messiah is better than Part Two so we’re able to see the movie🤣

[badbu 123]

[Edmilson 7,456]

Villeneuve's response to the "controversy": Whoops!

Warner's response: Whoopsie!

 

[Tallguy 3,389]

Hey! Why aren't you tying these Fremen who are obviously based on Middle Eastern cultures more closely to their influences?

 

Well, you know at the end of the movie they wage a holy war across the known universe driven by a fanatical faith in a messiah and are the most feared slaughterers in the history of the universe?

 

Oh. So... Can we keep them just kind of generically "foreign / non-white"? Is that OK? That Zendaya lady, she could fit that, right?

[Chen G. 3,949]

There's no winning with these people...

[Naïve Old Fart 9,529]

They're picking gnat shit out of pepper.

Who gives a fuck what they think.

[Schilkeman 964]

“If the novel is so undeniably anchored in this place, why is it so unpalatable to employ MENA performers and creatives?”

 

Seems like a valid criticism to me.

[Chen G. 3,949]

That, had they cast MENA actors, the same people would make the opposite criticism: "Look at how they hired MENA people only to put them in roles that ridicule Muslim religious fervour (Stilgar), demonise it (pretty much all the others), fetishize them and put a white saviour at their head."

[Schilkeman 964]

19 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

That, had they cast MENA actors, the same people would make the opposite criticism: "Look at how they hired MENA people only to put them in roles that ridicule Muslim religious fervour (Stilgar), demonise it (pretty much all the others), fetishize them and put a white saviour at their head."

That's a strawman. If the characters are properly represented in the film, but the material contains racist stereotypes, then the issue is with the materiel, not the film adapting it. That is what "they" would criticize. It would be an ignorant reviewer indeed who would lob accusations of the White Savior trope at a series so clearly criticizing it, but I don't argue with hypothetical "thems," and I see nothing in this article to disagree with.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Hey, I mean I'm MENA of a sort...

 

To me, all the Arabic and Farsi terms are mostly just a little... I don't want to say "silly" but just something one has to try and get used to and look past, because its pretty funny to see Herbert (and, by extension, Denis) use these terms which I'm sure read as very exotic-sounding to him...while to me at least some of them could crop-up in daily conversation...

 

"Usul" and "Mahdi" are pretty commonplace Arabic words... "Kwizats Haderach" is a kind of bastardised Hebrew for saying "hopping." It all gets pretty hokey...

[Naïve Old Fart 9,529]

7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

That, had they cast MENA actors, the same people would make the opposite criticism: "Look at how they hired MENA people only to put them in roles that ridicule Muslim religious fervour (Stilgar), demonise it (pretty much all the others), fetishize them and put a white saviour at their head."

 

Yup. Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb.

[Edmilson 7,456]

I mean, it's not wrong

 

[TolkienSS 407]

On 27/03/2024 at 6:47 PM, Edmilson said:

Villeneuve's response to the "controversy": Whoops!

Warner's response: Whoopsie!

 

 

My response: had they cast Middle Eastern and North African people for the desert dwellers, they'd have been accused of stereotypical racism.

Whoopsie

[crocodile 8,013]

11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

That, had they cast MENA actors, the same people would make the opposite criticism: "Look at how they hired MENA people only to put them in roles that ridicule Muslim religious fervour (Stilgar), demonise it (pretty much all the others), fetishize them and put a white saviour at their head."

That is probably very true. It reminds me a bit of the situation with Ancient One in Doctor Strange in which director tried to avoid Asian stereotypes/charicatures by casting a white female in the role and ended up being accused of whitewashing. Whether his approached was right, it's a fair debate. But it proves that there's no avoiding criticism one way or another.

 

Karol

[MaxMovieMan 271]

People look for too much stuff to complain about these days.

[Mephariel 451]

23 hours ago, crocodile said:

That is probably very true. It reminds me a bit of the situation with Ancient One in Doctor Strange in which director tried to avoid Asian stereotypes/charicatures by casting a white female in the role and ended up being accused of whitewashing. Whether his approached was right, it's a fair debate. But it proves that there's no avoiding criticism one way or another.

 

Karol

 

I thought the Doctor Strange choice was more odd. If Jackie Chan could play a stereotypical kung fu master in The Karate Kid, I am sure they could have casted a Asian to be a mystical leader. I mean, they did it anyway with Wong and Mordo (stereotypical black mystic). 

 

Regarding Dune, I think since the story took place on another planet, Villeneuve got it right for having a mixture of ethnicities. With that said, I do get the point about casting more MENA actors. Yes, if they did that, there will still be criticism, but that is not really the point. The point is, at least MENA actors would have an opportunity to be in a world-class Hollywood film. 

[Edmilson 7,456]

Spielberg really liked the movie. I wonder what he thought of the Zimmer score.

 

Steven Spielberg Tells Denis Villeneuve That ‘Dune 2’ Is ‘One of the Most Brilliant Science-Fiction Films I’ve Ever Seen’

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

6 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Steven Spielberg Tells Denis Villeneuve That ‘Dune 2’ Is ‘One of the Most Brilliant Science-Fiction Films I’ve Ever Seen’

 

Quote

“This is a desert-loving story, but for such a desert-loving film there is such a yearning for water in this movie,” Spielberg said. “For all the sand you have in this film, it’s really about water. The sacred waters that are yearning for green meadows and the blue water of life. You film the desert to resemble an ocean, a sea. The sandworms were like sea serpents. And that scene surfing the sandworms is one of the greatest things I have ever seen. Ever! But you made the desert look like a liquid.”

(emphasis mine)

 

That's indeed one thing that struck me as extremely done already in the first film, because it seemed so natural and powerful without being an intrusive effect.

[Edmilson 7,456]

Dune 2 has made almost $630 million at the box office:

 

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl68715265/?ref_=bo_we_table_3

[A24 4,333]

 

Nobody can escape from Star Wars.

[Romão 2,274]

As expected, Dune Messiah is in development

 

https://variety.com/2024/film/news/dune-3-denis-villeneuve-legendary-nuclear-war-1235960990/

[Edmilson 7,456]

Can't believe Warners didn't take this merchandising opportunity! 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

All this arabic in the movie is pretty funny to me.

 

And its Lisan A-Ghaib - "Tongue from the Without."

[Brónach 1,302]

On 28/03/2024 at 3:46 PM, Naïve Old Fart said:

 

Yup. Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb.

 

some days you don't know where the hamza goes in the word!

[A24 4,333]

 

 

 

"David Lynch’s adaptation was disappointing. It was missing the power of Herbert’s novel. Villeneuve’s films are much more convincing. The characters are sketched out, they are very identifiable. It’s pure cinema. I speak regularly to Denis, filmmaker to filmmaker. We record our conversations, like Trufaut and Hitchcock." - James Cameron

[Naïve Old Fart 9,529]

Who gives a single shit what some director, who was past his prime 17 years ago, thinks about anything?

DARK FATE, anyone?

[Edmilson 7,456]

5 hours ago, A24 said:

We record our conversations, like Trufaut and Hitchcock."

 

8 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Who gives a single shit what some director, who was past his prime 17 years ago, thinks about anything?

DARK FATE, anyone?

You're just jealous because you never received a compliment from James Cameron 

[Jay 37,364]

James Cameron past his prime?

 

Avatar and Avatar 2 are the biggest hits of his career!

 

He didn't direct Dark Fate.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,529]

He was the "inspiration" behind DF, he co-wrote the story, and he co-produced it.

He's just as guilty as the rest of them.

If box office is anything to go by, then, yes, he's still successful.

Artistically, though, he peaked with THE ABYSS.

 

[Jay 37,364]

I like all his movies.  Well, I never saw the Piranha one

[Edmilson 7,456]

I hated what they did to John Connor in Dark Fate. They really did him dirty on that movie, only to replace him with a bland character and a new renamed Skynet. And what the heck was that awful Terminator getting married and having kids or whatever?

 

Never finished that piece of crap, and never will. Screw this franchise. I'll act like T2 is the canon ending of the Terminator saga and everything that came later was a nightmare Sarah Connor had while they were hiding in Mexico.

[Jay 37,364]

I've never seen it, I meant I like all the films Cameron has directed

 

It is depressing that every single time anyone makes another Terminator movie, they ignore every sequel that came before it and do another direct sequel to T2, and that they are all bad films in different ways.  At least the Sarah Connor Chronicles TV series was decent, and the ending of T3 was kinda cool.  Salvation and Genisys though, yikes.

[Edmilson 7,456]

I kinda like Salvation more than T3 tbh. Salvation is flawed but I like that it at least tried to do something different. From T3 I love the truck chase, but aside from that that movie is crap.

 

Genisys is pure and complete dogshit.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,529]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

I like all his movies.  Well, I never saw the Piranha one

 

PIRANHA 2: FLYING KILLERS is not at all bad, actually.

The female lead is a proto-Ripley, in both looks, and character.

 

 

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

I hated what they did to John Connor in Dark Fate. They really did him dirty on that movie...

Agreed.

Did they try to get Furlong back, for DF?

It would have been at least watchable, with him.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

... everything that came later was a nightmare Sarah Connor had while they were hiding in Mexico.

 

Wh... Where's Mexico?

[Schilkeman 964]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

James Cameron past his prime?

Yeah, I'm not even really a fan of him, but I see no artistic slippage between Avatar and anything else he's made. The Abyss is probably his best movie, but I'm partial to The Terminator.

[A24 4,333]

James Cameron wrote and produced Battle Angel Alita, which I like (and I didn't expect that). 

[Edmilson 7,456]

49 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Agreed.

Did they try to get Furlong back, for DF?

It would have been at least watchable, with him.

 

I remember reading they brought him back and de-aged him digitally to make him look like a teenager, but I'm not sure.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Ironically, The Way of Water is the opposite of Dune: While the latter is one of the rare occasions of Hollywood showing us, how devastating a victory can feel, the former goes full pro war à la 'to crush the enemy is the only solution to this'. Ideologically, these films are quite literally like water and fire (or let's say water and earth; Avatar and Oppenheimer are like water and fire).

[Edmilson 7,456]

15 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Ideologically, these films are quite literally like water and fire (or let's say water and earth; Avatar and Oppenheimer are like water and fire).

With Top Gun: Maverick representing the air!

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

36 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

Ideologically, these films are quite literally like water and fire (or let's say water and earth; Avatar and Oppenheimer are like water and fire).

 

Well, Frank Herbert kind of took something of the tropes of Edgar Rice Burroughs (man comes to alien desert planet, befriend the local noble savages and leads them against a technologically-superior but tyrannical foe) and inverted them, and Cameron's films owe a lot of Burroughs.

[Jay 37,364]

New Villeneuve interview:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/17/movies/denis-villeneuve-dune-part-two.html