publicist 4,643 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Jay said: Pub, have you ever listened to the 90s Varese CD with headphones on? The strings being hard left is off-putting. Anyway, I'm not sure why you've decided to write multiple posts defending some old CD today when a nice new one is available for only 20 bucks. Everyone wins. I have the corrected one. I am defending nothing, just noting the usual american (and fan) hysteria about something that if viewed with a healthy distance may result in a hard look at the necessity to shell out another 20$ for something you find pleasant for maybe four or five cues (me and 'The Cowboys') and find the old release is more than sufficient in terms of sound, presentation or cover. I know i'm running against windmills here, just saying there were far worse releases out there, 'The Reivers' for instance, where i would gladly buy twice for a better sound. 'The Cowboys' not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jay 37,479 Posted June 20, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 20, 2018 But the "corrected" one was also incorrect. Both times, they took the LCR and mixed it down to stereo incorrectly. The first time they put the Center channel in the left, the Right channel in the center, and the Left channel in the right. For the "corrected" disc, they put the Left channel in the left, the Right channel in the center, and the Center channel in the right. So they at least got one channel right that time. bollemanneke, Brundlefly and Jurassic Shark 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,991 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 27 minutes ago, publicist said: I have the corrected one. I am defending nothing, just noting the usual american (and fan) hysteria about something that if viewed with a healthy distance may result in a hard look at the necessity to shell out another 20$ for something you find pleasant for maybe four or five cues (me and 'The Cowboys') and find the old release is more than sufficient in terms of sound, presentation or cover. I know i'm running against windmills here, just saying there were far worse releases out there, 'The Reivers' for instance, where i would gladly buy twice for a better sound. 'The Cowboys' not so much. There ain't a "necessity" to buy anything in this day and age, where almost everything is available online for free (both legally and not), so of course it's not a matter of utmost importance. There are certainly more pressing issues around the world than The Cowboys 1994 sound... Having said that, I can have only admiration for the work of Mike Matessino, especially his ethic of doing things right and with a great amount of care and love for the subject. Again, if you're content with previous editions of any score you already own and you want to pass, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. But I don't certainly need to be convinced by your arguments about the old release to decide to pay 20$ for this new release of The Cowboys Otherwise, it sounds like another "I'm not buying this watermelon!" kind of attitude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrScratch 294 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Wow, just finding out about this release today! Ordered immediately. So, is the alternate Main Title not on this new release? And did Williams actually write that? (Just kidding) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,479 Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 13 hours ago, Jay said: I think you'll like it! I already do i have for nearly 45 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,479 Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 I know, I meant I think you'll like the new presentation specifically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 The alternate Main Title is missing though. airmanjerm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,479 Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 What? But that was on the previous release! airmanjerm and Smeltington 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Five Tones 302 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Even the 320 sound samples are night and day to the '94, that's a proper, spatially realistic mix without the "artifact" feel of the earlier release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,479 Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 YES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewy 2,414 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Jay said: The first time they put the Center channel in the left, the Right channel in the center, and the Left channel in the right. For the "corrected" disc, they put the Left channel in the left, the Right channel in the center, and the Center channel in the right. So they at least got one channel right that time. And this kind of stuff still happens in 2018 for Star Wars reissues...jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,479 Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 It proves that it does not come down to the label releasing the music, but the person doing the work. Chewy and bollemanneke 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 55 minutes ago, Jay said: Yes 27 minutes ago, Jay said: YES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Ordered and to ship today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,627 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 21 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said: That would be neat, based on this one Harry Sukman cue on the old The Cowboys album that I do like quite a bit. I'm not sure how high it is on any label's priority list as the TV series was apparently very short lived...only 12 episodes according to IMDb. Interestingly a few of the boys from the film apparently reprised their roles in the series. Annoyingly, I've been unable to find even a clip of this show. Or even an image. It's about as obscure as CONVOY. So yeah, an impossible prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,479 Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 It would be nice if WB made the show available to stream, or put it out on some kind of budget DVD / BD. And while it would be great if a specialty label could do a release of music of the show, getting Sukman's proposed main title back out there as well as premiering the TV arrangement of Williams' themes the final show used, I doubt it would sell enough for any label to consider investing in it. Who knows what music elements from the show even remain in the vaults anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,627 Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 It would have been a great bonus disc in this set. Even I might have picked it up then. Á la latching PETE'N'TILLIE on to STANLEY & IRIS. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phbart 609 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Listening to the samples. I wish Jaws could have a chance to sound just as good as this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. A. Ron 1,747 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 6 hours ago, Thor said: Even I might have picked it up then. But this is the only John Williams approved release of the score. By your own standards, this is one you should have/pick up! 2 hours ago, phbart said: Listening to the samples. I wish Jaws could have a chance to sound just as good as this... But... but... they're literally mastered by the same guy! In what way does the Intrada Jaws not sound good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,595 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Compared to the quality and weird mastering of the archived tapes (which we know of from the liner notes), Jaws sounds phenomenal. Compared to CE3K or this, which sound like they were recorded three days ago, it's only fine. A. A. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,627 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Muldoon said: But this is the only John Williams approved release of the score. By your own standards, this is one you should have/pick up! Whether it is approved or not is irrelevant. This is produced by Robert Townson, and is seemingly C&C. It does not contain a careful selection and sequencing by the composer himself. The OST does, providing the 'produced by John Williams' note is correct. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Thor said: It does not contain a careful selection and sequencing by the composer himself. You could say JW carefully selected the whole score, and sequenced it in chronological order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, Thor said: Whether it is approved or not is irrelevant. This is produced by Robert Townson, and is seemingly C&C. It does not contain a careful selection and sequencing by the composer himself. The OST does, providing the 'produced by John Williams' note is correct. If he produced the OST he would have surely aproved it, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,627 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 As long as an album is presented C&C, it does not matter how involved the composer is. Whether he was given a phone call and notified, whether he approved it or even if he was involved in the production of the album (like Goldenthal on BATMAN FOREVER). No careful selection and restructuring of the material has taken place, hence it disqualifies entirely for my use. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I assume you could roughly recreate the OST from the new release, thereby getting the benefit of the improved sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,627 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: I assume you could roughly recreate the OST from the new release, thereby getting the benefit of the improved sound. Probably. But as I said earlier, I think the sound on the OST is absolutely fine, even with the reversed channels. If it had been a "RAIN MAN situation", I would probably have considered it. I've received a digital promo of this, however, and am curious to finally hear it with the 'correct' mix, just for comparison's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Focus on the bass to mid-range in the samples, and you'll discover new details. It's also worth keeping in mind that JW is a very modest person, so when he created the OST with a running time of less than 30 minutes there's probably a lot more which would qualify for inclusion, quality-wise. And the decision to end the OST with Summer's Over instead of End Title and End Cast and/or Exit Music was a strange one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,627 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: It's also worth keeping in mind that JW is a very modest person, so when he created the OST with a running time of less than 30 minutes there's probably a lot more which would qualify for inclusion, quality-wise. And the decision to end the OST with Summer's Over instead of End Title and End Cast and/or Exit Music was a strange one. I love that ending! Allows a more bittersweet end note than the more typical end title. As for the duration of the OST, no doubt reuse fees played an important role in the selecion of the cues. But I loved how these limitations "forced" the producer/composer to reconceptualize within that frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,991 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Matessino stated pretty clearly the 1994 album wasn't actually produced or supervised by JW himself: Quote The fact is the Deluxe Edition is the first and only John Williams' approved version of The Cowboys. The 1994 release was done without his involvement, was incorrectly mixed, at the wrong speed with the wrong takes and made-up titles, with a track called "Overture" in the middle of the program and another track by a different composer erroneously added, making it actually a 28 minute album which, sorry to say, had basically nothing correct about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Thor said: I love that ending! Allows a more bittersweet end note than the more typical end title. To me, it sounds like a play-up to a grand finale... which never comes. Yavar Moradi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,627 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, TownerFan said: Matessino stated pretty clearly the 1994 album wasn't actually produced or supervised by JW himself: So are we to assume the 'produced by John Williams' note on the CD was one of several "errors"? That's interesting. Due to the selection and sequencing of cues, I still think it works great. It's a good work by whoever did it. I don't share Matessino's disparaging remarks about the album at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,991 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Perhaps it was a contractual obligation, I don't know. Crediting sometimes is mostly a legal matter. However, I trust Mike's knowledge and insight in these matters (not to mention his first-hand collaboration with JW himself). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,627 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Sure, I trust him too. I just think the totality of his disparaging remarks about the OST is at least partially a PR ploy to get people to buy the new album. I don't think it deserves to be dismissed entirely like that. Ricard and Jurassic Shark 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,595 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I don't think he would outright lie about JW's involvement for PR - if he really was involved, he'd have just said the old OST had many problems or that JW was probably overruled (he wouldn't put another composer's cue on his album, that's 100%) and was unhappy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 14 minutes ago, Thor said: So are we to assume the 'produced by John Williams' note on the CD was one of several "errors"? That's interesting. Due to the selection and sequencing of cues, I still think it works great. It's a good work by whoever did it. I don't share Matessino's disparaging remarks about the album at all. I guess they just extrapolated his production credits for the score recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TownerFan 4,991 Posted June 21, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Thor said: Sure, I trust him too. I just think the totality of his disparaging remarks about the OST is at least partially a PR ploy to get people to buy the new album. I don't think it deserves to be dismissed entirely like that. Sorry, but Mike is one of the most intellectually honest people I ever talked with. He doesn't need to work out any marketing ploy to convince people to buy new releases he worked on. He earned trust and respect from listeners and industry people because of his work. His own opinions about the 1994 release are a result of his own work ethic and methodology, which is aimed for the highest standard possibile in terms of production value (presentation, sound quality, liner notes, packaging, etc.). Everyone is entitled of course to be happy and satisfied with the 1994 release, there's nothing wrong about it. Even MM himself recognized "how little we knew back then" when it came to producing soundtrack releases. Taikomochi, crumbs, Ricard and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,627 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 That's fine. I just disagree with his remarks. It's like we're supposed to believe that the totality of all those "errors" make the album superflous and best forgotten in the light of this new "shining" soundtrack presentation. I think this does not represent it well, and is rather unfair. But obviously, his personal experience with the production of the 1994 CD differs from my own joy of listening to the album for 20 years. Incidentally, Matessino is mentioned nowhere in the liner notes of the 1994 CD. Do we know his full capacity on this release? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 He made similar statements when Home Alone 2 got its first expanded release. And I'm sure these are big issues for him since he's been working on getting every detail right on the new releases, but for the regular JWFanner it's maybe not that noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,807 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Finally ordered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,367 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Just imagine what he must think about those new Star Wars reissues! A. A. Ron and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,991 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 30 minutes ago, Thor said: That's fine. I just disagree with his remarks. It's like we're supposed to believe that the totality of all those "errors" make the album superflous and best forgotten in the light of this new "shining" soundtrack presentation. I think this does not represent it well, and is rather unfair. But obviously, his personal experience with the production of the 1994 CD differs from my own joy of listening to the album for 20 years. It's not an issue of absolute rights or wrongs, of course. If you're happy and satisfied with the old release, so be it. Mike simply stated all the reasons why the new release trumps the old one (and the bootleg LP as well) from his own specific and knowledgeable perspective. If you're not convinced enough, well, I'm sure nobody could and surely he wouldn't debate with anyone's listening preferences. I don't think Mike was involved with the 1994 release, btw. It was produced and assembled by Bob Townson. I'm sure Townson recognized there was enough room for improvement to justify a new release rebuilt from the ground up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Reads unread posts Hangs self A. A. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 RIP @Disco Stu Wojo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,479 Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: the decision to end the OST with Summer's Over instead of End Title and End Cast and/or Exit Music was a strange one. The track called "Summer's Over" on the old Varese CD IS the End Title - or at least, an alternate, unused End Title that only featured the Paternal Theme briefly before shifting to the Trail and Cowboys themes. The End Title used in the film opens with a longer version of the Paternal theme, then briefly features Trail and Cowboys themes before coming back to a big statement of the Paternal Theme. The unused End Title appears on the new CD in the bonus track area, while the used End Title closes the main program. The REAL Summer's Over, the cue from the body of the main score, appears on this release for the first time - it wasn't on the 1994 Varese CD nor the old bootleg LP. See here: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/28620-the-cowboys-1972-new-2018-varese-deluxe-edition/&do=findComment&comment=1495975 Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phbart 609 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 9 hours ago, Muldoon said: But... but... they're literally mastered by the same guy! In what way does the Intrada Jaws not sound good? Oh yes, I forgot we have to spell things here sometimes. I said Jaws doesn't sound good COMPARED TO COWBOYS, which was recorded some 3 years earlier, and not because it was a mastering problem. 9 hours ago, Holko said: Compared to the quality and weird mastering of the archived tapes (which we know of from the liner notes), Jaws sounds phenomenal. Compared to CE3K or this, which sound like they were recorded three days ago, it's only fine. That's why I said I wished it could have a CHANCE to sound as good as Cowboys. Intrada's Jaws sounds superb, given what MM had in hands to work with. The curious thing is that Jaws was recorded between both films (Cowboys and CE3K), so it should sound just as good as both. Even Family Plot, which was recorded the exact same way as Jaws was (three channels, but not in the LCR configuration) sounds much better than Jaws. Hell, even Duel, which also got the same engineering, sounds better too. Holko and Yavar Moradi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Are you sure you think Family Plot sounds better than Jaws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,479 Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 1st generation elements were stored properly by WB for The Cowboys and by Sony for CE3K, while Universal didn't properly store Jaws' 1st gen elements and later dubs had to be used instead. That's the difference. bollemanneke and Yavar Moradi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,227 Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I guess something similar happened to the 1st gen elements of Family Plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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