Intrada presents Spacecamp

[Faleel 5,358]

He, he...I'm with you, Datameister, but I'm gonna keep responding as long as others do.

And they're gonna keep responding as long as you do. See how that works? All you have to do is just...stop. Because, as you pointed out, no one's opinions are going to change here, and it's not as if anyone's saying anything new. You've explained your opinions in full detail many times over, and you're clearly not confused about what the majority thinks. There's no benefit to continuing the conversation in a thread that was supposed to be about something else altogether.

As an example of this "just stop" technique, I hereby refuse to respond to any debate about the content of this post I've just written. I do, however, reserve the right to continue quoting myself ad infinitum.

Well, I'm not the one questioning the other. I'm merely responding to accusations, questions and various other arguments related to my taste here. I'm the recipient, not the sender. I think the power to "stop this", if it is so bothersome for you to read, is in the other court.

Then again, I don't really see the harm in going off-topic for a while. What else is there related to SPACECAMP that you so want to discuss at this time?

Thor, i think you should make a seperate thread for this discussion if your going to, as you said: keep responding as long as others do.

[Thor 7,515]

A debate comes and dies by itself. I see no reason to move it to another thread. But if the powers-that-be want to do so, by all means, go ahead. I think it's pretty close to dying now, though, so that you can get back to discussing Kate Capshaw's bottom or whatever it was.

[Henry B 50]

It is a contradiction in the myriad cases in which the album was compromised for financial or technical reasons. See my Return of the Jedi example. As for Inception, I'm not sure 50 minutes was Zimmer's wish because he put up unreleased cues on his web site.

That's true, but they were mostly ad hoc bits. It seems to me that you're beginning to argue for a scenario where composers DON'T think in terms of listening experience when they assemble albums, and that they're always at the mercy of technical and financial limitations. Is that it? If so, that's certainly a first. My point is that YES, there are always financial or technical concerns in a soundtrack-producing situation, but the composer/producer's wishes and desire to present a listening experience transcend that. If they had wanted C&C presentations, they would have done everything in their power to do that, not waste time on thematic recaps, the insertion of suites (Elfman's "Ape Suites" from POTA, for example), chronological jumbling and other such issues. I quote ol' Miklos Rozsa, when Royal S Brown asked about this:

RSB: How do you regard the recording of film music separately from the film? /.../ What do you think a film music recording should be? Should it be all of the cues, should it be rearranged?

MR: It should be rearranged. It should be rearranged for listening. Without seeing something, it's a different experience.

RSB: Do you prefer a concert suite or do you prefer simply arranging the cues as they were written in a different order?

MR: It could be both.

I'm not arguing that it's always a case of either composers' wishes or technical limitations. It just seems like you have a tendency to ignore individual circumstances and vouch for the album format no matter what.

Yeah, makes sense. I guess a simpler way of asking this is: do you never hear music in fragmented settings and react to it or want to hear it again?

Sure. Mostly outside film music, though.

If I hear a piece of music in a film that I like, I might say "hey, that's nice". But then I quickly forget about it. And it definitely has no bearing on the soundtrack, should I pick that up. As long as that works as it is, I have no particular need for that single track that I liked once upon a time.

Yes. Sorry about the melodramatic analogy. I should emphasize, though, that I'm not drawn to C&C because of the film. Honestly, I don't watch a whole lot of films, so in most cases my memories of the film while listening to something C&C are distant or nonexistent. It really is about the music for me, with the music's role in the film being a secondary interest. (I do think it's interesting to note how scores are tailored to images...

I think that's very interesting too, and in fact wrote my Ph.D. dissertation on it. But it's only part of my FILM interest (music as a tool in film) and has no relation to my soundtrack listening.

The point is that C&C, while admittedly sometimes influenced by the film, is usually about the music itself for me.

Well yes, it IS music, but if you subscribe to the C&C idelogy, you also subscribe to the structures from its previous medium, the film. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter what they did with it. You're letting the FILM dictate how the music should be presented, even when the film is long gone and you're only left with the music itself.

The film was part of it from the beginning. Tinkering with the chronology and making a few clumsy edits (in the days before digital finesse anyway) doesn't change the reality that, in most cases, music is written, second by second, as an accompaniment to film. The good composers can match the film and make the music listenable too. But editing the music beat by beat to conform to some nebulous standard of musicality would result in a sonic mess, so we're left with fragments that are still products of the film, just rearranged. That's why I much prefer albums that are newly recorded arrangements, like Jaws and many of Williams' earlier scores. These new recordings allow the composer to iron out any musical compromises brought on by the film timings (get rid of that funky 5/4 measure?) and expand on ideas. But Williams' recent OSTs are taken straight from the film recordings, and, when digitally chopped up, just sound fake. Anyway, we can expand the example beyond Williams and conclude that since most soundtrack albums are drawn from the film recordings and are not edited on a beat by beat basis, they are absolutely still connected to the film in some way.

[Thor 7,515]

I'm not arguing that it's always a case of either composers' wishes or technical limitations. It just seems like you have a tendency to ignore individual circumstances and vouch for the album format no matter what.

I don't ignore individual circumstances. I just think that the composer's creative wishes and choices override that or operate within them. I vouch for the album format 99% of the time, but every once in a blue moon, a soundtrack comes along that works well in C&C, the recent ROCKY IV by Vince di Cola being a good example. So I'm not totally dogmatic.

The film was part of it from the beginning. Tinkering with the chronology and making a few clumsy edits (in the days before digital finesse anyway) doesn't change the reality that, in most cases, music is written, second by second, as an accompaniment to film.

Still, the music can work as any other music once arranged properly for audio format. But only then, IMO.

Anyway, we can expand the example beyond Williams and conclude that since most soundtrack albums are drawn from the film recordings and are not edited on a beat by beat basis, they are absolutely still connected to the film in some way.

Only in the compositions themselves (which I have never argued for changing). The challenge (for the producer/composer) is only in PICKING OUT the compositions they find musically worthy and putting them in an order that makes musically sense. Again, I'm not talking about changing the compositions themselves, of course, only the structure and relation between them.

[OneBuckFilms 323]

Presentation?!? I'm afraid you lost me there, pal.

Presentation: The way you present, and constantly reiterate your position. You know the reactions you will get, and yet you persist. It is simply insanity to perform the same experiment multiple times and excpect a different result.

Since you are not insane, you therefore expect the SAME result.

Therefore, this is a fishing expedition for argumentative response.

This is the absolute last response you will hear from me on either the album presentation issue or your conduct with regards to constantly raising the subject.

[Thor 7,515]

Presentation: The way you present, and constantly reiterate your position. You know the reactions you will get, and yet you persist. It is simply insanity to perform the same experiment multiple times and excpect a different result.

Perhaps it's worth bearing in mind that I never intended to "fish" for responses, as you call it, when I replied in this thread. I only posted here to say how happy I was with the Intrada release. That's it. The responses only came along because YOU (and others) started to question my taste - which really is an absurd thing to do in the first place.

I didn't raise this subject, Onebuckfilms, you guys did. I only participated once it was raised.

[ST-321 4]

My copy came today! I haven't had the chance to listen yet.

[Joe Brausam 214]

We're still talking about this?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Mine shipped!!!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Mine shipped!!!

[King Mark 3,631]

They probably put me on the bottom of the shipping pile for criticizing it wasn't expanded

[Koray Savas 2,251]

[Incanus 5,715]

Mine shipped as well!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

They probably put me on the bottom of the shipping pile for criticizing it wasn't expanded

Thor works there too.

[Frank Vincent 234]

The other thread has gotten way out of hand, so I'm posting this message from Douglas Fake from Intrada here:

I just returned from a very pleasant out of town trip, opened up a copy of SPACECAMP to enjoy and heard a minor but none-the-less annoying jump by a few frames during track 12, about 30 seconds in. Eeehhh! Being a perfectionist, I'm contacting our manufacturer (which on this project was Sony) and asking for a new master for approval as well as replacement discs. The process will probably take about 4 weeks or so. We'll mail out replacement copies free of charge to anyone who needs one. We'll even pay the postage. Just give us time to get everything squared away. Some people have said they don't notice any error. But I do. Anyway, the moment we receive the new pressings, I will spotlight it here. You don't even have to return anything. Just holler after I post the message and we'll send you out a new copy. It's that simple. (Though nothing else in this wacky business ever really seems to be simple.)

[King Mark 3,631]

Yeah, I guess it would be stupid to pass up a "no hassle" replacement in this case

[indy4 155]

Wait, so the music skips forward in a track?

[King Mark 3,631]

That is what is said .Essentially it's the same as a scratched c.d.

[Datameister 2,044]

Absolutely awesome of them to offer the free replacement. I mean, that's what I would hope they'd do, but still, it's nice to see it actually happen. Yet another reason to love these labels.

[King Mark 3,631]

Will they shipped a skipping copy for now or I have to wait a month for my c.d.?

[Datameister 2,044]

I assume they're still shipping the faulty copies. That way people can still enjoy the rest of the music in the mean time. If they were actually recalling the discs and not shipping out any more of them, they'd have mentioned that.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

So what are y'all gonna do with your faulty copies?

[King Mark 3,631]

sell them on ebay?

[SF1_freeze 131]

Still waiting for the shippment notice. Ok i ordered when there were just 300 available, so that's probably the bottom of the shipping pile

[A24 4,345]

I realize this is probably difficult to grasp for most people here, but if you consider the fact - and I've said this a few times now - that my journey into soundtracks came from listening to prog rock concept albums and instrumental electronic music (NOT by falling in love with scores through the films themselves), then perhaps it's easier to understand. It's certainly a minority approach (at least around here), but no less valid.

I have the same background, Thor. I listened to concept albums like Close To The edge, Relayer, Tales Of Topographic Oceans, Dark Side Of The Moon, Wish You Were Here, Tales of Mistery and Imagination: Edgar Allan Poe, Albedo 0.39, Beaubourg, The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, Tubular Bells, Ommadawn, ... Most of these concept albums have the structure of classical music. The idea behind it was that the listener had to listen to the whole album, as if he was listening to a classical symphony. Of course, it was possible to listen to an individual song, but because these tracks were a part of a bigger whole, the experience was so much better when one listened to the album from A to Z. That took time, you really had to sit down for it and concentrate on the music in order to live to the 'grand' experience. The 'journey' lasted about 40 minutes which is approximately the length of many symphonies. That people actually did this shows the kind of respect they were willing to give to music. It's no wonder that the seventies were the golden age of pop music.

When I got into the soundtracks of John Williams, it treated it no different, I listened to the albums from A to Z. I listened to the opening, the journey, the contemplation, the climax and the homecoming. Like you, I expect soundtracks to have a symphonic structure. One long story that goes through a round of emotions rather than a bunch of individual tracks. And now I'm back to my first post in this thread. I don't know whether it's the philosophy of arranging albums that has changed (a CD can hold about 78 minutes of music so that's what we'll give them so people won't feel ripped) or whether it's the music itself that has changed. Maybe nowadays films are scored less structured, less 'symphonically'. When I listen to Williams' recent work, it no longer tells a story on its own. It no longer creates its own universe. I hear tracks, seemingy put on a CD without much thought or idea. Maybe it's me. Maybe I lost my ability to listen to music in a certain way.

Alex

[Incanus 5,715]

This happened with the Collector's Choice Witches of Eastwick re-issue as well and I got a good copy for free from the internet store I ordered from after I had emailed them and informed them of the defect in the pressing and only after they had sent me 2 faulty copies.

It is great that they will send a replacement to everyone who has received a faulty copy. And if it is really as simple as "Just holler after I post the message and we'll send you out a new copy." then I am even happier.

[Thor 7,515]

Thanks, Alex, it's very rare that I meet someone who approach soundtracks the same way that I do, and it warms the heart to see that there are others.

I would argue, though, that Williams still produces fine soundtrack albums, even though they aren't as radical as the wonderful rerecording reconceptualizations of the 70's. HARRY POTTER 3, MEMOIRS OF A GEISHA, MUNICH etc. are all very much wonderful "journeys" even though they aren't as jampacked with musical highlights as the older ones.

[Quintus 5,399]

Thor, people here have no issues with the reasons you prefer shorter original albums over the more expanded stuff. In fact one or two share your sentiments. It's the fact that you endlessly bang on about it, on and on and on and on... Hearing you constantly, yet effortlessly repeat yourself over and over really is tiresome and monotonous, indeed - I think I speak for many on this. Couple that irritation with your self-righteous, sermoness attitude (oft highlighted with your annoying usage of CAPITAL LETTERS) and you have all the ingredients there to really put people off from conversing with you. Will you please just change the record? If not, why not create another thread which is more specific to your cause and carry on the discussion there?

This is the Spacecamp thread - you've hijacked it long enough with your broken record babbling. Fuck off somewhere else and give us all a break.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I approve!

[Marian Schedenig 8,206]

Being a perfectionist, I'm contacting our manufacturer (which on this project was Sony) and asking for a new master for approval as well as replacement discs. The process will probably take about 4 weeks or so. We'll mail out replacement copies free of charge to anyone who needs one. We'll even pay the postage. Just give us time to get everything squared away. Some people have said they don't notice any error. But I do. Anyway, the moment we receive the new pressings, I will spotlight it here.

That's great. It's what customers should expect, but it's still great.

You don't even have to return anything. Just holler after I post the message and we'll send you out a new copy. It's that simple. (Though nothing else in this wacky business ever really seems to be simple.)

And it's even better that it should be that simple. I understand that not sending back the original copies makes it easier/cheaper for them. But it also means that eBay will be flooded with slightly faulty pressings soon (not that there's anything wrong with that - why should any of us hold on to a faulty backup copy). I guess by the time I get my replacement (I'm still waiting for the shipping notice for the original), the average price for a Spacecamp CD will be down to $10.

[Thor 7,515]

Thor, people here have no issues with the reasons you prefer shorter original albums over the more expanded stuff. In fact one or two share your sentiments. It's the fact that you endlessly bang on about it, on and on and on and on...

You are, of course, aware that the "endlessly banging on and on" is solely the result of you guys continually questioning my taste? Stop questioning my taste, and I'll stop responding. Easy as that. Or do you think it's OK for people to criticize me, but I'm not allowed to defend myself when attacked?

If people here TRULY had no issues with the reasons I preferred arranged albums, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

And please, no need for offensive language.

[Quintus 5,399]

You confuse "issues" with peoples genuine curiosity and jump down their throats for daring to be inquisitive. Maybe you're insecure, or paranoid, or both. It appears you have "issues".

But whatever, you bore be to tears and now it's time for me to press the ignore function. Have fun on planet Thor.

[Thor 7,515]

You confuse "issues" with peoples genuine curiosity and jump down their throats for daring to be inquisitive. Maybe you're insecure, or paranoid, or both. It appears you have "issues".

But whatever, you bore be to tears and now it's time for me to press the [bold]ignore[/bold] function.

Actually, I've replied to every single query - even the angry ones - calmly and constructively. Any other meaning is something YOU read into it. Perhaps you should look at your own insecurity? You clearly have a very low tolerance level for opposing viewpoints. Can't be easy for you out there in the big world.

[A24 4,345]

He's got a point. The only person who acted venomously is you, Quint. And if people, as you claim, are put off by Thor (why would you say something so malicious?) then why do they keep conversing with him?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

He's got a point. The only person who acted venomously is you, Quint. And if people, as you claim, are put off by Thor (why would you say something so malicious?) then why do they keep conversing with him?

He'll get over it.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Clearly not a hung parliament on this issue.

[fommes 153]

The Thor effect:

If anything it seems that people for some reason get annoyed at the idea that some score fans might prefer a humble (75min) ost to a complete recording set - as if it goes against the very fabric of what makes a true score enthusiast! I mean, what's the big deal here? Can someone please explain? I don't see Thor criticising others for preferring complete releases over shorter albums, as he does; so why the witch-hunt?

Like I said, I don't visit FSM, so if the dude has a history of being a twat over there then I'll keep stum and say no more, but if that isn't the case then what's the problem with him saying what he likes? Because at the moment, it's others who look like twats.

Thor, people here have no issues with the reasons you prefer shorter original albums over the more expanded stuff. In fact one or two share your sentiments. It's the fact that you endlessly bang on about it, on and on and on and on... Hearing you constantly, yet effortlessly repeat yourself over and over really is tiresome and monotonous, indeed - I think I speak for many on this. Couple that irritation with your self-righteous, sermoness attitude (oft highlighted with your annoying usage of CAPITAL LETTERS) and you have all the ingredients there to really put people off from conversing with you. Will you please just change the record? If not, why not create another thread which is more specific to your cause and carry on the discussion there?

This is the Spacecamp thread - you've hijacked it long enough with your broken record babbling. Fuck off somewhere else and give us all a break.

Still convinced that people can't stand your C&C posts because you have a taste for shorter albums, Thor?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You guys should stop arguing or I'm gonna have to moderate and it ain't gonna be pretty...

I have to partially agree with Quint on this one. I've read the debates before, so I mainly stayed out of the questioning but continued to read everyone's long discussions. Then around page 5 or something I just couldn't anymore and started skipping every post that wasn't about SpaceCamp. This thing has gone on way too long.

[Andy 4,139]

So ANYWAYS,

Doug Fake has acknowledged an audio glitch in the pressing of the SpaceCamp discs, and it looks like they will be issuing replacements.

Doug's statement

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I imagine there will be lots of good hearts and people will give out/sell cheap their faulty copies to people who missed out. It's not like 3,000 new people are getting them.

[Thor 7,515]

Still convinced that people can't stand your C&C posts because you have a taste for shorter albums, Thor?

Yes, fommes. I've found nothing here that says otherwise. If people get frustrated because I have a different preference, and have no intention of changing that (why would I?), then that's something that they have to work with. The world is full of people with different preference than themselves, and they won't be able to change that by continually questioning it. All they will get is the same response. Over and over and over again.

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

Wow, no postage or returning the old one or anything. That's awfully kind of them!

[Quintus 5,399]

Are those first few seconds of The Computer Room a deliberate nod to Courage's Star Trek?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Close To The edge, Relayer, Tales Of Topographic Oceans, Dark Side Of The Moon, Wish You Were Here, Tales of Mistery and Imagination: Edgar Allan Poe, Albedo 0.39, Beaubourg, The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, Tubular Bells, Ommadawn, ...

You just listed a fraction of my CD collection. (Nice to see Beauborg on that list. Are we the only two people in the world who like that album?)

[Thor 7,515]

Close To The edge, Relayer, Tales Of Topographic Oceans, Dark Side Of The Moon, Wish You Were Here, Tales of Mistery and Imagination: Edgar Allan Poe, Albedo 0.39, Beaubourg, The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway, Tubular Bells, Ommadawn, ...

You just listed a fraction of my CD collection. (Nice to see Beauborg on that list. Are we the only two people in the world who like that album?)

I like it too, one of the more underrated Vangelis albums.

In fact, most of those albums are on my favourite list too. I'm a completist of Pink Floyd and Alan Parsons Project, for example.

[Romão 2,274]

I must say, I normally find myself agreeing with Thor on the C&C issue. And this holds particularly true with JW, who I think is a terrific album producer. With some very few exceptions, namely scores that are so operatic in Nature (it its most Wagnerian meaning), that they actually benefit from C&C presentations (the Star Wars scores and, to an extent, the Indy scores and perhaps the first Harry Potter), I don't there is a single JW score that became a better listening experience with the release of the complete score in the C&C format (and this includes Jaws, The Fury, ET, Close Encounters), although I'm always very happy to have all this music out. But as pure listening experience, normally, the first cd releases, non expanded, and JW produced normally provide the best listening experience for a given score (with some recent examples as Angela's Ashes, Sabrina, Sleepers and even the prequel scores - yes, I'm including Episode 1 in this statement, although I also think the scores works great in its true C&C form). The only bad example I can think of is really AI, an album that could've been a much better listening experience even without having to be C&C.

[fommes 153]

Wow, no postage or returning the old one or anything. That's awfully kind of them!

Wrong thread, man.

[fommes 153]

I hope there isn't much extra hassle for people who ordered from SAE.

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

I know, I was just about to hop onto the other one.

Please ignore my topical diversions.