The Book Thief (2013) - New Williams film score!

[Hlao-roo 389]

RT @Mr_Big I'll probably join #TeamIt'sPrettyGoodIGuess.

[Incanus 5,723]

Oh this place is going to the tweets!

[publicist 4,643]

Be that as it may, i still don't buy the story that Williams rushed to the producers, tearingly inspired, to give them this. I don't doubt there were benign reasons but it sure sounds more like someone asked him to grace the project with his name and the customary JW^® sound. Or he has finally entered the late-John-Barry-phase of his career, which i don't believe considering all the care he laboured over something like GEISHA.

[Faleel 5,402]

I will probably join team ThisIsGreat!

[filmmusic 1,862]

Be that as it may, i still don't buy the story that Williams rushed to the producers, tearingly inspired, to give them this. I don't doubt there were benign reasons but it sure sounds more like someone asked him to grace the project with his name and the customary JW^® sound. Or he has finally entered the late-John-Barry-phase of his career, which i don't believe considering all the care he laboured over something like GEISHA.

What do you mean by late-John-Barry-phase?

[mbrannon47 0]

From the Soundcloud clips, 0:33 into the sample of Rudy Is Taken is VERY similar to Arlington from JFK starting at around 1:14 and especially around 2:30

Soundcloud clip of Rudy is Taken from The Book Theif: https://soundcloud.com/sony-soundtracks/rudy-is-taken-by-john?in=sony-soundtracks/sets/the-book-thief-ost

YouTube clip of Arlington from JFK:

[King Mark 3,631]

That theme at 4.33 of the last track is incredibly beautiful

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Be that as it may, i still don't buy the story that Williams rushed to the producers, tearingly inspired, to give them this. I don't doubt there were benign reasons but it sure sounds more like someone asked him to grace the project with his name and the customary JW^® sound. Or he has finally entered the late-John-Barry-phase of his career, which i don't believe considering all the care he laboured over something like GEISHA.

What do you mean by late-John-Barry-phase?

Becoming a pastiche of oneself.

[filmmusic 1,862]

Be that as it may, i still don't buy the story that Williams rushed to the producers, tearingly inspired, to give them this. I don't doubt there were benign reasons but it sure sounds more like someone asked him to grace the project with his name and the customary JW^® sound. Or he has finally entered the late-John-Barry-phase of his career, which i don't believe considering all the care he laboured over something like GEISHA.

What do you mean by late-John-Barry-phase?

Becoming a pastiche of oneself.

I thought that is called "style".

[Richard Penna 3,749]

Still can't get into that main theme - from day one it sounded like some alternative, less interesting approach to Angela's Ashes.

[publicist 4,643]

I thought that is called "style".

That's what James Horner says. Of course, it's no big issue if Williams at 81 is content with producing Best-of albums, but amidst all the expected 'it's so beautiful' exclamations i find it fair to point out that, 'yes, it is, but it also was beautiful the last 4 times before'.

[filmmusic 1,862]

well, what more do you think he has to say?

I think whatever was to be said in Williams' film music has already been said in his over 50 year career.

Unless he did the music for something COMPLETELY different!

eg. a small independent contemporary drama requiring a chamber score (perhaps a string quartet or something).

There, he would have the opportunity to present something entirely different.

As long as the films for which he composes music, aren't something NEW, then the music will be accordingly too.

eg. Imagine what Williams could write for a film like "Beasts of the Southern Wild"..I think it would be interesting..

[publicist 4,643]

I don't think the matter at hand necessarily has anything to do with the BOOK THIEF score, more with messageboard discussion culture. As a listener i could care less that another score with very similar features becomes part of my collection. As part of a discussion group, i always felt inclined to counter the halleluja choir that always seems to be content with the offered goods. I see such behaviour as part of the reason why so many artistic products stagnate or at least don't concern themselves with the issue of originality.

(and before anyone comes up with the usual bullshit á la 'this is not IMAGES, so don't expect an experimental score'; i expect the BT to be a maudlin melodrama that will be forgotten a week after it's out of cinemas, so i guess the music will be more than adequate, but i also don't see why we can't wish for more substantial/interesting work in the final stage of the maestros career, since he is one of the last remaining greats in the field).

[filmmusic 1,862]

Can you name ONE film composer that wrote his BEST works near the end of his career?

(this is not an ironic comment. This is just a question, because i can't think of any).

As i see it, in art occupations, at least in film directors, composers, etc., i think their career starts off progressing to a high peak, and then declines little by little.

I can't think of anyone right now (except maybe classical composers eg. Mozart, Beethoven etc.), that has indeed created his "swan song" near the end of his career.

Maybe there is, I don't know..

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Can you name ONE film composer that wrote his BEST works near the end of his career?

Bernard Herrmann wrote some of his best scores towards the end.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Leone was a genius throughout.

[publicist 4,643]

He's got a point, though. 'Best' being wholly subjective, though. Late elegiac Kurosawa may be preferred by some, while others may have died much earlier than 80, so that makes their 'best work' created at 58 still a different game.

As far as film composers go, Herrmann did a lot of substandard work after PSYCHO, too, Goldsmith kind of dived into the musical pits of hell in the late 80's so that makes his output by the late 90's superior in comparison only, alfred Newman produced good scores till the end, as did Waxman. So it's kind of a balance.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

As far as film composers go, Herrmann did a lot of substandard work after PSYCHO

What post-PYSCHO scores would you call substandard?

[publicist 4,643]

I think the british movies he did and also SISTERS and IT'S ALIVE are, on the whole, not that great.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I see where you're coming from re: ENDLESS NIGHT, THE BATTLE OF NERETVA and NIGHT DIGGER, though I do have a soft spot for SISTERS and IT'S ALIVE.

[Incanus 5,723]

I don't think the matter at hand necessarily has anything to do with the BOOK THIEF score, more with messageboard discussion culture. As a listener i could care less that another score with very similar features becomes part of my collection. As part of a discussion group, i always felt inclined to counter the halleluja choir that always seems to be content with the offered goods. I see such behaviour as part of the reason why so many artistic products stagnate or at least don't concern themselves with the issue of originality.

So basically when you consider something not "fresh" you can blame us for praising Williams or any other artist unduly so that they start resting on their laurels and do not produce "original" enough work for your ears. I know you do not mean that this corner of the internet is causing this (we are hardly influential or vociferous enough) but if you look at the reviews at large Williams is usually very heavily criticised in most medias (not in the case of Book Thief though strangely enough) when movie reviews are concerned. He enjoys media success in most other ways, be it anniversary articles or concert reviews yes but I doubt Williams is reading much the reviews and stagnating in his lofty contentment in his own skills as a result of that.

But of course if you can't say anything nice about Book Thief then you can't. Honesty is the best policy. And it is good to have the other end of the scale represented here.

Oh btw I decided to wait for the CD to arrive before listening to any more of the score, clips or otherwise. Shame that the film will be coming out in February so I can't see it in conjunction with having the soundtrack album.

[Bowie 45]

Besides Angela's Ashes, the main theme also reminds me of Irina's Theme, especially the chromatic lines, and the way the melody is echoed quickly by other instruments to provide that sort of "clumsy" displaced disharmony.

[SF1_freeze 131]

Can you name ONE film composer that wrote his BEST works near the end of his career?

Bernard Herrmann wrote some of his best scores towards the end.

Well, i consider Prisoner of Azkaban and War Horse among the best JW works.

Concerning the book thief, i really need to hear the whole thing. Often the details are what matter and even with 50 seconds samples and 3 full tracks there is still so much unheard.

The main theme is rather average and doesn't seem to appear all that often. The stuff i really love are the secondary themes and motifs. Especially the theme starting at 4:13 in the End Credits suite, gorgeous. And i really adore the two playful tracks called "The Snow Fight" and "Foot Race".

Judging by the 50 second samples the score seems to be very good and quite beautiful, i guess i will like it better than Lincoln and worse than War Horse.

[publicist 4,643]

So basically when you consider something not "fresh" you can blame us for praising Williams or any other artist unduly so that they start resting on their laurels and do not produce "original" enough work for your ears.

Incanus, not "I" consider it not fresh, it just isn't, by any standard. I already said that i don't actually care about the originality factor of scores like this, so what i said is directed at the bigger picture of the issue, though this seems futile. I'm now officially in the BT haters camp!

[Incanus 5,723]

So basically when you consider something not "fresh" you can blame us for praising Williams or any other artist unduly so that they start resting on their laurels and do not produce "original" enough work for your ears.

Incanus, not "I" consider it not fresh, it just isn't, by any standard. I already said that i don't actually care about the originality factor of scores like this, so what i said is directed at the bigger picture of the issue, though this seems futile. I'm now officially in the BT haters camp!

Nah I would put you in the lukewarm camp at the moment.

[Nemesis 249]

That theme at 4.33 of the last track is incredibly beautiful

That!

[SF1_freeze 131]

Problem is that JW has just done almost everything already. He therefore cannot do anything new without repeating himself in some way (except maybe starting with synthesizer and electronics).

What style of scoring, what way of writing would really be fresh and original in JW case?

PoA was his most original and fresh score since The Lost World. Then you also have Minority Report and Memoirs of a Geisha...

I personally see it differently. Freshness and originality are not dependent on changing the genre and style every other score. Freshness and originality are for me the strength of the thematic and motific material, the orchestration, the action writing and the variety of a score. If a composer in addition to all of that also writes something completely new/original the score gets bonus points (like JW medieval compositions in PoA)

PoA: Very strong thematic material, Fantastic variety and originality (Jazz, Waltz, Medieval, Christmas Song, Chorus, Dissonant, Clock/Time music, ...), completely new feel to it unlike any other JW score, Great and inspired action writing with several action motifs,..

Jurassic Park: Very strong thematic material but you heard stuff like that before, JW in upbeat fanfare mode, Good variety but you heard it before (Cartoon music, chorus, exoctic stuff reminiscent of ToD), Strong action writing

Both scores belong to my top 10 favorite JW score list. On paper Jurassic Park has less variety, originality and freshness than PoA. Still Jurassic Park for me is a better score just for the strength of its themes and the beauty of its music. And i wouldn't care if JW has written 10 other scores in the Jurassic Park style before. It would still be as great as it is.

[Romão 2,276]

AI, War of the Worlds, Memoirs of a Geisha, Minority Report are all fairly recent scores

[KK 3,307]

Be that as it may, i still don't buy the story that Williams rushed to the producers, tearingly inspired, to give them this. I don't doubt there were benign reasons but it sure sounds more like someone asked him to grace the project with his name and the customary JW^® sound. Or he has finally entered the late-John-Barry-phase of his career, which i don't believe considering all the care he laboured over something like GEISHA.

Agreed, except for the John Barry-phase thing. That's essentially what I was trying to say when I said this probably isn't the great "passion project" that everyone likes to make it out to be. Yes, that was the case for the last non-Spielberg film Williams scored, but that doesn't have to apply for every new non-Spielberg project in his career, and I don't think it applies here.

[publicist 4,643]

Both scores belong to my top 10 favorite JW score list. On paper Jurassic Park has less variety, originality and freshness than PoA. Still Jurassic Park for me is a better score just for the strenght of its themes and the beauty of its music. And i wouldn't care if JW has written 10 other scores in the Jurassic Park style before. It would still be as great as it is.

That may very well be, but again we are about to cross the blurry line were people equate, or try to equate, I LIKE with something being universally great and brilliant. And i oppose that with all my might. Because it does matter that a filmmaker like Cúaron forces JW out of his comfort zone to produce a more fresh score...or there's a stagnation that may get applauded on messageboards by ardent fans but that in the long run hurts the art and the artist. And i think in a way Williams even might agree with this, at least considering his own striving for recreation after 1995 till, say, WOTW.

That all doesn't mean that the BOOK THIEF isn't nice to listen to...just saying...

[Romão 2,276]

But still, Publicist, given, say, JW's last 10 scores, I really don't thing you can make a generalization torwards slylistic stagnation. But within certain types of stories, like the Book Thief, the path that has been trod is probably the right choice. But I still haven't listened to the score. I adore Angela's Ashes though

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I'd definitely call JW stagnant at this point; and I wouldn't call 8+ years recent.

[nightscape94 965]

I think people are confusing "fresh/new" with "interesting". These two things are enitrely independent of each other. When I think of a score like "War Horse" or "Memoirs of a Geisha" or "Adventures of Tintin", these are great recent scores. Accusing Williams of writing bad music is one thing, but to accuse him of sounding like himself is silly. If you want to debate the musicallity of scores like "Stepmom" against "A.I." then I'm on board. Otherwise, laying into his style is like saying that Beethoven's Eighth Symphony is lame because he ran out of ideas by that point and it sounds too much like Beethoven.

Also, this is based on the assumption that most people don't listen to Williams' concert works and are only speaking to his film scores.

[crocodile 8,041]

Accusing Williams of writing bad music is one thing, but to accuse him of sounding like himself is silly.

And if we were to apply that to Horner...

Pub doesn't try to offend anyone. He just feels a bit letdown that the music doesn't offer him anything new. You know, like A.I. kind of new. I'm sure he's enjoying it nonetheless.

Karol

[publicist 4,643]

But still, Publicist, given, say, JW's last 10 scores, I really don't thing you can make a generalization torwards slylistic stagnation. But within certain types of stories, like the Book Thief, the path that has been trod is probably the right choice.

Well, people might have said that about HARRY POTTER, too. And still, part III delivered something not out of the 'ole toolshed and - surprise, surprise - people were jubilant what a great score it was. Scores from 10 years before i wouldn't really count. LINCOLN had the same tendency of repeating older works.

Accusing Williams of writing bad music is one thing, but to accuse him of sounding like himself is silly.

That is exactly what i am talking about. Are you honestly implying the BOOK THIEF score wouldn't sound like Williams if he did something less shopworn?

Pub doesn't try to offend anyone. He just feels a bit letdown that the music doesn't offer him anything new. You know, like A.I. kind of new. I'm sure he's enjoying it nonetheless.

Karol

Thanks for knowing me inside out.

[King Mark 3,631]

I dunno why Williams would want to sound "new". His style his his style and that's why we love him. If he strayed too much from his usual style we'd all hate the score anyways

I think Tintin is not as good as his usual blockbuster score because he tried to sound more "modern" POTC-Zimmerish with the pirate theme. The film was probably temped tracked with Zimmer stuff

[Marcus 390]

So basically when you consider something not "fresh" you can blame us for praising Williams or any other artist unduly so that they start resting on their laurels and do not produce "original" enough work for your ears.

Incanus, not "I" consider it not fresh, it just isn't, by any standard. I already said that i don't actually care about the originality factor of scores like this, so what i said is directed at the bigger picture of the issue, though this seems futile. I'm now officially in the BT haters camp!

I'm sorry, but the arrogance of Publicist's response here is a bit too overwhelming not to comment on:

@Publicist: This is your point of view, and you can claim no more absolute objectivity in it than for instance those who would find this score positively brimming with fresh ideas.

Personally, I've already noted several fresh aspects to this score even from the snippets and those three full tracks; some hitherto unheard of, and others remarkable expansions upon techniques explored elsewhere. I have no idea what sort of knowledge you possess as far as compositional craft goes, but the bi-tonality of "Foot Race" was very striking to me, as are both the thematic and harmonic construction of the main theme, and the final "suite" is developed most unusually: Rather than merely a suite of material from the score, this particular piece is more of a kaleidoscope, with its recurring piano motif a sort of lens through which the music is observed (or "read"). I think there's much more to this score than meets the eye (or ear?), and I look forward to studying it very keenly.

Style is naturally a given, and the superficial similarities to previous efforts is in my view precisely a sign of originality, not lack thereof! The origin being a true and profoundly clear musical voice, and indeed one with an extraordinary range.

What really strikes me the most with Williams' score for "The Book Thief" so far, is the exact opposite of the sort of sedate attitude you seem to detect, Publicist. I don't hear stagnation. I hear an unyielding sense of wonder.

[King Mark 3,631]

From what I heard of The Book Thief so far, I think I'll prefer it over Angela's Ashes, Stepmom, Rosewood,Sleepers, Amistad, Saving Private Ryan,Seven Years in Tibet and Memoirs of a Geisha

so it might rank at the "top" of his drama scores for me

[Mari 279]

Here are a few new clips where you can listen to more of the music in context:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrC7a7rENa8

(Includes some of the Foot Race)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN740Sxynr0

(Includes some of Ilsa's Library)

[Marcus 390]

Wonderful! And again, it's interesting to note just how much detail goes into something like "The Foot Race" even for something so ephemeral; clearly, Williams seizes the opportunity to have fun on his own, as well as accompanying the on screen activities.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I dunno why Williams would want to sound "new". His style his his style and that's why we love him. If he strayed too much from his usual style we'd all hate the score anyways

I think Tintin is not as good as his usual blockbuster score because he tried to sound more "modern" POTC-Zimmerish with the pirate theme. The film was probably temped tracked with Zimmer stuff

The point publicist is trying to make is that being new and fresh doesn't mean straying or abandoning a musical style. Prisoner Of Azkaban sounds nothing like anything JW had done before, yet it was undeniably a Williams score. One doesn't have to forgo style to create new and interesting ideas.

War Horse did that for me. Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull, The Adventures Of Tintin, and Lincoln didn't.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Besides Angela's Ashes, the main theme also reminds me of Irina's Theme, especially the chromatic lines, and the way the melody is echoed quickly by other instruments to provide that sort of "clumsy" displaced disharmony.

Great observation.

On a separate note, like some others, I'm not bowled over (yet) by the main theme (at this point I'd say it's fairly unremarkable), but the rest of the score carries a lot of promise. I really like the gentle undulations of the ascending/descending piano scale motif -- the overall instrumental color there is wonderful.

From what I heard of The Book Thief so far, I think I'll prefer it over Angela's Ashes, Stepmom, Rosewood,Sleepers, Amistad, Saving Private Ryan,Seven Years in Tibet and Memoirs of a Geisha

so it might rank at the "top" of his drama scores for me

Stepmom's in my Williams top 10, so that's a high bar to clear, but I hear what you're saying. I know I'm extrapolating wildly from the excerpts we've heard, but I'd say he's taken ingredients from several of those scores and, in many cases, elevated them.

Pub doesn't try to offend anyone. He just feels a bit letdown that the music doesn't offer him anything new. You know, like A.I. kind of new. I'm sure he's enjoying it nonetheless.

Karol

Haters gonna hate.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

A good score is a fundamentally good score. With coherent themes, interesting instrumentation, orchestral color. These are timeless qualities, a well written score will always please and engage. That's how it works. So what if this KIND of score has been written. These are fundamentals of music and will ALWAYS please.

And regarding Williams recent output, I think it is still the strongest amongst working composers. I think Tintin is a GREAT score, War Horse is fantastic, Lincoln is pretty good, I even have time for KoCS. Memoirs and Munich are lovely. Tintin specially, I think is a masterpiece. So he's doing pretty good for himself.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Prisoner Of Azkaban sounds nothing like anything JW had done before, yet it was undeniably a Williams score. One doesn't have to forgo style to create new and interesting ideas.

Jane Eyre, anyone? And let's see... a Rossini pastiche; Mos Eisley big band outtakes; old hat Williams soaring strings flying music; lots of disjointed, anonymous sounding action cues, including a fugue that goes nowhere and disintegrates into an inert mess worthy of "Jango's Escape."

I suppose the ticking clock counts as new in the Williams canon.

[publicist 4,643]

What really strikes me the most with Williams' score for "The Book Thief" so far, is the exact opposite of the sort of sedate attitude you seem to detect, Publicist. I don't hear stagnation. I hear an unyielding sense of wonder.

You would hear an unyielding sense of wonder in Williams' breaking wind, so no surprise there. But thus any constructive debate has ceased to exist, making place for the usually inane fan masturbation (cue user Marcus to gloss up his own lack of any critical distance to the object of his affection in long-winded fake-erudite terms).

Boys, it was fun, but i'm out of this.

[filmmusic 1,862]

A little bit off topic:

Marcus, I've heard some pieces of yours, you seem to know well your craft and all.

So, I would be very curious to hear your opinion on this:

Is there any Williams theme or film score at all that you find it's among his weakest endeavors (post-1975)? (not necessarily meaning that it's bad. But less interesting)

[SF1_freeze 131]

Prisoner Of Azkaban sounds nothing like anything JW had done before, yet it was undeniably a Williams score. One doesn't have to forgo style to create new and interesting ideas.

Jane Eyre, anyone? And let's see... a Rossini pastiche; Mos Eisley big band outtakes; old hat Williams soaring strings flying music; lots of disjointed, anonymous sounding action cues, including a fugue that goes nowhere and disintegrates into an inert mess worthy of "Jango's Escape."

I suppose the ticking clock counts as new in the Williams canon.

As you said in your post before, haters gonna hate... you do the same thing here. You forgot that almost half of the score consists of unique medieval style music and orchestrations which have never been heard before or after in a JW score.

By the way, will every Jazz Big Band piece composed after Starwars be a "Mos Eisley Big Band Outtake" and therefore unoriginal? You should watch Starwars again and you will notice that your so called Big Band consists of only 6 aliens playing in a cantina.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Prisoner Of Azkaban sounds nothing like anything JW had done before, yet it was undeniably a Williams score. One doesn't have to forgo style to create new and interesting ideas.

Jane Eyre, anyone? And let's see... a Rossini pastiche etc.

PRISONER OF AZKABAN is basically a pastiche score. The Knight Bus cue is just a glorified tribute to the Raymond Scott Quintette.

[Incanus 5,723]

Prisoner Of Azkaban sounds nothing like anything JW had done before, yet it was undeniably a Williams score. One doesn't have to forgo style to create new and interesting ideas.

Jane Eyre, anyone? And let's see... a Rossini pastiche etc.

PRISONER OF AZKABAN is basically a pastiche score. The Knight Bus cue is just a glorified tribute to the Raymond Scott Quintette.

Actually the Knight Bus bears resemblance to the Sinfonietta for Wind Ensemble if I remember correctly.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Yeah, and there's quite some stuff that harkens back to Images. For example, Secrets of the Castle reminds me a lot of Dogs, Ponies and Old Ruins -it kinda makes sense, both Susanah York and Harry live in magical worlds- and the Dementors material sounds quite a bit like Reflections.

I remember there was more of this, and even got me into thinking that Cuarón was a fan of Images, but I can't remember the other examples.

Having said that, I absolutely adore POA and I think it's one of Williams' better scores from recent years.