The Music Of The Hobbit Films - Doug Adams' Book confirmed by Howard Shore

[Chen G. 3,524]

24 minutes ago, Bofur01 said:

Why's no-one talking about Calenardhon being on the map - I thought this series was going to be about the adventures of Aragorn?

 

The Young Aragorn thing was never confirmed, I'm afraid, although it does strike me as the most likely option: its going to have all the hallmarks of this series.

 

I've noticed the Calenardhon inscription, but I'm still not sure whether its appropriate to make something of it. You'll also note that the Mountains of the East (Orocarni) actually appear in the map, and are certainly much closer to the westlands than they are in other Tolkien maps.

 

That's actually based on the map from The Lord of the Rings:

 

[Bofur01 244]

Ah true, I hadn't caught that in LotR, I assumed they were mountains made up for the new series, rather than copied off the map from FotR.

 

Could there be enough in the appendices to make the whole kin-strife/Castamir shebang into a series? Those passages always seemed quite dramatic to me. 

[Holko 8,947]

Middle-Earth: The Rains of Castamir!

[Chen G. 3,524]

4 minutes ago, Bofur01 said:

Could there be enough in the appendices to make the whole kin-strife/Castamir shebang into a series? Those passages always seemed quite dramatic to me.

 

Yeah, when I first heard of the show, it was in my mind that the best course of action would be to condense the early third age so as to make the attacks on Gondor, the Kinstrife and the War in the North occur simultaneously,  and cut between them.

 

The appendices are basically all there is with regards to those time periods. Beyond them, its a matter of the ingenuity of the showrunners and writers (which isn't a bad thing).

 

Interestingly, based on the appendices, if they really wanted to - say - do the Fall of Numenore, they could. All the essential details are in the appendices. But they obviously want something that has the hallmarks of the series, rather than going too far back into its internal history.

[Jurassic Shark 11,112]

Middle-Earth: Keep Watching This if You've Given up Getting a Girlfriend

[John 2,032]

seems like I'm all set then

[SUH 63]

Well, nearly five years on and I'm still discovering new things about these scores!

 

I had no idea the 'Forces of the Enemy' theme from ROTK (scoring the Witchking and Fellbeast at Minas Morgul) which is reprised in DOS for the Sauron reveal, is also played in BOTFA. I was shocked to hear it after all this time - perhaps this was obvious to many of you!

 

 

 

(twitter has a built in translator now - neat!)

 

Doug retweeted the penultimate tweet from this thread today (click the twitter icon to see the full thread).

 

Musical examples from those tweets:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chen G. 3,524]

Yeah, I seem to recall hearing it in The Guardians of the Three, but its certainly not too overt.

 

Of the pieces reprised from The Lord of the Rings, by far my favourite is the Map one. Its becomes part of the fabric of the scores, because its so tied to Thorin's material. It forever transformed that moment in The Fellowship of the Ring. Immensly clever scoring.

[Incanus 5,659]

11 hours ago, SUH said:

Well, nearly five years on and I'm still discovering new things about these scores!

 

I had no idea the 'Forces of the Enemy' theme from ROTK (scoring the Witchking and Fellbeast at Minas Morgul) which is reprised in DOS for the Sauron reveal, is also played in BOTFA. I was shocked to hear it after all this time - perhaps this was obvious to many of you!

 

 

 

(twitter has a built in translator now - neat!)

 

Doug retweeted the penultimate tweet from this thread today (click the twitter icon to see the full thread).

 

Musical examples from those tweets:

 

 

 

I spotted that pretty much immediately when I heard Guardians of the Three and thought it was a nice little musical touch. I think I even mentioned it in my three part theme analysis article in 2015 for Films on Wax (sadly the site is defunct but the articles can be found HERE, HERE and HERE) but under a different name, Sauron Revealed.

[Dr. Rick 1,097]

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The Hobbit scores are yet to take their permanent spot in history."  Possible good sign for Hobbit CR releases in the future?  

[Barnald 364]

Also interesting there is the possible suggestion (maybe I'm reading too much into it) that Amazon's series may ultimately form part of that 'giant tapestry' (perhaps regardless of Shore's direct involvement, though far preferably with it).

[Evanus 202]

Shore better be involved with the series, or I'll be incredibly annoyed!

 

Either way, hopefully the book releases soon. With the CR's alongside it. 

[Jurassic Shark 11,112]

It would be nice to hear a fresh approach to the music of middle earth from a different composer - I feel that Shore has exhausted his most inspired material already, and then some.

[mstrox 6,249]

I would love to hear what Howard Shore does with Middle Earth under a different director.

[Jurassic Shark 11,112]

It would be fun if Shore directed and Jackson wrote the music.

[Arpy 4,124]

Quote

 

"The Hobbit scores are yet to take their permanent spot in history."  Possible good sign for Hobbit CR releases in the future?  

I interpreted that statement to be nothing more than Doug saying that they're yet to be released, not that there's any indication there are plans yet.

 

 

[Bilbo 3,707]

Well there is at least some interest remaining in these films:

 

http://hyperurl.co/HobbitSketchbook

[Pellaeon 583]

The publisher’s blurb for this publication seems to downplay Lee’s association with the films. Presumably this is to avoid having to enter into an arrangement with New Line, but one imagines Lee’s qualms on working for the LotR films are magnified in the case of the Hobbit films; and he prefers to be remembered as a book illustrator. Additionally, this book features at least 12 new paintings, i.e., something for the 2020 Tolkien Calendar.

 

Either way, I never really cared for Lee, and I don’t quite see what Christopher Tolkien and HarperCollins see in him. Tolkien’s descriptive use of color is so vibrant, and Lee’s palate is so muted. I prefer Howe or Nasmith any day.

 

[Chen G. 3,524]

10 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

one imagines Lee’s qualms on working for the LotR films are magnified in the case of the Hobbit

 

Eh?

 

I never heard of Alan Lee (who is a fantastic illustrator, by the way) having substantial "qualms" about working on the live-action films.

[Pellaeon 583]

In The Lord of the Rings Sketchbook, he wrote, “If I ever had any qualms about the prospect of seeing The Lord of the Rings adapted for the screen, those doubts would have been swept aside by the large numbers of enthusiastic new readers that have come to the books as a result.” I admit the wording is rather delicate and open to interpretation; still, the main thrust is that he considers the books more important.

[Jurassic Shark 11,112]

I thought he was referring to the increased sales of his own books.

[Pellaeon 583]

He surely did not intend that. Some more excerpts from the same passage: “we were drawn together not by the glamour of the film world…but by a love for the story we were telling;” and, “My own limitations could be characterized as a lack of will to turn dreams into ambitions.”

 

And here is my previous quote, this time with the rest of the paragraph: “If I ever had any qualms about the prospect of seeing The Lord of the Rings adapted for the screen, those doubts would have been swept aside by the large numbers of enthusiastic new readers that have come to the books as a result. In spite of my overexposure to the story during the past few years, I still find the text moving, beautiful, and exciting. I know that I will continue to be inspired by it, and find fresh things in it to enjoy.”

[Richard Penna 3,222]

I think that's pretty easy to interpret: he was skeptical whether LotR could ever be adapted successfully into a film, but wasn't worried about it when he thought about the new book readers that would come from an adaptation.

 

So yeah, sounds like he values the books more, but I don't think it means anything negative towards the films - just that he was one of many who wasn't sure it could be done.

[Bilbo 3,707]

He wouldn’t have come back for The Hobbit if he wanted to be distanced from the films. 

[Jurassic Shark 11,112]

I'm guessing Jackson had some dirt on him and forced him back.

[Chen G. 3,524]

57 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

He wouldn’t have come back for The Hobbit if he wanted to be distanced from the films. 

 

Didn’t Lee also work on King Kong?

[Jurassic Shark 11,112]

Sellout!

[Chen G. 3,524]

It’s worth mentioning Lee did concept art for films and TV before The Lord of the Rings films came around, too.

[Jurassic Shark 11,112]

Even worse!

[Arpy 4,124]

On 8/1/2019 at 4:56 AM, Pellaeon said:

 

 

Either way, I never really cared for Lee, and I don’t quite see what Christopher Tolkien and HarperCollins see in him. Tolkien’s descriptive use of color is so vibrant, and Lee’s palate is so muted. I prefer Howe or Nasmith any day.

 

 

 

As an illustrator and someone who has a degree in fine art, having studied it for six years, (and a Tolkien fan) it's abundantly clear to me why Jackson sought out Alan Lee to help bring Middle-earth to the big screen. Lee's work has an extraordinary sense of being otherworldly, but also suggests a great deal of detail too, working in intricate details that illustrate a world that feels real and tangible, something that would (and did) help when producing the films alongside John Howe.

 

I might be biased because Lee has been such an influential artist in my own life and career, but I think it's a bit ridiculous to say you can't see why Christopher Tolkien and HarperCollins chose him, when Lee's work, as muted as it might be is so evocative of Tolkien's descriptions. I love Nasmith's work too!

[Holko 8,947]

I love Lee's pencil art, probably a lot more than his watercolours!

[Pellaeon 583]

Fair enough. I do see it—he is a very able artist, and his work is guaranteed to add value to their (re-)publications. It just strikes me personally as the sort of art one feels one is supposed to like but does not actually like. It’s so grey, and undaring. I’m glad they branched out a bit with the Nasmith Silmarillion and the Catlin Hobbit; it’s unfortunately just a drop in the hat amongst the sea of Lee.

[Pellaeon 583]

 

They’re doing a deluxe slipcased edition of the two books. 3,000 copies. The Hobbit Sketchbook will be signed by Lee.

[Jon Turner 18]

I sure hope this still happens.  I quite enjoyed the Hobbit trilogy (not as much as the original Lord of the Rings trilogy, but it was still good overall), and its music was stunning throughout.  Howard Shore really captures the voice of Tolkien to a T and beyond, and it would be a fitting companion to Doug Adams' Music of The Lord of the Rings book.  Complete Recordings, too, might be nice.

[Jay 35,246]

Is Doug allowed to take his books to another publisher since his current one doesn't seem to want to actually publish his books? 

 

Impossible Silence was announced before this one yet neither have had any news in years

[Jurassic Shark 11,112]

And it seems he's not allowed to talk about the situation either, for any of the books. I'm very curious about Impossible Silence.

[Doug Adams 491]

5 hours ago, Jay said:

Is Doug allowed to take his books to another publisher since his current one doesn't seem to want to actually publish his books? 

 

Impossible Silence was announced before this one yet neither have had any news in years

 

This is the double-edged sword of contracts: 1) hooray you have a contract!, but 2) you're completely at their mercy.

 

I'm not making any noise on social media (does this count?), but I have an Impossible Silence meeting coming up later this week. Hobbit, I'll be honest, haven't heard anything for a while. I get the feeling that everyone is eyeing Amazon and waiting to see where the IP goes and what energy it produces. 

 

I'm trying to set up a couple of lectures -- one in the States and one in the UK -- in 2020, so at the very least I could present some of the Hobbit material there. Both would be in the second half of the year ... if they happen.

 

EDIT: I should also point out that my professional life took a sort of drastic left turn four or five years ago, which left me with a little less time to nudge these projects along. So I can't place all the blame on publishers, etc. However, I had some medical stuff going on over the holidays, which allowed me a little more time with the computer. I guess I should be careful what I ask for!

[Jay 35,246]

Interesting update, thanks for sharing with us, Doug!

 

You'd think the Hobbit book would have sold more copies by coming out while the Hobbit films were still fresh, and then maybe received a bump when the Amazon series starts.   I'm not sure why a publisher would think it makes sense to just wait for the Amazon series to start.  

[Holko 8,947]

You know what could bump it. Hobbit CRs! (as in, not like the LotR CRs but like the proper expanded releases with alternates and everything which should be obvious to everyone and I shouldn't have to clarify it, until then I'm not even sure what the point of a wide book release to some people who can't read music is, unless it only describes the half-scores on those messes in which case I don't see the whole point anyway)

[mstrox 6,249]

The LOTR CRs closed the book on LOTR for me.  I'd be very happy with Hobbit CRs like that.

[Jurassic Shark 11,112]

Don't worry, Doug, I'll publish your books on my own publishing house, JS University Press.

[Barnald 364]

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

The LOTR CRs closed the book on LOTR for me.  I'd be very happy with Hobbit CRs like that.

 

Given the differences between the film score and the OST in the case of AUJ, they'll have to take a different approach with that at least.

[Presto 4,712]

1 hour ago, Barnald said:

 

Given the differences between the film score and the OST in the case of AUJ, they'll have to take a different approach with that at least.

Not necessarily, just include film and embed alternates like with TTT and ROTK.

[Holko 8,947]

I thought those mostly just restored unused stuff to try and get as close to one complete finalised Shore Vision as possible even if it never existed, especially with the chrono issues in RotK here and there. Where do they embed actual alternates of material that is also included?

[Presto 4,712]

25 minutes ago, Holko said:

I thought those mostly just restored unused stuff to try and get as close to one complete finalised Shore Vision as possible even if it never existed, especially with the chrono issues in RotK here and there. Where do they embed actual alternates of material that is also included?

Houses of Healing film edit, and the Sissel original (And The Grace of Undomiel).

 

Emyn Muil. Night Camp/The Eaves of Fangorn (Rarities, but still a case of two alts in one)

 

Several cues have material that cover the same footage like The Three Hunters, The Banishment of Eomer, Osgiliath Invaded, Dernhelm in Battle, Shieldmaiden of Rohan...

 

The End Credit edits also use some alts (most of which can also be found elsewhere.)

 

Days of the Ring is also technically a edit with Into the West replacing Frodo's Song (the version underneath the Howard Shore & Doug Adams conversation track on the Rarities.)

 

[Holko 8,947]

So, separate full recordings intended to be used at one stage, ended up being rescored partly so including only one would not be the full picture but editing them together would not be faithful to Shore's intents. Rarities doesn't count, including alternates and stuff is its explicit purpose. With something like the Goblin Tunnel escape you'd have no choice but to include the original and the one with the Misty Mountains insert, similarly with the stuff afterwards actually, the trees and eagles and everything. There you'd have to commit to one sequence as the main one and include the rest later as alternates (unless you say "you have the original on the OST already" in which case go to hell).

[Presto 4,712]

True, though the Rarities was also intended as a listening experience, which is why the Rarities has (what seem to be) microedits

 

[Doug Adams 491]

On 1/13/2020 at 9:26 AM, Jay said:

Interesting update, thanks for sharing with us, Doug!

 

You'd think the Hobbit book would have sold more copies by coming out while the Hobbit films were still fresh, and then maybe received a bump when the Amazon series starts.   I'm not sure why a publisher would think it makes sense to just wait for the Amazon series to start.  

 

Yeah, that was my thought too. I worked like a madman to write my first draft of Hobbit between January and early May 2015. But alas, it was not to be. 

[Arpy 4,124]

This seems to be a similar position Jeremy Zuckerman might be in with releasing the Avatar and Legend of Korra scores, releases which were never a guarantee, and the upcoming Netflix series could bolster their chances or hamper them. 

[Jurassic Shark 11,112]

7 hours ago, Doug Adams said:

But alas, it was not to be. 

 

There never was a more fitting moment.