Thor 7,508 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 This has gotten a lot of flack for being 'autopilot' Williams, and to a certain extent, I can understand what people mean (the main theme being surprisingly similar to the AMISTAD theme, for example). But damn, it's good writing. It was a passion project for Williams, since he wanted to do fife-and-drums music and other modes of music of the era -- so it cannot have been totally bereft of inspiration. I also really like the film, but then I'm a big Emmerich fan to begin with. I love Mel Gibson in this mode -- raw, emotional, rugged, intense. The only drawback with it is that it prevented more collaborations with David Arnold. Emmerich's post-Arnold scores have certainly not been the same, even if several of the films themselves have been good. GRIGA01 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 2,835 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 I really do love the reprise of the main theme. Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Even an autopilot score, which is what this is, will have that very acomplished Williams writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share Posted March 26, 2017 True dat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 The CD as a whole doesn't do muc for me. But the theme is solid, and there's points of interest throughout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 I love the main theme (most of the themes actually) and around half an hour of the rest. The rest of it doesn't do much for me. Susan Speaks has been a particular highlight for me since my early soundtrack days. I definitely wouldn't say the score is autopilot, rather that most of it is rather average, with some moments of genius. Never paid any attention to the film. I think Emmerich was a bit of a knob for deciding Arnold wasn't good enough to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Wouldn't you choose Williams over Arnold though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Not necessarily. There are some types of scoring I think several other composers are way better at than Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Not this kind of score though. Jurassic Shark and Sharkissimo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Not even giving his career-long collaborator a chance? And then to Kloser... oh dear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 The Patriot > Independence Day + all of those other Emmerich scores Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 How many film did Arnold score that take place in a historical setting? The Musketeer, the third Narnia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 I actually prefer ID4 and Godzilla to this one. Sorry. Here's my JWFan card. It's no damn good! Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 4 hours ago, Selina Kyle said: I actually prefer ID4 and Godzilla to this one. Sorry. Here's my JWFan card. It's no damn good! Oh, I agree. STARGATE too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Arnold at his best is more fun than Williams somewhat on auto-pilot. even though Williams is the better composer. crumbs and Pieter Boelen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 18 hours ago, Richard Penna said: Not even giving his career-long collaborator a chance? And then to Kloser... oh dear. I got quite a shock when I read that Emmerich considered Kloser for The Patriot when he axed Arnold. Was he just after someone who he felt comfortable communicating with? It seems Devlin was always the one talking about the music in DVD commentaries and Emmerich would just go silent about it. Gruesome Son of a Bitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 907 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 I just love the rustic beginning of the theme with guitar and Mark O'Connor's fiddle. It was a real nice surprise for me when I realized a couple of years ago we shared an interest in seedy nut jobs/scammers/fraudsters: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/11188226/Violin-teacher-Suzuki-is-the-biggest-fraud-in-music-history-says-expert.html I got in touch and helped him a little with his research. It was surreal messaging to the guy whose fiddle I had enjoyed for some 15 years without having a clue who he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 10 hours ago, Stefancos said: Arnold at his best is more fun than Williams somewhat on auto-pilot. even though Williams is the better composer. Pretty much any composer is more fun at their best than Williams on autopilot. I wouldn't consider The Patriot autopilot though - it's just got some less interesting sections. I've long considered the ultimate autopilot JW to be AotC. I think just about anyone would've had some more fun and given us a more memorable score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 AOTC is a lot more fun than The Patriot! Gruesome Son of a Bitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 "Fun" is not really my main attraction to soundtrack listening, but yeah -- I get what you're all talkin' about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Whats wrong with fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt S. 493 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Has there ever been a recording of the concert version of The Patriot theme? I remember seeing the Boston Pops play it on TV during a July 4th concert the year the movie came out, but I don't think I've heard it since. It's quite different from the OST track, it's more of a medley of bits and pieces from the score, with the fiddle theme appearing in the middle of the piece, between the brassy themes. The 6-CD City of Prague box set doesn't having anything from The Patriot, and they usually record everything...I was wondering if there is another version floating around somewhere. I'd be curious to hear it again (although I think the OST version works perfectly as a concert version; I especially like the version with the fife-and-drum conclusion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Richard Penna said: Pretty much any composer is more fun at their best than Williams on autopilot. I wouldn't consider The Patriot autopilot though - it's just got some less interesting sections. I've long considered the ultimate autopilot JW to be AotC. I think just about anyone would've had some more fun and given us a more memorable score. Any composer? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 The Patriot is grade-A autopilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 I'm not a fan of calling any composer's work "on autopilot" just because it sounds like something they've previously written. I don't like to make presumptions about their creative process. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,694 Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 I agree that we shouldn't be making judgements about the composer's creative process, however I think sometimes you can get a feeling that the composer felt less inspired by a project. I wouldn't say The Patriot is one of those cases - I just don't find his lower key material very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Is The Patriot really Williams on autopilot? I'm not saying it's great or anything, but you can trace the evolution of later music back to this one. Revenge of the Sith and The Force Awakens, for instance, (because you all know those) feature Williams in Patriot mode. If that was autopilot, what the hell does that make those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Disco Stu 15,495 Posted March 28, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2017 4 hours ago, Richard Penna said: I agree that we shouldn't be making judgements about the composer's creative process, however I think sometimes you can get a feeling that the composer felt less inspired by a project. I wouldn't say The Patriot is one of those cases - I just don't find his lower key material very interesting. Yes and sometimes what sounds less inspired is the exact opposite of autopilot, maybe they had to strain twice as hard as normal because the inspiration wasn't there. I just think it's a useless phrase. crumbs, Indianagirl and Cerebral Cortex 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 The long-lined gentle theme that opens the album, especially the violin rendition, is absolute gold and worth the price of the album alone. Otherwise, I feel Williams' score sounded a bit dated at that time when historical epics like Braveheart or Gladiator (to which The Patriot was often compared) made a more 'feminine' and vulnerable sound the norm. Willams went for bombast and a more traditional, heroic approach which in the end hurt the film more than it did good. One of my least played Williams soundtracks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Incanus 5,715 Posted March 28, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2017 I really like this score for its complete unabashed old fashioned heroism and romance, Williams essentially in turn in the noble, pastoral and rustic Americana modes throughout. It might not be top drawer stuff as it feels all too familiar by the year 2000 but there are some genuinely great moments in it. The album doesn't really do the score favours by presenting very drawn out meandering suspense like The Burning of the Plantation and rather subdued Americana elegies like The Parish Church Aflame nearly back-to-back or indeed presenting the heroic fanfaric finale of the score half-way through the album. Plus there were some much more interesting pieces in the film that were left off the soundtrack album. Emerging in this score is the composer's increased use of the modern action trends and Williams uses the ostinati and rhythms to characterize the villains and several of the action setpieces and succeeds in creating some highly compelling moments of kinetic excitement like the ending half of Tavington's Trap, which features really nail-biting atmosphere. Redcoats on the Farm and The Death of Thomas is among my favourite pieces on the disc, full of anguished melodrama and suspenseful energy. Mark O'Connor's fiddling is a highlight in The Patriot suite and his talents and the rustic Americana colouration might have actually benefitted the whole score. Disco Stu, Sharkissimo and Indianagirl 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I've always had a soft spot for the lovely, romantic "Ann and Gabriel." Harpsichord/harp to flute to horn to full lush strings, a captivating progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 797 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 42 minutes ago, Incanus said: Mark O'Connor's fiddling is a highlight in The Patriot suite and his talents and the rustic Americana colouration might have actually benefitted the whole score. Absolutely..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,317 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I've always found this a highly evocative section of music, another JW example of music married with visuals so perfectly you can't imagine anything else accompanying it: And I always found this recurring motif to be very haunting and memorable, certainly unlike many other scores he's written: Williams clearly found inspiration from the film to write such music; not sure I've ever understood the 'autopilot' criticism. The Book Thief feels a lot more 'autopilot' than his writing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 hours ago, crumbs said: Williams clearly found inspiration from the film to write such music; not sure I've ever understood the 'autopilot' criticism. The Book Thief feels a lot more 'autopilot' than his writing here. Oh, certainly agree there. While I do think it has many 'autopilot' Americana elements (and the theme bearing a lazy resemblance to AMISTAD), it is a million times more enjoyable than THE BOOK THIEF, which is -- IMO -- one of the weakest scores JW has ever written. Which is quite surprising, because in this case, too, he was the one who sought out the assignment after having loved the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, Thor said: it is a million times more enjoyable than THE BOOK THIEF, which is -- IMO -- one of the weakest scores JW has ever written. You'll piss off Hornist again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 hours ago, crumbs said: And I always found this recurring motif to be very haunting and memorable, certainly unlike many other scores he's written: Great motif, that one. Terribly effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 On 3/26/2017 at 0:14 PM, Richard Penna said: Not even giving his career-long collaborator a chance? Didn't Arnold write demos that they rejected? I wasn't under the impression that they went right to Williams. Regardless, the autopilot criticism is ridiculous. While nothing groundbreaking occurred in the score, the music doesn't strike me as a composer who had a lack of inspiration. A lot of care was still put into the score. Autopilot means someone is just going through the motions. That is not the case, the constant use of the word is a bit obnoxious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,508 Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, nightscape94 said: Didn't Arnold write demos that they rejected? I wasn't under the impression that they went right to Williams. That is correct. They only changed to Williams when they heard he was interested. 2 minutes ago, nightscape94 said: Regardless, the autopilot criticism is ridiculous. While nothing groundbreaking occurred in the score, the music doesn't strike me as a composer who had a lack of inspiration. A lot of care was still put into the score. Autopilot means someone is just going through the motions. That is not the case, the constant use of the word is a bit obnoxious. As someone who quite likes this score, I understand your sentiment. I'm also open to other words that would describe it better. But regardless of how inspired or not JW was, the overall impression or the way it comes off, is that of something competent that draws a bit on Williams' "back catalogue" of gimmicks and tricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, nightscape94 said: Didn't Arnold write demos that they rejected? I wasn't under the impression that they went right to Williams. Regardless, the autopilot criticism is ridiculous. While nothing groundbreaking occurred in the score, the music doesn't strike me as a composer who had a lack of inspiration. A lot of care was still put into the score. Autopilot means someone is just going through the motions. That is not the case, the constant use of the word is a bit obnoxious. Well...that's just like...your opinion, man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Thor said: As someone who quite likes this score, I understand your sentiment. I'm also open to other words that would describe it better.. My complaint about the word usage was not directed toward you at all. Oddly, I only really see that word used almost exclusively when it comes to just this score. As everyone has continued to espouse the idea and propagate it, it slowly seems to have become fact or widely accepted. But your comments about it being accused of this label are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 It sounded like Williams on autopilot the first time I heard it. After a run of very interesting scores like Sleepers, Seven Years, Nixon, The Phantom Menace etc it was very much back to basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,534 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 While THE PATRIOT wouldn't scrape into my all-time JW top 50, it is, however, a solid piece of work. I'll agree with Nightie; it's nothing special, but still light years ahead of what was passing for film music, at that time. 1 hour ago, Thor said: ...it's is a million times more enjoyable than THE BOOK THIEF, which is -- IMO -- one of the weakest scores JW has ever written. A fair comment, but, hands up, who thought that THE ACCIDENTAL TOURIST was a stone cold classic, when they first heard it? Sometimes, scores can "creep up' on you. TAT did, and maybe, THE PATRIOT will, one day. I'd rather JW at his worst, than some composers, at their best. Sharkissimo and D_nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 It sounds more like people are just upset more with the genre of music than anything to do with it being generic. Do people get this upset when they listen to any of his fanfares, e.g. Liberty Fanfare, Olympic Fanfare, Olympic Spirit, etc? It's a genre that he can access, but if he wrote another next week would it be autopilot by default simply for that reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,534 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I think that you are mistaking personal preference, with objective comment. I can't tell you exactly why THE PATRIOT doesn't really do it for me. All I know is that the score just doesn't do it for me. For example: most people would prefer LEGEND, over LINK, even there was only six months between their composition. Not me. I'll take LINK, and tell LEGEND to f-off. But that's just me. LINK has a feel, a vibe that LEGEND does not have, even though it is by far the more accomplished score. Similarly, THE PATRIOT, while being a well-crafted piece of work, is, for me, less than the sum of it's parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I'm not mistaking anything, the people accusing it of autopilot are. I think people simply have a tolerance of how much of one type of Williams they can handle, and anything over the limit is then accused of genericism, which speaks nothing about the quality of the music itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 9 minutes ago, Richard said: For example: most people would prefer LEGEND, over LINK, I like both! Sure, I guess I "prefer" Legend, but they satisfy in incredibly different ways. I love Link because it makes me think of Fall. Without fail, I put that OST on and I'm transported to a world of chilly evenings, colorful foliage, and jack-o-lanterns sitting on porches. Such an effective "Halloween-y" score. I've never seen the movie and I don't want to, I prefer the images the music sparks in my imagination. Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,534 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Of course it doesn't, but at the end of the day, that's just...like...their opinions, man. fuhrsy31 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 41 minutes ago, nightscape94 said: I think people simply have a tolerance of how much of one type of Williams they can handle, and anything over the limit is then accused of genericism, which speaks nothing about the quality of the music itself. Though that sounds like out of the relativist '100 reasons why JW can't suck' rulebook. The quality of the music, at least in part, is defined by its value within a larger repertoire, at least if you want to critically discuss it (not just fanblaze it). So it's only fair to admit that however well written it might be, it also suffers from too much familiarity (in several departments). It's a shoddy movie, anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 It's William Wallace in America. How could it not be good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 For The Love of A MILFess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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