Rare 1981 John Williams interview (unedited video)

[Thor 7,520]

I saw this today on Donna's Facebook page (Donna -- you should post that stuff here immediately when you find it!).

 

It's a rare 1981 interview from the Boston TV News library, shot 07/01/1981, wherein Williams speaks about his first two seasons as leader of the Boston Pops:

 

http://bostonlocaltv.org/catalog/V_6OIPEM43A5JZJZY

 

For me, the most interesting thing about this film -- which I've never seen before -- isn't WHAT they're talking about, but rather the opportunity to see an unedited interview with Williams. He's 49 years old at this point, and seems a bit terse and at times "intimidating" in his posture. Rather unusual. But still his affable self, of course. Sadly, the audio cuts off around 13:30 when the reporter starts an off-camera conversation with JW. I would have loved to hear what they talked about then. But as it is, it's a "slice-of-life" of a particular day in JW's life in 1981.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I've often noticed that he was more brash, more forthright through his 50s.  It's mostly in the past 20 years or so that he's gotten more quiet, almost pathologically humble.  I guess that's aging?

 

But thank you for posting it here!  Very cool interview!

[crumbs 14,319]

The body language is quite interesting. Great find!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I love that he singles out Keith Emerson in this interview.  Williams confirmed as an Emerson, Lake, & Palmer fan!  He probably heard their "Peter Gunn" rendition!

[Alex 2,835]

29 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I've often noticed that he was more brash, more forthright through his 50s.  It's mostly in the past 20 years or so that he's gotten more quiet, almost pathologically humble.  I guess that's aging?

 

Ive noticed that too, especially when watching old scoring sessions. He seemed a lot more abrupt.

[crumbs 14,319]

He's just mellowed with age I think, everyone does.

 

In the TPM documentary there's some great footage of him workshopping DOTF with the LSO and he's fairly abrubt with his feedback. I doubt he's like that in sessions these days, or if he is then we don't really see it.

[Thor 7,520]

There's also that interview from the late 70s (from a British magazine, I think) where he's quoted as REALLY abrasive. I think he says PSYCHO is an overrated score at some point, for example. Of course, we have no idea if those are the legitimate quotes. Could be 'sensationalist' rewriting by the magazine, but you can hear something similar in the other audio interview from the same time (published on FSM Online) where he criticizes Meco. Many people at the height of their careers in the late 40s and throughout the 50s seem to act this way, in my experience; they're very confident in themselves and don't suffer fools lightly.

 

I think Williams was in this phase at this point, although he's obviously perfectly polite and mostly friendly in the interview above (even laughing at the STAR WARS story). He just has that slightly intimidating "air" about him, which is all but absent these days.

[Matt S. 493]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

He's just mellowed with age I think, everyone does.

 

In the TPM documentary there's some great footage of him workshopping DOTF with the LSO and he's fairly abrubt with his feedback. I doubt he's like that in sessions these days, or if he is then we don't really see it.

 

I think it was the timpanist of the London Symphony (in the video interview that was linked here recently) who said that Williams, while always a gentleman, was always in absolute command of the recording sessions. He said it was like "an iron fist inside a velvet glove."

[Naïve Old Fart 9,553]

2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

I love that he singles out Keith Emerson in this interview.  Williams confirmed as an Emerson, Lake, & Palmer fan!  He probably heard their "Peter Gunn" rendition!

 

That's a nice touch, isn't it?

I wonder if JW has heard Emerson's PIANO CONCERTO NO. 1?

It really is very good.

[thx99 1,740]

I think that part of Williams' attitude is a direct reflection of the somewhat critical questions that the interviewer keeps asking about "modernizing" the Pops, about how long Williams was planning on being with Pops, etc.  Not that the questions are bad, it's just his delivery or something about how he asked the question.

 

Plus, total speculation here, but perhaps there may have been some behind-the-scenes disagreements between Williams and the Pops management around this time that may have contributed to Williams' responses to the reporter.  For example, when the audio returns after the long break, Williams can be heard saying the following:  "...and I keep saying to them, which I hadn't thought to say, that that 'Hey, we're in the middle of a season. Let's let's finish what we're doing.  Let's not uh...' "  Maybe management ("them") wasn't too keen on how Williams was programming the Pops or something, and Williams was getting tired of hearing it from them.

[Thor 7,520]

Could be. A couple of years later, there was the "America - The Dream Goes On" debacle, which was sort of the culmination of Fiedler's old "regime" (or lack of regime) frustrating Williams. I'm sure this was an issue from the moment he took over in 1980. 

[karelm 2,915]

Great interview with lots of interesting and revealing tidbits.  Thanks for posting. 

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Do we have any lip readers for 13:55 onwards?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The turtleneck hadn't fully grown yet. The last remnants of his scalp hair are fading away. Meanwhile, he's the greatest he'd ever get.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

From the period when he composed E.T. The greatest score in the world!

[Incanus 5,716]

Great interview. Thanks for sharing this Thor!
 

14 hours ago, Alex said:

 

Ive noticed that too, especially when watching old scoring sessions. He seemed a lot more abrupt.

To my mind Williams has always been very professional, precise and focused at the recording sessions when he is rehearsing or trying to convey to the orchestra what he wants and gives directions. Which often comes off as terse compared to his interviews.

 

But it is interesting to see Williams discuss e.g. the difference of classical at BSO and the Pops repertoire and how he sees the difference and how he sees their function. As usual JW is very articulate about. And yes there is a definite change of tone here compared to some of his interviews done these days or even a decade ago. Which also might spring from the fact that JW is answering them in the capacity of the conductor and director of the Boston Pops. And now in hindsight it is also interesting to see how much speculation there was of whether or not Williams would continue with the BPO after 1981.

 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

3 hours ago, Sharky said:

Do we have any lip readers for 13:55 onwards?

 

[artguy360 1,844]

Sounds like JW to me. He has always been very precise with his language and very much in command of his own presence. He has become softer with age but he still has that precision, but with more joy these days. 

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

A little historical perspective: In the final years of the Fiedler era, there was a lot of problems between the old conductor and musicians. Even Ozawa being a supporter of the Boston Pops, the repertoire was getting either older, or to far from the tastes of classical trained musicians who doubled their positions on the BSO and Pops.

When Williams took charge in 1980, there was hope for changes, but there were also many vocal disagreement, though those were often pointed at some older repertoire in need of renovation. Of course, some didn't fell that Wiliams was using the Pops as a stepping stone to promote his own music -- a silly assumption, as Williams was commissioning and premiering contemporary composers music, and playing a lot of 20th century classical music.

By the end of his second season (around 1981, the time of this interview), there was a lot of talk regarding the fact that Williams was looking for a rather more serious post than just a Pops conductor... which is kind of obvious through some more diverse and contemporary classical programming.

Of course, the breaking point was three years later, with Williams leaving a rehearsal and temporarily resigning from his post.

 

On a side note, Williams as often spoke highly of Emmerson's Piano Concerto, in the early 80's.

[Bespin 8,484]

Great interview? I almost fell asleep! I have to watch the later part today, but the beginning with the insistance of the interviewer about the "experimental"/contemporary music is boring as hell !!! Poor John Williams who try to answer those lame questions.

[Thor 7,520]

Not someone you'd like to meet in a dark alley:

 

[zoltan_902 141]

Seems to me like he thinks the interviewer is asking dumb questions, or questions he doesn't have any meaningful answer to yet. I think much of his mood and body language is a manifestation of frustration from this.

 

Two things we can be grateful for for not hearing:

1. "So what's it like working with with Steven Spielberg?"

2. "And he said 'I know but they're all dead'..."

[Disco Stu 15,495]

11 minutes ago, zoltan_902 said:

 

2. "And he said 'I know but they're all dead'..."

 

Considering that anecdote is about 12 years in the future from this interview, it would have been quite a feat of prognostication!

[zoltan_902 141]

1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Considering that anecdote is about 12 years in the future from this interview, it would have been quite a feat of prognostication!

Seems like retrospect is the only thing that can spare us.

[Thor 7,520]

That's why John Williams interviews get more interesting, the further back in history you go.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,553]

20 hours ago, Matt S. said:

 

I think it was the timpanist of the London Symphony (in the video interview that was linked here recently) who said that Williams, while always a gentleman, was always in absolute command of the recording sessions. He said it was like "an iron fist inside a velvet glove."

 

 

# Like an iron fist, in a velvet glove,

We don't see what they're made of.

They shout about love,

But when push comes to shove,

They live for things they're afraid of #

 

[Loert 2,515]

I like the bit where he goes:

"20%, 30%, 40%....well, no, not 40%, that's too much."

Good composing requires good decision-making!

 

Also:

"...that might give you the impression that you in part correctly perceive"

a polite way of saying "Never ask me that question again"!

[aviazn 273]

On 4/7/2017 at 5:26 PM, Miguel Andrade said:

By the end of his second season (around 1981, the time of this interview), there was a lot of talk regarding the fact that Williams was looking for a rather more serious post than just a Pops conductor... which is kind of obvious through some more diverse and contemporary classical programming.

Woah, never knew Williams was seriously looking for this. As in, to be music director for, like, a "big five" orchestra? Do we know if he was ever in the running for one, or tried out for one? Has he ever talked on the record about this ambition? I mean, makes sense—he's a musician after all, and who wouldn't want to?

 

But it frankly boggles my mind to imagine what Williams' later career would have looked like if he'd been hired to lead a major orchestra (or even a minor orchestra). The Boston Pops, a two year footnote enroute to a music directorship in, say, Chicago. Film Night at Millennium Park.

 

It also boggles my mind to think that any orchestra would have taken a serious look at him—not because he's not deserving, but because of 1980s-era film score snobbery.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You really think Williams is deserving?

 

How good a conductor is he really? Not counting his own work.

[aviazn 273]

34 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

You really think Williams is deserving?

 

How good a conductor is he really? Not counting his own work.

No, I don't think he's deserving of a big five post—it just doesn't boggle my mind to imagine that orchestra managers might be willing to overlook that and install a splashy, less-than-qualified candidate in the name of box office.

 

It does boggle my mind to think that they'd consider a splashy, less-than-qualified film composer.

 

As a conductor of classical and contemporary work by other composers, I think he's rather pedestrian and straightforward.

[publicist 4,643]

But that may have to do something with the fact that JW obviously mostly performs and records stuff that doesn't need a whole lot of 'serious' preparation - i guess that there's one or two weeks prep (if at all) in advance to a Pops season which Williams did in between 1980 and 1993 and it was all done in between film work and other commitments. So it's not entirely fair to compare that to a devoted conductor and scholar of, say, Beethoven, Brahms, Shostakovich etc. who sets definite benchmarks for the performance of these works.

[Thor 7,520]

I think Williams himself is the first to admit he's not a conductor of that calibre.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He's no André Previn!

[publicist 4,643]

No Elmer Leonard Bernstein, either.

[Thor 7,520]

That being said, I think he most definitely had the chops to be a brilliant concert pianist, had he followed that path more thoroughly. But that's a different discussion.

[karelm 2,915]

On 4/6/2017 at 9:24 PM, Incanus said:

To my mind Williams has always been very professional, precise and focused at the recording sessions when he is rehearsing or trying to convey to the orchestra what he wants and gives directions. Which often comes off as terse compared to his interviews.

 

I agree with this.  Performers deeply respect him.  He has very high standards and is demanding but a consummate professional.  People do get fired from his sessions.  Dan Higgins (sax on Catch Me if You Can) recalled a situation where a concert master interrupted a take to check why violas were bowing inconsistently.  Dan said, "no one stops a take but JW".  The next day there was a different concert master.  The point was, they are looking for a musical performance, not just correct playing and you never know in the take how good something might be.  Dan mentioned during one of his solos, a brass player dropped a mute or something that caused serious noise in the take and JW kept conducting the take that some others would have thought "well, there goes that take".  The point is he doesn't hold back but it is never out of ego but rather out of the pursuit of the best musical creation and these people seriously respect him.

[aviazn 273]

8 hours ago, Thor said:

I think Williams himself is the first to admit he's not a conductor of that calibre.

Exactly! Which is why I was surprised to learn that at one point he was openly campaigning for a quote-unquote "serious" gig.

 

I knew he pushed for higher standards at the Boston Pops and that included new programming and encouraging its audience to take the music and musicianship more seriously, but I always took that to be a part of his mission to revivify the Pops—not broadcasting his desire for a different job. @Miguel Andrade said it was basically open knowledge that he was looking for one, but I wonder if that was just widespread speculation based on his programming, or if Williams has ever spoken about a desire—or even an openness—to be director of a major ensemble. Didn't he conduct the occasional BSO series? I wonder if that was a friendly gesture from management to their Pops leader, or a quasi-serious tryout, or management's way of calming him down by letting him play with the big-boy toys once in a while. It would be fascinating to ask him!

 

8 hours ago, publicist said:

But that may have to do something with the fact that JW obviously mostly performs and records stuff that doesn't need a whole lot of 'serious' preparation - i guess that there's one or two weeks prep (if at all) in advance to a Pops season which Williams did in between 1980 and 1993 and it was all done in between film work and other commitments. So it's not entirely fair to compare that to a devoted conductor and scholar of, say, Beethoven, Brahms, Shostakovich etc. who sets definite benchmarks for the performance of these works.

Yeah, I definitely agree. I guess the whole thing also surprises me because beyond his ability at the podium (which is perfectly well-suited to his needs), Williams just doesn't seem to have the network or background for a "serious" music director. His gift, to me, is to bridge decades of knowledge of pop music and jazz with impeccable craft—the perfect candidate for the Pops, really. But he collaborates with cross-over artists like Yo-Yo and Perlman and Audra McDonald—not young up-and-coming composers or performers. He just doesn't seem to hang out with the crowd that would conventionally be required to program a regular "serious" season. But one could argue that's less a reflection of his personality than of how his role with the Pops shaped his own career. I'm just fascinated to think about a Williams that at one point in his career could have taken a much more "serious" turn.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

I do believe the wish for a more "serious" post was just speculative. I never read anywhere a direct quote from Williams formulating such a wish. He never claimed to have longed for a music director position, pops or otherwise, or to pursue a career as a conductor. I do believe that was a guess from the media regarding the fact he pushed the Pops repertoire into a different, more serious at times, direction.

Williams has been asked to conduct the BSO regularly since he left the Pops job, through out the 90's. Prior to that, he would conduct the BSO mainly at Tanglewood, during Tanglewood on Parade. It's interesting to note though, that he would often conduct American serious repertoire, even if in the more accessible vein (the Copland, Bernstein, Barber trio comes to mind). He did Copland's Dickinson songs in the early 00's, for example. He also extensively conducted his own concert works in the late 90's with the BSO (Soundings, Essay for strings, Violin Concerto, Treesong, Horn Concerto, Seven for Luck and Tributes).

[Thor 7,520]

He's often spoken warmly of Peter Maxwell Davies (including the interview above). Did he ever conduct anything of Davies' more challenging works?

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Not to my knowledge.

[aviazn 273]

Thanks for the background, @Miguel Andrade!