Pieter Boelen 740 Posted December 14, 2019 Share Posted December 14, 2019 On 12/13/2019 at 9:16 PM, ocelot said: It's not that Williams has any opinion or cares about Gia's own work, he hated what he did to HIS themes. Does not want him anywhere near his themes again, is what I heard from a few people in LA, and allegedly he said that to Kennedy. Too bad; I would've been curious to hear what Gia would have come up with given a second chance. Some constructive feedback from Williams and/or a more comfortable time schedule could make all the difference in the world. But to be fair... they ARE Williams' themes. And he's most certainly earned the right to have his opinion. I not only greatly admire the man's music, but I greatly admire the man himself too. He's a true inspiration to me. Could this be why Williams himself was so heavily involved in Solo? And why The Mandalorian is steering clear of Williams' themes altogether for now? ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,498 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 45 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said: Could this be why Williams himself was so heavily involved in Solo? Now that you said it... It does makes sense. Williams seemed to get more involved with the franchise AFTER Rogue One, not only scoring Episodes VIII and IX (which he would probably have done anyway), but also helping Powell on Solo and writing the theme for Galaxy's Edge. Apparently, he got more protective of the franchise - and also it is still not clear how involved he was with Solo. 48 minutes ago, Pieter Boelen said: And why The Mandalorian is steering clear of Williams' themes altogether for now? There has been Star Wars music for other media (mostly TV) not composed by Williams being written for decades. I mean, he never seemed to care to what Kiner did to his themes on Clone Wars and Rebels, or Gordy on the videogames - or, at least, getting as pissed with it as he got with Gia. I don't think he cares about Star Wars music for TV shows or videogames, but Rogue One was the first big budget SW blockbuster that he DIDN'T scored, so this probably might have contributed to his reaction. I feel bad for Gia, though. He is clearly a fan of Williams, and like it or not the RO score, he did the best he could under the impossible conditions he was put under. Will and Pieter Boelen 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,027 Posted December 15, 2019 Author Share Posted December 15, 2019 If he disliked RO this much I wonder what he thinks of Jurassic World 2 released year and a half after that. But then, that's a different studio and these two scores make very few references to the old themes. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterTech 994 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 I'm more curious as to what he thought of John Ottman's Superman Returns, considering it would've been way before the internet being what it is now, so the information available is sparse. The most I got was that he was invited to attend a recording session, but wasn't able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTR1701 59 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 13 hours ago, ocelot said: Plus Williams is notorious to be very difficult about his own music to the point of being overly precious, he's not as "nice" as people make him out to be when it comes to his own stuff. Many have said that in the past which is why in most sequels you hear his music as is when it is possible, It is hardly every re-orchestrated. If it is, he would prefer to be involved and make sure it puts his in the best light. The Vader part of RO in the end was dreadful musically, I would not be surprised if that is what some of the complaint was about, but that is completely my own thought. I did not hear what parts he did not like, just that he had gone to Kennedy about it. Williams' SUPERMAN themes were recently used in the CW's Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover event (as well as Elfman's BATMAN theme). And they weren't orchestrated the way the were in the films. I doubt Williams was involved with scoring a CW show, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 8 hours ago, Tydirium said: The Force theme at 0:40 of "Trust Goes Both Ways" has always struck me as especially egregious. Especially 0:48-0:49... Ugh. I wouldn't be surprised if Williams wasn't a fan either. It is horrendous. It sounds like the musicians fumbled their notes MikeH and Tydirium 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 4 hours ago, crocodile said: If he disliked RO this much I wonder what he thinks of Jurassic World 2 released year and a half after that. But then, that's a different studio and these two scores make very few references to the old themes. Karol It's why I think the claims against Gia made by JW are exaggerated. I can understand Williams being protective of his own material, but this is a stretch to try and rationalize how other composers have used his music before and after RO. Pieter Boelen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,798 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 I hope not to see confirmation of Williams as a drama queen/diva ever or it will be a great letdown for me. We all know famous people are like that and have big egos, but him being always so polite and nice, it would make him the biggest hypocrite, which is worse than outright being like that in the open... Pieter Boelen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick Parker 3,040 Posted December 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 15, 2019 57 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said: I hope not to see confirmation of Williams as a drama queen/diva ever or it will be a great letdown for me. We all know famous people are like that and have big egos, but him being always so polite and nice, it would make him the biggest hypocrite, which is worse than outright being like that in the open... Would it really be so rude if Williams, as an artist with over 60 years of refining his art, with collaborations ranking with some of the most well-regarded musicians of their time, if not all time, was critical about how someone used his work? It's not like he called Giacchino a raggedy-ass cocksucker or said he should strangle himself with a velvet purple bowtie, Williams just didn't like how his work--which he obviously cares very much about--was handled. To not allow Williams to have an opinion is stripping him of his humanity. Why can he not have opinions, especially on the treatment of his own efforts? crumbs, Kasey Kockroach and MikeH 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,112 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, Nick Parker said: To not allow Williams to have an opinion is stripping him of his humanity. Why can he not have opinions, especially on the treatment of his own efforts? This! And thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,112 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, Nick Parker said: It's not like he called Giacchino a raggedy-ass cocksucker or said he should strangle himself with a velvet purple bowtie I'd respect JW even more if he did this. Pieter Boelen and MikeH 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Jurassic Shark said: I'd respect JW even more if he did this. It would be the single greatest thing that would have ever happened if he did that! Pieter Boelen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,112 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 In reality, JW probably doesn't remember his name. ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,707 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 21 hours ago, Tydirium said: The Force theme at 0:40 of "Trust Goes Both Ways" has always struck me as especially egregious. Especially 0:48-0:49... Ugh. I wouldn't be surprised if Williams wasn't a fan either. Woah, that statement is an acquired taste. It sort of works once you know what's going to happen, but the first time you hear it, it does sound wrong. I can easily imagine JW hearing that and taking issue. Tydirium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 15 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: I'd respect JW even more if he did this. 13 minutes ago, Stefancos said: It would be the single greatest thing that would have ever happened if he did that! Giacchino: Hey John, thanks for all the classic themes. They were so simple and easy to use, it allowed me to write the score in like a month. So why does it take you a year to do the same thing? hahaha Williams: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 56 minutes ago, Richard Penna said: Woah, that statement is an acquired taste. It sort of works once you know what's going to happen, but the first time you hear it, it does sound wrong. I can easily imagine JW hearing that and taking issue. Yep. It's not quite as jarring to me nowadays as I know to expect it, but when you really stop and think about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Most successful people are and can be rude, mean, demanding, jerks or whatnot behind the scenes. That’s how they got to be successful more than likely. Given all the fuss I find it hard to believe Williams was happy with the mishmash of his music in Solo for the beginning of the Kessel run sequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,798 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 25 minutes ago, Tydirium said: Yep. It's not quite as jarring to me nowadays as I know to expect it, but when you really stop and think about it... I checked it...and really...is it that better than aotc finale to the end credits segue? By the way we are forgetting that Williams' loved Bill Ross was involved in orchestrating this 'shit'. And Williams didn't chastise him ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 This also makes me wonder if there was more to Desplat’s departure, other than the reshoots pushing his schedule back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Giftheck 919 Posted December 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 15, 2019 I would think it was the Force Theme's use in Trust Goes Both Ways (as suggested above) and the Binary Sunset usage in Hope that Williams would have taken issue with specifically. The former just sounds so... wrong in its timing. The latter is far too abrupt in its flow to the ascending material that closes out the cue, and it doesn't have a proper segue to the end credits, which just makes it all the more jarring. I like the score, but I was honestly thinking 'seriously? Sounds like something was cut from this cue' when it came to Hope. Vader's theme usage in Krennic's Aspirations is one place I can think of where Williams' themes sounded 'correct', and there were some good usages of the Force theme elsewhere. Just not in those two particular pieces. ocelot, Tiburon and Tydirium 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1977 1,743 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 9 minutes ago, Gistech said: Vader's theme usage in Krennic's Aspirations is one place I can think of where Williams' themes sounded 'correct' I love that entire cue, the use of The Imperial March and the Imperial motif from ANH together is really effective tied to the visuals. I wonder if KK ever approached JW to score Rogue One. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tydirium 1,167 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 11 minutes ago, Gistech said: and the Binary Sunset usage in Hope Ew. Had forgotten about that one; you're right. 11 minutes ago, Gistech said: Vader's theme usage in Krennic's Aspirations is one place I can think of where Williams' themes sounded 'correct', and there were some good usages of the Force theme elsewhere. Just not in those two particular pieces. Yeah, there's really nothing offensive about the classic themes in "Vader's Aspirations". Part of me wonders what sort of music we would have gotten for Vader's castle if Williams scored it, though. Maybe a reference to "Enter, Lord Vader" or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,798 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Who knows maybe he hated that giacchino used the old imperial motif...which he had buried ages ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giftheck 919 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Luke Skywalker said: Who knows maybe he hated that giacchino used the old imperial motif...which he had buried ages ago... ... but he's used it since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,798 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Where? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Powel used it in Solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Are we talking about the old Imperial "fanfare" (daa dun dun daaaaa!) or the "stormtrooper" motif? Williams quoted the former in The Last Jedi for the ironing scene, but hasn't quoted the latter. Giacchino quoted both in Rogue One. Powell quoted both in Solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,798 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 I mean the stormtrooper motif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Train Heist sequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giftheck 919 Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said: I mean the stormtrooper motif My mistake, I assumed you meant the Death Star motif. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Luke Skywalker 1,798 Posted December 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 15, 2019 Yes Powell used the theme too. Maybe he won't score other SW film in his life either :p Will, Pieter Boelen, crumbs and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ocelot 508 Posted December 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 15, 2019 7 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said: I hope not to see confirmation of Williams as a drama queen/diva ever or it will be a great letdown for me. We all know famous people are like that and have big egos, but him being always so polite and nice, it would make him the biggest hypocrite, which is worse than outright being like that in the open... Why would that be him being a Diva? It's his work. He wouldn't want it represented in a way he does not want it to be. Every artist has that right. 22 hours ago, crocodile said: If he disliked RO this much I wonder what he thinks of Jurassic World 2 released year and a half after that. But then, that's a different studio and these two scores make very few references to the old themes. Karol Different Studio and most stuff in there is pretty much quoted as is. Not put under different chords that are actual re-orchestrations. Plus he might not have the clout he does with his Star Wars films to say too much. Either way, it's not really different when his stuff comes in. He has no problems with his themes being there, just how they are treated and reimagined. I have never heard of him having any issue with Powell in Solo though. In the end the way Williams writes, there is a rhythm in his themes and they make sense for a reason. There is a cadence that flows. Do too much with it and it loses it's meaning, cut it off too soon and you lose the rhythm. It would be like trying to say a sentence but you leave out words. Also he orchestrates and uses harmonic language that is from the Classical world not Film world or Pop world, so he would probably have issue with that (my assumptions of why here, nothing I have heard, just trying to figure out what it might be). It's not that I do not like Gia, I actually love him in things like Ratatouille and The Incredibles. But when it comes to pure orchestral, I honestly do not think his harmonic language is there. Not in the way a classical composer would write. He hardly modulates. I do not know the RO score well because I don't like it and have not sat down to listen to it all that much after trying to initially but there is a track, it sounds like what Williams would write in one of those marches like the Resistance March. If you notice with Williams when he writes something like that, just like a natural composer he knows when to modulate. Either going to the 5 or just going up a step. He changes the orchestration. Different groups of instruments take the theme, whilst others then take on different counter parts or chords, some then stay silent etc etc. With Gia, he stays on the same tonality pretty much the whole track.... What? You've bored the orchestra playing your music and bored me to death..... Sorry, again, I love him in his other more jazz, big band, alternative scores and he MODULATES with those. Also in Jurassic World, there is a track where the kids are in that round bubble vehicle. He has woodwinds bubbling up with these scales that have nothing to do with the tonality of the piece. I'm like, did you just choose random notes or is this just going over my head, because I know what it "should" be there, but there is no rhyme or reason in what I am hearing. Again, music is subjective and someone else might love that randomness, but to me, it makes no sense classically or musically. These are just a couple of examples off my head. Tydirium, crumbs and crocodile 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 8 hours ago, Nick Parker said: To not allow Williams to have an opinion is stripping him of his humanity. Why can he not have opinions, especially on the treatment of his own efforts? I don't think anyone believes Williams isn't allowed to have an opinion or that @Luke Skywalker's comment was anything other than good-intentioned, the problem is we're talking about rumours and hearsay and not only speaking on behalf of Williams, but on behalf of baseless chit-chat - which is far worse. Pieter Boelen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick Parker 3,040 Posted December 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 16, 2019 20 minutes ago, Arpy said: I don't think anyone believes Williams isn't allowed to have an opinion or that @Luke Skywalker's comment was anything other than good-intentioned, the problem is we're talking about rumours and hearsay and not only speaking on behalf of Williams, but on behalf of baseless chit-chat - which is far worse. I easily grant that this stuff is unverified, but I see some people acting as if Williams vocally expressing displeasure with something is some dark secret truth about the man, and is tantamount to pulling the curtain back to reveal someone other than the polite gentleman we see in interviews and countless anecdotes. Tydirium, Arpy, MikeH and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pieter Boelen 740 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 4 hours ago, ocelot said: Why would that be him being a Diva? It's his work. He wouldn't want it represented in a way he does not want it to be. Every artist has that right. If you want it done right in your own way, the only way to accomplish that is by doing it yourself. Outsourcing is always going to result in something different. Sometimes for the worse. Sometimes for the better. Sometimes for the worse at first but after encouragement for the unbelievable. Even that "unbelievable" could be better or worse. There's just no telling until after it has happened. ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 If course there is. Just hire real composers and you will get better music. ocelot and MikeH 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,798 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 So don Davis did some alterations in Jurassic park III....and know what, he doesn't work at Hollywood anymore.... I suppose that trained musicians like ocelot or Williams hear music in a different level, so I understand the discrepancy in opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said: So don Davis did some alterations in Jurassic park III....and know what, he doesn't work at Hollywood anymore.... I suppose that trained musicians like ocelot or Williams hear music in a different level, so I understand the discrepancy in opinions. BTW, Jurassic Park 3 isn't a "rumor" he hated what happened with the treatment of his theme in that. Although I would not imagine that is why Don Davis is not working in the industry. This was ages ago but there was, again I will say allegedly, a letter about why he was not called to help out when it came to his theme/s so it/they were not butchered. It even goes beyond what chord you are using. Lets say I took one of Williams themes and used the right chords. But, my leading tone is then the wrong one when orchestrating and arranging, and I did not space the strings out classically enough but did a more simplified version of it, that could get me fired or talked to because even though for most people, it is the right chords, it is not musical orchestrally...... It goes way deeper..... There is a way of writing for an orchestra that is more organic (when it comes to tonal music) it goes out the window when you do atonal work, but tonal music has to work based on music theory and naturally going from chord to chord based on classical writing. Again he is notorious in the industry as being someone who is very protective over what he writes. Some people call that a Diva, I do not. I see that as someone who wants to keep his work unadulterated and not put out in such a way that does not represent him.... Although part of me laughs at the notion that each time a trailer comes out with his music done in a pop and electronic way, he screams at the tv ROFL.... 5 hours ago, Pieter Boelen said: If you want it done right in your own way, the only way to accomplish that is by doing it yourself. Outsourcing is always going to result in something different. Which is why he takes time and writes everything himself and orchestrates pretty much everything. As Conrad Pop said and I quote, and this was to me at lunch at "La Conversation" on Doheney, which unfortunately has shut down this year, so it is not alleged, "with Williams I am a glorified copyist. The orchestrations are all there on the page already." 9 hours ago, Arpy said: I don't think anyone believes Williams isn't allowed to have an opinion or that @Luke Skywalker's comment was anything other than good-intentioned, the problem is we're talking about rumours and hearsay and not only speaking on behalf of Williams, but on behalf of baseless chit-chat - which is far worse. Yeah but again, no one is saying anything that is bad though. Not really, just that Williams does not like others touching his work, this was just the latest example of his displeasure. 17 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said: In reality, JW probably doesn't remember his name. Hi I'm Vaughan Williams, lol MikeH and Pieter Boelen 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,112 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Well, I'm Elgar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,798 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I didn't knew williams didn't like jpiii, I was making a joke, I believe Davis working in classical now is a personal choice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I don't know why Lucasfilm/Disney haven't hired you @ocelot clearly, you know exactly what to do and what to write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Actually, @ocelot is an outstanding composer. You should check out his work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,112 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 He's a gentleman and a scholar. ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Stefancos said: Actually, @ocelot is an outstanding composer. You should check out his work. It wasn't a sleight against dear ocelot's skill, but a reaction to the type of comments which form the cesspool of YouTube comments and Twitter, people who think they know what's best or could do better. ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Quite goodlooking too, in real life. ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Though the powers that be seem to prefer the Rapunzel look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,345 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I do find it interesting that LLL never pursued a JP3 expansion, even 4 years after the JP/TLW set... given their close ties to Williams and his management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedigoScan 325 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Well there was a bootleg/FYC release anyway. A full release likely wouldnt have the the film edits anyway (with a lot of the drums and brass removed, which frankly makes it sound better) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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