Star Wars Disenchantment

[Mattris 416]

On 06/02/2024 at 9:40 AM, Mr. Hooper said:

 

@Jurassic Shark

 

He already did. And so did you. (And it has nothing to do my posts here.)

 

On 12/02/2024 at 8:53 PM, Mr. Hooper said:

 

 

What do you think he lied about? What are your sources?

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

He already did. And so did you. (And it has nothing to do my posts here.)

 

 

What do you think he lied about? What are your sources?

 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

4 hours ago, Mattris said:

What do you think he lied about? What are your sources?

 

As already demonstrated, you will just completely ignore even outright proof that Lucas has lied.

[Mattris 416]

As already demonstrated, it's those like you who completely ignore factual evidence and the literal contents of the stories in favor of underestimations, assumptions, and an utter lack of logical reasoning. Only direct contradictions made by Lucas could lead one to believe that he has "lied". These statements would need to be examined on a case-by-case basis. What are they again?

[JTN 2,030]

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

On 13/02/2024 at 4:53 AM, Mr. Hooper said:

 

 

Its funny the defenses I've seen from Lucas apologists for this kind of stuff:

"He said he made the first act into a movie, but he didn't explicitly say that he turned the other two acts into the subsequent entries" - yeah, except he did.

 

"He said he made the three acts into the three films, but he doesn't say he had them ready as three feature-length screenplays" - yeah, except he did.

 

There were a couple of other apologetics I can't quite remember right now, but you get the picture.

[enderdrag64 624]

6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Its funny the defenses I've seen from Lucas apologists for this kind of stuff:

"He said he made the first act into a movie, but he didn't explicitly say that he turned the other two acts into the subsequent entries" - yeah, except he did.

 

"He said he made the three acts into the three films, but he doesn't say he had them ready as three feature-length screenplays" - yeah, except he did.

 

There were a couple of other apologetics I can't quite remember right now, but you get the picture.

Yeah I don't actually know what a rational explanation is for these statements. Even in Empire of Dreams he says that he split the movie up and only filmed the first act. But like all of the drafts for Star Wars are available to read quite easily online...

 

Even without those, loads of official sources have documented their contents quite extensively; it's quite obvious that Empire and Jedi were not written until, well, the development of Empire and Jedi. Even the plot of the original was not really outlined until the second draft, the two treatments and the rough/first draft was basically scrapped completely minus one or two key scenes.

 

The only thing I can think of is maybe he meant in the sense of reusing concepts, like how the floating city of Alderaan from the drafts of Star Wars became the Cloud City of Bespin in Empire.

 

But still in that clip he very explicitly talks about acts 2 and 3 story-wise.... 

[Chen G. 3,949]

4 minutes ago, enderdrag64 said:

Even the plot of the original was not really outlined until the second draft, the two treatments and the rough/first draft was basically scrapped completely minus one or two key scenes.

 

Even the Second Draft is not really the film as we know. Its only the third draft outline that can really be regarded as the first genuine draft to the film we know today.

 

Oddly enough, the draft that Lucas regards as this 250-page "Ur" screenplay is the Rough draft! Except the rough draft is quite succint - its shorter than the shooting script by a considerable margin. The amount of material ported from it to the other entries is in the area of 15-16 pages. Big whuff!

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

When they backtrack and label the Rey movie Episode X (and they will), expect to see old quotes of Lucas pulled out talking about how he always intended for Star Wars to be 3 6 9 12 films. 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

2 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

When they label the Rey movie Episode X (and they will), expect to see old quotes of Lucas pulled out talking about how he always intended for Star Wars to be 3 6 9 12 films. 

13. It will be 13 films because episode 12 will be split into two movies: Episode 12.1 and Episode 12.2.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

Episode XII part I: The Return of Desplat 

Episode XII part II: The Sacking of Desplat 

[Chen G. 3,949]

42 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

expect to see old quotes of Lucas pulled out talking about how he always intended for Star Wars to be 3 6 9 12 films. 

 

There's even a Kenner ad that misquoted Lucasfilm, making it seem like its 14 films! 

[Mattris 416]

"Never more than twelve."  - Kino Loy, from Andor

 

 

I think some of you are putting far too much stock in these 'drafts', works that did not have to be made public, nor are they canon.

 

What did George Lucas say that confirms he "lied"? And with what evidence can it be proven?

[enderdrag64 624]

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Oddly enough, the draft that Lucas regards as this 250-page "Ur" screenplay is the Rough draft! 

Woah really?? Where did he say this?

[Chen G. 3,949]

Well, his descriptions of this 250-page screenplay tend to include a concluding forest battle...that's the rough draft. Lucas seems particularly fond of it, because its the one he kept coming back to for ideas, be it said forest battle in Return of the Jedi, or basically all of Episode I.

[Trope 527]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

"Never more than twelve."  - Kino Loy, from Andor

I love you Mattris!

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

"Never more than twelve."  - Kino Loy, from Andor

Nope.

 

"Always two there are. No more, no less."  - Yoda, from Episode I 

[Groovygoth666 670]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Nope.

 

"Always two there are. No more, no less."  - Yoda, from Episode I 

Only two trilogies confirmed from canon sources 

[Datameister 2,044]

1 hour ago, Groovygoth666 said:

Only two trilogies confirmed from canon sources 

 

LiTeRaL cOnTeNtS

[bored 309]

2 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

Only two trilogies confirmed from canon sources 

 

I only count one trilogy as canon 

[Groovygoth666 670]

21 minutes ago, bored said:

 

I only count one trilogy as canon 

Unfortunately what Lucasfilm/Disney says is canon is canon. But I'ma let you in on a little secret, you get to decide what parts of the canon you engage with. So if there's only one trilogy you want to watch and enjoy you can, there's nothing or no one forcing you to engage with the rest of it despite it still being an official part of the franchise. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

What did George Lucas say that confirms he "lied"? And with what evidence can it be proven?

 

If you haven't figured that out yet, you really ought to study harder.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

It is funny, that Disney invented the term canon for their Star Wars approach. Isn't canon the musical form where you repeat the same verses over and over again?

[Faleel 5,353]

14 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

It is funny, that Disney invented the term canon for their Star Wars approach. Isn't canon the musical form where you repeat the same verses over and over again?

Disney didn't invent the term canon.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(basic_principle)

[GerateWohl 4,370]

6 minutes ago, Faleel said:

Disney didn't invent the term canon.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(basic_principle)

But they seem to interprete it in that musical meaning.

[Mattris 416]

11 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Nope.

 

"Always two there are. No more, no less."  - Yoda, from Episode I 

 

11 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

Only two trilogies confirmed from canon sources 

 

The first two trilogies do not tell a complete story, only a lame one with dozens of things about the lore, history, and plots left unexplained. You are aware of what they are, right?

 

10 hours ago, Datameister said:

LiTeRaL cOnTeNtS

 

It's a story being told. The words of which it's comprised tell the story. Words have definitions. Much can be garnered from these facts. Though one might have to pay attention and actually think.

 

9 hours ago, bored said:

I only count one trilogy as canon 

 

The OT? Perhaps you can make sense of why farmboy Luke Skywalker ended up being taught by two failures in their ways of the Force/Jedi... and ended up (seemingly) winning after not really learning anything.

 

8 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

Unfortunately what Lucasfilm/Disney says is canon is canon. But I'ma let you in on a little secret, you get to decide what parts of the canon you engage with. So if there's only one trilogy you want to watch and enjoy you can, there's nothing or no one forcing you to engage with the rest of it despite it still being an official part of the franchise. 

 

Anyone is free to approach Star Wars in this manner. But those doing so will be denying reality... and the rest of the story.

 

7 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

If you haven't figured that out yet, you really ought to study harder.

 

From my point of view, that might be the most ironic statement in this entire topic.

 

I was just wondering if any here could cite any confirmed George Lucas lies. I'm still waiting...

[Gabriel Bezerra 302]

14 hours ago, Mattris said:

"Never more than twelve."  - Kino Loy, from Andor

It's funny 'cause there are 12 SW movies already.

[Bespin 8,483]

It's canon, in the sense of canonical.

The term "canonical" refers to works or elements within a body of literature, art, or religious texts that are considered authoritative, authentic, or standard. In various contexts, "canonical" denotes adherence to recognized principles, norms, or standards established within a particular domain or tradition.

[mstrox 6,651]

I always thought y’all were talking about a big gun

[Bespin 8,483]

3 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I always thought y’all were talking about a big gun

 

Like in 'Trust me, it's true, or I'll shoot you with my big cannon.'

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

1 hour ago, Gabriel Bezerra said:

It's funny 'cause there are 12 SW movies already.

14 if you count the Ewok movies.

 

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

The first two trilogies do not tell a complete story, only a lame one with dozens of things about the lore, history, and plots left unexplained. You are aware of what they are, right?

Another trilogy will come eventually and when taken as a whole, all four of them still won’t tell a complete story, only a lame one with hundreds of things left unexplained. The rest of us are aware of this.

 

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

I was just wondering if any here could cite any confirmed George Lucas lies. I'm still waiting...

 

On 14/02/2024 at 8:44 PM, A. A. Ron said:

As already demonstrated, you will just completely ignore even outright proof that Lucas has lied.

 

[Datameister 2,044]

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

It's a story being told. The words of which it's comprised tell the story. Words have definitions. Much can be garnered from these facts. Though one might have to pay attention and actually think.

 

Dude … props to you for your craft. Working the common misuse of "comprised" into a holier-than-thou lecture on paying attention to the definitions of words? Masterstroke.

[Chen G. 3,949]

12 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

But they seem to interprete it in that musical meaning.

 

Canon is a term that's used within a musician's body of work as within that of any other artist: So, Beethoven has early pieces that he disavowed, so they're not part of his "canon." Rienzi is not part of the Wagnerian "canon", etc...

 

But "Canon" is also a musical form, similar to a round.

 

5 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

14 if you count the Ewok movies.

 

I'm personally of the opinion that Splinter of the Mind's Eye, The Star Wars Holiday Special and the two Ewok films should be considered as much a part of the Lucas-Star Wars oeuvre as the later Clone Wars stuff.

 

Just take a look at the Holiday Special: It had a story by Lucas, all the principal cast, Williams cues, sound by Ben Burrt, masks by Stuart Freeborn...it was a bona fide Star Wars production. So are the Ewok films.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

This thread should be shot out of a cannon. 

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

This thread should be shot out of a cannon. 

It should be printed and shot out as confetti after the 1812 Overture at Tanglewood this summer.

[bored 309]

11 hours ago, Mattris said:

The OT? Perhaps you can make sense of why farmboy Luke Skywalker ended up being taught by two failures in their ways of the Force/Jedi... and ended up (seemingly) winning after not really learning anything.

 

 

Man, crazy that Star Wars' own (co)creator wrote some bad fanfiction on the OT's backstory huh? Like why would you make Vader evil from the start and Obi-Wan and Yoda just give up? Some wacky stuff. Thank god those were just leaked scripts and no one wasted millions of dollars on those!

[Mattris 416]

On 15/02/2024 at 2:38 PM, Nick1Ø66 said:

When they backtrack and label the Rey movie Episode X (and they will), expect to see old quotes of Lucas pulled out talking about how he always intended for Star Wars to be 3 6 9 12 films. 

 

Yes, Kathleen Kennedy said, "... George initially set out to do with a kind of three act saga with these three trilogies". But what comes next won't be 'backtracking'. Along with the rest of the Star Wars fandom, you'll realize that the story was always heading in this direction. Those responsible made sure to say and do enough to keep their audience distracted from their real plans.

 

9 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Another trilogy will come eventually and when taken as a whole, all four of them still won’t tell a complete story, only a lame one with hundreds of things left unexplained. The rest of us are aware of this.

 

Things, such as?

 

6 hours ago, Datameister said:

Dude … props to you for your craft. Working the common misuse of "comprised" into a holier-than-thou lecture on paying attention to the definitions of words? Masterstroke.

 

You should also know that combinations of words yield meaning. (That's how authors can convey grander intent and substance within their stories... even across multiple volumes, across multiple decades.) Perhaps you'd be better served to assess the words of Star Wars instead of criticizing mine.

 

59 minutes ago, bored said:

Man, crazy that Star Wars' own (co)creator wrote some bad fanfiction on the OT's backstory huh? Like why would you make Vader evil from the start and Obi-Wan and Yoda just give up? Some wacky stuff. Thank god those were just leaked scripts and no one wasted millions of dollars on those!

 

Did you get anything out of the prequels? The backstory provided by Obi-Wan should have be cautionary to Luke Skywalker and the audience. But no, the movies clearly showed that Luke became a hero from humble beginnings. And a few years after he started his journey, he was victorious! What an inspirational story!

 

Honestly, I don't think you've made sense of anything. Mark my words, so many assumptions will come back to haunt you.

[Nick1Ø66 4,718]

28 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Kathleen Kennedy said, "... George initially set out to do with a kind of three act saga with these three trilogies". But what comes next won't be 'backtracking'. Along with the rest of the Star Wars fandom, you'll realize that the story was always heading in this direction. Those responsible made sure to say and do enough to keep their audience distracted from their real plans.

 

 

[Trope 527]

30 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

Yes, Kathleen Kennedy said, "... George initially set out to do with a kind of three act saga with these three trilogies". But what comes next won't be 'backtracking'. Along with the rest of the Star Wars fandom, you'll realize that the story was always heading in this direction. Those responsible made sure to say and do enough to keep their audience distracted from their real plans.

 

You should also know that combinations of words yield meaning. (That's how authors can convey grander intent and substance within their stories... even across multiple volumes, across multiple decades.) Perhaps you'd be better served to assess the words of Star Wars instead of criticizing mine.

 

Honestly, I don't think you've made sense of anything. Mark my words, so many assumptions will come back to haunt you.

"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." - Obi-Wan Kenobi, from Star Wars (1977)

 

"You must unlearn what you have learned." - Yoda, from The Empire Strikes Back (1980)

 

"Your focus determines your reality." - Qui-Gon Jinn, from Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999)

 

"You're coming with me. I'll not leave you here, I've got to save you." - Luke Skywalker, from Return of the Jedi (1983)

 

"You'll find I'm full of surprises." - Luke Skywalker, from The Empire Strikes Back (1980)

 

"Never tell me the odds!" - Han Solo, from The Empire Strikes Back (1980)

 

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." - Obi-Wan Kenobi, from Star Wars (1977)

 

"Strike me down in anger and I'll always be with you [...]" - Luke Skywalker, from Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

 

"No one's ever really gone." - Luke Skywalker, from Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

 

 

I think these few quotes from a galaxy far, far away somewhat encapsulate Mattris' attitude to the Star Wars Disenchantment thread.

[Mattris 416]

Those quotes are also among the most important of the grander Star Wars story.

[Mr. Hooper 1,792]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Those quotes are also among the most important of the grander Star Wars story.

I would also include:

 

"Move along! Move along!" - Sandtrooper, from Star Wars (1977)

[Faleel 5,353]

"There's always a bigger fish" ~ Qui-Gon Jinn

 

"I must be Frank" ~ Frank Palpatine

 

"Senator Palpatine is waiting for us" ~ Ric Olie

 

THE PHANTOM MENACE

[Trope 527]

2 minutes ago, Faleel said:

"There's always a bigger fish"

 

"I must be Frank"

 

"Senator Palpatine is waiting for us"

Sorry, are any/all of those from Lucasfilm's Star Wars films? I can't be sure unless you provide a specific character and film title. You could be making these up to distract us from the true essence and meaning of Star Wars.

[Faleel 5,353]

2 minutes ago, Trope said:

Sorry, are any/all of those from Lucasfilm's Star Wars films? I can't be sure unless you provide a specific character and film title. You could be making these up to distract us from the true essence and meaning of Star Wars.

You are right, Fixed.

[Trope 527]

On 17/02/2024 at 12:50 AM, Faleel said:

Ric Olie

Holy shit, I didn't even know that ship captain had a name!

 

Sorry, I mean... What a well-written and memorable character Ric Olié was in Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace.

[Faleel 5,353]

9 minutes ago, Trope said:

Holy shit, I didn't even know that ship captain had a name!

I only know it because it became a meme/inside joke/actuall member screename on originaltrilogy.com

[Datameister 2,044]

"You catch on pretty quick." -Ric Olié

 

Ironclad confirmation that most Star Wars fans understand exactly what Star Wars is about. The literal words have definitions, and the definitions come together to create meaning, and the meaning is irrefutable fact.

[Faleel 5,353]

28 minutes ago, Datameister said:

"You catch on pretty quick." -Ric Olié

 

Ironclad confirmation that most Star Wars fans understand exactly what Star Wars is about. The literal words have definitions, and the definitions come together to create meaning, and the meaning is irrefutable fact.

 

"This is no fantasy, no careless product of wild imagination. No, my good friends." ~ Jor-El, Superman The Movie aka Star Wars Episode IV.1/2.

[Mattris 416]

37 minutes ago, Datameister said:

"You catch on pretty quick." -Ric Olié

 

Ironclad confirmation that most Star Wars fans understand exactly what Star Wars is about. The literal words have definitions, and the definitions come together to create meaning, and the meaning is irrefutable fact.

 

If that's the only quote you have to go on, I think you have some work to do.

 

To "most Star Wars fans", any deeper substance and valuable meaning of the story has seemingly passed them by. So far, Star Wars seems to teach only that 'Family/friends/aligned peoples should stick together to defeat/kill/destroy bad guys. Love wins... at least until history repeats itself in the next generation, at which time further defeating/killing/destroying becomes necessary.'

 

The majority of fans have hive-mind assumed so much about the story that, when applied to an overall assessment, simply doesn't make sense of it. (This is especially true once the Saga expanded to six episodes. Even more so with nine in the bag.)

 

Not only are the fans seemingly unaware of what they don't know, they don't seem to care that the story could be something else than they thought it was. It simply hasn't occurred to them what the story must  tell so that it actually makes sense. If the Star Wars story does eventually include these critically-important things, perhaps it can be a story worthy of remembrance.

 

 

One such assumption:  After betraying Han and Leia, Lando revealed to them that "Lord Vader set a trap" for Luke. What exactly was the trap?

[ThePenitentMan1 744]

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

One such assumption:  After betraying Han and Leia, Lando revealed to them that "Lord Vader set a trap" for Luke. What exactly was the trap?

 

The... carbon-freezing chamber?

 

The one they were about to use on Han?

 

To test if the process works so that they could use it on Luke?

 

So that they could bring him to The Emperor?

 

So that the Emperor can turn Luke to the Dark Side?

 

The film literally states outright that this is the Empire's plan.