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The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

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@Arpy In my mind, the moment where Kylo decides to kill Han is where his internal conflict ends. He was conflicted prior to that moment, but after that point, he became evil, and rightly so: even Vader couldn't bring himself to kill his son, but Kylo did kill his father. That was, for me, the moment where the sequel triogy started forge its own path, and I think Johnson went with it, showing Ben going to kill his uncle, and failing not because of his hesitation but because his uncle was an astral projection. Its not established whether he knows his mother survived or not, but at the end of The Last Jedi he orders her base be occupied with "no quarter".

 

Usually, I can relate to and even like opinions other than my own, but in this case I just can't. I think its morally reprehensible to even contemplate the idea of Kylo Ren being redeemed.

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7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

@Arpy In my mind, the moment where Kylo decides to kill Han is where his internal conflict ends. He was conflicted prior to that moment, but after that point, he became evil, and rightly so: even Vader couldn't bring himself to kill his son, but Kylo did kill his father. That was, for me, the moment where the sequel triogy started forge its own path, and I think Johnson went with it, showing Ben going to kill his uncle, and failing not because of his hesitation but because his uncle was an astral projection. Its not established whether he knows his mother survived or not, but at the end of The Last Jedi he orders her base be occupied with "no quarter".

 

Usually, I can relate to and even like opinions other than my own, but in this case I just can't. I think its morally reprehensible to even contemplate the idea of Kylo Ren being redeemed.


But isn’t the whole of TLJ about Kylo Ren fighting with his internal conflict? Early on, Snoke tells him that killing Han split his soul to the core. Later, he is visibly conflicted about pulling the trigger on his own mother and in fact does not do it (it ends up being some anonymous guy who does it). 
 

Throughout TLJ, Kylo is clearly trying to talk himself into believing that he is evil. Unfortunately, Rey keeps calling him out on it. And after losing his mentor Snoke, after an endless chase after Rebellion remnants who refuse to die, Kylo latches onto Luke’s surprise appearance as a means to vindicate his path up to that point: he needs to blame Luke for everything (which he does) and needs to destroy him with everything he’s got in order to prove to himself he’s in the right. But Luke humiliates him (Kylo can’t kill a force projection) and taunts him about his path into evil. And the fact that Luke’s feint allows the rebels time to escape can only have humiliated him further. 
 

The whole time, Kylo is pushing against the tide by trying to be evil. It wouldn’t surprise me to see him in TROS change allegiance in the final act, after being gaslighted by Palpatine through the first three-quarters of the film. He doesn’t necessarily need to become “good” all of a sudden—he can (and should) simply want revenge for being lied to this whole time and being manipulated into killing his father (and mother too, nearly).

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There are two ways to read Kylo's arc in The Last Jedi: either he evolves (techincally, devolves) into an evil villain, or he gets revealed as such, having been just that ever since he killed his father.

 

In either case, he ends up as evil. It strikes me that he's fooling both Snoke and Rey throughout the film, having decided to overthrow Snoke sometime early in the film. Its certainly established that he can fool Snoke. and he's certainly got something planned when he talks to Rey in the elevator. That leaves his refusal to kill his mother as his only true piece of internal conflict in the film.

 

Either way, the point is that he ends the film a villain. That he aims to "destroy her, and you, and everything", that Luke "can't save him" (as he later admits to Kylo himself), that Rey shuts the door on their Force-connection - everything points to that. I think its one of the main fan expectations Johnson aimed to subvert, and for one I'm all for it. I think its very faithful to the closing act of The Force Awakens.

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You're right about Kylo fooling Snoke -- I was mistaken in saying Kylo "lost" Snoke, since it was he who killed him. But he probably wasn't fooling Rey. He probably can't fool her -- after all, he lost to her in the forest in TFA and couldn't get her to remotely consider joining his side, despite everything he said or tried in TLJ. She's preternaturally, freakishly strong with the Force. But that doesn't mean he and Rey couldn't team up to defeat Snoke for their own reasons. Throughout TLJ, all I see are hints that Kylo isn't quite living up to his potential as a truly evil guy.

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16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Either way, the point is that he ends the film a villain. That he aims to "destroy her, and you, and everything", that Luke "can't save him" (as he later admits to Kylo himself), that Rey shuts the door on their Force-connection - everything points to that. I think its one of the main fan expectations Johnson aimed to subvert, and for one I'm all for it. I think its very faithful to the closing act of The Force Awakens.

My thinking is, while Luke said that he can't save him, that doesn't rule out someone else or even Kylo himself from saving him. At the end of TLJ, Kylo is the villain, yes, but not irredeemably so. All his declarative statements about destruction are just words (possibly spoken to convince himself, since no one else seems to buy it). Right up to the end of TLJ, Kylo is portrayed as a loose cannon without much in the way of a track record of success.

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What I want to know is if the Emperor has been around this whole time, then what was the point of Snoke? Was Snoke actually the Emperor all along?  He seemed to be quite powerful...moreso than the Emperor in some instances.

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5 minutes ago, Balahkay said:

What I want to know is if the Emperor has been around this whole time

 

I don't think he was. It seems an overly-eager reported just about forced Kathleen Kennedy into saying this as she was walking away.

 

It wasn't beyond George Lucas to resort to outright forgery to pretend that he had the Star Wars series figured out, and while Kennedy has generally been more frank on the matter, I wouldn't put misinforming the fans below her.

5 minutes ago, Balahkay said:

What I want to know is if the Emperor has been around this whole time

 

I don't think he was. It seems an overly-eager reported just about forced Kathleen Kennedy into saying this as she was walking away.

 

It wasn't beyond George Lucas to resort to outright forgery to pretend that he had the Star Wars series figured out, and while Kennedy has generally been more frank on the matter, I wouldn't put misinforming the fans below her.

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4 hours ago, Demodex said:

It still seems odd to me that people think Vader can be redeemed but Kylo can't. 

Yes! Vader killed many Jedi, even YOUNGLINGS, and he was still redeemed in the end.

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4 hours ago, Demodex said:

It still seems odd to me that people think Vader can be redeemed but Kylo can't. 

By ROTJ Vader killed one or 2 rebel pilots, that one rebel he tossed at a wall, and two imperial officers. He didn't even really kill Luke's father! It also cannot be said that he killed Obi-wan. Obi-wan just disappeared at will on his own.

 

There was no Tusken raider massacre, no youngling massacre, and he definitely was not a super-killer of Jedi as implied by prequel-era EU.

 

Meanwhile Kylo Ren slaughtered Luke's other students, killed that unarmed old guy at the beginning of TFA, killed his father, nearly killed his mother, and would have killed his uncle if he could (twice). Whereas Vader was clearly manipulated by the Emperor and all-powerful Empire, being just a henchman of a totalitarian regime, however cool and seemingly in control of himself, Kylo is a nut, with Snoke, or without Snoke.

 

After the prequels, I find it icky to consider Vader redeemable.  In fact, even within the old EU, he was never considered such. He was a shameful legacy to Leia & Luke, and a legendary monster to the Galaxy. Kylo is a similar madman.

 

That being said, my wish would be Reylo and his turning, and then his death without full redemption.

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13 hours ago, Chen G. said:

@Arpy In my mind, the moment where Kylo decides to kill Han is where his internal conflict ends. He was conflicted prior to that moment, but after that point, he became evil, and rightly so: even Vader couldn't bring himself to kill his son, but Kylo did kill his father. That was, for me, the moment where the sequel triogy started forge its own path, and I think Johnson went with it, showing Ben going to kill his uncle, and failing not because of his hesitation but because his uncle was an astral projection. Its not established whether he knows his mother survived or not, but at the end of The Last Jedi he orders her base be occupied with "no quarter".

 

Usually, I can relate to and even like opinions other than my own, but in this case I just can't. I think its morally reprehensible to even contemplate the idea of Kylo Ren being redeemed.

We go into The Last Jedi seeing how conflicted he is, so it's clearly not as straightforward after killing Han. 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Modest Expectations said:

By ROTJ Vader killed one or 2 rebel pilots, that one rebel he tossed at a wall, and two imperial officers. He didn't even really kill Luke's father! It also cannot be said that he killed Obi-wan. Obi-wan just disappeared at will on his own.

 

There was no Tusken raider massacre, no youngling massacre, and he definitely was not a super-killer of Jedi as implied by prequel-era EU.

 

This.

 

Plus, in terms of characters we know and care about, Vader only killed Obi Wan. Kylo killed Han Solo, one of the central characters of the series, and would have killed Luke Skywalker had he not been an astral projection.

 

For him to be redeemed is preposterous.

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So I finally understood everything.

 

We already know that Anakin is the creation of Plagueis AND Sidious.

 

What we have to understand now, it’s that he was not the Chosen One. No no...

 

Rey, is the Chosen One (so her lineage is not important, we got the real answer in TLJ!)

 

She was litterally chosen, rewatch TFA and TLJ. She had visions of the past about Luke and Kylo Ren, even the sacred Jedi texts are calling to her. 

 

Snoke is a nobody, but he found the black diamond containing Palpatine’s essence. From this time his goal, like Palpatine before him, was to make sure that a Skywalker stays on the Dark Side, because it’s The Sith ultimate weapon. Oh Leia had a child? What a perfect target!

 

Then we know that, like Obiwan who was unable to kill Anakin, Luke was unable to kill Ben. That’s history repeating. Very nice!

 

I don’t know how they’ll manage to kill Leia, but she’ll die, lefting Ben the last living Skywalker.

 

So the last step for Ben to reach the ultimate power is to find that Black diamond, containing Palpatine’s essence and teachings. But Rey we’ll also be on the quest... and so Finn, Poe and Chewie ( thanks to threepio sacrifice).

 

The black diamond will be destroyed.

 

And now, the end of the movie? Well, the ascension of the last Skywalker: Ben Skywalker!!!

 

Who’ll finally meet his grandfather...

 

Yes, The movie will end with a cameo by Hayden Christensen.  

 

Tadam! 

 

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2 hours ago, Bespin said:

We already know that Anakin is the creation of Plagueis AND Sidious.

What?

 

2 hours ago, Bespin said:

Snoke is a nobody, but he found the black diamond containing Palpatine’s essence.

What again?

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I see nothing about Plagueis in that picture, unless it's maze-face.

 

And no, I don't read the comics. Plot in the Star Wars movies should not be dependent on the comics. Or video games. Or any such nonsense. 

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2 hours ago, Bespin said:

About Anakin, we already had our theories, but you didn’t saw the cartoon?

 

 

You don't need a cartoon for that thing: its in the bloody screenplay to Revenge of the Sith!

 

I think its a stupid idea. But then, its not as stupid as Kylo Ren being redeemed. Both seem to be runner-ups for many people in this film.

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Well, Anakin being the ultimate weapon "artificially" created by Plagueis and Sidious is not stupid, that's the foundation of the 9 movies...

 

And we got enough hints in the prequels, you can't really say it's a surprise.

 

Résultats de recherche d'images pour « your feelings it's true »

 

 

Résultats de recherche d'images pour « misread the prophecy yoda »

 

Totally, Master Yoda...

 

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4 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

I don't think any comic books should ever be considered canon. Comics tend to be where the threads of stories untangle and turn to shit.

 

1 hour ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Agreed.  The same goes for books and video games.

 

Disney and Lucasfilm disagree. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Thekthithm said:

 

The key quote for those who don't wanna scan through there:

 

Quote

Although George Lucas permitted the Expanded Universe to run parallel to his personal Star Wars creations, he never considered its stories to be part of his official canon. As explained by Pablo Hidalgo in the 2012 The Essential Reader's Companion, "Though these [Expanded Universe] stories may get his stamp of approval, they don't enter his canon unless they are depicted cinematically in one of his projects. That said, unless something occurs in a canon project to directly contradict a published source, it can reliably be said to have occurred."

 

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16 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

 

The key quote for those who don't wanna scan through there:

 

 

That last part = anything in the EU that doesn't contradict canon is technically canon. 

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38 minutes ago, Arpy said:

That last part = anything in the EU that doesn't contradict canon is technically canon. 

 

What does that even mean? What if some obscure EU novel has one chapter that contradicts a movie, but the rest of that novel doesn't? Is the whole novel non-canon or just that chapter? And what if that novel is important continuity-wise to a series of other novels? Must it be ignored in the context of that novel series if it has one bit that contradicts a movie?

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