John Williams’ First and Last Great Score

[Thor 7,513]

First: NOT WITH MY WIFE YOU DON'T

Last: MUNICH

[JTN 2,031]

4 hours ago, Thor said:

First: NOT WITH MY WIFE YOU DON'T

Last: MUNICH

Munich is an interesting choice. 2005 was a special year for JW. Four scores (WotW, RotS, MoaG, Munich), all of them amazing. 

[Thor 7,513]

Indeed, his last great year. All scores top shelf, but MUNICH was the last to premiere.

[GerateWohl 4,370]

5 hours ago, Thor said:

Last: MUNICH

The only reason for that, that I can think of is, your taste in music changed drastically at the beginning of 2006.

 

Otherwise, why would one consider Munich a great score and for example Lincoln or The Post or War Horse or The Force Awakens not?

 

I know, discussions about musical taste between us two might be slightly pointless. But sometimes I still try to understand. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

3 minutes ago, GerateWohl said:

The Post

 

[Thor 7,513]

2 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Otherwise, why would one consider Munich a great score and for example Lincoln or The Post or War Horse or The Force Awakens not?

 

They're fine, but as I've said before, I think something happened to Williams or his style  in the three years of film music absence between 2005 and 2008. The Williams who returned was not the same as before. Often more cellular and motivic. I think there are many nice things in the years since, whether on a track level or even whole albums (especially WAR HORSE, THE POST and THE FABELMANS), but nothing that matches the greatness level of those 2005 efforts.

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

1 minute ago, Thor said:

The Williams who returned was not the same as before. Often more cellular and motivic.

 

He just didn't give a damn... until The Post.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

First: Tom Sawyer

Last: The Rise of Skywalker 

[GerateWohl 4,370]

15 minutes ago, Thor said:

Often more cellular and motivic.

That's not true for Lincoln for example. With Malice Towards None is one of Williams' most long lined americana themes (and in my view his best).

 

And - yeah - that's again the difference between us two. I saw that more cellular motivic approach as progress and absolutely adore what he did and does with it.

[JTN 2,031]

2 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Otherwise, why would one consider Munich a great score and for example Lincoln or The Post or War Horse or The Force Awakens not?

I wouldn't call MUNICH his last great score, either, imho his last masterpiece was MEMOIRS OF A GEISHA. Snubbing him for that was unforgivable.  

 

Lincoln and The Force Awakens are great scores in my opinion too, TFA being his last truly great score imho (not a masterpiece, though). The Post and War Horse not so much, but both of them have great cues. 

[Thor 7,513]

1 hour ago, GerateWohl said:

That's not true for Lincoln for example. With Malice Towards None is one of Williams' most long lined americana themes (and in my view his best).

 

Yes, hence why I said "often". The case of LINCOLN is rather different -- it's more a type of Americana that Williams does in his sleep. I mean, it's a fine score indeed, but nothing that would be considered a top great candidate on the Williams-o-meter, IMO, compared to those 2005 efforts. Or even earlier, superior Americana efforts.

 

Strangely, he applied an Americana approach to THE BFG too, a bit peculiar for such a quintessentially British story.

[bollemanneke 3,349]

First: Jane Eyre. Can't believe how I didn't think of it earlier.

Last: HP1, pending more expansions maybe.

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

On 26/12/2023 at 4:03 PM, Datameister said:

In all fairness, I have close to zero familiarity with Jane Eyre, so it's possible I might agree with you once properly educated. 😊

 

Please immediately start with this 15 minute suite:

 

And then immediately buy the new Mike Matessino edition from Quartet Records:

https://quartetrecords.com/product/heidi-jane-eyre-2-cd/

 

And if I may be so bold as to plug myself, here's a podcast episode I did with @Trumpeteer which extols the virtues of what I consider to be my favorite Williams score!

https://thebatonpodcast.podbean.com/e/episode-25-jane-eyre/

 

If you like later Williams scores from Dracula to Prisoner of Azkaban, or like the love theme Across the Stars from Attack of the Clones, this score will be right up your alley.

 

Yavar

[mstrox 6,651]

First:  WAR HORSE

Latest:  WAR HORSE

[Trope 527]

First: Schindler’s List

Last: Harry Potter

 

At least according to some fine folks over at the Hans Zimmer forum. Apparently JW’s biggest problem is his music descends into aimless orchestral noise far too often…

[GerateWohl 4,370]

5 minutes ago, Trope said:

First: Schindler’s List

Last: Harry Potter

 

At least according to some fine folks over at the Hans Zimmer forum. Apparently JW’s biggest problem is his music descends into aimless orchestral noise far too often…

I guess, it is hard to be a Hans Zimmer fan if Williams' music isn't too complicated for you.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Heidi and Jane Eyre are the first scores that are recognizably written in the kind of style I love from J Dubs. Jaws is the first score of his that I would call a masterpiece.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, The Force Awakens is the most recent Williams score I would call a masterpiece, but I am still completely comfortable calling the other 2 Star Wars sequels and Dial of Destiny great scores as well.

[QuartalHarmony 543]

1 hour ago, Trope said:

First: Schindler’s List

Last: Harry Potter

 

At least according to some fine folks over at the Hans Zimmer forum. Apparently JW’s biggest problem is his music descends into aimless orchestral noise far too often…

And no-one could ever accuse a Zimmer score of descending into aimless noise, could they?

 

Hello, pot, I’m kettle. What colour might you be today?

[Yavar Moradi 2,599]

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

Heidi and Jane Eyre are the first scores that are recognizably written in the kind of style I love from J Dubs.

 

This isn't recognizably written by JW to your ears, or just not in a style you love?

 

(I personally love it more than Heidi, to be honest.)

 

Yavar

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

This isn't recognizably written by JW to your ears, or just not in a style you love?

 

(I personally love it more than Heidi, to be honest.)

 

Yavar

 

It's just not in a style that I love. I like it well enough (and have it on my phone actually), just not as much as his later material.

[Schilkeman 964]

19 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

And - yeah - that's again the difference between us two. I saw that more cellular motivic approach as progress and absolutely adore what he did and does with it.

I agree. His late style is so organic and free. His transitions so smooth you don’t even know they’re happening. He has fully absorbed all influences and precedents, and created the most unique-in-voice style of his career. It’s like late Beethoven.

[JTN 2,031]

No wonder, he reads Beethoven scores before going to sleep.

[JTN 2,031]

@ragoz350It’s true, JW talks about it in several interviews. 

[JTN 2,031]

      @Jay

[Chen G. 3,949]

On 27/12/2023 at 11:56 PM, Not Mr. Big said:

It muddies up the narrative.  Too many themes that basically have the same associations (Lost Boys Chase/The Banquet, Stick with Me/Hook-napped) or fulfill the same role emotionally (Childhood/Mothers)

 

Stay away from Tristan, then!

 

More and more, I find this kind of treatment to have a much more inherent musicality compared to the more "lexical" approach of "this figure going up in major means X, going down in minor means Y, going up in minor means Z..."

[JTN 2,031]

@Jay Still don't want to write down your choices? Come on, it was Christmas a few days ago, my birthday was yesterday and tomorrow it's New Year's Eve. We'd be glad to read your choices. I presonally would be.

[JTN 2,031]

@Jay…

 

 

 

[Garrett 153]

First masterpiece: Daddy-O

 

Last masterpiece: Towering Inferno

 

Last good score: Midway

 

After Towering Inferno, John Williams changed for the worse. He was never the same after that, in my opinion. It seems that once he reached his mid-40’s and entered middle age, he lost the energy and vigor of his youth that had made his music so special.

[JTN 2,031]

Yeah, he wrote all that mediocre dull, energyless scores later like Jaws, Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Superman: The Movie, The Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, E.T., Return of the Jedi, Temple of Doom, Empire of the Sun, The Last Crusade, Home Alone, Hook, Jurassic Park and Schindler’s List. 
 

PS: Oh, it was a “joke”. God I hope so.  It’s Sunday, I’m still half asleep. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

First great score: Back to the Future

Last great score: Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves

[JTN 2,031]

56 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

First great score: Back to the Future

Last great score: Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves

W-what??

[Jurassic Shark 12,079]

According to 90s illegal downloading.

[Garrett 153]

On 24/3/2024 at 12:54 AM, JTN said:

Yeah, he wrote all that mediocre dull, energyless scores later like Jaws, Star Wars, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Superman: The Movie, The Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark, E.T., Return of the Jedi, Temple of Doom, Empire of the Sun, The Last Crusade, Home Alone, Hook, Jurassic Park and Schindler’s List. 
 

PS: Oh, it was a “joke”. God I hope so.  It’s Sunday, I’m still half asleep. 

Some of those scores are okay. Schindler’s list is the worst, because it is too sad. Of all the ones you mentioned, I think the best may be Star Wars. But even there, you can already begin to see the decline.

 

It’s interesting to note that over the years, John Williams would go on to rewrite every theme that he wrote for the original Star Wars movie, almost like an acknowledgment of the insufficiency of that score.

 

In 1980, realizing that the imperial motif from Episode IV was too short and bland, he scrapped it and wrote the Imperial March.

While he originally wrote a love theme for Luke and Leia, he was forced to write a more appropriate theme for them in 1983 due to a failure to consider upcoming plot developments.

 

He replaced the old theme for Luke with a more suitable motif for the character in 2017.

 

Apparently forgetting to compose a theme for Han, John finally got around to it in 2018.

 

And then in 2022, after years of trying to make Ben Kenobi’s theme work, he decided to cut his losses and write a better theme for Ben.

 

Thus, John Williams has now scrapped and replaced every single theme from the first Star Wars movie, which is really the ultimate recognition of one’s own failures.

 

 

John has never returned to the glory of the Lost in Space days…

 

When was the last time he wrote something as funky as Miles on Wheels?

 

 

The John Towner Touch is a classic, but there’s still no word on when John will release his next jazz album.

 

 

Looking forward to the 2028 Olympics though. That seems to hold some promise.

[Tom 4,664]

On 23/03/2024 at 10:30 PM, Garrett said:

First masterpiece: Daddy-O

 

Last masterpiece: Towering Inferno

 

Last good score: Midway

 

After Towering Inferno, John Williams changed for the worse. He was never the same after that, in my opinion. It seems that once he reached his mid-40’s and entered middle age, he lost the energy and vigor of his youth that had made his music so special.

Wouldn't this post make more sense a week from now?