What was John Williams' first sign of true greatness?

[Sandor 797]

Of course Jaws propelled Williams into super-stardom, but what work/score/theme would you consider Williams' first sign of true greatness?

For me probably Jane Eyre or Images.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

The Reivers is the first true "John Williams" score for me.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

CE3K

[publicist 4,643]

JANE EYRE, IMAGES, JAWS.

[indy4 155]

The Reivers or Not With My Wife You Don't

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Jane Eyre.

[Stempel 136]

Jane Eyre

Heidi

The Reivers

[Thor 7,504]

I think you can hear the greatness already in THE SECRET WAYS (1961), his first "serious score" -- especially that main title theme which foreshadows the ostinato from "Duel of the Fates" almost 40 years later. You could hear this side of Williams throughout the 60s when he wasn't just doing comedies. Like NONE BUT THE BRAVE (1965), THE KILLERS (1964), THE RARE BREED (1966) and quite a few of the TV shows.

But like many others, I consider THE REIVERS (1969) the massive breakthrough as a 'serious' film composer. And a personal favourite of mine from this period.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Probably Munich. He was a bit of a midrange composer before that.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

This new SW movie may make or break his career. Even Spielberg ditched him before he could make his mark.

[Quintus 5,399]

Jaws, but the recording never did do the score full justice. So Star Wars.

[Bespin 8,482]

When we listen to the first scores of JW, I think we see a great difference when we arrive to Star Wars and CE3K.

The score is not anymore a collection of little pieces joined together, it's now a whole, a complex oeuvre.

[Thor 7,504]

When we listen to the first scores of JW, I think we see a great difference when we arrive to CE3K.

The score is not anymore a collection of little pieces joined together, it's now a whole, an oeuvre.

You could see that WAY before CE3K -- even back in the 60s. But most definitely on display in JAWS, which is one of the most 'whole' and unified musical scores ever.

[Bespin 8,482]

When we listen to the first scores of JW, I think we see a great difference when we arrive to CE3K.

The score is not anymore a collection of little pieces joined together, it's now a whole, an oeuvre.

You could see that WAY before CE3K -- even back in the 60s. But most definitely on display in JAWS, which is one of the most 'whole' and unified musical scores ever.

Jaws is very good, but I must say I'm not an expert of this score... There is the ta-dam... there is this pretty little fugue and the chase music, two marvellous classical cues... but an stylistic oeuvre of the scale of CE3K, a work that would announce what will follow, really?

Wait a minute does CE3K came out after or before Star Wars?

Because I will choose Star Wars if it came out first in 1977.

EDIT : Star Wars came out in may 1977, CE3K, in november. So I pick Star Wars.

[Thor 7,504]

Yeah -- JAWS is a benchmark of 'unified', thematic scoring -- far more than STAR WARS, IMO. I think it's wrong to go digging up for 'firsts' as late as the mid and late 70s. Everything that defined who Williams would be as a composer is already present in the 60s in various forms and shapes, IMO. By the time 1977 came around, he was already a 45-year-old veteran.

[Bespin 8,482]

By the time 1977 came around, he was already a 45-year-old veteran.

1977.

If he was an ancient classical music composer, one could speak of the begining of his maturity period.

[Uni 306]

Birth.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

That was by Alexandre Desplat!

[King Mark 3,631]

Lost in Space

[Tom 4,658]

Essay for Strings.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Well including concert pieces I'd say the flute concerto is the first where his distinct language peaks its head out. Then CE3K. I can't agree with Images because it's masterful on the avant-garde side but the tonal stuff is a bit bland for me - there isn't a real balance yet. Same goes for The Poseidon Adventure, Black Sunday, and even Jaws. Not until Close Encounters did that unique synthesis of his become very apparent and truly fluent. Jane Eyre is a good contender though.

I've always thought of 3:40 as the moment when the real John Williams truly arrived.

[EdwardHall 30]

I love his early 70s scores, The Paper Chase, Earthquake, and The Towering Inferno, but they are all heavily infused with jazz. In my opinion John Williams true greatness did not appear until Jaws, when he unleashed the full power of the symphony orchestra to support and complement the images on the screen.

[Thor 7,504]

You guys REALLY need to revisit -- or perhaps visit for the first time -- some of Williams' 60s ouput, especially the more serious stuff!

THAT is where he came into his own (as most composers do in their late twenties and early thirties). That he had later developments and progressions is another issue altogether. I assumed this was about FIRST SIGNS.

[Wojo 2,453]

I don't own any Johnny Williams scores. I sold the few I had for some beer money.

[Thor 7,504]

Too bad! That's the decade he was the most dynamic!

[Wojo 2,453]

It was good beer.

[Thor 7,504]

I can dig that.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

You guys REALLY need to revisit -- or perhaps visit for the first time -- some of Williams' 60s ouput, especially the more serious stuff!

THAT is where he came into his own (as most composers do in their late twenties and early thirties). That he had later developments and progressions is another issue altogether. I assumed this was about FIRST SIGNS.

I'm quite familiar with them. I don't hear it.

For the record, John Corigliano agrees with me.

[Thor 7,504]

You guys REALLY need to revisit -- or perhaps visit for the first time -- some of Williams' 60s ouput, especially the more serious stuff!

THAT is where he came into his own (as most composers do in their late twenties and early thirties). That he had later developments and progressions is another issue altogether. I assumed this was about FIRST SIGNS.

I'm quite familiar with them. I don't hear it.

For the record, John Corigliano agrees with me.

Corigliano sucks!

Seriously, though, nice to see we're back on track with the disagreeing.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Well including concert pieces I'd say the flute concerto is the first where his distinct language peaks its head out. Then CE3K. I can't agree with Images because it's masterful on the avant-garde side but the tonal stuff is a bit bland for me - there isn't a real balance yet. Same goes for The Poseidon Adventure, Black Sunday, and even Jaws. Not until Close Encounters did that unique synthesis of his become very apparent and truly fluent. Jane Eyre is a good contender though.

I've always thought of 3:40 as the moment when the real John Williams truly arrived.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Well including concert pieces I'd say the flute concerto is the first where his distinct language peaks its head out. Then CE3K. I can't agree with Images because it's masterful on the avant-garde side but the tonal stuff is a bit bland for me - there isn't a real balance yet. Same goes for The Poseidon Adventure, Black Sunday, and even Jaws. Not until Close Encounters did that unique synthesis of his become very apparent and truly fluent. Jane Eyre is a good contender though.

I've always thought of 3:40 as the moment when the real John Williams truly arrived.

LOL exactly.

[Cerebral Cortex 3,357]

The Reivers, Jane Eyre, and The Cowboys.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Cinderella Liberty

[Andy 4,128]

Potential? Jane Eyre and Towering Inferno.

Greatness? Jaws

Mastery? Star Wars

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Heidi - The Miracle.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

JANE EYRE, IMAGES, JAWS.

Every once in a while we agree.

[John Takis 206]

Heidi - The Miracle.

Perhaps my opinion is colored by the time I spent working on the most recent release of this score for Quartet Records (now sadly out of print), but if we're talking about the earliest "first sign of true greatness," I think 1968's HEIDI -- one of the first scores to bear the "John Williams" screen credit, as opposed to "Johnny Williams" -- absolutely has to be part of the conversation. One can certainly point to excellent scores in the years prior to HEIDI, both comic (FITZWILLY) and dramatic (THE RARE BREED). But HEIDI distinguishes itself for several reasons. To begin, the rich literary source material provided Williams with what was, at that point in his career, perhaps his broadest canvas yet. We have the poignant figure of the bereaved grandfather, solitary and meditative, but we also have joyous scenes of the young heroine at play among the hills. We experience a tender family drama, tinged with heartache and a touch of romance, but this plays out against the vast magnificence of the Alpine setting. One of the things that distinguishes Williams as a composer is his ability to unite the epic and the intimate, seemingly without effort, and that is very much a key feature of HEIDI. The range of the picture also means that we get a satisfyingly broad selection of characteristic "Williams-isms" -- his soaring French horn lines, his rich harmonic writing, his playful and intricate scherzos. We even get a gorgeous main theme set to lyrics. But Marian is correct: what puts the score over the top -- what really points to the "true greatness" to come -- is the aptly titled track "The Miracle," which provides a breathtaking glimpse of Williams in full religioso mode. It is a stunning cue in any context, and coming as it does at the climax of an already superb dramatic score, it reinforces HEIDI in my mind as an important milestone of Williams' early career. Not for nothing did this score earn Williams his first Emmy. (This was, in fact, his first major industry award; though he had been honored with several high-profile nominations, including an Academy Award nomination for his work with Andre Previn on 1967's VALLEY OF THE DOLLS, HEIDI was his first big win.)

Listen here and see if you disagree:

https://youtu.be/qaGRKU2HB80?t=11m38s

[Incanus 5,714]

Yes Heidi is certainly a score that shows those signs of the coming greatness. Well put Mr. Takis.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm sure TGP and KK will disagree.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Most people in this thread disagree with each other....

[Incanus 5,714]

Amicable consensus is so boring. We want strife!

[A24 4,333]

Most people in this thread disagree with each other....

That means none of it is true. We need a poll to sort it out.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Heidi - The Miracle.

Perhaps my opinion is colored by the time I spent working on the most recent release of this score for Quartet Records (now sadly out of print), but if we're talking about the earliest "first sign of true greatness," I think 1968's HEIDI -- one of the first scores to bear the "John Williams" screen credit, as opposed to "Johnny Williams" -- absolutely has to be part of the conversation. One can certainly point to excellent scores in the years prior to HEIDI, both comic (FITZWILLY) and dramatic (THE RARE BREED). But HEIDI distinguishes itself for several reasons. To begin, the rich literary source material provided Williams with what was, at that point in his career, perhaps his broadest canvas yet. We have the poignant figure of the bereaved grandfather, solitary and meditative, but we also have joyous scenes of the young heroine at play among the hills. We experience a tender family drama, tinged with heartache and a touch of romance, but this plays out against the vast magnificence of the Alpine setting. One of the things that distinguishes Williams as a composer is his ability to unite the epic and the intimate, seemingly without effort, and that is very much a key feature of HEIDI. The range of the picture also means that we get a satisfyingly broad selection of characteristic "Williams-isms" -- his soaring French horn lines, his rich harmonic writing, his playful and intricate scherzos. We even get a gorgeous main theme set to lyrics. But Marian is correct: what puts the score over the top -- what really points to the "true greatness" to come -- is the aptly titled track "The Miracle," which provides a breathtaking glimpse of Williams in full religioso mode. It is a stunning cue in any context, and coming as it does at the climax of an already superb dramatic score, it reinforces HEIDI in my mind as an important milestone of Williams' early career. Not for nothing did this score earn Williams his first Emmy. (This was, in fact, his first major industry award; though he had been honored with several high-profile nominations, including an Academy Award nomination for his work with Andre Previn on 1967's VALLEY OF THE DOLLS, HEIDI was his first big win.)

Listen here and see if you disagree:

https://youtu.be/qaGRKU2HB80?t=11m38s

I disagree.

While it is true that Heidi shows some of the technical and stylistic hallmarks which would make him a household name, the score doesn't have any of the brilliance of those later scores. Which is the real mark of true greatness.

Heidi is an interesting entry in Williams' career. but little more then that. Jane Eyre is a far more convincing candidate as a first sign of greatness.

[Incanus 5,714]

Heidi - The Miracle.

Perhaps my opinion is colored by the time I spent working on the most recent release of this score for Quartet Records (now sadly out of print), but if we're talking about the earliest "first sign of true greatness," I think 1968's HEIDI -- one of the first scores to bear the "John Williams" screen credit, as opposed to "Johnny Williams" -- absolutely has to be part of the conversation. One can certainly point to excellent scores in the years prior to HEIDI, both comic (FITZWILLY) and dramatic (THE RARE BREED). But HEIDI distinguishes itself for several reasons. To begin, the rich literary source material provided Williams with what was, at that point in his career, perhaps his broadest canvas yet. We have the poignant figure of the bereaved grandfather, solitary and meditative, but we also have joyous scenes of the young heroine at play among the hills. We experience a tender family drama, tinged with heartache and a touch of romance, but this plays out against the vast magnificence of the Alpine setting. One of the things that distinguishes Williams as a composer is his ability to unite the epic and the intimate, seemingly without effort, and that is very much a key feature of HEIDI. The range of the picture also means that we get a satisfyingly broad selection of characteristic "Williams-isms" -- his soaring French horn lines, his rich harmonic writing, his playful and intricate scherzos. We even get a gorgeous main theme set to lyrics. But Marian is correct: what puts the score over the top -- what really points to the "true greatness" to come -- is the aptly titled track "The Miracle," which provides a breathtaking glimpse of Williams in full religioso mode. It is a stunning cue in any context, and coming as it does at the climax of an already superb dramatic score, it reinforces HEIDI in my mind as an important milestone of Williams' early career. Not for nothing did this score earn Williams his first Emmy. (This was, in fact, his first major industry award; though he had been honored with several high-profile nominations, including an Academy Award nomination for his work with Andre Previn on 1967's VALLEY OF THE DOLLS, HEIDI was his first big win.)

Listen here and see if you disagree:

https://youtu.be/qaGRKU2HB80?t=11m38s

I disagree.

While it is true that Heidi shows some of the technical and stylistic hallmarks which would make him a household name, the score doesn't have any of the brilliance of those later scores. Which is the real mark of true greatness.

Heidi is an interesting entry in Williams' career. but little more then that. Jane Eyre is a far more convincing candidate as a first sign of greatness.

No. I say it is Heidi so Heidi it is! End of discussion!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

More Moderator abuse of power!

What happened to you man, you used to be one of us?

[Incanus 5,714]

Hey I didn't lock the thread. I was just stating my opinion in no uncertain terms.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's how it starts.

Incanus of many colors!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

More Moderator abuse of power!

What happened to you man, you used to be one of us?

Inky was never really one of us. He just pretended being one of us to get to a position of power: "You can trust me, I'm like you guys! Vote for me as a moderator, and I will protect your rights!"

And once he got there, he revealed his true face... Remember what he said the day he became moderator?

"It is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this calling. I love democracy. I love JWFAN. Once this crisis has abated, I will lay down the powers you have given me!"

Yeah, right!

[Sandor 797]

Heidi - The Miracle.

Perhaps my opinion is colored by the time I spent working on the most recent release of this score for Quartet Records (now sadly out of print), but if we're talking about the earliest "first sign of true greatness," I think 1968's HEIDI -- one of the first scores to bear the "John Williams" screen credit, as opposed to "Johnny Williams" -- absolutely has to be part of the conversation. One can certainly point to excellent scores in the years prior to HEIDI, both comic (FITZWILLY) and dramatic (THE RARE BREED). But HEIDI distinguishes itself for several reasons. To begin, the rich literary source material provided Williams with what was, at that point in his career, perhaps his broadest canvas yet. We have the poignant figure of the bereaved grandfather, solitary and meditative, but we also have joyous scenes of the young heroine at play among the hills. We experience a tender family drama, tinged with heartache and a touch of romance, but this plays out against the vast magnificence of the Alpine setting. One of the things that distinguishes Williams as a composer is his ability to unite the epic and the intimate, seemingly without effort, and that is very much a key feature of HEIDI. The range of the picture also means that we get a satisfyingly broad selection of characteristic "Williams-isms" -- his soaring French horn lines, his rich harmonic writing, his playful and intricate scherzos. We even get a gorgeous main theme set to lyrics. But Marian is correct: what puts the score over the top -- what really points to the "true greatness" to come -- is the aptly titled track "The Miracle," which provides a breathtaking glimpse of Williams in full religioso mode. It is a stunning cue in any context, and coming as it does at the climax of an already superb dramatic score, it reinforces HEIDI in my mind as an important milestone of Williams' early career. Not for nothing did this score earn Williams his first Emmy. (This was, in fact, his first major industry award; though he had been honored with several high-profile nominations, including an Academy Award nomination for his work with Andre Previn on 1967's VALLEY OF THE DOLLS, HEIDI was his first big win.)

Listen here and see if you disagree:

https://youtu.be/qaGRKU2HB80?t=11m38s

I disagree.

While it is true that Heidi shows some of the technical and stylistic hallmarks which would make him a household name, the score doesn't have any of the brilliance of those later scores. Which is the real mark of true greatness.

Heidi is an interesting entry in Williams' career. but little more then that. Jane Eyre is a far more convincing candidate as a first sign of greatness.

I feel that with Jane Eyre Williams infused that particular score with a different melodic approach than he did before and with great success.

The theme itself can be regarded as a melodic blueprint for later works, including Hook and Star Wars II. In that sense it was a bit ahead of its time looking at Williams' oevre.

Heidi is melodically speaking less distinctive than Jane Eyre -which is simply excellent IMO- and therefore the latter is a more likely candidate to be considered Williams' true first sign of greatness.

Despite this conclusion on my part, John Takis' take on Heidi intrigues me has made me listen to the score again which has been a while. So thanks John..!