Sandor 798 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Of course Jaws propelled Williams into super-stardom, but what work/score/theme would you consider Williams' first sign of true greatness?For me probably Jane Eyre or Images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,652 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The Reivers is the first true "John Williams" score for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 CE3K Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 JANE EYRE, IMAGES, JAWS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The Reivers or Not With My Wife You Don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Jane Eyre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stempel 136 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Jane EyreHeidiThe Reivers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,602 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I think you can hear the greatness already in THE SECRET WAYS (1961), his first "serious score" -- especially that main title theme which foreshadows the ostinato from "Duel of the Fates" almost 40 years later. You could hear this side of Williams throughout the 60s when he wasn't just doing comedies. Like NONE BUT THE BRAVE (1965), THE KILLERS (1964), THE RARE BREED (1966) and quite a few of the TV shows.But like many others, I consider THE REIVERS (1969) the massive breakthrough as a 'serious' film composer. And a personal favourite of mine from this period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Probably Munich. He was a bit of a midrange composer before that. Once 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Taikomochi and Once 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 This new SW movie may make or break his career. Even Spielberg ditched him before he could make his mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Jaws, but the recording never did do the score full justice. So Star Wars. Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,500 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 When we listen to the first scores of JW, I think we see a great difference when we arrive to Star Wars and CE3K.The score is not anymore a collection of little pieces joined together, it's now a whole, a complex oeuvre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,602 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 When we listen to the first scores of JW, I think we see a great difference when we arrive to CE3K.The score is not anymore a collection of little pieces joined together, it's now a whole, an oeuvre.You could see that WAY before CE3K -- even back in the 60s. But most definitely on display in JAWS, which is one of the most 'whole' and unified musical scores ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,500 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 When we listen to the first scores of JW, I think we see a great difference when we arrive to CE3K.The score is not anymore a collection of little pieces joined together, it's now a whole, an oeuvre.You could see that WAY before CE3K -- even back in the 60s. But most definitely on display in JAWS, which is one of the most 'whole' and unified musical scores ever.Jaws is very good, but I must say I'm not an expert of this score... There is the ta-dam... there is this pretty little fugue and the chase music, two marvellous classical cues... but an stylistic oeuvre of the scale of CE3K, a work that would announce what will follow, really?Wait a minute does CE3K came out after or before Star Wars?Because I will choose Star Wars if it came out first in 1977. EDIT : Star Wars came out in may 1977, CE3K, in november. So I pick Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,602 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Yeah -- JAWS is a benchmark of 'unified', thematic scoring -- far more than STAR WARS, IMO. I think it's wrong to go digging up for 'firsts' as late as the mid and late 70s. Everything that defined who Williams would be as a composer is already present in the 60s in various forms and shapes, IMO. By the time 1977 came around, he was already a 45-year-old veteran. Once 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,500 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 By the time 1977 came around, he was already a 45-year-old veteran.1977.If he was an ancient classical music composer, one could speak of the begining of his maturity period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uni 306 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Birth. Jay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 That was by Alexandre Desplat! Once 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Lost in Space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,687 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Essay for Strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Well including concert pieces I'd say the flute concerto is the first where his distinct language peaks its head out. Then CE3K. I can't agree with Images because it's masterful on the avant-garde side but the tonal stuff is a bit bland for me - there isn't a real balance yet. Same goes for The Poseidon Adventure, Black Sunday, and even Jaws. Not until Close Encounters did that unique synthesis of his become very apparent and truly fluent. Jane Eyre is a good contender though.I've always thought of 3:40 as the moment when the real John Williams truly arrived. Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwardHall 30 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I love his early 70s scores, The Paper Chase, Earthquake, and The Towering Inferno, but they are all heavily infused with jazz. In my opinion John Williams true greatness did not appear until Jaws, when he unleashed the full power of the symphony orchestra to support and complement the images on the screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,602 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 You guys REALLY need to revisit -- or perhaps visit for the first time -- some of Williams' 60s ouput, especially the more serious stuff!THAT is where he came into his own (as most composers do in their late twenties and early thirties). That he had later developments and progressions is another issue altogether. I assumed this was about FIRST SIGNS. Once 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I don't own any Johnny Williams scores. I sold the few I had for some beer money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,602 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Too bad! That's the decade he was the most dynamic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 It was good beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,602 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I can dig that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 You guys REALLY need to revisit -- or perhaps visit for the first time -- some of Williams' 60s ouput, especially the more serious stuff!THAT is where he came into his own (as most composers do in their late twenties and early thirties). That he had later developments and progressions is another issue altogether. I assumed this was about FIRST SIGNS.I'm quite familiar with them. I don't hear it.For the record, John Corigliano agrees with me. Sharkissimo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,602 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 You guys REALLY need to revisit -- or perhaps visit for the first time -- some of Williams' 60s ouput, especially the more serious stuff!THAT is where he came into his own (as most composers do in their late twenties and early thirties). That he had later developments and progressions is another issue altogether. I assumed this was about FIRST SIGNS.I'm quite familiar with them. I don't hear it.For the record, John Corigliano agrees with me.Corigliano sucks!Seriously, though, nice to see we're back on track with the disagreeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Well including concert pieces I'd say the flute concerto is the first where his distinct language peaks its head out. Then CE3K. I can't agree with Images because it's masterful on the avant-garde side but the tonal stuff is a bit bland for me - there isn't a real balance yet. Same goes for The Poseidon Adventure, Black Sunday, and even Jaws. Not until Close Encounters did that unique synthesis of his become very apparent and truly fluent. Jane Eyre is a good contender though. I've always thought of 3:40 as the moment when the real John Williams truly arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Well including concert pieces I'd say the flute concerto is the first where his distinct language peaks its head out. Then CE3K. I can't agree with Images because it's masterful on the avant-garde side but the tonal stuff is a bit bland for me - there isn't a real balance yet. Same goes for The Poseidon Adventure, Black Sunday, and even Jaws. Not until Close Encounters did that unique synthesis of his become very apparent and truly fluent. Jane Eyre is a good contender though.I've always thought of 3:40 as the moment when the real John Williams truly arrived. LOL exactly. Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerebral Cortex 3,358 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The Reivers, Jane Eyre, and The Cowboys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Cinderella Liberty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 4,214 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Potential? Jane Eyre and Towering Inferno.Greatness? JawsMastery? Star Wars Bespin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,240 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Heidi - The Miracle. Incanus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLUMENKOHL 1,070 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 JANE EYRE, IMAGES, JAWS. Every once in a while we agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post John Takis 206 Posted March 26, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted March 26, 2015 Heidi - The Miracle.Perhaps my opinion is colored by the time I spent working on the most recent release of this score for Quartet Records (now sadly out of print), but if we're talking about the earliest "first sign of true greatness," I think 1968's HEIDI -- one of the first scores to bear the "John Williams" screen credit, as opposed to "Johnny Williams" -- absolutely has to be part of the conversation. One can certainly point to excellent scores in the years prior to HEIDI, both comic (FITZWILLY) and dramatic (THE RARE BREED). But HEIDI distinguishes itself for several reasons. To begin, the rich literary source material provided Williams with what was, at that point in his career, perhaps his broadest canvas yet. We have the poignant figure of the bereaved grandfather, solitary and meditative, but we also have joyous scenes of the young heroine at play among the hills. We experience a tender family drama, tinged with heartache and a touch of romance, but this plays out against the vast magnificence of the Alpine setting. One of the things that distinguishes Williams as a composer is his ability to unite the epic and the intimate, seemingly without effort, and that is very much a key feature of HEIDI. The range of the picture also means that we get a satisfyingly broad selection of characteristic "Williams-isms" -- his soaring French horn lines, his rich harmonic writing, his playful and intricate scherzos. We even get a gorgeous main theme set to lyrics. But Marian is correct: what puts the score over the top -- what really points to the "true greatness" to come -- is the aptly titled track "The Miracle," which provides a breathtaking glimpse of Williams in full religioso mode. It is a stunning cue in any context, and coming as it does at the climax of an already superb dramatic score, it reinforces HEIDI in my mind as an important milestone of Williams' early career. Not for nothing did this score earn Williams his first Emmy. (This was, in fact, his first major industry award; though he had been honored with several high-profile nominations, including an Academy Award nomination for his work with Andre Previn on 1967's VALLEY OF THE DOLLS, HEIDI was his first big win.)Listen here and see if you disagree:https://youtu.be/qaGRKU2HB80?t=11m38s Smeltington, Marian Schedenig, Stempel and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,724 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Yes Heidi is certainly a score that shows those signs of the coming greatness. Well put Mr. Takis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I'm sure TGP and KK will disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Most people in this thread disagree with each other.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,724 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Amicable consensus is so boring. We want strife! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,363 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Most people in this thread disagree with each other....That means none of it is true. We need a poll to sort it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Heidi - The Miracle.Perhaps my opinion is colored by the time I spent working on the most recent release of this score for Quartet Records (now sadly out of print), but if we're talking about the earliest "first sign of true greatness," I think 1968's HEIDI -- one of the first scores to bear the "John Williams" screen credit, as opposed to "Johnny Williams" -- absolutely has to be part of the conversation. One can certainly point to excellent scores in the years prior to HEIDI, both comic (FITZWILLY) and dramatic (THE RARE BREED). But HEIDI distinguishes itself for several reasons. To begin, the rich literary source material provided Williams with what was, at that point in his career, perhaps his broadest canvas yet. We have the poignant figure of the bereaved grandfather, solitary and meditative, but we also have joyous scenes of the young heroine at play among the hills. We experience a tender family drama, tinged with heartache and a touch of romance, but this plays out against the vast magnificence of the Alpine setting. One of the things that distinguishes Williams as a composer is his ability to unite the epic and the intimate, seemingly without effort, and that is very much a key feature of HEIDI. The range of the picture also means that we get a satisfyingly broad selection of characteristic "Williams-isms" -- his soaring French horn lines, his rich harmonic writing, his playful and intricate scherzos. We even get a gorgeous main theme set to lyrics. But Marian is correct: what puts the score over the top -- what really points to the "true greatness" to come -- is the aptly titled track "The Miracle," which provides a breathtaking glimpse of Williams in full religioso mode. It is a stunning cue in any context, and coming as it does at the climax of an already superb dramatic score, it reinforces HEIDI in my mind as an important milestone of Williams' early career. Not for nothing did this score earn Williams his first Emmy. (This was, in fact, his first major industry award; though he had been honored with several high-profile nominations, including an Academy Award nomination for his work with Andre Previn on 1967's VALLEY OF THE DOLLS, HEIDI was his first big win.)Listen here and see if you disagree:https://youtu.be/qaGRKU2HB80?t=11m38sI disagree.While it is true that Heidi shows some of the technical and stylistic hallmarks which would make him a household name, the score doesn't have any of the brilliance of those later scores. Which is the real mark of true greatness.Heidi is an interesting entry in Williams' career. but little more then that. Jane Eyre is a far more convincing candidate as a first sign of greatness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,724 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Heidi - The Miracle.Perhaps my opinion is colored by the time I spent working on the most recent release of this score for Quartet Records (now sadly out of print), but if we're talking about the earliest "first sign of true greatness," I think 1968's HEIDI -- one of the first scores to bear the "John Williams" screen credit, as opposed to "Johnny Williams" -- absolutely has to be part of the conversation. One can certainly point to excellent scores in the years prior to HEIDI, both comic (FITZWILLY) and dramatic (THE RARE BREED). But HEIDI distinguishes itself for several reasons. To begin, the rich literary source material provided Williams with what was, at that point in his career, perhaps his broadest canvas yet. We have the poignant figure of the bereaved grandfather, solitary and meditative, but we also have joyous scenes of the young heroine at play among the hills. We experience a tender family drama, tinged with heartache and a touch of romance, but this plays out against the vast magnificence of the Alpine setting. One of the things that distinguishes Williams as a composer is his ability to unite the epic and the intimate, seemingly without effort, and that is very much a key feature of HEIDI. The range of the picture also means that we get a satisfyingly broad selection of characteristic "Williams-isms" -- his soaring French horn lines, his rich harmonic writing, his playful and intricate scherzos. We even get a gorgeous main theme set to lyrics. But Marian is correct: what puts the score over the top -- what really points to the "true greatness" to come -- is the aptly titled track "The Miracle," which provides a breathtaking glimpse of Williams in full religioso mode. It is a stunning cue in any context, and coming as it does at the climax of an already superb dramatic score, it reinforces HEIDI in my mind as an important milestone of Williams' early career. Not for nothing did this score earn Williams his first Emmy. (This was, in fact, his first major industry award; though he had been honored with several high-profile nominations, including an Academy Award nomination for his work with Andre Previn on 1967's VALLEY OF THE DOLLS, HEIDI was his first big win.)Listen here and see if you disagree:https://youtu.be/qaGRKU2HB80?t=11m38sI disagree.While it is true that Heidi shows some of the technical and stylistic hallmarks which would make him a household name, the score doesn't have any of the brilliance of those later scores. Which is the real mark of true greatness.Heidi is an interesting entry in Williams' career. but little more then that. Jane Eyre is a far more convincing candidate as a first sign of greatness.No. I say it is Heidi so Heidi it is! End of discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 More Moderator abuse of power!What happened to you man, you used to be one of us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,724 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Hey I didn't lock the thread. I was just stating my opinion in no uncertain terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 That's how it starts.Incanus of many colors! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 More Moderator abuse of power!What happened to you man, you used to be one of us?Inky was never really one of us. He just pretended being one of us to get to a position of power: "You can trust me, I'm like you guys! Vote for me as a moderator, and I will protect your rights!"And once he got there, he revealed his true face... Remember what he said the day he became moderator?"It is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this calling. I love democracy. I love JWFAN. Once this crisis has abated, I will lay down the powers you have given me!"Yeah, right! Smeltington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 798 Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 Heidi - The Miracle. Perhaps my opinion is colored by the time I spent working on the most recent release of this score for Quartet Records (now sadly out of print), but if we're talking about the earliest "first sign of true greatness," I think 1968's HEIDI -- one of the first scores to bear the "John Williams" screen credit, as opposed to "Johnny Williams" -- absolutely has to be part of the conversation. One can certainly point to excellent scores in the years prior to HEIDI, both comic (FITZWILLY) and dramatic (THE RARE BREED). But HEIDI distinguishes itself for several reasons. To begin, the rich literary source material provided Williams with what was, at that point in his career, perhaps his broadest canvas yet. We have the poignant figure of the bereaved grandfather, solitary and meditative, but we also have joyous scenes of the young heroine at play among the hills. We experience a tender family drama, tinged with heartache and a touch of romance, but this plays out against the vast magnificence of the Alpine setting. One of the things that distinguishes Williams as a composer is his ability to unite the epic and the intimate, seemingly without effort, and that is very much a key feature of HEIDI. The range of the picture also means that we get a satisfyingly broad selection of characteristic "Williams-isms" -- his soaring French horn lines, his rich harmonic writing, his playful and intricate scherzos. We even get a gorgeous main theme set to lyrics. But Marian is correct: what puts the score over the top -- what really points to the "true greatness" to come -- is the aptly titled track "The Miracle," which provides a breathtaking glimpse of Williams in full religioso mode. It is a stunning cue in any context, and coming as it does at the climax of an already superb dramatic score, it reinforces HEIDI in my mind as an important milestone of Williams' early career. Not for nothing did this score earn Williams his first Emmy. (This was, in fact, his first major industry award; though he had been honored with several high-profile nominations, including an Academy Award nomination for his work with Andre Previn on 1967's VALLEY OF THE DOLLS, HEIDI was his first big win.)Listen here and see if you disagree:https://youtu.be/qaGRKU2HB80?t=11m38s I disagree.While it is true that Heidi shows some of the technical and stylistic hallmarks which would make him a household name, the score doesn't have any of the brilliance of those later scores. Which is the real mark of true greatness.Heidi is an interesting entry in Williams' career. but little more then that. Jane Eyre is a far more convincing candidate as a first sign of greatness.I feel that with Jane Eyre Williams infused that particular score with a different melodic approach than he did before and with great success.The theme itself can be regarded as a melodic blueprint for later works, including Hook and Star Wars II. In that sense it was a bit ahead of its time looking at Williams' oevre.Heidi is melodically speaking less distinctive than Jane Eyre -which is simply excellent IMO- and therefore the latter is a more likely candidate to be considered Williams' true first sign of greatness.Despite this conclusion on my part, John Takis' take on Heidi intrigues me has made me listen to the score again which has been a while. So thanks John..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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