Star Wars Disenchantment

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

35 minutes ago, JTW said:

That's a totally different thing. JW's scores are true works of art, orchestral music of the greatest quality. 

I…didn’t say this.

[Mr. Hooper 1,800]

2 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

I…didn’t say this.

Didn't you? You are but a shadowy reflection of me.

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Hooper said:

Didn't you? You are but a shadowy reflection of me.

 
Now yer gettin’ nasty.

[Mattris 416]

  

5 hours ago, JTW said:

To him Star Wars is religion. To us it's a series of films and tv shows. 

To him it's life. To us it's just entertainment. 

He wants to believe in the Matrix so hard, that he's incapable of realizing the truth, that there is no spoon.

 

I'm entertained by Star Wars also. This doesn't preclude me from reading into it - and getting out of it - what I think was intended. George Lucas made clear from the beginning what was the foundation and purpose of the story: It's a "modern fairytale" formed from the old myths. If you're aware of this fact, you are choosing to ignore it.

 

You may be shocked when you eventually 'realize the truth': Along with the majority, you were in the Matrix all along. It was 'your boy Mattris' who was in 'the real world'.

 

4 hours ago, JTW said:

Nonetheless it is just entertainment, nothing more. If you're not a kid. 

 

That's a totally different thing. JW's scores are true works of art, orchestral music of the greatest quality. 

 

Star Wars is a story of the greatest quality... and not just for kids.

 

For his Star Wars contributions, John Williams will be given the further credit he deserves... once it's finally confirmed how much more substance he baked into the scores than most noticed because he knew then what I know now.

 

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I also think good drama and art should be thought of in terms of religiosity.

 

But I still take it as an aesthetic experience: its something you experience, and sort of washes over you. Its not a puzzle to be mechanically worked out: what Mattris is doing is essentially what the rabid Kubrickians do, dialed up to a million.

 

The difference is, my interpretation is based on the literal words of the official canon - in addition to the films alone - namely the screenplays and novelizations. Words have meaning, and I garner meaning in certain phrases and reoccurring themes throughout the totality of the story, especially as they relate to other important stories and the human experience. (I quoted dozens of them in this very topic, illustrating how I arrived at my theories which were proven right.)

 

What does your little Star Wars essay indicate?

 

4 hours ago, JTW said:

I know, but you mentioned the fans of Kubrick's films. Kubrick's films are much deeper than Star Wars. E.g. 2001: ASO is one of the greatest films ever made about the meaning of life, what it is to be human, where are we from etc. While Star Wars is just pure lighthearted fantasy escapist entertainment.

 

Are you sure about that? On what are you basing your conclusion?

 

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Not a fan of the movie, myself. But still, the point the movie makes is felt by experiencing it, not by the kind of very reductive, simple-minded, literal approach of looking for literal clues tucked into the corners of the frame and shapes in the background and whatnot.

 

Same with the kind of readings Mattris is trying to make.

 

Simple minded? You are denying the literal words of the only primary evidence we have!

 

4 hours ago, JTW said:

Star Wars doesn't have deeper layers, no matter how hard Lucas or our boy Mattris wants to convince everyone.

 

No, you just don't perceive deeper layers, perhaps because you don't want to. You don't want to try. You don't want to acknowledge you may have missed something. That you could be wrong.

 

4 hours ago, JTW said:

It has motifs like Vader's redemption, but they are all on the surface level designed so that it be easy for a kid to understand. That's why Lucas subsequently put in the "Nooo!" in RotJ because he didn't think audiences were smart enough to get what Vader is thinking during that scene. It's one of the biggest proofs how Lucas treats his audience like dumb children.

 

What do you mean by "redemption"? What do you think Lucas intended with Anakin's overall character arc or the story, in general? What do you think were the moral takeaways for the kiddies? I agree that the story treats the audience like dumb children. (And most took the bait.)

 

4 hours ago, JTW said:

When you watch a much more intelligently written and directed film like 2001 or Blade Runner or The Matrix, there are multiple layers that the filmmakers don't shove into your face, but let you figure out for yourself.  None of these three films are mainly about entertainment, but about telling a profound story that demands the involvement, thinking and undivided attention of the audience, not just their ability of being stupidly entertained for 2 hours.

 

You may have been "stupidly entertained for 2 hours". But from a certain point of view, the Star Wars story is just as profound. You just don't know it yet.

[bored 309]

3 hours ago, Mattris said:

What do you mean by "redemption"?

 

A serial child murderer who saves his child (with much hesitation). 

[Mattris 416]

Why should one good act 'redeem' someone after thousands of atrocities, evil of the worst kind?

[greenturnedblue 372]

8 hours ago, Mattris said:

To keep their audience in a state of underestimation. So when the makers of Star Wars really want to impress or surprise, they'll have the viewing masses right where they want them: in a state of shock and awe.

If there are any viewers left, that is

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Why should one good act 'redeem' someone after thousands of atrocities, evil of the worst kind?

Great question, but that is the actual story of Star Wars, regardless of whatever fever dream you’re having at the moment.

 

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

Star Wars is a story of the greatest quality... and not just for kids.

 

Dude, we’ve actually seen these movies.

[bored 309]

46 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Why should one good act 'redeem' someone after thousands of atrocities, evil of the worst kind?

 

Well when that evil was not seen and specifics were not given, and regret was shown in Return of the Jedi, then it was pretty easy to swallow. However making the character a child murderer even when he's still supposed to be "good" kind of destroys the whole idea that there was ever good in him to begin with, destroying the main story arc of the original six at its very core.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

6 hours ago, Mattris said:

You may be shocked when you eventually 'realize the truth': Along with the majority, you were in the Matrix all along. It was 'your boy Mattris' who was in 'the real world'.

 

Mattris, even if you one day become convinced that “all has finally been revealed” it will probably be you who is shocked when you realize that the rest of us still haven’t “seen the light” and are still rejecting your theories. Realistically though, “all” will never be revealed and you’ll just keep saying that the big reveal is right around the corner for the rest of your life.

[Mattris 416]

  

2 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

If there are any viewers left, that is

 

The story will go on, regardless of audience's interest level. (Mark my words though: They'll be back.)

 

2 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Great question, but that is the actual story of Star Wars, regardless of whatever fever dream you’re having at the moment.

 

What's the story? Are you sure you're using the word 'redemption' correctly?

 

2 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Dude, we’ve actually seen these movies.

 

And what did you take away from them? What was the point, ya think?

 

1 hour ago, bored said:

Well when that evil was not seen and specifics were not given, and regret was shown in Return of the Jedi, then it was pretty easy to swallow. However making the character a child murderer even when he's still supposed to be "good" kind of destroys the whole idea that there was ever good in him to begin with, destroying the main story arc of the original six at its very core.

 

Darth Vader committed - and ordered - some pretty evil stuff throughout the OT.

 

Showing Anakin as a good kid... than having him kill kids - in the name of good intentions, of course - was intended to show how far someone can fall into darkness. It's some pretty serious shit, if you think about it.

 

What do you think was "the main story arc of the original six at its very core"?

 

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

Mattris, even if you one day become convinced that “all has finally been revealed” it will probably be you who is shocked when you realize that the rest of us still haven’t “seen the light” and are still rejecting your theories.

 

If so, then Star Wars just might not be for 'the rest of you'.  At that point though, one's overall perception of the story will still be dependent on their interpretation, as with all stories. In the end, I think Star Wars will be fairly clear about what it was all about.

 

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

Realistically though, “all” will never be revealed and you’ll just keep saying that the big reveal is right around the corner for the rest of your life.

 

If the Saga is to be truly complete, then enough will have been provided within the story to understand it well. So many things will finally makes sense. At this time, far too many important facets of the narrative, themes, and lore simply do not add up... at least if the story is interpreted on a relative surface level, that of a child. To those who aren't aware of these things, I expect the story will surprise that much more as it continues and eventually concludes.

 

But at the end of the day, I don't need you - or anyone else - to make Star Wars what it means to me.

 

You can say the same, but I'll bet it's something lame.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 What's the story?

 

The story is whatever the screenwriters want to tell when they sit down to write a new screenplay. Sometimes they go back to old ideas. Sometimes they say "Screw it" and do things a little different than they thought they would. Sometimes they consider the plan the last writer had in mind and decide "That's dumb, I'm going to do my own thing instead."

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

  Are you sure you're using the word 'redemption' correctly?

 

Wrong question. The question you should be asking is "Are you sure George Lucas uses the word 'redemption' correctly?"

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 And what did you take away from them? What was the point, ya think?

 

Toy sales. The point was toy sales, Mattris.

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 But at the end of the day, I don't need you - or anyone else - to make Star Wars what it means to me.

 

Wrong. Star Wars only means what it does to you because it lets you feel like you have some special knowledge that the rest of us are too stubborn or too stupid to see for ourselves.

 

You absolutely need us to make Star Wars "what it means to you.”

 

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

 You can say the same, but I'll bet it's something lame.

 

An opinion isn't necessarily false just because you think it's "lame." The truth doesn't care how it makes you feel. Some facts are dull. Some delusions are fun. And some of us think whatever "Star Wars means to Mattris" is what's lame.

[Mattris 416]

4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

The story is whatever the screenwriters want to tell when they sit down to write a new screenplay. Sometimes they go back to old ideas. Sometimes they say "Screw it" and do things a little different than they thought they would. Sometimes they consider the plan the last writer had in mind and decide "That's dumb, I'm going to do my own thing instead."

 

So the Lucasfilm Story Group is not doing their job? The Star Wars story is a baton passed from one person to the next, haphazardly? What evidence do you have that supports this theory? What do you think the Star Wars story was intended to be from its beginning, at least as of the time of filming the original movie?

 

4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Wrong question. The question you should be asking is "Are you sure George Lucas uses the word 'redemption' correctly?"

 

Wrong question. The question you should be asking is "Why have you assumed that Anakin was redeemed?"

 

4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Toy sales. The point was toy sales, Mattris.

 

No, the merchandising rights (yes, product sales) yielded Lucas the capital to make the movies as he desired, as well as build his company and its subsidiaries.

 

But it wasn't the point of the Star Wars story to have been created. Money is just a means to an end. What is 'the end' of this work, its essence and purpose?

 

4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Wrong. Star Wars only means what it does to you because it lets you feel like you have some special knowledge that the rest of us are too stubborn or too stupid to see for ourselves.

 

Wrong. I have this Star Wars knowledge, information, and interpretation whether you are "too stubborn or too stupid" to see it or not.

 

4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

You absolutely need us to make Star Wars "what it means to you.”

 

No, I'm just showing you that logically there must  be more to the story... that there factually is  more... as seen from another point of view. I have a proven track record of successful predictions. At this point, who are you to doubt me?

 

4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

An opinion isn't necessarily false just because you think it's "lame." The truth doesn't care how it makes you feel. Some facts are dull. Some delusions are fun. And some of us think whatever "Star Wars means to Mattris" is what's lame.

 

Ah, but the story as interpreted on a surface level is  lame: It's full of plot holes, questionable themes, and moral ambiguity. The lore and history of the galaxy is unknown, especially as the Force is concerned. The Force, which is the main crutch and driving mechanism of the entire story. It's a fact  that the Jedi didn't understand it well at all. And neither do you. This is because the story has not told us enough about it, where it came, how it was discovered, and how it works... certainly not within the Saga films alone.

 

You have no confirmation that the general audience/fan interpretation of the story is correct. The fact that so many people disregard so much of the Star Wars canon should really indicate a logical conclusion: Their interpretation is likely (very) wrong. Shame people's pride and laziness impedes potential realization or progress towards deeper thought and an objectively superior interpretation of the story. Complaining and underestimating are the popular default responses. How utterly sad.

 

I agree, "the truth doesn't care how it makes you feel."  But you don't seem to have any pertinent facts, much less "dull" ones. You've presented no substantive evidence that I am experiencing a 'delusion'. You may think you're not delusional, but we both know you're not having "fun".

 

What do you think Star Wars means to me?

[JTN 2,042]

What do you think George Lucas thinks we think he thinks Star Wars means to Jon Favreau’s niece?

[mstrox 6,651]

90% of the time, George Lucas is trying to figure out what he ate that caused this case of diarrhea.

[Trope 527]

5 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

So the Lucasfilm Story Group is not doing their job? The Star Wars story is a baton passed from one person to the next, haphazardly? What evidence do you have that supports this theory?

The sequel trilogy.

 

Also, just to be clear, is Mattris arguing that there’s a secret meaning to the Star Wars films, a truth available to only a select few and hidden from the rest? Is he a part of some gnostic Star Wars cult?

[Tallguy 3,401]

I don't understand why they are STILL sitting on the follow up trilogy that was already filmed. In TOTAL SECRET.

[JTN 2,042]

Because they K•N•O•W… 👁️

 

 

Guys, I have found out who Mattris really is.
 

 

[Chen G. 3,950]

2 hours ago, Trope said:

is Mattris arguing that there’s a secret meaning to the Star Wars films, a truth available to only a select few and hidden from the rest?

 

Yes.

 

And, get this: he says this meaning will be magically revealed to the eyes of us simpletons when the next trilogy - which had already been filmed in secret - will come out. Suddenly, all the issues we took with any and all of the previous films will be magically transformed by the context provided by this secret last trilogy.

 

And no, this is not me trolling or being hyperbolic. Its literally what he's been saying for a while now.

 

I need a drink.

[Trope 527]

On 23/1/2024 at 8:23 AM, Mattris said:

Only George Lucas and select Lucasfilm employees/contractors are aware the objectively correct interpretation of this story. I'm very sure I am also, having gone on a years-long journey of enlightenment.

This guy must be trolling! 

On 25/1/2024 at 7:01 AM, Mattris said:

Your conclusions are based primarily on the assumption that your surface-level interpretation of the (single trilogy) story is correct and that the seemingly endless string of reported chaos at Lucasfilm over the last decade bolsters your overall assessment.

 

Mind you, the sources of these 'reports' are unconfirmed, as are their allegiances. In truth, these presumed 'behind-the-scenes controversies' are most likely falsities put forth to distract the masses. But that won't stop people like you from believing them, will it? Surely, so many couldn't have been played as fools. That's impossible!

 

I remember I was saluted here after the (not so) shocking TROS teaser trailer dropped and after certain specific theories of mine were confirmed in the film itself. Mark my words, I will be saluted again... sooner or later.

Oh my goodness, this is the funniest stuff I’ve read on the forum for a long time! Mattris, please keep posting! 

[Mr. Hooper 1,800]

4 hours ago, mstrox said:

90% of the time, George Lucas is trying to figure out what he ate that caused this case of diarrhea.

It always seems to come back to food...

 

On 23/1/2024 at 10:24 PM, Mattris said:

What do you think is the story of Star Wars?

 

Food. It's about food.

 

 

 

[Trope 527]

On 27/1/2024 at 12:18 AM, Mattris said:

 

With my story evidence as the basis for my theories and conclusions, I see Lucasfilm's seemingly endless chaos/controversies/cancelled Star Wars projects as a distraction to make them appear (even more) incompetent to the disillusioned fans. ('Act weak when you are strong'.)

 

Han (in Shriywook, to Chewy): You and I freedom make... by secret battle of pretend.

Star Wars itself contains allegories about the making of Star Wars! This is glorious.

[Datameister 2,044]

36 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Yes.

 

And, get this: he says this meaning will be magically revealed to the eyes of us simpletons when the next trilogy - which had already been filmed in secret - will come out. Suddenly, all the issues we took with any and all of the previous films will be magically transformed by the context provided by this secret last trilogy.

 

And no, this is not me trolling or being hyperbolic. Its literally what he's been saying for a while now.

 

I need a drink.

And don't forget that he said the same thing about TROS before it came out. It was going to blow people's socks off, receive universal acclaim, unite the fans, make TFA and TLJ suddenly gel together, reveal the secret truth of the saga's hidden meaning, etc., etc. He likes to bring up his track record of predictions that came true, which is admittedly pretty impressive … if you leave out the ones that didn't.

 

I'm still waiting for the big reveal that the Jawas were created by Palpatine. Their theme starts with an upward jump of a minor third, just like Rey's and Palpatine's. It's also going to be super cool to see the next Jurassic Park film reveal that the dinosaurs were robots all along, as JW cleverly foreshadowed by starting their theme with the same three notes that start the droids' theme from ESB. The evidence is overwhelming.

[Chen G. 3,950]

Just now, Datameister said:

I'm still waiting for the big reveal that the Jawas were created by Palpatine. Their theme starts with an upward jump of a minor third, just like Rey's and Palpatine's. It's also going to be super cool to see the next Jurassic Park film reveal that the dinosaurs were robots all along, as JW cleverly foreshadowed by starting their theme with the same three notes that start the droids' theme from ESB. The evidence is overwhelming.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot the whole "musicological" grounds for the thing. 

[Datameister 2,044]

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

Oh yeah, I forgot the whole "musicological" grounds for the thing. 

 

Yep. Same way we know Ben Solo was actually an Ewok. The first interval of a theme doesn't lie!

 

@Trope welcome to the party.

 

[Mr. Hooper 1,800]

This is all news to me. I wasn't here for the Great Star Wars Disenchantment Schism. Do I dare go back and read up on it? Do I risk losing my innocence?

[Loert 2,515]

I've finally understood the thread title. Every time somebody posts on this thread, I get more and more disenchanted with Star Wars.

[JTN 2,042]

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

He likes to bring up his track record of predictions that came true, which is admittedly pretty impressive … if you leave out the ones that didn't.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Look at Nostradamus. It only took 500 years for his prophecies to be proven wrong. So Matty is still good. 

 

 

All hail Mattris!

 

Oh, you're too kind, Master.

[Mattris 416]

6 hours ago, Trope said:

The sequel trilogy.

 

Some say the OT is evidence of 'no plan for Star Wars'. But that's not evidence. The fact that you - along with many people - didn't want, like, or expect what happened in the sequel trilogy is irrelevant to the story being told. Your inability to discern a narrative/thematical throughline in the trilogy - particularly as the story continued beyond Episode VI - is on you.  This goes for in any installment of Star Wars.

 

Making grand assumptions like 'Star Wars wasn't planned from the beginning and is (still) being made up as they go.'  doesn't help you. It only keeps you in a state of ignorance.

 

I've made sense of the sequel trilogy, three films which were executive-produced by JJ Abrams. The list of evidence that they were planned is a mile long. I posted some of it in this very topic.

 

6 hours ago, Trope said:

Also, just to be clear, is Mattris arguing that there’s a secret meaning to the Star Wars films, a truth available to only a select few and hidden from the rest? Is he a part of some gnostic Star Wars cult?

 

It's only a secret because you - as part of the hive-minded Star Wars audience - haven't figured it out yet... and they don't want to spoil it for you.

 

I can confirm that I'm not a part of any cult.

 

4 hours ago, Tallguy said:

I don't understand why they are STILL sitting on the follow up trilogy that was already filmed. In TOTAL SECRET.

 

When they are ready, their trap will be closed.

 

3 hours ago, Trope said:

This guy must be trolling! 

Oh my goodness, this is the funniest stuff I’ve read on the forum for a long time! Mattris, please keep posting! 

 

What do you mean by 'trolling'? My current Star Wars predictions align with the 'wacky' things I predicted that were proven right... when everyone thought I was nuts. 

 

2 hours ago, Trope said:

Star Wars itself contains allegories about the making of Star Wars! This is glorious.

 

It is. The makers of Star Wars are so far ahead of their audience, it's astounding.

 

2 hours ago, Datameister said:

And don't forget that he said the same thing about TROS before it came out. It was going to blow people's socks off, receive universal acclaim, unite the fans, make TFA and TLJ suddenly gel together, reveal the secret truth of the saga's hidden meaning, etc., etc. He likes to bring up his track record of predictions that came true, which is admittedly pretty impressive … if you leave out the ones that didn't.

 

Before TROS, I believed the lie that it marked 'the end of the Skywalker Saga'. (There is no such thing; it is THE STAR WARS SAGA.)  I had to get past that falsity in order to move into previously uncharted territory. I was on the right track in the leadup to IX and am immensely confident in my updated predictions and theories. I still believe to be true the majority of what I thought then. Based on their lie, I had assumed that the story was going to wrap up in one more film... when it was actually four more. What a difference that realization made to my thought process!

 

2 hours ago, Datameister said:

I'm still waiting for the big reveal that the Jawas were created by Palpatine. Their theme starts with an upward jump of a minor third, just like Rey's and Palpatine's. It's also going to be super cool to see the next Jurassic Park film reveal that the dinosaurs were robots all along, as JW cleverly foreshadowed by starting their theme with the same three notes that start the droids' theme from ESB. The evidence is overwhelming.

 

You might be onto something. The Jurassic Park dinosaurs weren't actually dinosaurs. As Alan Grant said in JP3, "What John Hammond and InGen did at Jurassic Park is create genetically engineered theme park monsters. Nothing more and nothing less."

 

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Oh yeah, I forgot the whole "musicological" grounds for the thing. 

 

Which only bolsters my overall assessment, significantly so.

[Datameister 2,044]

30 minutes ago, Mattris said:

You might be onto something. The Jurassic Park dinosaurs weren't actually dinosaurs. As Alan Grant said in JP3, "What John Hammond and InGen did at Jurassic Park is create genetically engineered theme park monsters. Nothing more and nothing less."

 

Robots confirmed! And come to think of it, the Jawa theory makes sense too. They played a key role in the fulfillment of Palpy's plans by bringing the droids to Luke. Obviously Lucas intended them to be the Emperor's henchmen from the start!

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

5 hours ago, JTW said:

Because they K•N•O•W… 👁️

 

Guys, I have found out who Mattris really is.

 

 

Bahahaha doxxed!

 

3 hours ago, Mr. Hooper said:

This is all news to me. I wasn't here for the Great Star Wars Disenchantment Schism. Do I dare go back and read up on it? Do I risk losing my innocence?

 

Oh it's incredible, but if you decide to dig into it, we can't promise that you'll make it back to us alive.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

So the Lucasfilm Story Group is not doing their job?

 

Correct. Since the Disney acquisition the Story Group has done an abysmal job of creating and maintaining any sort of continuity even within just their own content, to say nothing of ensuring that it all matches the content of the George Lucas era.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

The Star Wars story is a baton passed from one person to the next, haphazardly? What evidence do you have that supports this theory? What do you think the Star Wars story was intended to be from its beginning, at least as of the time of filming the original movie?

 

7 hours ago, Trope said:

The sequel trilogy.

 

2 hours ago, Mattris said:

Some say the OT is evidence of 'no plan for Star Wars'. But that's not evidence. The fact that you - along with many people - didn't want, like, or expect what happened in the sequel trilogy is irrelevant to the story that being told. Simply not discerning a narrative/thematical throughline in the trilogy - particularly as the story continued beyond Episode VI - is on you.  This goes for in any installment of Star Wars.

 

Making grand assumptions like 'Star Wars wasn't planned from the beginning and is (still) being made up as they go.'  doesn't help you. It only keeps you in a state of ignorance.

 

I've made sense of the sequel trilogy, three films which were executive-produced by JJ Abrams. The list of evidence that they were planned is a mile long. I posted some of it in this very topic.

 

Yes, the Star Wars story is absolutely, obviously and indisputably exactly like a haphazardly-passed baton. You may not like it, but the inconsistencies between VI and VII, VII and VIII, and VIII and IX are all definitive proof that there is no single, consistent and unified "meaning of Star Wars," secret or otherwise. That's not a "grand assumption." It's just the mundane reality of any franchise with this many creatives behind it. A better example of an unreasonable "grand assumption" would be that a large group of executives and contractors are even capable of maintaining secret mythologies, to say nothing of surreptitiously filming whole ass blockbuster movies without the public finding out.

 

13 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Wrong question. The question you should be asking is "Are you sure George Lucas uses the word 'redemption' correctly?"

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

Wrong question. The question you should be asking is "Why have you assumed that Anakin was redeemed?"

 

No I had the right question. The problem is that you can't accept that Star Wars is a fundamentally flawed creation from an imperfect group of creators who don't always share the same vision. It has occasional depth, but nothing terribly well hidden and certainly nothing of awe-inspiring profundity.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

No, the merchandising rights (yes, product sales) yielded Lucas the capital to make the movies as he desired, as well as build his company and its subsidiaries.

 

But it wasn't the point of the Star Wars story to have been created. Money is just a means to an end. What is 'the end' of this work, its essence and purpose?

 

George Lucas is just a person, not some 4D chess-playing mastermind. He had fun making some movies that an audience of mostly kids had fun watching. He got to play with cool special effects and was fortunate enough to find a highly-talented composer who managed to substantially elevate the work. Those are some of the other "ends," but there's no reason money couldn't have also been an end in itself. Furthermore, even if money was one of the intended "ends," there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, nor does there have be any deeper "essence" or "purpose" to the franchise.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

No, I'm just showing you that logically there must  be more to the story... that there factually is  more... as seen from another point of view. I have a proven track record of successful predictions. At this point, who are you to doubt me?

 

DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM???

 

Why of course I know who you are. You're some guy with a keyboard and undiagnosed mental health problems, just like the rest of us. That's why you fit in so well here in the JWFan Asylum.

 

 

That said, you haven't shown that there must "logically" be "more to the story" at all. Over the years you've thrown a metric fuck ton of nonsense at the wall and a small amount of it stuck because the Lucasfilm Story Group just happened to be doing the same thing. The return of a fan favorite big bad is entirely predictable. That is all you have ever proven.

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

Ah, but the story as interpreted on a surface level is  lame: It's full of plot holes, questionable themes, and moral ambiguity.

 

I agree. The story is lame. Even you seem to know this on some level. The difference between you and the rest of us is that you can't accept things as they are. You can't handle feeling disappointed or disenchanted with the lameness of Star Wars, so you have to invent all these crazy conspiracy theories that just boil down to, "Star Wars isn't bad. People just don't understand its secret genius!"

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

The Force, which is the main crutch and driving mechanism of the entire story. It's a fact  that the Jedi didn't understand it well at all. And neither do you.

 

Say it with me kids, "It's just a movie."

 

12 hours ago, Mattris said:

The fact that so many people disregard so much of the Star Wars canon should really indicate a logical conclusion: Their interpretation is likely (very) wrong. Shame people's pride and laziness impedes potential realization or progress towards deeper thought and an objectively superior interpretation of the story. Complaining and underestimating are the popular default responses. How utterly sad.

 

The logical conclusion here is actually much simpler than that. People have differing tastes and gravitate towards the movies they like. My tastes are closer to those of Gary Kurtz, Lawrence Kasdan and Irvin Kershner, so I like Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back the most. Many others have tastes closer to Lucas and as a result they tend to like the Prequels more than I do. Still others prefer the flavor of Rian Johnson. Each of the trilogies has a set of fans who don't really like the other trilogies as much and this makes sense because there is no cohesive vision.

 

It's a shame your need to feel superior and your general propensity for mental gymnastics prevents you having a more objective interpretation of the saga. Quite sad indeed.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,897]

I wonder how the Holiday Special fits in to George's master plan. 🤔

[Tallguy 3,401]

5 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

I wonder how the Holiday Special fits in to George's master plan. 🤔

 

It's a false flag operation to "show" that Star Wars can get out of his control. When really it never was.

[Mattris 416]

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Correct. Since the Disney acquisition the Story Group has done an abysmal job of creating and maintaining any sort of continuity even within just their own content, to say nothing of ensuring that it all matches the content of the George Lucas era.

 

I wonder, do you have any factual or canonical evidence of this?

 

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Yes, the Star Wars story is absolutely, obviously and indisputably exactly like a haphazardly-passed baton. You may not like it, but the inconsistencies between VI and VII, VII and VIII, and VIII and IX are all definitive proof that there is no single, consistent and unified "meaning of Star Wars," secret or otherwise. That's not a "grand assumption." It's just the mundane reality of any franchise with this many creatives behind it. A better example of an unreasonable "grand assumption" would be that a large group of executives and contractors are even capable of maintaining secret mythologies, to say nothing of surreptitiously filming whole ass blockbuster movies without the public finding out.

 

Inconsistencies, such as?

Name a single thing you haven't  assumed about your interpretation of Star Wars.

Occam's Razor dictates that, when presented two opposing conclusions, the more simple one is almost always correct. The most simple explanation:

 

There was a plan for Star Wars from its inception. With the creator personally handing the keys to a trusted associate to continue and complete the story, the plan is still on.  It benefits the story - and the telling of the story - if the audience doesn't totally understand what's happening. So to see out their trixie plan, Lucasfilm enacted a troll so powerful, the masses couldn't fathom it's just that and will remain ignorant, assuming, and distracted. When the time is right, Lucasfilm will strike, surprise... and win.  (It's all consistent with the "effective Jedi trap", as described in the Revenge of the Sith  novelization.)

 

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

No I had the right question. The problem is that you can't accept that Star Wars is a fundamentally flawed creation from an imperfect group of creators who don't always share the same vision. It has occasional depth, but nothing terribly well hidden and certainly nothing of awe-inspiring profundity.

 

You did not... since it wasn't confirmed within the story that Anakin was redeemed. Do you even know what redeemed means?

 

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

George Lucas is just a person, not some 4D chess playing mastermind ... nor does there have be any deeper "essence" or "purpose" to the franchise.

 

Perhaps he is just that, with many talented people to see his vision through to the end.

 

There must  be more to the story for it to be complete, much less, good. Otherwise, Star Wars is akin to X-Men, and George Lucas lied about literally everything about his work.

 

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Why of course I know who you are. You're some guy with a keyboard and undiagnosed mental health problems, just like the rest of us. That's why you fit in so well here in the JWFan Asylum.

 

You clearly do not. I predicted things about Star Wars that few thought were even remotely possible, much less, likely.  To back up my theories, I presented canon evidence and logical reasoning. So, no... I am very much not  "like the rest" of you all.

 

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

That said, you haven't shown that there must "logically" be "more to the story" at all. Over the years you've thrown a metric fuck ton of nonsense at the wall and a small amount of it stuck because the Lucasfilm Story Group just happened to be doing the same thing. The return of a fan favorite big bad is entirely predictable. That is all you have ever proven.

 

Wrong. Episode IX ended identically to VI, which continued onto VII.  It is 100% logical to expect Episode X to follow, the start of another trilogy.

 

The only "nonsense" I spouted was assuming that Lucasfilm were betraying George Lucas... and were going to conclude the Saga with Episode IX. (All related theories and conclusions related to these massive assumptions were clearly wrong. I now know better.)

 

Emperor Palpatine is not merely "a fan favorite big bad". He's the villain of the Saga. His return was clearly not "entirely predictable", as I was the only one here who predicted it.

 

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

I agree. The story is lame. Even you seem to know this on some level. The difference between you and the rest of us is that you can't accept things as they are. You can't handle feeling disappointed or disenchanted with the lameness of Star Wars, so you have to invent all these crazy conspiracy theories that just boil down to, "Star Wars isn't bad. People just don't understand its secret genius!"

 

The story is only lame if it's interpreted as a small child would. You are not aware of Star Wars matters "as they are"; you only have a perception.  It has not been confirmed that you are right in your assessment. You have theories, just as I do.

 

"The difference between" me and the rest of you here is that I have primary evidence and factually-present musical clues to bolster my theories. You do not, only a child-like reading of the story and a list of assumptions a mile long.

 

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

Say it with me kids, "It's just a movie."

 

Star Wars was released as a book first, followed by many subsequent volumes including shows, novels, comics, and video games. It's a sprawling Saga primarily meant to teach life lessons and universal truths. Diminishing the work as 'a lame child's story' is a disservice to its very purpose, making it essentially useless  apart from the visual/aural spectacle of it all.

 

3 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

The logical conclusion here is actually much simpler than that. People have differing tastes and gravitate towards the movies they like. My tastes are closer to those of Gary Kurtz, Lawrence Kasdan and Irvin Kershner, so I like Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back the most. Many others have tastes closer to Lucas and as a result they tend to like the Prequels more than I do. Still others prefer the flavor of Rian Johnson. Each of the trilogies has a set of fans who don't really like the other trilogies as much and this makes sense because there is no cohesive vision. It's a shame your need to feel superior and your general propensity for mental gymnastics prevents you having a more objective interpretation of the saga. Quite sad indeed.

 

I'm not the one exhibiting "mental gymnastics" here. I accept everything in the canon and have made sense of it. You are picking and choosing what counts or can be thrown away, like Star Wars is a cafeteria, or something.

 

Enough generalizations. Why don't you present some evidence indicating "there is no cohesive vision" for Star Wars beyond 'This element doesn't make sense', 'That thing was stupid', 'I perceive a plot hole/inconsistency', or 'I don't like this volume'.  I'll wait.

[Datameister 2,044]

I forget, has @Mattris ever committed to a time horizon on the already-filmed fourth trilogy thing? Like, if we get to, say, fall 2026 without evidence of another trilogy, is he wrong? I know at one point he suggested things kicking off around 2022, which obviously didn't happen.

[Mattris 416]

Episode X is already finished. They'll probably complete principal photography of XI and XII before X is released.

 

As for release dates, I'm keeping in mind that a significant 50th anniversary is on the horizon.

[Brando 1,864]

This is what I think of everytime I open this thread:

[Chen G. 3,950]

No, no, no, no!

 

We were talking about food!

 

Salad ain't food!

[Brando 1,864]

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

No, no, no, no!

 

We were talking about food!

 

Salad ain't food!

That’s right…word salads aren’t good!

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

18 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

No, no, no, no!

 

We were talking about food!

 

Salad ain't food!

 

Yes, but is soup a meal?

 

Discuss.

[Tallguy 3,401]

4 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

Yes, but is soup a meal?

 

Discuss.

 

Yes. What?

[Nick1Ø66 4,722]

2 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

 

Yes. What?

 

Depends on the kind of soup. Something like Consomm, well, that's not really a meal. I mean Chicken Gumbo, or Matzah Ball, or Mushroom Barley. Then I would agree with you. Those are very hardy soups. 

 

Now a dinner at a nice restaurant like Mendy's...that's a meal

[Holko 9,530]

Soup is liquid. It's a drink. Duh.

[JTN 2,042]

[Trope 527]

@Mattris Was it always Lucasfilm and J.J. Abrams' plan to change things "considerably" during the postproduction of Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019), such that John Williams ended up writing 3 hours of music as a result of continually revising and rewriting cues due to the changing picture? And was it always their ultimate plan to chop up and track the heck out of the music he provided them?

 

https://variety.com/2019/artisans/production/john-williams-star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-1203446034/

 

Or is this entire John Burlingame article bait, an entirely false narrative devised by Lucasfilm and J.J. to distract the audience from the true greatness of the final film, which turned out exactly as they originally intended? Pray, do tell!

[Datameister 2,044]

5 minutes ago, Trope said:

@Mattris Was it always Lucasfilm and J.J. Abrams' plan to change things "considerably" during the postproduction of Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019), such that John Williams ended up writing 3 hours of music as a result of continually revising and rewriting cues due to the changing picture? And was it always their ultimate plan to chop up and track the heck out of the music he provided them?

 

https://variety.com/2019/artisans/production/john-williams-star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-1203446034/

 

Or is this entire John Burlingame article bait, an entirely false narrative devised by Lucasfilm and J.J. to distract the audience from the true greatness of the final film, which turned out exactly as they originally intended? Pray, do tell!

I think his theory is that the huge amount of extra music was actually recorded for Episode X. Seems logical, right?

[Mattris 416]

On 27/01/2024 at 5:19 PM, Trope said:

@Mattris Was it always Lucasfilm and J.J. Abrams' plan to change things "considerably" during the postproduction of Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019), such that John Williams ended up writing 3 hours of music as a result of continually revising and rewriting cues due to the changing picture? And was it always their ultimate plan to chop up and track the heck out of the music he provided them?

 

https://variety.com/2019/artisans/production/john-williams-star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-1203446034/

 

Or is this entire John Burlingame article bait, an entirely false narrative devised by Lucasfilm and J.J. to distract the audience from the true greatness of the final film, which turned out exactly as they originally intended? Pray, do tell!

 

It's likely that the only things that 'changed considerably' during the post-production of TROS were editing related. John Williams was able to re-record - or entirely re-write - some cues within the recording schedule. Any editing of the film that occurred after the recording sessions had finished would necessitate editing/tracking of the already-recorded music.

 

Production of IX was rushed - and expensive (at least $416M, plus marketing) - because the shoot also included Episode X.

 

This would explain why the post-production of TROS was so hectic: Johnny and JJ Baby had to finish their work on two films... then step away. Job done.

[Jurassic Shark 12,084]

7 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Johnny Baby had to finish their work on two films... then step away. Job done.

 

Ah, so that's why he wrote three hours of music. 

[Mattris 416]

At least. Wasn't there one estimate/report that said there was the score as heard in the film, plus 90-minutes that wasn't used?

[Jurassic Shark 12,084]

If that was for Ep X, JW would have revealed it by now.