Joker (Hildur Guðnadóttir)

[Thor 8,101]

Saw the film today. VERY good; I can understand where all the buzz is coming from. Arguably Phoenix' best performance to date, and that is saying something. De Niro's role is a kind of a reversed take on his KING OF COMEDY role.

Gudnadottir's score is very gripping. There are some interesting rhytmical things too, not just broad, dark cello textures. Not sure how well it will hold up on album, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Also brilliant use of existing songs.

 

This is a film and score for those of us who don't normally give a rat's ass about superhero stuff.

[Edmilson 8,519]

I only know Hildur through her work on Chernobyl - which was sometimes effective, but most of the times it blended too much with the sound effects to be distinguishable as film music. Still, it was a very bold experiment.

 

I'm curious to hear her work on Joker, though probably it will be overshadowed by the songs.

[Thor 8,101]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

I'm curious to hear her work on Joker, though probably it will be overshadowed by the songs.

 

Sorta, yes. But her score is very up-front and center. This is far less sound design than CHERNOBYL was. Closer to her late friend Jóhannsson's stuff, I'd say (the film even uses a Jóhannsson piece).

[KK 3,308]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Sorta, yes. But her score is very up-front and center. This is far less sound design than CHERNOBYL was. Closer to her late friend Jóhannsson's stuff, I'd say (the film even uses a Jóhannsson piece).

 

Hmm. Colour me intrigued.

[Edmilson 8,519]

Is someone following the controversies surrounding this movie?

 

https://deadline.com/2019/10/joker-movie-theaters-new-york-police-plan-opening-weekend-undercover-1202749565/

 

Just an elaborate marketing strategy by WB or are people so scared here on the US that some crazy guy will dress like the Joker and murder a bunch of people on the theaters? Yeesh...

[Koray Savas 2,254]

It’s not a marketing strategy. People for some reason have latched onto this film; I guess because it’s the closest in critical acclaim to Nolan’s trilogy. Movie studios aren’t responsible for gun violence. 

[Edmilson 8,519]

Indeed, but a lot of people are terrified that some internet psychos will be inspired by the Joker to commit real life crimes. 

 

I can only imagine what would these same people do if Clockwork Orange, Taxi Driver and Fight Club had came up in 2019.

[Koray Savas 2,254]

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

Indeed, but a lot of people are terrified that some internet psychos will be inspired by the Joker to commit real life crimes. 

Well that’s because it happened in 2012 in Aurora. 

[John Dutton 7,207]

The 1989 Batman never inspired anyone to kill people.

[Holko 10,016]

Apparently him being inspired by and thinking he is the Joker was just something one journalist made up without proof and everyone ran with it because it sounded cool.

[Disco Stu 15,501]

4 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

The 1989 Batman never inspired anyone to kill people.

you wouldn’t hit a man with glasses would you?

[Edmilson 8,519]

8 hours ago, Koray Savas said:

Well that’s because it happened in 2012 in Aurora. 

 

I know, I'm aware of the 2012 Aurora shootings. However, apparently the maniac who did it was not dressed as the Joker as the media told by that time. 

 

To be honest, I think people are a bit overreacting to the potential of this movie inspiring any real life crimes, but I dunno, I haven't seen it yet. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Fargo 297]

I think it all started from the family of victims of the Aurora shooting asking their theatre to not show the film. And the media just ran with it and blew it up, as the media does.

[Jay 38,812]

So does this film set up sequels or is it a clear one-off?

[Edmilson 8,519]

Here in Brazil we had our own "Aurora". In November 1999, a then 24-year-old college student fired and killed 3 people and injured other 4 during a session of Fight Club on a shopping mall in São Paulo. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morumbi_Shopping_shooting

[Jay 38,812]

Usually new music albums come out on Fridays, but this went up today

 

https://music.apple.com/us/album/1481598135

https://play.google.com/store/music/album/?id=Bfs6yc77mwcpvmjv7dpkpjxxisa

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YF7SYN9

https://open.spotify.com/album/16bF6lLLeVcBNgYNreGjYZ?si=MnfdMwZ2SRmbA-xBqcoGZA

 

etc

[Thor 8,101]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

So does this film set up sequels or is it a clear one-off?

 

It has sequel potential, but can be enjoyed as a one-off too.

[Disco Stu 15,501]

I sampled a few tracks.  Doesn't seem like music I'd ever want to listen to on its own.  Might be perfectly serviceable for the film of course.

[Disco Stu 15,501]

If only the director's Taxi Driver worship had extended to wanting a score with personality and as evocative and memorable as Herrmann's.  Listened to the full OST last night and it might as well not exist.

[MedigoScan 329]

Only 36 minutes?

Is the movie that sparse on music?

[Thor 8,101]

12 minutes ago, MedigoScan said:

Only 36 minutes?

Is the movie that sparse on music?

 

I thought it was quite heavily scored, but I might have been fooled by the prevalence of existing songs. In either case, it seems like a very reasonable and representative selection of music, given the nature of it.

[Edmilson 8,519]

Saw it yesterday.

 

Pretty decent, I liked it more than I thought I would.

 

The movie is a bit silly, and not as deep as it seems. It's almost like Phillips was trying to mimic the gritty and dark cinema of New Hollywood, but he comes across more like some angsty person tweeting about the Current State of the World and the Society™. Here we have a meme for that: Crítica Social Foda (as in "fucking awesome social critique"), when someone on the internet tries to be deep and thoughtful, but ends up only being dumb and silly.

 

But, despite that, it's a very well made film, with great cinematography, an excellent performance by Phoenix, evocative production design and a score that works tremendously well on the movie. The music, actually, sounds like a mix between Hildur's mentor Johánn Johánnssonn and Zimmer's Dark Knight scores - at some moments of the movie I even thought she was purposedly referencing Zimmer's Bat-scores. 

 

On 10/3/2019 at 8:57 AM, MedigoScan said:

Only 36 minutes?

Is the movie that sparse on music?

 

Not really, but I guess the album contains pretty much the highlights of the score. The music that is missing is either tracked (it's a little repetitive at times) or just minor stuff.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,362]

Isnt this just a Superhero version of Taxi Driver?

[Disco Stu 15,501]

4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Isnt this just a Superhero version of Taxi Driver?

 

Taxi Driver + The King of Comedy, with a soupçon of Clockwork Orange thrown in, from what I've read.

[Thor 8,101]

2 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Taxi Driver + The King of Comedy, with a soupçon of Clockwork Orange thrown in, from what I've read.

 

Yes, that's a good description. Awesome film. I disagree with Edmilson in that it tries to be deep. It doesn't, really. It's more of a visceral experience, getting the audience to FEEL the alienated zeitgeist of our times through Phoenix. In that way, it has a little bit of Ken Loach's I, DANIEL BLAKE in it too.

[Edmilson 8,519]

I mean, the movie plays almost like a cautionary tale, a parable. Its message is clear and timely: a broken system that favors the rich at the expense of the poor has the potential of creating psychos and monsters like the Joker. However, the main focus being on Arthur created on me the sense that his story is also highly specific to him, which undercuts a bit of the warning the movie tries to make.

 

It's like there's two dimensions to Arthur's tragedy: the social one (his poverty, lack of help from the government, etc) and the personal one, and the two for me didn't mesh well.

 

16 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Isnt this just a Superhero version of Taxi Driver?

 

Firstly, this isn't a Super-Hero movie on the strict sense of the word, because there's really not a single super-hero on screen. Think of it more of a dark urban drama, but with characters from the comic book universe. Also, aside from the title character himself, the Wayne family and Gotham City, there's not a single reference to the Batman mythos or the DC Universe. It's a comic book movie that is a little embarassed of its origins - which, on the other hand, can attract some folks that avoid super-hero movies like the plague.

[Thor 8,101]

17 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I mean, the movie plays almost like a cautionary tale, a parable. Its message is clear and timely: a broken system that favors the rich at the expense of the poor has the potential of creating psychos and monsters like the Joker. However, the main focus being on Arthur created on me the sense that his story is also highly specific to him, which undercuts a bit of the warning the movie tries to make.

 

It's like there's two dimensions to Arthur's tragedy: the social one (his poverty, lack of help from the government, etc) and the personal one, and the two for me didn't mesh well.

 

That's interesting. For me, they meshed very well. It's not a documentary, so if you're going to make comments on society, you have to do it THROUGH a character, which it does. Arthur's personal "quirks" are the catalyst that makes him take action where other maligned people in his situation do not. One couldn't exist without the other.

 

17 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Firstly, this isn't a Super-Hero movie on the strict sense of the word, because there's really not a single super-hero on screen. Think of it more of a dark urban drama, but with characters from the comic book universe. Also, aside from the title character himself, the Wayne family and Gotham City, there's not a single reference to the Batman mythos or the DC Universe. It's a comic book movie that is a little embarassed of its origins - which, on the other hand, can attract some folks that avoid super-hero movies like the plague.

 

There are a few bits and pieces, like the

Spoiler

alleyway murder of the Waynes

which clearly pay hommage to the canon. But yes, I agree that it doesn't play out as a comic book movie. Which is to its strengths. The market is over-saturated by mainstream comic book movies at this point, and this alternative approach is really the only logical way to go. I wholeheartedly applaud it for it. Makes superhero-jaded people like me feel excited about it again.

[Chen G. 4,405]

39 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

t's a comic book movie that is a little embarassed of its origins

 

As all good comic-book films - certainly, at this point in time - should be.

[Disco Stu 15,501]

That's such horseshit.  You think comic-books are embarrassing but you want movies based on them, as long as they are properly ashamed of being based on them?  IMO the great breakthrough of the MCU was that someone finally started making comic book movies that actually embrace and replicate what comics are like (certainly Marvel ones at least): kinda silly, interconnected, big teamup events every few years, etc. etc.

 

If you think comics are embarrassing or stupid, don't see movies based on them!

[Thor 8,101]

We're going off on a tangent here, but what the hell.

 

I was a comic book nut as a kid. I collected them (had thousands), and even created and drew several comic books myself. But -- curiously -- extremely few, if any of them were superheroes. I was drawn to other kinds of comic books. I got an easy kick out of something like SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE or BATMAN. All the way through the 90s, I appreciated them. But when IRON MAN and the MCU universe kicked off (with DC following suit), it was quickly killed off. So formulaic, so silly. Not quite science fiction, not quite action, not quite fantasy. Quite boring, really, with endless destruction.

 

In the last few years, some people have thankfully confronted this formula head-on, and provided alternative takes on the premise -- like the TV series LEGION or a film like JOKER. Only then did I get kinda excited again. Such a breath of fresh air. I hope it's a sign of things to come.

[Chen G. 4,405]

16 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

That's such horseshit.  You think comic-books are embarrassing but you want movies based on them, as long as they are properly ashamed of being based on them?  IMO the great breakthrough of the MCU was that someone finally started making comic book movies that actually embrace and replicate what comics are

 

I was being hyperbolic, but I do prefer those films which downplay the more hightened or jouvenile aspects of actual comic-books: Nolan's Batman features being the prime example.

 

You're absolutely right about the MCU embracing the style of actual comic-books. But the MCU is largely comedic at its core, so that aesthetic serves it well.

 

You'll recall that The Avengers is one of my all-time favourite movies: its basically Ghostbusters with superheroes. Downey Junior's Tony Stark is, in my mind, one of the best movie characters of the last decade. So I'm hardly an MCU hater.

 

But there comes a point where any trick gets old, and the MCU's tricks are waaaaaay past their expiration date for me. So I can totally see why new filmmakers working in the genre will want to distance themselves from that aesthetic: I certainly would if I were making such a film.

[Disco Stu 15,501]

8 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I was being hyperbolic, but I do prefer those films which downplay the more hightened or jouvenile aspects of actual comic-books: Nolan's Batman features being the prime example.

 

You're absolutely right about the MCU embracing the style of actual comic-books. But the MCU is largely comedic at its core, so that aesthetic serves it well.

 

You'll recall that The Avengers is one of my all-time favourite movies: its basically Ghostbusters with superheroes. Downey Junior's Tony Stark is, in my mind, one of the best movie characters of the last decade. So I'm hardly an MCU hater.

 

But there comes a point where any trick gets old, and the MCU's tricks are waaaaaay past their expiration date for me. So I can totally see why new filmmakers working in the genre will want to distance themselves from that aesthetic: I certainly would if I were making such a film.

 

Fair enough, I guess.  I'm someone who didn't like the MCU much, nor the first Avengers, but came on board as the movies, in my view, became more interesting (I also have never liked Joss Whedon's work, so there's that).  Around the time of The Winter Soldier onward.  I think they've become more varied over time, actually, with a sort of shared basic tone.  But Feige has allowed individual voices to shine through more and more within that shared tone/framework.  Black Panther is a very personal film for Ryan Coogler.  But even when there isn't a personal voice coming through, I think there is more variety between movies like Doctor Strange, Guardians, Captain Marvel, Thor, etc. than you're giving them credit for.

 

But all that's beside the point!  I'm not a comics reader myself, but I know a few people who were super into Marvel comics growing up, and it's the replication of what being into a whole universe of comics is like that they respond to in the MCU.

[Edmilson 8,519]

lol

 

 

[John Dutton 7,207]

Fucken A.

[Unlucky Bastard 8,479]

I had a few comics as a kid but found them a bit tedious to read. I prefer the movies.

[John 2,032]

 

The society has spoken 

[John Dutton 7,207]

I saw it.

 

I thought it was entertaining. It's honestly too dark and disturbing for its own good. It's clearly better than the other crappy DC movies, but I don't feel this tone or take on the character was really suited to the source material. It's a very different take and when you remember that it's all based on funny books about a guy dressing up as a bat and fighting a clown, it's just kinda...very weird how they did it here.

 

 

I thought it was pointless to even feature the Waynes and even a crappy Alfred. I didn't care for that and the way they handled THE murder. Joaquin's version is too much of a creepy weirdo. The Joker I prefer is Jack Napier, back when Batman and The Joker were cool and fun, even if they were disturbed crazies. Him being a failed comedian I always thought was a terrible idea. 

 

Joaquin gives a wild performance and it's unclear for much of the flick whether it's supposed to be blackly humorous. There's a turning point where it becomes extremely serious, dark and disturbing, yada yada yada. Joaquin smokes in nearly ever scene! You will have completely forgotten about that awful Suicide Squad Joker by the end, which is a good thing. This is just not a Gotham universe I prefer, but taken as its own weird thing, it's a rather fascinating 2 hours of artsy fartsy Phoenix weirdness with awkward laughing, dancing, smoking over and over and over again.

[Edmilson 8,519]

1 hour ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

it's a rather fascinating 2 hours of artsy fartsy Phoenix weirdness with awkward laughing, dancing, smoking over and over and over again.

 

Indeed.

 

For me, what happened was that Todd Phillips woke up one day and decided to do a thriller inspired by the 70s cinema of Martin Scorsese that is also a critique of capitalist society. However, just take a look at Box Office Mojo: do you think that, in 2019, a dark drama like this has any chance to make, what, US$ 20 millions, US$ 30 millions? So, to make sure that his movie would be watched and discussed beyond the movie nerd bubble, he decided to use a famous comic book villain and set it in one of the most well known fictional locations of all time.

 

Because of that, his dark and gritty drama is being played to packed movie theaters all over the world, and being discussed on and offline. The movie has become one of the major talking points at my workplace this week, with people discussing it and wanting to see it, not unlike Game of Thrones and Avengers Endgame.

 

Maybe that's the way moving forward for art cinema, to use comic book characters to draw attention to itself?

 

[Edmilson 8,519]

Cool interview with Hildur about her scoring process

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/03/766172923/composer-hildur-gu-nad-ttir-finds-the-humanity-in-joker

[Thor 8,101]

It is pretty amazing to me to see Hildur blossoming into a star on the international scene. We had drinks together in Berlin a few years ago (also with Johann Johannsson and Atli Örvarsson), and at that point none of them had broken through (well, Atli was perhaps the biggest of the three at that point, due to his Zimmer connections).

[publicist 4,647]

Without having heard the score i will congratulate Hildur on the audacity of releasing a 37-minute soundtrack album. May many others follow in your footsteps!

[Disco Stu 15,501]

Depending on your definition of “broken through” Johannsson was certainly very notable on the indie music scene.  I remember the first CD of his I bought was in a record store in 2006 when he signed to 4AD, a legendary indie rock record label.

[Thor 8,101]

13 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Depending on your definition of “broken through” Johannsson was certainly very notable on the indie music scene.  I remember the first CD of his I bought was in a record store in 2006 when he signed to 4AD, a legendary indie rock record label.

 

Yeah, I'm talking film music, first and foremost. Johannsson had had PRISONERS, but it was before THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING. Right between those.

[Demondm810 399]

meh

[John Dutton 7,207]

Joaquin's strung-out long-haired look in this movie reminded me of River Phoenix in The Thing Called Love, one of my favorite movies. They never looked extraordinarily similar. Joaquin has more masculine features. But they both have the same baby talk, hair texture and receding hairline.

 

[Thor 8,101]

They never look similar.

[Ollie 1,106]

17 hours ago, Edmilson said:

 

Indeed.

 

For me, what happened was that Todd Phillips woke up one day and decided to do a thriller inspired by the 70s cinema of Martin Scorsese that is also a critique of capitalist society. However, just take a look at Box Office Mojo: do you think that, in 2019, a dark drama like this has any chance to make, what, US$ 20 millions, US$ 30 millions? So, to make sure that his movie would be watched and discussed beyond the movie nerd bubble, he decided to use a famous comic book villain and set it in one of the most well known fictional locations of all time.

 

Because of that, his dark and gritty drama is being played to packed movie theaters all over the world, and being discussed on and offline. The movie has become one of the major talking points at my workplace this week, with people discussing it and wanting to see it, not unlike Game of Thrones and Avengers Endgame.

 

Maybe that's the way moving forward for art cinema, to use comic book characters to draw attention to itself?

 

 

 

 

It’s on pace for an $85 to $90 million domestic opening weekend. 

[John Dutton 7,207]

 

One hilarious example of the black humor in this movie is Arthur and the young woman he gets with in his dreams. He comes off like a total creep, then stalks her, then in imagined scenes, she doesn't have a problem with it, makes love to him after he knocks on her door in clown makeup and then they're apparently dating. It was so unbelievable it was ridiculous and it was pretty apparent they would reveal it to be imagined and/or for her to be dead. But I was just laughing at all of this due to how completely unlikely, literally impossible it was.

[Edmilson 8,519]

1 hour ago, Mr. Manfrenjensenden said:

It’s on pace for an $85 to $90 million domestic opening weekend. 

 

So, there you go, just proving my point, lol. This movie is going to earn more on its opening weekend than it otherwise would if it didn't had DC characters.

 

53 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

  Reveal hidden contents

One hilarious example of the black humor in this movie is Arthur and the young woman he gets with in his dreams. He comes off like a total creep, then stalks her, then in imagined scenes, she doesn't have a problem with it, makes love to him after he knocks on her door in clown makeup and then they're apparently dating. It was so unbelievable it was ridiculous and it was pretty apparent they would reveal it to be imagined and/or for her to be dead. But I was just laughing at all of this due to how completely unlikely, literally impossible it was.

 

Spoiler

Yeah, I really liked when Phillips used his past as a director of comedies to bring some black humour to the movie. The stalking scene was pretty clever: Arthur stalks the neighbour until her workplace, which is scored with a very dark suspense score. But then the music cuts abruptly and we hear the sound of laughs when Arthur looses her, like the punchline of some TV sitcom, until we discover that the laughter actually comes from the comedy club on which the next scene plays out.

 

[John Dutton 7,207]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

They never look similar.

 

Do you see any family resemblance here?