Mr. Gitz 85 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 18 hours ago, Chen G. said: I think that's a huge conceptual issue with the movie. If the entire film was about repeated assasination attempts against Padme, it would make both Anakin protecting her and Obi-Wan's investigation have a lot more urgency. But alas... why does it need urgency though? Can’t a story just unfold in its own way, it’s in own time without a need for urgency? I mean, I guess if you don’t find the plot interesting than ok, but if the plot is unfolding in a particular way let it do it’s thing. there’s always been a question in this prequel trilogy of how much palpatine planned Vs how much was just lucky breaks. Was Anakin’s falling in love with Padme and thus creating the attachment that would be his undoing part of Palp’s design? I mean…Palpatine does suggest Obi Wan for the protection mission knowing full well Anakin was Obi’s Padawan and Palp’s has been acting as Anakin’s mentor & probably knows about his attachment to Padme so…Yes you could say it creates a lack of urgency but the story, when you step back & look at it as a whole, works quite well. I can see maybe at the time the movie came out being critical but once you see how the pieces fit, I think it all works quite nicely, lack of urgency notwithstanding. Smeltington 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 On 18/05/2022 at 6:29 PM, scallenger said: For me The Rise of Skywalker is the worst of them all. It just never clicked for me. Never even had a real engaging sequence. At least Attack of the Clones has fun action sequences and interesting things that happen (often visually). But TROS... it all looked like everything we've seen before. And don't get me started on all the other issues that movie had. And people like to hate on Last Jedi... to me that one at least felt like a movie. While I think that is a competent movie in the most basic sense, my experience of watching it still felt very much like yours. I was just mostly disengaged and bored at midnight showing. Upon rewatching it, I felt slightly less negative for whatever reason. Ultimately, it "does what it needs to do" in an efficient way and there are far worse things out there. But yeah, there's virtually almost nothing inspired about it. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,950 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 11 minutes ago, crocodile said: Ultimately, it "does what it needs to do" in an efficient way I hate talking about movies in terms of so-called "narrative efficiency." Movies are not dragster cars: they're under no obligation to get through their plot as quickly as possible; which is, sadly, exactly what The Rise of Skywalker does. I've never seen a movie paced quite like that: it goes by in a blur, and its completely joyless (and stakeless) for it. When a movie treats itself as an inconvenience to its audience, to the degree that it feels compelled to make the end-credits arrive as soon as possible, how can it be anything but mirthless? That alone would be sufficient reason to write the movie off: you just can't settle into any situation or feeling and enjoy it. But I also take issue with what the movie feels like it "needs to do": The nonesensical plotting; the soap-opera-parody level of dramaturgy, hinged so completely on who's-related-to-who-and-how-much; the utter moral bankruptcy of redeeming the murderous neurotic Kylo Ren for giving CPR to a girl once... Not that Attack of the Clones is necessarily better with its tedium, hokey acting and that awful "to be angry is to be human", but still! Tom Guernsey and Naïve Old Fart 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crocodile 8,017 Posted May 21, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2022 As for Attack of the Clones, I do look back at that period fondly. I am ashamed to admit I have seen this film 8 times at the cinema. To this day I cannot explain why. Perhaps because I was really following the making of it and all the leaks and it was exciting to piece together the whole thing long before the release. It was around that time that I started to really actively follow the fan sites and all the spy reports leaking plot details left and right. While the film wasn't very good at all, it made for an interesting study. It was a strange experience to watch the film for the first time and being aware of all the stuff that's NOT in it. It was also an important time because I started reading JWFan board regularly around that time. It was horrifying to read all the details of butchering, looping and tracking prevalent throughout the film. I must have heard the score some time before the release, it must have leaked or something. At first, I wasn't particularly taken with it due to a more streamlined approach and somewhat flat mixing. Compared to the bright and colourful The Phantom Menace, this felt quite, well, dull. But I really liked Across the Stars right away. Thought it was a tremendous theme from Williams and remember finding a lot of the initial fan comments very harsh. Eventually, when the actual album came out, I became very fond of it. There are some absolutely amazing setpieces on it and there's a certain coherence to the writing as well. To this day, I still believe this is one of the finest Star Wars OST albums, despite the disappointing sound. It has a shape and scope of an epic, unlike the more fragmented episodes 1 and 3. In terms of score presentation, it is up there with the original and The Force Awakens. It looks like Williams nails the album only once per trilogy. 16 minutes ago, Chen G. said: I hate talking about movies in terms of so-called "narrative efficiency." Movies are not dragster cars: they're under no obligation to get through their plot as quickly as possible; which is, sadly, exactly what The Rise of Skywalker does. I've never seen a movie paced quite like that: it goes by in a blur, and its completely joyless (and stakeless) for it. When a movie treats itself as an inconvenience to its audience, to the degree that it feels compelled to make the end-credits arrive as soon as possible, how can it be anything but mirthless? All I am saying is that, as a viewer, I am simply aware this is a committee effort. And as far as committee efforts go, I have seen worse. I wouldn't read too much into my comments in terms of defending it. It's virtually like a lower-tier Marvel movie, not quite horrible enough to waste time ripping it apart. Certainly not 3 years later. Karol Smeltington, Chen G. and Tom Guernsey 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,370 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 4 hours ago, crocodile said: I must have heard the score some time before the release, it must have leaked or something. I don't know about any other countries, but in the US the soundtrack album was in stores on Tuesday April 23, and the film opened on Thursday May 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,017 Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 Ah. It was probably released later in Europe and that explains the leak. Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DarthDementous 1,059 Posted May 24, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 24, 2022 On 20/05/2022 at 1:05 PM, Mr. Gitz said: The reason Padme’s life is never put in Jeopardy again is because the result was the same. It wasn’t really the separatists who wanted Padme dead, it was Palpatine. Yes they wanted her dead, but Palpatine wanted her out of the senate for the war measures vote. Her death or her out in hiding resulted in the same thing:Jar Jar being put into place to propose to vote. That was the entire point of that plot line, not the separatists. Dooku/Palpatine was just using their hatred of her towards their own ends. Obi Wan’s detective story is interesting because of where it leads. The Clones. It’s actually pretty cool plotting by George Lucas. The bad guys make the army for the good guys and since the Jedi have lost their way the force is clouded and blocking their ability to see what’s happening right in front of them. Right when the good guys think they are about to win…Order 66. The separatists put the republic in the situation where if they DONT use that Clone Army, they are done. So they use it & it brings about their end anyways, except now they are complicit. Especially the Jedi. The first thread of the spaghetti that is AOTC's plot is being pulled I see One huge issue with the film is that it's really hard to get a sense of what Palpatine is trying to do, and the more you try and figure that out the more the entire movie unravels Palpatine and by extension Dooku are fairly aligned in goals with Nute at the start, Palpatine wants Padme dead because she opposes the war bill and to get the Trade Federation's alliance, and Nute wants Padme dead out of revenge for TPM. So how does Palpatine go about doing it? By getting Dooku to hire the genetic template of the secret Clone army that he wants the Republic to eventually adopt. Is Palpatine trying to expose his whole operation with the Clones? It turns into a complete comedy of errors. Jango/Zam fuck up the first really un-subtle attempt to blow up Padme, so they decide to put poisonous worms in her bed chambers which is far less reliable and easier to trace than having the droid discharge a blaster bolt into the sleeping Padme's head. Obi-Wan then yeets himself out of a window and holds onto the droid which for some reason is programmed to return to its master and also does not have the ability to self-destruct, which necessitates Zam to physically aim and shoot the smaller target of the droid instead of the much larger target of Obi-Wan himself. Zam fails to escape and so Jango has to kill her in a manner that has to be a trade-mark for them by now, the most traceable method possible Okay, maybe Dooku instructed Jango to leave behind evidence that would lure Obi-Wan to Kamino! No wait, that's even worse. Not only does that make Jango look like a complete idiot for taking a deal that leads the Jedi to his home and son, it would mean that the Sith would be relying on Obi-Wan figuring out evidence that was deliberately covered up. What do they even gain by leading the Jedi to Kamino through such suspicious and indirect means? Why can't they just have the Kaminoans contact the Jedi outright? So now Padme is going off-world because of the second assassination attempt. Palpatine doesn't need to kill her now because she's out of the way. She's only out of the way because the Galactic Senate has no system in which a senator can be represented by a hologram in the Senate while off-world. Even the Jedi Council have a system for this! This wouldn't be that big of a problem except Padme then makes the least savvy political decision she could possibly make - appoint a naive bumbling fool to make decisions on her behalf. Did Padme even tell Jar Jar how important it was for the war bill to be opposed? Who knows, because unless Jar Jar is just really patriotic for the Republic he ends up getting manipulated off-screen by Palpatine and his blue himbo to vote in favor of giving emergency powers to the Senate I could keep going and point out how it's also really unclear when Palpatine decided to give Padme temporary immunity due to her influence over Anakin, but I think I've made my point. The plot is an utter mess that exposes how poorly written a lot of the characters are in this film, because it keeps making the characters bend over backwards to facilitate the convoluted and sometimes contradictory story even happening in the first place Jay, Naïve Old Fart, Romão and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,370 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 Nice analysis! DarthDementous 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,550 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 Your last post was a riot, @DarthDementous! Easily the most entertaining post I've read in a long time. DarthDementous 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,484 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 LIke I said in another thread, it needed 7 seasons of Clone Wars (which ended in 2020) to finally understand what Episode II & Episode III were all about. Knowing what we know now, the prequels are more interesting movies to revisit than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 I miss the pro prequel crew Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverTrumpet 638 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 I agree with everything in all five of the last posts, and I still love the existence of the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mstrox 6,651 Posted May 24, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 24, 2022 I don’t think the plot of 2 or the prequels generally is any more ludicrous than things in the originals or in the sequels/spin-offs. You can “unravel the spaghetti” of pretty much any movie, as demonstrated in a dozen popular, joyless YouTube channels. That’s more on the viewer than the filmmaker, imo Andy, DarthDementous, Chewy and 4 others 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 1 hour ago, mstrox said: I don’t think the plot of 2 or the prequels generally is any more ludicrous than things in the originals or in the sequels/spin-offs. You can “unravel the spaghetti” of pretty much any movie, as demonstrated in a dozen popular, joyless YouTube channels. That’s more on the viewer than the filmmaker, imo Oh no, not this argument Not all movie plots and characters are created equal, you absolutely can’t do what I did for the Original Trilogy (except for maybe the start of ROTJ) but you’re more than welcome to try. It’s such a lazy counter, instead of having to engage with any of what I said you can just dismiss it entirely by claiming that the standard of…questioning the main events of a movie…somehow leads to the same result no matter what movie it is It’s absolutely on the filmmaker to present a coherent world and set of motivations that align with the established characters. The reason that this is important is because it helps suspend disbelief and increase the verisimilitude of what the audience is experiencing, and thus aids in creating emotional investment. Nothing ruins that investment faster than taking notice of what the movie is doing and going ‘this is a farce’. Part of why I love the OT is because attention is given to do this, ANH and ESB are such tight movies that even if I really try it’s hard to find incoherencies in them Like, the conspiracy plot is one of the main focuses of AOTC, it’s kind of impossible not to think about these things because it’s the thrust of the entire story and also critical to the trilogy as a whole. These things jumped out to me when I watched the film and thinking about why they bother me lead me to realise other issues, I don’t see how this is ‘watching movies with an unfair standard’ Romão 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 A lot of not dumb people love the movie. Not everybody engages with stories in the way you do. mstrox and Andy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted May 24, 2022 Share Posted May 24, 2022 1 minute ago, Stu said: A lot of not dumb people love the movie. Not everybody engages with stories in the way you do. I don’t seem to recall calling anyone dumb for loving the movie Most people don’t get taken out of a movie when they’re reminded it’s a movie aka a falsehood? Somehow I doubt that. I think the whole point of telling stories is to make the audience believe them in the moment, something I’m confident most writers would agree with Unless you mean not everyone engages with AOTC as I do which is certainly true, but unless that person actually talks about the film directly then it’s entirely possible that there’s factors external to the film at play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,651 Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 3 hours ago, DarthDementous said: . It’s such a lazy counter, instead of having to engage with any of what I said Frankly, I used to engage and I’m sure you could go a year or two back in my post history if you want my thoughts, but got tired of it. The “debate me” genre isn’t really for me, almost less so than the “Cinema Sins” genre. I said what I wanted to say and what I meant just to put it out into the universe, and I’m going to leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 38 minutes ago, mstrox said: Frankly, I used to engage and I’m sure you could go a year or two back in my post history if you want my thoughts, but got tired of it. The “debate me” genre isn’t really for me, almost less so than the “Cinema Sins” genre. I said what I wanted to say and what I meant just to put it out into the universe, and I’m going to leave it at that. Except you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too. If you want to avoid discourse and just express how you feel then more power to you. However, you went out of your way to try and counter what I said and then when I respond back you go ‘oh no I don’t engage anymore’. You can’t have it both ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,651 Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 Watch me Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,550 Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 Excellent rebuttal, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 My bad, I meant you can't have it both ways without being a hypocrite* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,550 Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 I often have it both ways...but that is another story DarthDementous and Sweeping Strings 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeping Strings 2,363 Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 On 25/05/2022 at 10:08 AM, Naïve Old Fart said: I often have it both ways...but that is another story Matron! On Jar-Jar ... Abrams said that he contemplated adding his skeletal remains sticking up out of the sand to a Force Awakens shot in which the camera is sweeping across Tatooine's surface, but ultimately decided against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bespin 8,484 Posted May 26, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 26, 2022 Having watched (for the first time) some episode of The Clone Wars 3D cartoons this week made me realizing that each movie of the prequels (like the original movies before) was also a cartoon. I think when the prequels came out, we had too much expectations... too much unanswered questions. We wrongly watched these episodes like if it was The Bible in Space, with our adult eyes and expecting answers... and it was wrong. George Lucas always been true to himself from the start. We changed but Lucas didn't. That's the genius of this guy. (This comment took 20 years in the making) Smeltington, DarthDementous, mstrox and 2 others 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 43 years ago this then 18 year old took my bf and my sister to see Alien. Alien is a film closer to the quality of the film Star Wars than Attack of the Clones will ever be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,484 Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 QED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 13 hours ago, Bespin said: Having watched (for the first time) some episode of The Clone Wars 3D cartoons this week made me realizing that each movie of the prequels (like the original movies before) was also a cartoon. I think when the prequels came out, we had too much expectations... too much unanswered questions. We wrongly watched these episodes like if it was The Bible in Space, with our adult eyes and expecting answers... and it was wrong. George Lucas always been true to himself from the start. We changed but Lucas didn't. That's the genius of this guy. (This comment took 20 years in the making) It's an interesting notion but I don't think it's true at all, comparing quotes from Lucas around the time of the OT to quotes around the time of PT reveal quite a different person indeed. Most notably he significantly revised his opinion on film revisionism, I believe it was around the 80s that he called it an act of 'cultural vandalism' which is quite funny in hindsight with all the special editions of Star Wars and obfuscation of the original copies Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gitz 85 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 On 24/5/2022 at 5:49 AM, DarthDementous said: The first thread of the spaghetti that is AOTC's plot is being pulled I see One huge issue with the film is that it's really hard to get a sense of what Palpatine is trying to do, and the more you try and figure that out the more the entire movie unravels Palpatine and by extension Dooku are fairly aligned in goals with Nute at the start, Palpatine wants Padme dead because she opposes the war bill and to get the Trade Federation's alliance, and Nute wants Padme dead out of revenge for TPM. So how does Palpatine go about doing it? By getting Dooku to hire the genetic template of the secret Clone army that he wants the Republic to eventually adopt. Is Palpatine trying to expose his whole operation with the Clones? It turns into a complete comedy of errors. Jango/Zam fuck up the first really un-subtle attempt to blow up Padme, so they decide to put poisonous worms in her bed chambers which is far less reliable and easier to trace than having the droid discharge a blaster bolt into the sleeping Padme's head. Obi-Wan then yeets himself out of a window and holds onto the droid which for some reason is programmed to return to its master and also does not have the ability to self-destruct, which necessitates Zam to physically aim and shoot the smaller target of the droid instead of the much larger target of Obi-Wan himself. Zam fails to escape and so Jango has to kill her in a manner that has to be a trade-mark for them by now, the most traceable method possible Okay, maybe Dooku instructed Jango to leave behind evidence that would lure Obi-Wan to Kamino! No wait, that's even worse. Not only does that make Jango look like a complete idiot for taking a deal that leads the Jedi to his home and son, it would mean that the Sith would be relying on Obi-Wan figuring out evidence that was deliberately covered up. What do they even gain by leading the Jedi to Kamino through such suspicious and indirect means? Why can't they just have the Kaminoans contact the Jedi outright? So now Padme is going off-world because of the second assassination attempt. Palpatine doesn't need to kill her now because she's out of the way. She's only out of the way because the Galactic Senate has no system in which a senator can be represented by a hologram in the Senate while off-world. Even the Jedi Council have a system for this! This wouldn't be that big of a problem except Padme then makes the least savvy political decision she could possibly make - appoint a naive bumbling fool to make decisions on her behalf. Did Padme even tell Jar Jar how important it was for the war bill to be opposed? Who knows, because unless Jar Jar is just really patriotic for the Republic he ends up getting manipulated off-screen by Palpatine and his blue himbo to vote in favor of giving emergency powers to the Senate I could keep going and point out how it's also really unclear when Palpatine decided to give Padme temporary immunity due to her influence over Anakin, but I think I've made my point. The plot is an utter mess that exposes how poorly written a lot of the characters are in this film, because it keeps making the characters bend over backwards to facilitate the convoluted and sometimes contradictory story even happening in the first place There’s a word I like to use for movies that have plot logic that isn’t 100 % solid but work non the less and the Star Wars movies are terrific examples of this done right. That word is “verisimilitude”. Star Wars movies all have plot logic that you can nit pick to death. These movies are all based on the Saturday matinee serials, but updated a bit for a more modern audience. The plot works just enough and makes just enough sense that it works for me. Yes when you pull apart Palpatines plan…it’s not exactly without some issues. But that’s ok. Because the reality of the movie, the verisimilitude, is never broken. To go a bit off topic, one of the reasons I have a problem with a movie like The Dark Knight, is because the Jokers plan makes absolutely zero sense and is achieved by a insanely contrived plot. BUT. The difference between ATOC & say The Dark Knight is in their verisimilitude. The Dark Knight wants to be taken super seriously as a crime drama. I believe “Heat” was in influence Nolan was aiming for. So when the movie cheats at things to make the plot move forward, for example, not understanding how DNA evidence works or having a finger print on a bullet despite bullets having casings. Nolan wants us to take this world seriously. It’s not a heightened reality like Tim Burton utilized in his Batman movies. So when Nolan cheats at details like that, despite it being a Batman movie, he is breaking his established verisimilitude. Star Wars is not trying to be a realistic super serious movie. Now that doesn’t mean one can excuse blatant plot holes or massive leaps in logic but nothing you wrote is breaking any of the saga rules or reality. Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He’s an evil space Wizard. It’s established in the saga that using the force can help you see into the future. So one could explain Palpatines plan in that all the failures and missteps were necessary to get to the end result. Had Padme been killed any earlier, Anakin doesn’t fall in love with her and she with him, and that chain of events sets up Anakin’s downfall and Palp’s ascent. When you have a supernatural “force” that can see into the future, you have some rather large plot armour there. Is it airtight? No. But it’s enough to get away with it, for me anyways. Of course you could say, if Palpatine could see into the future why doesn’t he prevent his death? Well I guess you could say, maybe he did if you take the sequels as canon. But I take Luke’s “Your over confidence is your weakness” as the explanation. Once he got his Throne he became complacent. Circling back to The Dark Knight, they have a moment where Gordon is told the DNA of Harvey Dent, a judge and the mayor was found on a playing card. Gordon deduces it’s the Joker targeting those people. Except that’s not how DNA evidence works. It doesn’t magically tell you who it belongs to, you’d have to test it against those samples to get a match. That’s an important detail for a crime drama. That alone doesn’t ruin the movie but example after example and example does. Naïve Old Fart and Tom Guernsey 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,550 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 Yes! Yes! To @Mr. Gitz you listen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 31 minutes ago, Mr. Gitz said: There’s a word I like to use for movies that have plot logic that isn’t 100 % solid but work non the less and the Star Wars movies are terrific examples of this done right. That word is “verisimilitude”. Star Wars movies all have plot logic that you can nit pick to death. These movies are all based on the Saturday matinee serials, but updated a bit for a more modern audience. The plot works just enough and makes just enough sense that it works for me. Yes when you pull apart Palpatines plan…it’s not exactly without some issues. But that’s ok. Because the reality of the movie, the verisimilitude, is never broken. To go a bit off topic, one of the reasons I have a problem with a movie like The Dark Knight, is because the Jokers plan makes absolutely zero sense and is achieved by a insanely contrived plot. BUT. The difference between ATOC & say The Dark Knight is in their verisimilitude. The Dark Knight wants to be taken super seriously as a crime drama. I believe “Heat” was in influence Nolan was aiming for. So when the movie cheats at things to make the plot move forward, for example, not understanding how DNA evidence works or having a finger print on a bullet despite bullets having casings. Nolan wants us to take this world seriously. It’s not a heightened reality like Tim Burton utilized in his Batman movies. So when Nolan cheats at details like that, despite it being a Batman movie, he is breaking his established verisimilitude. Star Wars is not trying to be a realistic super serious movie. Now that doesn’t mean one can excuse blatant plot holes or massive leaps in logic but nothing you wrote is breaking any of the saga rules or reality. Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He’s an evil space Wizard. It’s established in the saga that using the force can help you see into the future. So one could explain Palpatines plan in that all the failures and missteps were necessary to get to the end result. Had Padme been killed any earlier, Anakin doesn’t fall in love with her and she with him, and that chain of events sets up Anakin’s downfall and Palp’s ascent. When you have a supernatural “force” that can see into the future, you have some rather large plot armour there. Is it airtight? No. But it’s enough to get away with it, for me anyways. Of course you could say, if Palpatine could see into the future why doesn’t he prevent his death? Well I guess you could say, maybe he did if you take the sequels as canon. But I take Luke’s “Your over confidence is your weakness” as the explanation. Once he got his Throne he became complacent. Circling back to The Dark Knight, they have a moment where Gordon is told the DNA of Harvey Dent, a judge and the mayor was found on a playing card. Gordon deduces it’s the Joker targeting those people. Except that’s not how DNA evidence works. It doesn’t magically tell you who it belongs to, you’d have to test it against those samples to get a match. That’s an important detail for a crime drama. That alone doesn’t ruin the movie but example after example and example does. See, this is interesting because it sounds like we watch movies much the same way but you seem to give a lot of leeway towards the Prequels where as I see no reason to You are correct, what I was talking about was the verisimilitude of Attack of the Clones. That's a verisimilitude informed by the Original Trilogy, which I'm sure you'd agree would be reasonable given they belong to the same saga, and I am quite confident in saying that neither of the movies in it have a plot as broken as Attack of the Clones. If you would like to push back against that then be my guest as I think it would be a conversation worth having, but I do not think I am holding the Prequels to an unfair standard if it's the same standard to which the Original Trilogy clears You insinuate that AOTC doesn't want to be taken super seriously or present a realistic world yet I would argue that more so than the Original Trilogy that's exactly what these movies are trying to do. They wouldn't bring political conflict to the forefront otherwise, and since it is at the forefront naturally it invites more scrutiny. If you think AOTC doesn't want to be this adventurous yet serious and profound political thriller that focuses on conspiracy at the heart of the Republic and the rising threat of totalitarianism, then the movie has clearly failed at its goals. The Prequels as a whole go for a very different tone than the Original Trilogy, yet the grand irony is that the Original Trilogy presents a world with higher verisimilitude partly as a consequence of what it decides to put at the forefront Since you appealed to breaking saga rules or 'reality' (really not sure what you mean by that) as the only proof of diminishing verisimilitude, I want to counter your defense that Palpatine using the Force to see into the future invalidates everything I said. The Original Trilogy establishes that insight into the future through the Force is fleeting and unreliable, even for the Sith. Palpatine keeps claiming that 'everything is proceeding as he has foreseen' yet clearly he never expected Vader to betray him out of love for his son, or else he wouldn't have put himself in that position. I don't think the Original Trilogy is saying that the Force only shows you what you want to see either, because Luke most certainly did not want to see a vision of himself as Vader, nor his friends in mortal danger. The 'rule' (a term I use very loosely because the Force is not a hard magic system which makes it a very cheap narrative device when it's used as a quick fix writing solution because it technically has no limits) is that connection to the Force allows you insights into the future but they are out of context or incomplete and thus unreliable. Therefore, even within the established verisimilitude of the Force, claiming that Palpatine has clarity of the future so perfect that it makes all of his actions literally pre-determined, is a direct contradiction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gitz 85 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 8 hours ago, DarthDementous said: See, this is interesting because it sounds like we watch movies much the same way but you seem to give a lot of leeway towards the Prequels where as I see no reason to You are correct, what I was talking about was the verisimilitude of Attack of the Clones. That's a verisimilitude informed by the Original Trilogy, which I'm sure you'd agree would be reasonable given they belong to the same saga, and I am quite confident in saying that neither of the movies in it have a plot as broken as Attack of the Clones. If you would like to push back against that then be my guest as I think it would be a conversation worth having, but I do not think I am holding the Prequels to an unfair standard if it's the same standard to which the Original Trilogy clears You insinuate that AOTC doesn't want to be taken super seriously or present a realistic world yet I would argue that more so than the Original Trilogy that's exactly what these movies are trying to do. They wouldn't bring political conflict to the forefront otherwise, and since it is at the forefront naturally it invites more scrutiny. If you think AOTC doesn't want to be this adventurous yet serious and profound political thriller that focuses on conspiracy at the heart of the Republic and the rising threat of totalitarianism, then the movie has clearly failed at its goals. The Prequels as a whole go for a very different tone than the Original Trilogy, yet the grand irony is that the Original Trilogy presents a world with higher verisimilitude partly as a consequence of what it decides to put at the forefront Since you appealed to breaking saga rules or 'reality' (really not sure what you mean by that) as the only proof of diminishing verisimilitude, I want to counter your defense that Palpatine using the Force to see into the future invalidates everything I said. The Original Trilogy establishes that insight into the future through the Force is fleeting and unreliable, even for the Sith. Palpatine keeps claiming that 'everything is proceeding as he has foreseen' yet clearly he never expected Vader to betray him out of love for his son, or else he wouldn't have put himself in that position. I don't think the Original Trilogy is saying that the Force only shows you what you want to see either, because Luke most certainly did not want to see a vision of himself as Vader, nor his friends in mortal danger. The 'rule' (a term I use very loosely because the Force is not a hard magic system which makes it a very cheap narrative device when it's used as a quick fix writing solution because it technically has no limits) is that connection to the Force allows you insights into the future but they are out of context or incomplete and thus unreliable. Therefore, even within the established verisimilitude of the Force, claiming that Palpatine has clarity of the future so perfect that it makes all of his actions literally pre-determined, is a direct contradiction You are misunderstanding the fundamental difference between the light and the dark side. The Dark Side uses the force for power and ambition and control. So because Yoda says through the force you can see the future, but “always in motion is the future” that’s Yoda’s philosophy of how it works. It’s not a means to an end like Palpatine who probably views the future seeing ability differently than Yoda, philosophically. it’s like force lightning. Jedi do not use force lightning(in the films). So Palpatine’s future seeing abilities are en extension of the philosophy difference in how the Jedi & Sith use the force. That’s actually a tie in to Anakin’s downfall and his seduction. “There are things about the force they are not telling me” he says And I think you might be misreading the scene in the cave where Luke sees himself as Vader. That was a test, not a vision of the future. The cave is some sort of repository of the dark side of the force. Yoda was testing him. He took his weapons, igniting his lightsaber before Vader did. Yoda tells him the force is used, for what? “Knowledge and defence, never attack”. What happens in the fight with Vader in Cloud City? He strikes first. And he loses. And again, why doesn’t Palpatine foresee Vader’s turn. Yoda gives you the answer. “Always in motion is the future”. Palpatine relies on his ability to see and predict the future. It gives him confidence. He’s over confident. What does Luke say is Palpatines weakness? And again. The force is one of those unknowable things. Which makes it a great plot device. We don’t know what Palpatine can truly do. Have you seen the Clone Wars show? Palpatine exhibits some weird mystic abilities we’ve never seen before in his final confrontation with Darth Maul and his brother. I don’t buy that because the prequels feature politics that they aren’t trying to be anything more than the Saturday matinee serial Lucas was always paying homage to. Because a movie features politics doesn’t make it political per se. It’s just one element in a tapestry full of various film genre tropes & traditions. It’s a love story, a tragedy, a swashbuckling adventure, a fantasy and has elements of politics to the story. Adding that one element doesn’t make it anything more than it already was. As for the contention that the original trilogy doesn’t have the same potential plot issues of the prequels. Let’s examine that. two droids escape with Death Star plans, land on a planet and just happen to be taken to someone that knows the very person that Princess Leia is looking for, what’s more is that person just happen to know Luke’s father, have a special relationship with him? So out of all the planets in all the galaxy their escape pod landed on the right one. and then ok they make it to that planet(which Princess Leia wasn’t even looking for. She wasn’t trying to get to Tatooine) and they just happen to land close enough to a settlement that blah blah blah you see where this is going? Now. Everything I said there could probably be explained somehow. But it’s stretching the limit between coincidence and contrived. I have zero problems with it. But you asked for an example and I gave you one. I can explain all the issues you bring up with the prequels to my own satisfaction within the verisimilitude that is set up in the original films. The reality of that universe. That being said, the prequels are not perfect films. Not by a long shot. Anakin’s turn to the Dark Side still feels a bit abrupt and Palpatine naming him “Darth Vader” just seems random and of no significance. Some of the other issues I’ve had have been addressed in the Clone Wars series(like who Syfo Dias is and how exactly the Order 66 works with the clones). Anyways, overall I thoroughly enjoy the prequels. Those 6 films feel as one story to me. I wish the Disney films did as well. Now those? Those have issues I can’t overlook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 7 minutes ago, Mr. Gitz said: (which Princess Leia wasn’t even looking for. She wasn’t trying to get to Tatooine) Uhh then why was she sending a message directly to Obi-Wan? ThePenitentMan1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gitz 85 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Holko said: Uhh then why was she sending a message directly to Obi-Wan? Because their ship was attacked boarded. That was a last ditch plan. That was not her plan all along. They were heading to the rebellion HQ. Now it could be she realized “oh shit. Where are we? Oh! That’s Tatooine! I know someone that lives there who can help us” but again, that’s not specifically laid out in the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Holko 9,529 Posted May 30, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted May 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, Mr. Gitz said: They were heading to the rebellion HQ. Now it could be she realized “oh shit. Where are we? Oh! That’s Tatooine! I know someone that lives there who can help us” Or they found out they were being followed and changed course towards an ally instead of leading the Empire back to their base. Something not being specifically laid out in the film but nothing contradicting it, leaving space for implication because there's no space or need for specific explanations, and somebody looking at that as a hole - is not the same as specifically laid out things in-film or between the current and previous or following films not making a lick of sense. DarthDementous, ThePenitentMan1 and enderdrag64 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gitz 85 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 1 minute ago, Holko said: Or they found out they were being followed and changed course towards an ally instead of leading the Empire back to their base. Something not being specifically laid out in the film but nothing contradicting it, leaving space for implication because there's no space or need for specific explanations, and somebody looking at that as a hole - is not the same as specifically laid out things in-film or between the current and previous or following films not making a lick of sense. Sorry I was wrong, they were heading to Alderaan not the rebellion HQ. They would have no reason to change course since they were under the guise of a diplomatic mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,302 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 I remember renting this movie, watching it twice and drawing the final battle as a kid. Last time I saw it with someone else who hadn't seen it I was very amused throughout. I don't understand why these are being vindicated today, there's nothing to it, beyond maybe attempting to be a tad more original than the original movies. On 17/05/2022 at 8:57 AM, Naïve Old Fart said: SPIDER-MAN, and SPIDER-MAN 2, are good films, but SPIDER-MAN 3 is pretty silly. I feel like Spider-Man 1 has some parts which are executed correctly, but has aged terribly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted May 30, 2022 Share Posted May 30, 2022 @Mr. Gitz I’m disappointed because in your responding to what I’ve said you’ve removed all the nuance out of the points I made You also keep contradicting yourself when it comes to the Palpatine has perfect clarity of the future defence, you can’t acknowledge that Yoda says the future is always in motion, and that Palpatine didn’t foresee Vader betraying him, whilst also maintaining that Palpatine foresaw literally everything in the Prequels to the point he was making pre-determined actions. I also want to point out how that argument could be used to justify literally anything he does in the film, it’s along the lines of ‘well it happened in the script so it’s correct’ That was a really poor attempt to critique A New Hope. Notice how in my criticism of Attack of the Clones I didn’t bring up coincidence at all. It’s funny to have you lecture me on the genre specific verisimilitude of movies and then critique the inciting incident of a space fantasy for being too coincidental. I can tell you didn’t give it a genuine go though because you even admitted that there were explanations that countered what you said. The issues I have with Attack of the Clones are issues because they have no possible explanation in the film I was being quite lenient with your initial counter but truth be told even if it didn’t defeat itself, it doesn’t engage with the point I made at all. I didn’t even talk about Palpatine’s access to information, I said his motives were contradictory based on the possibilities presented and what I reason to be his actions. You also didn’t address anything I said in addition to Palpatine 7 hours ago, Mr. Gitz said: Sorry I was wrong, they were heading to Alderaan not the rebellion HQ. They would have no reason to change course since they were under the guise of a diplomatic mission. We don’t know if Tattooine is along the way to Alderaan, and even if it isn’t we also don’t know how long the Tantive IV has been pursued to be able to say it didn’t change course. The reason to change course is being attacked by the Empire and the threat of being captured along with the plans, hence divert to Tattooine and send the droids down in an escape pod to find the ally that lives there Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 And maybe they weren't even heading to Alderaan, Leia just needed some excuse to tell Vader. 11 hours ago, Brónach said: I feel like Spider-Man 1 has some parts which are executed correctly, but has aged terribly. That Koepp script... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 51 minutes ago, Holko said: And maybe they weren't even heading to Alderaan, Leia just needed some excuse to tell Vader. That Koepp script... They were definitely heading to Alderaan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 Oops, yeah. 3PO and R2 definitely don't just happen on Luke though, they wander around unsuccessfully, then are picked up by Jawas and taken to probably the only human lifeforms for miles and miles and miles who of course know one of the only other human for miles and miles and miles. DarthDementous 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,550 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 If the Tantive IV was en route to Alderaan, why did it emerge from hyperspace over Tattooine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,529 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 Did it? We just see it flying over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raiders of the SoundtrArk 2,433 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 23 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said: If the Tantive IV was en route to Alderaan, why did it emerge from hyperspace over Tattooine? Perhaps an engine failure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 4 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said: If the Tantive IV was en route to Alderaan, why did it emerge from hyperspace over Tattooine? I don't know where you got the idea that it emerged from hyperspace there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,950 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 The answers to questions like that is “so that we’d have a movie.” Naïve Old Fart and mstrox 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gitz 85 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 @DarthDementous Are you purposefully being obtuse? You are literally misunderstanding the difference between the light & the dark side and how it pertains to each other’s philosophy. You are claiming things not found in anything in Yoda says. He says it’s “difficult to see” the future. Notice he does not say “impossible” or that it’s “fleeting” or whatever other terms you’ve invented to try to prove your point that I’ve now shown to be moot. And I think you over estimate your nuance. If there were any in your remarks, I would have addressed them. as for the issues I brought up in A New Hope, notice how you now move the goal posts. “Oh wait!” You now say. “I didn’t mean that sort of plot issues I meant a very specific kind”. Plot issues are plot issues. My point was to raise the notion that one *could* find these problems in any Star Wars film. Contrivances, coincidences, plot logic. Whatever. It all falls under the verisimilitude I brought up earlier and the leeway fantasy films have with these sorts of things. Your problem with the film is with a character who can use a supernatural ability of which you clearly do not understand, and too be fair, that’s by design. “The force” allows for quite a bit of latitude when it comes to what is or what is not possible. Again. There are things the dark side can or will do that Jedi do not or can not do. Ultimately the good guys win. So we know Yoda was correct. So everything proceeded as the emperor had foreseen. Until Luke came along. That’s the downfall of the emperor. Yoda, a light side force user, would not use the “future seeing” ability the same way Palpatine does. I point to force lightning as an example of the difference between the two philosophies. And by the way I found your “Leniency” comment amusing. Thank you. It’s been awhile since someone has been so utterly patronizing & condescending in a Star Wars conversation. Such trifles will always show one to be desperate. They know they are wrong or misguided & so they start with the ad hominem. I salute you. I’d say “well done”, but that wouldn’t be true. “lenient”. Lol. This fuckin’ guy. 9 hours ago, Holko said: Oops, yeah. 3PO and R2 definitely don't just happen on Luke though, they wander around unsuccessfully, then are picked up by Jawas and taken to probably the only human lifeforms for miles and miles and miles who of course know one of the only other human for miles and miles and miles. Again the point is one *could* find issue with this. there are many issues like this. Why don’t the imperial officers shoot down the escape pod? Because no life forms are aboard? What kind of logic is that? It’s an escape pod. Plans are missing that were on that ship. or in Empire. The At.At can only fire in one direction. And the ships all fly directly at them instead of, oh, I don’t know, coming at them from behind… Why does Vader disable the hyper drive? Why not disable the actual engine? One allows them the possibility to escape, the other does not. Or in ROTJ The emperor gives the the rebels the actual plans for the Death Star. Why? Why not just give them…oh I don’t know…fake plans? Just incase?(one could say this ties into the whole “over confidence” thing). again I could go on and on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,550 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 3 hours ago, DarthDementous said: I don't know where you got the idea that it emerged from hyperspace there Ok, maybe it didn't, but, given the size of the Tantive IV, compared to the size of the cruiser, and its (very easy) ability to overtake and overwhelm the Tantive, I'd guess that it came out of hyperspace fairly near to Tattooine. 7 hours ago, May the Force be with You said: Perhaps an engine failure... Yes, er...a boating accident oops, engine failure. 8 hours ago, Holko said: Did it? We just see it flying over. I'm sure it wasn't calling in for a fill-up, and a Big Gulp. It seems to me that the ship was on its way to Tattooine, because the crew knew that it wouldn't (for whatever reason) be able to make it to Alderaan. Geez Louise, where's Mattris, when you need him? 19 minutes ago, Mr. Gitz said: @DarthDementous This fuckin’ guy. Uncool, bro. We might insult other people, but we don't bring down our own. Do you know the one about shitting on your own doorstep? Please find a more mature way to voice your criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van_Etten 111 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 Quote Why does Vader disable the hyper drive? Why not disable the actual engine? One allows them the possibility to escape, the other does not. The plan is to track the Falcon to the rebel base and destroy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Gitz 85 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 1 minute ago, Naïve Old Fart said: Ok, maybe it didn't, but, given the size of the Tantive IV, compared to the size of the cruiser, and its (very easy) ability to overtake and overwhelm the Tantive, I'd guess that came out of hyperspace fairly near to Tattooine. Yes, er...a boating accident oops, engine failure. I'm sure it wasn't calling in for a fill-up, and a Big Gulp. It seems to me that the ship was on its way to Tattooine, because the crew knew that it wouldn't (for whatever reason) be able to make it to Alderaan. Geez Louise, where's Mattris, when you need him? Uncool, bro. We might insult other people, but we don't bring our own down. Do you know the one about shitting on your own doorstep? Please find a more mature way to voice your criticism. How is that an insult? “This fuckin guy” is not a serious response. I thought that was obvious(have you never seen “The Sopranos”?). To be fair it’s not anything more than saying “I can’t believe you said that”. It’s a swear word. We are all adults(I think?). But fair enough. As a gentleman I shall take back said “fuckin” and merely say “This guy”. Cool? Cool. apologies to any offended. I didn’t mean to give anyone the vapours. Naïve Old Fart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,550 Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 I suppose that it highlights the (often extreme) differences between the spoken word, and the written word. My apologies if my reply was a little forceful. I just don't like to see JWfaners having a go at each other, for whatever reason. There's enough shit in the world, without us turning on each other. For the record, I've never seen a single second of THE SOPRANOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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